What warframes need a rework?

[Anti-Incarnon]

I’m personally in favor of reworking frames on the account on them being functionally weird rather than because they’re weak. For example, I really enjoy playing Nyx. She offers a controller/pet style of gameplay and in my opinion has her place in the game despite arguably not being super strong. Inaros getting a rework makes a lot more sense and next in line for me would be Chroma. I’m on the fence about Limbo, since I imagine there are players who love the uniqueness he brings.

Not every frame has to be an overpowered killing machine. If they offer something unique then they are an equally viable addition to the roster. Let us who enjoy roleplaying and using off-meta frames have our fun.

So for me, Chroma, and perhaps Loki. I haven’t used him much, but I don’t see him bringing a «fantasy» to the game that wouldn’t have players rather gravitate towards Ash or Ivara.

 

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

9) Culervo - He is borderline ok, since he is a niche for…heavy attack enjoyers??? Seen any?

That would just imply people have no clue how to play him. You can completely skip using HA on him and he still wrecks just the same with melee. He is a very mobile, extremely durable over the top melee frame with ways to force slash and access to insane damage spread (if needed). Obviously there is nothing wrong with building him for HA either, since that is also a fun and very effective build, but it simply isnt needed if it isnt your cup of tea.

I've played both ways with him aswell as full ranged, all of it works well. Currently I'm running a regular melee build, and thanks to his passive there is no reason to not use a HA when needed. And with Melee Influence I will run atleast a single electric mod, so if I dont have a riven, or my riven doesnt have some efficiency I'll just run Energy Focus. Unless the weapon I use comes with bonus melee efficiency. And with daggers constantly flying and hitting targets, the slight loss of combo will be regained the next moment either through those daggers or follow up melee hits.

I'd say that right now Kullervo is probably the perfect frame since he can be used for practically any playstyle with a great outcome.

 

8 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

Caliban should be priority, followed by Inaros, Banshee, Nyx and Loki. 

Don't think he needs a full-on rework, just tweaking how his element infusion works so it feels less clunky to use.

Voruna passive setup for his elements would be best.

Holding a single button applies that element and it stay permanently.

Holding another single element replaces the current element with that.

Holding two elements at once replaces current element with whatever combined element the two held buttons would combine.

Simple and easy on the fly applications without a need to constantly re-infuse before casts.

 

Edited February 10 by SneakyErvin

[Tiltskillet]

3 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

playstyle: Kullervo is great in melee, but not everybody likes melee, some people prefer guns and the joy of mowing down mobs with high-powered ranged weaponry. to that end, those people won't pick Kullervo, now will they? they'll take a frame that buffs their guns, such as Harrow or Rhino.

They probably do.  But they don't know how great Collective Curse can be for ranged weapon play.  It's particularly fun with sniper rifles since it propagates their combo, not just melee combo.

[Xzorn]

3 hours ago, Aldain said:

Just saying, this is half of the reason why Loki has gone unattended for so long and is part of why so many people aren't agreeing with your list, the other half are the now hilariously silent "Loki Master Race" players who just said everyone was using him wrong. Half to 3/4ths of his kit are staggeringly useless in modern Warframe (and were just as useless even 3 years ago), there's nothing that Loki does that other frames don't do better.

Most frames have more than one thing that they bring to the table, even freaking Excalibur has an AoE stun that is reliable if basic as it works on everything that isn't outright immune to abilities, Loki's Radial Disarm (an ability that costs 100 base energy for the record) gets worse every time DE introduces something that can't be disarmed by comparision.

Excusing Loki's poor state as a player side issue is not the best take imo.

 

I think it might be more that DE never finished stealth gameplay and so when the Focus system came out DE went on a rampage.
If I'm not mistaken Ocatvia was the last perma invis frame they ever made and she seems immune to nerfs due to community content.

The Loki Master Race had good reason for their judgement. Esp after the addition of Radiating Disarm. DE just no longer builds the game for stealth. Many enemies ignore it or have at some point like Infested Osprey, Nox, Sentients, Razorback, Half Fortuna, Profit Taker, etc. Before, I use to primarily play Nyx but Loki was on par and easier to play. Radiation status has always been key to Loki, Vauban and Nyx. They took it away from two and now look where they stand as CC frames.

Stealth x8 multiplier is no joke as damage boost but now a Sentient might take a disco dance on your head at random.

Loki's life since 2016...

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Voruna passive setup for his elements would be best.

Holding a single button applies that element and it stay permanently.

Holding another single element replaces the current element with that.

Holding two elements at once replaces current element with whatever combined element the two held buttons would combine.

Simple and easy on the fly applications without a need to constantly re-infuse before casts.

Yeah, this would improve Lavos' gameplay immensely. 

[Aldain]

34 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

I think it might be more that DE never finished stealth gameplay and so when the Focus system came out DE went on a rampage.
If I'm not mistaken Ocatvia was the last perma invis frame they ever made and she seems immune to nerfs due to community content.

The Loki Master Race had good reason for their judgement. Esp after the addition of Radiating Disarm. DE just no longer builds the game for stealth. Many enemies ignore it or have at some point like Infested Osprey, Nox, Sentients, Razorback, Half Fortuna, Profit Taker, etc. Before, I use to primarily play Nyx but Loki was on par and easier to play. Radiation status has always been key to Loki, Vauban and Nyx. They took it away from two and now look where they stand as CC frames.

Stealth x8 multiplier is no joke as damage boost but now a Sentient might take a disco dance on your head at random.

Loki's life since 2016...

Fair enough, but as it currently stands Loki is playing checkers while everyone else is playing WH40k or something.

And that still doesn't help Switch Teleport, which could honestly be converted to a Hold cast on his 1 and I don't think anyone would even notice it, Decoy also is still in the running for "Most thoroughly murdered Warframe ability" from what I can gather...though I'm pretty sure I joined the game after they mauled it.

It's just tragic to me that I've built a Loki Prime through dumb luck in casual relic cracking and it's just agonizing to play him because I can't help but think "Man almost any other frame would be performing better", but hey, maybe that's a me issue.

...Still think Switch Teleport being a standalone ability is embarrassing though, especially when we have Kullervo's 1st ability rolling around.

[Tiltskillet]

45 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Radiation status has always been key to Loki, Vauban and Nyx. They took it away from two and now look where they stand as CC frames.

Stealth x8 multiplier is no joke as damage boost but now a Sentient might take a disco dance on your head at random.

But rad status chaos is also one of main reasons for him getting ganked by random AoE, so how do you reconcile those two statements?

Personally I enjoy the chaos of Irradiating Disarm with Loki, and I sometimes wish he had more rad in his kit.  But I like the risk that comes with it too.

 

[UnstarPrime]

14 hours ago, PoppyPrince said:

i called "weak" only a few of them, my much more constant question was: where are they? Famous Gara always gets furious protection in any thread, however gets 0 attention in game. I wanted to write this thread a month ago, so i started to pay double attention which frames people take with me on sorties/relics/archon hunts and etc. Moreover i was always curious about my teams' choices because i don't mind being a teamplayer and complimenting my comrades' abilities, so i have a very clear year worth impression in my head about "common" choices.

In that case, you've made the mistake of conflating two very different ideas:

1. Needing a rework
2. Being underused

These are not the same thing.  They have different causes and require different solutions.

[Xzorn]

40 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

But rad status chaos is also one of main reasons for him getting ganked by random AoE, so how do you reconcile those two statements?

Personally I enjoy the chaos of Irradiating Disarm with Loki, and I sometimes wish he had more rad in his kit.  But I like the risk that comes with it too.

 

 

True. I'm considering when I used to play these frames. Not now where everything is just smashing stats against your problems.

Previously Disarm for both Loki and Nyx would have solved crossfire issues. Getting a firm grasp of the aggro distance of Chaos' increased threat was very important for her. For Nyx and Vauban Rad status was more specific to Nullifiers. If you can Pacifying Bolts which has always been bugged it could stun a Napalm which were a plague.

With the addition of two bad mechanics, Eximus Overguard and Shield Gating. The value is heavily reduced to nearly pointless.
Sadly neither mechanic can be removed/fixed without the other. Least that's how it feels. I can't even imagine how Limbo plays now.

I've played Loki 3 times since I came back and Nyx 0. If DE wants the "skill" of the game to just be buff upkeep and shooting in the general direction of enemies then so be it. That was why I always liked Nyx over Loki despite their CC performance being the same. She had to use more of her kit and took more knowledge to play.

Fixing Loki's Decoy would be a tremendous help for him and far as I'm concerned totally revert Nyx's rework and she'll be better at least.
Nyx around 20% Normal + Prime followed by Loki are still my most used frames though I didn't really use Loki till Radiating Disarm.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, Skoomaseller said:

Yeah, this would improve Lavos' gameplay immensely. 

With respect, I beg to differ.
That idea is fodder for an augment(at best), not a change to Lavos' mechanics.
Lavos is an alchemy frame. The intent is mixing elements to achieve an effect on demand.
Each ability already comes with its' own element and the freedom to change on the fly is (along with cd management) the mechanic in place for that frame and, frankly , is one of the things that makes Lavos as engaging as he is to play.

If a player desires a specific element for a mission or mob, they have 3 whole weapon slots for hard-coded elemental effects to choose from.

I do understand that you and , clearly, @SneakyErvin feel the frame is clunky but would posit that its' moreso a sign that the frame isn't for you since you don't enjoy the mechanic in play.

I, for example, detest Octavia because the frame's mechanics drives me bonkers. As such, I do not play Octavia.
Likewise, I do not lobby for changes simply because I do not like the frame's mechanics. 

Every frame isn't for Everybody.

[TARINunit9]

17 hours ago, Aldain said:

Why Inaros was the priority before any of these three I'll never know, at least Inaros was moderately tanky and had pocket sand...

Because Inaros functionally has ZERO abilities. Even Pocket Sand has fallen off with Overguard now being a thing. Inaros isn't a frame, he's a walking health bar. That is far more unhealthy than Loki who mostly functions in older content most of the time.

16 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

It's hard to explain how bad Mirage is now compared to her release. 

Luckily she's already been confirmed for partial rework

[Joezone619]

Nyx (severely outdated)
Limbo (too much banishing, not enough abilities that do something else)
Inaros (hes next up anyways)
Frost (only snow globe and avalanche have stood the test of time)
Valkyr (1st is outdated, 3rd is very limited, and 4th has horrible stance combos)
 

[Xzorn]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Luckily she's already been confirmed for partial rework

 

The only issue is the designs they've added have made the spectrum of "things that work" far more narrow.

As Tiltskillet put my comparison in check. Things that worked fine no longer do because of certain enemy designs.

I recall an event years back were enemies had a Tonkor and the community flipped out. Now I see Shield Lancers with it all the time.
That's an awful enemy design. You can't hear or see it fire. Just the impact. Scorchers were another one and they're all over now too.

They don't seem to care cuz of these crutches they've made like Shield Gating and massive eHP but it also limits what works for frame designs.

[(PSN)Sentiel]

Putting aside the bait Warframes and Inaros, who is getting a rework soon, I'd like for Chroma and Nyx to be reworked since I like their themes but not how they work. That said, I'm worried I would like their rework even less.

For example, Hydroid got a nice rework and he's very good now but I don't like the feeling of constantly having to keep his Plunder active and always thinking about when and where to use it next to maximise the effect. I'd say it's even worse then Chroma's Vex Armor, which doesn't have the risk of giving me a decreased effect if I refresh it. 

[(XBOX)INe Saninus]

The reason that these threads never go anywhere is because everyone has very different opinions on what needs a rework and what doesn't.

 

I've spent the last 3 nights play Loki for nostalgia.

I subsumed Ensnare over his 3.

Rotation is: 

-Cast 4. This forces most of the map into melee so they all start rushing you.

-Cast your 1. This allows you to choose exactly where your Ensnare target will be. Also because everything has been disarmed, your 1's survivability goes up.

-Cast 3 and let it grab for a few seconds.

-Nuke everything with weapons of your choosing.

I've been running Paris Prime, Lato Vandal, and Anku.

 

With Catalysing Shield and Brief respite, my cloak will reset my shields if I take damage. While cloak I can reset with another disarm.

 

Easy. Powerful. Survivable.

Not meant for boss fights, but easily clears most content.

 

Now, does his kit need some touching up?

Absolutely. His 1 and 3 need some love.

...but he is FAR from weak or useless.

 

 

...and whoever mentioned Kullervo in this thread:

Wtf, bro?!

Top tier damage, clear times, survivability, mobility, and great at both melee and gun play not enough for you all...?!!

 

[Skoomaseller]

2 hours ago, Rakosta_Kai said:

With respect, I beg to differ.
That idea is fodder for an augment(at best), not a change to Lavos' mechanics.
Lavos is an alchemy frame. The intent is mixing elements to achieve an effect on demand.
Each ability already comes with its' own element and the freedom to change on the fly is (along with cd management) the mechanic in place for that frame and, frankly , is one of the things that makes Lavos as engaging as he is to play.

If a player desires a specific element for a mission or mob, they have 3 whole weapon slots for hard-coded elemental effects to choose from.

I do understand that you and , clearly, @SneakyErvin feel the frame is clunky but would posit that its' moreso a sign that the frame isn't for you since you don't enjoy the mechanic in play.

I, for example, detest Octavia because the frame's mechanics drives me bonkers. As such, I do not play Octavia.
Likewise, I do not lobby for changes simply because I do not like the frame's mechanics. 

Every frame isn't for Everybody.

i mean not having to imbue elements after every cast wont change too drastically his mechanics, it's still there. just that if you want to use the same element in a row you dont have to keep casting.

if you're swapping between multiple elements this shouldn't affect you since it'll remain the same for the most part. you are still able to swap elements on the fly. 

[Xzorn]

26 minutes ago, (PSN)Sentiel said:

Putting aside the bait Warframes and Inaros, who is getting a rework soon, I'd like for Chroma and Nyx to be reworked since I like their themes but not how they work. That said, I'm worried I would like their rework even less.

 

Given Nyx is my highest in mission time and Chroma is my 3rd. I could give it a try but I feel like few people care about other's rework ideas.

[Arbitrary]

2 hours ago, Xzorn said:

I recall an event years back were enemies had a Tonkor and the community flipped out. Now I see Shield Lancers with it all the time.

Because Nightwatch Reavers (the enemy in question) used an actual copy of the player Tonkor. They were level 40 in the mission, which meant they did 3.5k damage before crits.
Elite Shield Lancers are strong, but not "650 base damage before scaling"-strong. There's also the fact that the event was 7 years ago. Since then we've had more upgrades to survivability.

[Xzorn]

9 minutes ago, Arbitrary said:

Because Nightwatch Reavers (the enemy in question) used an actual copy of the player Tonkor. They were level 40 in the mission, which meant they did 3.5k damage before crits.
Elite Shield Lancers are strong, but not "650 base damage before scaling"-strong. There's also the fact that the event was 7 years ago. Since then we've had more upgrades to survivability.

 

That's exactly why the game is so patchwork though. DE has notoriously paid very little attention to scaling.
Do you happen to remember old Napalms? One-shot from around a corner from a hit that was 10m away.

The one actual problem. Enemy Exponential Damage Scaling is still going to result in the exact same outcome.
You might see it in-game. You might not but it's there. Kuva Shield Lancer Marelok was a monster at level 300.

Numerically defense actually hasn't changed much. What's changed are the "Free Fail Passes" like Overguard damage overflow and Shield Gating.

We're talking about how to make frames with low defense work and it can't with stuff like a random immune Tonkor shot you can't hear.

[Aldain]

1 hour ago, Xzorn said:

Given Nyx is my highest in mission time and Chroma is my 3rd. I could give it a try but I feel like few people care about other's rework ideas.

I think the biggest hurdle for Nyx at the moment is Overguard, since the things that you'd probably want her abilities to effect the most are flat out immune to them because of it.

Which yeah, is kind of a universal problem for CC frames at the moment, but stands out more for Nyx since that's basically all she does.

Off the top of my head I'd at least like to think that if her Psychic Bolts "jumped" to a new target after the current one is killed (up to a limit of course, maybe with slightly reduced power if that's too much) that would help there.

Wouldn't know what to do with Mind Control or Absorb, Enemy on Enemy damage is an ongoing issue and Absorb...I just don't know what to think about it.

[Tiltskillet]

7 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Which yeah, is kind of a universal problem for CC frames at the moment, but stands out more for Nyx since that's basically all she does.

Not quite universal...some frames are lucky enough to have CC abilities that still do something through Overguard.  Nyx doesn't; at least not directly.  One could stretch the definition of crowd control close to its maximum and say Chaos does help some versus Eximus as long as there are normal units around, and call Mind Control a very soft form of CC.  

I don't play Nyx, but if I did I'd be very tempted to inject Breach Surge if I was going to focus on CC.  (Rather than Absorb shenanigans.)

[Arbitrary]

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

You might see it in-game. You might not but it's there. Kuva Shield Lancer Marelok was a monster at level 300.

While the level scaling damage is flawed, you keep pulling extreme outliers. Kuva/Tusk Shield Lancers are likely using the wrong version of Marelok. The AI version is supposed to be base 15 damage, but the Kuva/Tusk versions do 80 (Potentially caused by incorrectly being assigned a player copy then applying the PvP multiplier of 0.5).

25 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Numerically defense actually hasn't changed much. What's changed are the "Free Fail Passes" like Overguard damage overflow and Shield Gating.

We're talking about how to make frames with low defense work and it can't with stuff like a random immune Tonkor shot you can't hear

"These changes don't count because I say so"
Also numerical defense has changed significantly in the past 7 years. You now have much more potent universal options to buff health, armor, and shields, on top of them just being made stronger overall.

Edited February 10 by Arbitrary

[Xzorn]

45 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I think the biggest hurdle for Nyx at the moment is Overguard, since the things that you'd probably want her abilities to effect the most are flat out immune to them because of it.

Which yeah, is kind of a universal problem for CC frames at the moment, but stands out more for Nyx since that's basically all she does.

Off the top of my head I'd at least like to think that if her Psychic Bolts "jumped" to a new target after the current one is killed (up to a limit of course, maybe with slightly reduced power if that's too much) that would help there.

Wouldn't know what to do with Mind Control or Absorb, Enemy on Enemy damage is an ongoing issue and Absorb...I just don't know what to think about it.

 

Well by DE reasoning. Physic Bolts non-thematically reduces enemy defenses and disables infested auras for a duration, so why not Overguard.

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Xzorn said:

Well by DE reasoning. Physic Bolts non-thematically reduces enemy defenses and disables infested auras for a duration, so why not Overguard.

Spaghetti code would be my guess.

[Pakaku]

23 hours ago, quxier said:

Or you can just slap Equilibrum and melee enemies. Headshots requires some aiming (even minimal) but melee is much easier.

This is true, but it lacks some team support since it only applies to yourself and anyone else who happens to run Equilibrium. But I think it's just that people generally get the impression that Voruna is a melee frame, when she can actually be more versatile than that.