Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[Voltage]

I think it's also worth mentioning that this is way better than Duviri because it's an optional randomization, and you get to pick exactly what loadout you use if you have duplicates. It's not forcing your mod config choices or restricting you from playing at all. 

DE turning Melee Duplicate and Crescendo to a Pseudo-Energize/Grace from back in the day makes for a mode that actually feels rewarding if you can handle it.

Edited February 24 by Voltage

[KIREEK]

I believe they forgot to mention if the choices have a certain weight to it similarly to the helmith system.

Helmith is not trully random, certain warframes appear more frequently than others, the idea was to have players play with less used warframes because they get buffs more often.

I believe this new gamemode will be the same, so expect nyx, hikou, branton, skana and other choices to appear more frequently.

To me it sucks, because i don't grind all the gear available in the game, so i will likely not be able to have all the choices available for weeks, i'll need to wait for that perfect week where the planets line up and the stuff available makes sense for the most part.

But this will only affect the unlock really, because i only care about shards for the most part. So my question is, what is behind the locked section, the one you get unlocked when you use everything that DE wants you to use that week?

Edited February 26 by KIREEK

[quxier]

9 hours ago, SDGDen said:

16 hours ago, quxier said:

I'm tired of recent(ish) "challenges":

- slap more ehp, damage reduction, immortality phase

- random gear

When I beat something with my preferred gear.I feel like I've achieved something. Those kind of things just makes me cheater or playing roulette. It's horrible feeling when you are basically told: "grab everything or it will be bad experience".

sadly, this is the only way DE can actually challenge the players, we all know that if they just allowed you to pick your gear for the highest rewards, people would simply run revenant, press 2 and play the game on baby mode.

First, they can challenge us. Angels were pretty challenging without going full into bullet sponge or stuff.

Secondly, If the answer is "just be immortal" or "big enough gun" then maybe challenge is bad.

8 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I did. Well, to be fair, take a look at the Circuit; how many times has the Stug appeared there? For anyone? I really want to do an @ to everyone that could be on the Forums to ask if any of them have ever had the Stug on the Circuit, because it's got to be a low proportion. Tiny. 1% or less. We've had some definite lower tier weapons, lots of melee that aren't really up to par, lots of secondaries that are usually dual pistols that under-perform, but the actual trash tier? Not so much.

Do you have stug? Sell your stug and you will have it. In my runs I have same 2-3 weapons 70-80% of the time.

5 hours ago, Aerikx said:

I admit, considering all the tears that filled each Archon's personal pools because players couldn't one shot them, scurry off, then shout: "EZ!" without some crazy gymnastics and Loadout shenanigans being performed; I wonder why DE decided to humor the players falsely claiming they wanted a challenge. 

As usual...it was a lie. Players just want easy free loot under a facade of "challenge". 

I honestly think the mode being literally a "Devil's Deal" is genius.

5 hours ago, Aerikx said:

Archons were designed to be actual fights. Damage attenuation made them something players couldn't just burn in seconds, and forced players to actually engage with the enemy. 

5 hours ago, Aerikx said:

However, the bad faith argument was that the attenuation was an insult to player investment in their loadouts. Which really translated to: "We don't actually want to engage with the boss. Just let me one shot it." 

We... maybe not all, want to engage in fights. However we don't want our action dictated by some meter that says how much damage enemy can take. We don't want timegated fights. We don't want to one-shots (on both sides).

If the fight is boring, loot is bad then and you have to repeat it then what do you expect? Not many people want to spend time on such things.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

Seems like alot of people missed the important part of the stream that highlighted that you can ignore the categories that have really bad picks and just use your own.

The chance that you need all 4 picks to be viable is minimal in order to clear the mission. This means you can ignore if several of the categories roll only bad picks, so you grab them as a bonus "dragon key" or something. Leaving you with enough room to skip one of them atleast for a choice fully out of your own desires that can clear the mission.

If it ends up with enough slack in the system to skip 2 of the equipment pulls and still reach max research, well then there is really no way to fail since you'll always have the best frame for the job and the best main weapon you prefer to use otherwise.

And unless this new mode restricts operator use, well... welcome to Circuit operator exploiting 2.0, now with your frame of choice to buff that operators potential to the max when the weapon pulls are bad.

[Waeleto]

I wanna know tho is the pool for items gonna include stuff we own ONLY or will it include stuff we mastered or stuff we don't even own ? and if it's not an owned item will they give us a basic build like the circuit or will we be forced to obtain the item and build it during this week ? 

[Hexerin]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Seems like alot of people missed the important part of the stream that highlighted that you can ignore the categories that have really bad picks and just use your own.

The chance that you need all 4 picks to be viable is minimal in order to clear the mission. This means you can ignore if several of the categories roll only bad picks, so you grab them as a bonus "dragon key" or something. Leaving you with enough room to skip one of them atleast for a choice fully out of your own desires that can clear the mission.

If it ends up with enough slack in the system to skip 2 of the equipment pulls and still reach max research, well then there is really no way to fail since you'll always have the best frame for the job and the best main weapon you prefer to use otherwise.

And unless this new mode restricts operator use, well... welcome to Circuit operator exploiting 2.0, now with your frame of choice to buff that operators potential to the max when the weapon pulls are bad.

To get the full five rewards, you are required to activate all of the modifiers in the left-hand column. That includes using a loadout comprised entirely of the weekly randomized equipment. It isn't optional, and that is why people are criticizing the design of the mode.

The fourth and fifth rewards from the week are locked behind this. You have to do a run with everything enabled (including randomized loadout) to enable this, at which point you have to do a second run with everything (including this) enabled to get the full rewards for the week.

Edited February 24 by Hexerin

[Merkranire]

2 hours ago, Hexerin said:

To get the full five rewards, you are required to activate all of the modifiers in the left-hand column. That includes using a loadout comprised entirely of the weekly randomized equipment. It isn't optional, and that is why people are criticizing the design of the mode.

The fourth and fifth rewards from the week are locked behind this. You have to do a run with everything enabled (including randomized loadout) to enable this, at which point you have to do a second run with everything (including this) enabled to get the full rewards for the week.

Very interesting. I’m curious to see how this plays out

[MutoManiac]

As long as the weapon is decent, it should be easy, especially in a squad. Out of four players, someone is always going to get a frame they can play and carry everyone, so no biggy about the rng. Still I can hear the moaning and see the host migrations already.

[Raikh]

After SP Circuit my hopes for this are well below the ground.

Can it be fun having to play something a bit unconventional, just something different than whatever your comfort or most optimal loadout is? Yes

But there is a worlds difference between having to pick1 out of 3 out of 10-20 frames you have built and invested into and maybe 20-30 of every weapon type and having a selection of 3 things from 50+ Warframes and hundreds of weapons, of which a good amount are not only terrible but certainly aren't worth your time and resources to build and keep in your arsenal.

Warframe isn't build to pick at random from everything it has. Some things are outdated, investing into things and keeping them in your inventory costs resources. And having everything levelled doesn't mean you have everything properly build and can use everything to proper success.

If they require us to pick all the modifiers for maximum rewards this is just gonna be the most awful experience based on weekly rng I have ever seen in a game. Its not even real difficulty. You could have the most meta loadout and breeze through it, but you could also be stuck with only mastery fodder and a Warframe you despise and don't wanna sink time and resources into, why is this a thing?

I'd rather have enemies have 10x to 100x times more health than feel forced to use things I explicitly don't want to play or aren't even meant to be played in that kind of content.

[MutoManiac]

23 minutes ago, Raikh said:

why is this a thing?

DE wants you to forma everything out the wazoo so they can stay in business. In all fairness, Duviri/circuit forced me to appreciate and use a lot more frames and at the same time making me enjoy the game more. Looking forward to the new stuff.

Edited February 24 by MutoManiac

[Raikh]

5 minutes ago, MutoManiac said:

DE wants you to forma everything out the wazoo so they can stay in business.

Before they get me to keep and Forma things that are outclassed in every way and insufferable to use I'd quit the game, which isn't exactly how they keep me giving them money.

6 minutes ago, MutoManiac said:

Duviri/circuit forced me to appreciate and use a lot more frames and at the same time making me enjoy the game more

Same for me but to a limited extent. And by now I see the negatives outweigh the positives. There is plenty of times where I look at my selection and its either do one round and leave to reset or wait till the next spiral. And to an extent I'm willing to expand my roster but there are limits well beyond the scope of the rng involved.
And in Duviri I can atleast reset my selection. They way it sounded for the new game mode thats not possible and its just a fixed 3 options per slot per week.

[quxier]

14 hours ago, Hexerin said:

15 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

To get the full five rewards, you are required to activate all of the modifiers in the left-hand column. That includes using a loadout comprised entirely of the weekly randomized equipment. It isn't optional, and that is why people are criticizing the design of the mode.

The fourth and fifth rewards from the week are locked behind this. You have to do a run with everything enabled (including randomized loadout) to enable this, at which point you have to do a second run with everything (including this) enabled to get the full rewards for the week.

So, if I understand you & devstream:

- at base (no modifiers used) you get 1 reward but without arcanes and tau shards - so it's worse than Netracells - 1/2 of rewards with no tau/arcane

- few modifiers used and you have 2 chance to get shards, melee adapter - it seems less than 4 modifieers (devstream used 4 gear modifiers to get to 3rd reward rank) - so at this point it's you have equal number of rewards (2) but no tau/arcanes SO IT'S STILL WORSE THAN NETRACELLS... and it's  potentially harder

- selecting ~1/2 modifiers (4) give you new reward with chance to get arcane or tau - so at this point it's slightly better but it's potentially much harder

- Selecting most or all give you 4th reward with chance to get tau or arcane - so at this point I would say it's good rewards BUT SO MUCH HARDER

- to get 5th reward you need all mission with all perks - same as above but even more harder

Not to mention it's all RNG. You can get 5x Melee arcane for doing "very very hard" missions (6)!

DE/Pablo says they will change how much point you need. So it might change but I don't think it will change too much. If that's how it will be it will be horrible. Of course Team or RNG may save you.

12 hours ago, MutoManiac said:

12 hours ago, Raikh said:

why is this a thing?

DE wants you to forma everything out the wazoo so they can stay in business. In all fairness, Duviri/circuit forced me to appreciate and use a lot more frames and at the same time making me enjoy the game more. Looking forward to the new stuff.

And I've picked the best option. It's not good? Pffft. Let me Leech on other players. That's how DE intended it to play - so I don't complain, lol. Not that I Leech all the way. I put some Energy or heal/revive teammates. However When I have bad weapon then I can just shoot at spoonges.

I've not forma single gear because Duviri.

[SDGDen]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

So, if I understand you & devstream:

- at base (no modifiers used) you get 1 reward but without arcanes and tau shards - so it's worse than Netracells - 1/2 of rewards with no tau/arcane

- few modifiers used and you have 2 chance to get shards, melee adapter - it seems less than 4 modifieers (devstream used 4 gear modifiers to get to 3rd reward rank) - so at this point it's you have equal number of rewards (2) but no tau/arcanes SO IT'S STILL WORSE THAN NETRACELLS... and it's  potentially harder

- selecting ~1/2 modifiers (4) give you new reward with chance to get arcane or tau - so at this point it's slightly better but it's potentially much harder

- Selecting most or all give you 4th reward with chance to get tau or arcane - so at this point I would say it's good rewards BUT SO MUCH HARDER

- to get 5th reward you need all mission with all perks - same as above but even more harder

Not to mention it's all RNG. You can get 5x Melee arcane for doing "very very hard" missions (6)!

DE/Pablo says they will change how much point you need. So it might change but I don't think it will change too much. If that's how it will be it will be horrible. Of course Team or RNG may save you.

And I've picked the best option. It's not good? Pffft. Let me Leech on other players. That's how DE intended it to play - so I don't complain, lol. Not that I Leech all the way. I put some Energy or heal/revive teammates. However When I have bad weapon then I can just shoot at spoonges.

I've not forma single gear because Duviri.

i dont think they ever said no tauforged shards from the basic versions of the drop tables. the lowest tier of drop table is the exact same one as netracells, they also never stated that the lowest tier only gets 1 item.

there are only 4 tiers and the highest tier drops 5 things, the first two tiers are silver, the third tier is gold and the fourth tier is platinum.

my guess is as follows:

tier 1: no modifiers, 2 rewards rolling the regular table

tier 2: some modifiers, 3 rewards rolling the regular table

tier 3: most modifiers, 4 rewards rolling a table with an increased chance for tauforged shards and legendary arcanes

tier 4: all modifiers, 4 rewards rolling a table with an increased chance for tauforged shards and legendary arcanes AND 1 guaranteed legendary arcane.

 

this lines up with the information DE presented in the devstream AFAIK.

 

 

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Hexerin said:

To get the full five rewards, you are required to activate all of the modifiers in the left-hand column. That includes using a loadout comprised entirely of the weekly randomized equipment. It isn't optional, and that is why people are criticizing the design of the mode.

The fourth and fifth rewards from the week are locked behind this. You have to do a run with everything enabled (including randomized loadout) to enable this, at which point you have to do a second run with everything (including this) enabled to get the full rewards for the week.

You kinda just prove my point. You did simply not listen to what they said. What you show here is just a dev build WIP that is not decided on yet as Pablo straight out said. They are still deciding how many point you will actually need, which means they still havent made up their mind how many of these will need to actually be active, if some will grant more points than others or whatever else they come up with.

They've so far said "most, or all" because they havent decided yet.

1 hour ago, quxier said:

So, if I understand you & devstream:

- at base (no modifiers used) you get 1 reward but without arcanes and tau shards - so it's worse than Netracells - 1/2 of rewards with no tau/arcane

- few modifiers used and you have 2 chance to get shards, melee adapter - it seems less than 4 modifieers (devstream used 4 gear modifiers to get to 3rd reward rank) - so at this point it's you have equal number of rewards (2) but no tau/arcanes SO IT'S STILL WORSE THAN NETRACELLS... and it's  potentially harder

- selecting ~1/2 modifiers (4) give you new reward with chance to get arcane or tau - so at this point it's slightly better but it's potentially much harder

- Selecting most or all give you 4th reward with chance to get tau or arcane - so at this point I would say it's good rewards BUT SO MUCH HARDER

- to get 5th reward you need all mission with all perks - same as above but even more harder

Not to mention it's all RNG. You can get 5x Melee arcane for doing "very very hard" missions (6)!

DE/Pablo says they will change how much point you need. So it might change but I don't think it will change too much. If that's how it will be it will be horrible. Of course Team or RNG may save you.

All levels have a chance for a Tau (like cells), arcanes are tied to the last tier reward. And by their wording, although a bit vague, you can run it without modifications 5 times to get the 5 rewards (shard/tau/adapter) instead of running cells 2 times for 2 rewards, or you can run it once with everything active to get all 5 rewards in one go, where you also get 1 arcane. But the more modifiers you use the higher the chance to get Tau along with eventually unlocking the arcane tier reward. 

The main question for me is if the arcane at the highest tier is in addition to shard/adapter there. If it isnt and it replaces 1/5 rewards with an arcane I will never ever run that tier if I can instead get 5 chances at Tau shards by running modifications for one 3 reward and one 2 reward run with max weighting on Tau probability (maxing research just to the point it doesnt reach the arcane tier). Since I have absolutely zero interest in these 2 arcanes unless they come as an additional bonus ontop of everything else for running max or near max modifications.

And yeah they are still determining how many points are needed and/or how many points the different modifications will add. I'm fairly sure since they still havent made up their mind that we will get the option to skip some modification and still reach the research needed, otherwise they wouldnt still be considering which way to go. They clearly see some issue with requiring all active, so considering if it is worthy of a change or not.

16 minutes ago, SDGDen said:

tier 3: most modifiers, 4 rewards rolling a table with an increased chance for tauforged shards and legendary arcanes

No arcanes in T3 according to the stream. T1-3 says shard/adapter only.

Edited February 25 by SneakyErvin

[schilds]

Pablo says (at 1:03:12) that the early tiers are "exactly the same rolls as if you are doing a netracell".

The GUI in the video is probably placeholder/incomplete, it only lists the common drops.

Edited February 25 by schilds

[_Anise_]

On 2024-02-24 at 12:22 AM, UnstarPrime said:

I'm not going to form an opinion until it's in my hands

which is usually the point where it is too late ?

I forced myself to run Duviri the other day having not played it for several months because one of my fave frames popped up so I jumped on it before realizing all the weapons it gave me were ass, also realized why I hated random loadouts, one tenno god rolled and was carrying the whole group, I was bored out of my skull.

tldr random loadouts here is duviri all over again ?

On 2024-02-24 at 12:35 AM, Brunzwick said:

Since it's locked to two a week

I thought they said you could use two of your netracells to unlock it but could only do it once per week ?

Edited February 25 by _Anise_

[schilds]

15 minutes ago, _Anise_ said:

I thought they said you could use two of your netracells to unlock it but could only do it once per week ?

I think you're right but it was a little confusing because Space Mom started saying "2 deep archimedea and 1 netracell" while Pablo was saying "1 deep archimedea and 3 netracells".

[sunderthefirmament]

42 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

The main question for me is if the arcane at the highest tier is in addition to shard/adapter there. If it isnt and it replaces 1/5 rewards with an arcane I will never ever run that tier if I can instead get 5 chances at Tau shards by running modifications for one 3 reward and one 2 reward run with max weighting on Tau probability (maxing research just to the point it doesnt reach the arcane tier). Since I have absolutely zero interest in these 2 arcanes unless they come as an additional bonus ontop of everything else for running max or near max modifications.

This is what I want to know as well.  If the legendary arcane is the reward for that run at max modifiers and it takes the place of a potential shard (tauforged or normal), I'll never run it.

[(XBOX)RaeOvSunshyn]

On 2024-02-24 at 4:01 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Well, to be fair, take a look at the Circuit; how many times has the Stug appeared there? For anyone?

A lot of times, for me. Although, also to be fair, my Stug has, like, 6 forma and a riven so that might be why.

[quxier]

56 minutes ago, schilds said:

Pablo says (at 1:03:12) that the early tiers are "exactly the same rolls as if you are doing a netracell".

The GUI in the video is probably placeholder/incomplete, it only lists the common drops.

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

2 hours ago, quxier said:

So, if I understand you & devstream:

- at base (no modifiers used) you get 1 reward but without arcanes and tau shards - so it's worse than Netracells - 1/2 of rewards with no tau/arcane

- few modifiers used and you have 2 chance to get shards, melee adapter - it seems less than 4 modifieers (devstream used 4 gear modifiers to get to 3rd reward rank) - so at this point it's you have equal number of rewards (2) but no tau/arcanes SO IT'S STILL WORSE THAN NETRACELLS... and it's  potentially harder

- selecting ~1/2 modifiers (4) give you new reward with chance to get arcane or tau - so at this point it's slightly better but it's potentially much harder

- Selecting most or all give you 4th reward with chance to get tau or arcane - so at this point I would say it's good rewards BUT SO MUCH HARDER

- to get 5th reward you need all mission with all perks - same as above but even more harder

Not to mention it's all RNG. You can get 5x Melee arcane for doing "very very hard" missions (6)!

DE/Pablo says they will change how much point you need. So it might change but I don't think it will change too much. If that's how it will be it will be horrible. Of course Team or RNG may save you.

And I've picked the best option. It's not good? Pffft. Let me Leech on other players. That's how DE intended it to play - so I don't complain, lol. Not that I Leech all the way. I put some Energy or heal/revive teammates. However When I have bad weapon then I can just shoot at spoonges.

I've not forma single gear because Duviri.

i dont think they ever said no tauforged shards from the basic versions of the drop tables. the lowest tier of drop table is the exact same one as netracells, they also never stated that the lowest tier only gets 1 item.

there are only 4 tiers and the highest tier drops 5 things, the first two tiers are silver, the third tier is gold and the fourth tier is platinum.

Yeah, as the user says:

1 hour ago, schilds said:

Pablo says (at 1:03:12) that the early tiers are "exactly the same rolls as if you are doing a netracell".

The GUI in the video is probably placeholder/incomplete, it only lists the common drops.

 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

2 hours ago, SDGDen said:

tier 3: most modifiers, 4 rewards rolling a table with an increased chance for tauforged shards and legendary arcanes

No arcanes in T3 according to the stream. T1-3 says shard/adapter only.

Read above (so shards + adapter + 2 rare arcanes).

1 hour ago, SDGDen said:

my guess is as follows:

tier 1: no modifiers, 2 rewards rolling the regular table

tier 2: some modifiers, 3 rewards rolling the regular table

tier 3: most modifiers, 4 rewards rolling a table with an increased chance for tauforged shards and legendary arcanes

tier 4: all modifiers, 4 rewards rolling a table with an increased chance for tauforged shards and legendary arcanes AND 1 guaranteed legendary arcane.

 

this lines up with the information DE presented in the devstream AFAIK.

There is "Unlock elite Archimedea" so I guess 5th reward will goes here (arcane). Is it repeated "new sortie" (3 missions) or something else... we don't know.

IMHO each tier will give just 1 reward rolling. If that's the case then you need to run probably few (I guess 3) modifiers to get more loot than Netracells. That's not great.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

All levels have a chance for a Tau (like cells), arcanes are tied to the last tier reward. And by their wording, although a bit vague, you can run it without modifications 5 times to get the 5 rewards (shard/tau/adapter) instead of running cells 2 times for 2 rewards, or you can run it once with everything active to get all 5 rewards in one go, where you also get 1 arcane. But the more modifiers you use the higher the chance to get Tau along with eventually unlocking the arcane tier reward. 

To be honest, I've not heard abou REruns giving more rewards.

Quote

To access Deep Archimedea missions, players must be Rank 5 in the Cavia Syndicate, and must sacrifice 2 Netracell Search Pulses to play. Once sacrificed, players can replay these missions as much as they want, but can only receive 5 Rewards from them each week.

Isn't it just like Netracels? You run it 10 times but you only get rewards for first 5? And can you change modifiers after 1 run (whole 3 missions)? Or is it the same modifiers. If this is the same you can e.g. check 1/2 modifiers and can only get chance at arcanes.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

The main question for me is if the arcane at the highest tier is in addition to shard/adapter there. If it isnt and it replaces 1/5 rewards with an arcane I will never ever run that tier if I can instead get 5 chances at Tau shards by running modifications for one 3 reward and one 2 reward run with max weighting on Tau probability (maxing research just to the point it doesnt reach the arcane tier). Since I have absolutely zero interest in these 2 arcanes unless they come as an additional bonus ontop of everything else for running max or near max modifications.

That's good question.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And yeah they are still determining how many points are needed and/or how many points the different modifications will add. I'm fairly sure since they still havent made up their mind that we will get the option to skip some modification and still reach the research needed, otherwise they wouldnt still be considering which way to go. They clearly see some issue with requiring all active, so considering if it is worthy of a change or not.

In Duviri we have just few selection. What's more likely be in the gear list is items we don't have. However we can do it with team so they don't bother balancing it too much. I don't see it will be done here as well.

 

[Raikh]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

And yeah they are still determining how many points are needed and/or how many points the different modifications will add. I'm fairly sure since they still havent made up their mind that we will get the option to skip some modification and still reach the research needed, otherwise they wouldnt still be considering which way to go. They clearly see some issue with requiring all active, so considering if it is worthy of a change or not.

Thats my last hope for what they presented. If one could decide being forced to play a loadout from a limited selection or alternatively burden themselves with other constraints or stronger enemies then it could be an intriguing enough system. If you have to take on everything to get all rewards it not only becomes less interesting as a system it will also become incredibly frustrating just based on the rng involved.

Matching an rng arsenal against concrete debuffs or something of the sort is gonna be pretty awkward though because one may not even be a downside if the Frames or Weapons are already ones you can use perfectly well for the given tasks. On the flipside if you get awful weapons or frames you haven't built it would automatically become the best choice to circumvent that, pretty much regardless what the other options are.
The commentary on the specifics seemed pretty hesitant and I can see the above being the reason why. A little worried they are too keen on forcing a randomized arsenal upon players, rather than let players play what they want and will make design decisions that will enforce that to a large extent for whatever likely misguided reason.

[SneakyErvin]

39 minutes ago, quxier said:

Read above (so shards + adapter + 2 rare arcanes).

Ugh that royally sucks. I thought we could use it all to target shards better and not be forced to face any arcane rolls. Bleh!

40 minutes ago, quxier said:

To be honest, I've not heard abou REruns giving more rewards.

No not more, you can get them all by running several times with fewer modifiers. So 5 with only modifiers to hit the first chest, or enough to hit the third on one run and the second on another. You sacrifice the increased chance for Tau though by reducing the research according to what they said. So a 3+2 if you dont want or can run with the 4th enabled.

42 minutes ago, quxier said:

Isn't it just like Netracels? You run it 10 times but you only get rewards for first 5? And can you change modifiers after 1 run (whole 3 missions)? Or is it the same modifiers. If this is the same you can e.g. check 1/2 modifiers and can only get chance at arcanes.

Yes exactly. And you can change the modifiers you want to have active after a full run, but the modifiers you can chose from are reset weekly. So if you cant handle all (or whatever may be needed for max rewards in a single run) you can first run with enought to get 3 rewards, then reduce it to match just 2 rewards on your second run, or start out testing it with a single reward run then potentially crank it up to max for T2, T3 and T4 reward stages for the remaining rewards.

And looking at the mode. It seems like the missions also increase your research for each run, since each of the mission specific modifiers also have a research value tied to them. If that applies to the overall research or just the individual run is unclear. So if you can only handle the minumum it might be possible to reach up to t3 rewards with zero modifiers by just running more missions to increase the weekly overeall research.

51 minutes ago, quxier said:

In Duviri we have just few selection. What's more likely be in the gear list is items we don't have. However we can do it with team so they don't bother balancing it too much. I don't see it will be done here as well.

I wonder how the rolls will work across the community, if everyone gets the same frame/weapon rolls or if it's individual like Duviri, Helminth and Arbitrations.

[Hexerin]

4 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

You kinda just prove my point. You did simply not listen to what they said. What you show here is just a dev build WIP that is not decided on yet as Pablo straight out said. They are still deciding how many point you will actually need, which means they still havent made up their mind how many of these will need to actually be active, if some will grant more points than others or whatever else they come up with.

They've so far said "most, or all" because they havent decided yet.

We're less than a month away from the patch, what we're seeing is how it's going to work. You don't make fundamental changes to a system when this close to release.

[kamisama85]

Every major update always comes with free tickets to the 'How dare you tell me its a skill issue' choir performance.

[quxier]

On 2024-02-24 at 2:13 AM, schilds said:

1. It's optional.

 

4. The top bonus is a guaranteed legendary arcane. Since at some point your set of arcanes will be completed, forcing extra arcanes will probably not be what most people want anyway.

That means the gold bonus is going to be good enough unless you're farming legendary arcanes to trade.

 

DE can *never* satisfy people who want everything their way, and shouldn't even try, quite frankly.

1. It has enough pros to be not treated as such. I mean having potentially 3 more rewards is bit enough.

4. People may not like Melee adapters yet we have it. And we don't have arcanes enough. Arcanes may be sold (even for Loid's roulette). Adapter may be wasted.

On 2024-02-24 at 3:06 AM, trst said:

On 2024-02-24 at 2:54 AM, Kaiga said:

Wrong. They could create unique enemy types or enemy AI not from 2012 that requires different strategies and movement/tactics to handle, but it's far easier just to limit player choice.

"Just make better AI lol" is not a solution when the average enemy life span is measured in a range from a few frames to a few seconds.

That make sense. The more frames are the less likely an enemy will survive. Ok, sorry, I had to. I love puns & such.

On 2024-02-24 at 3:06 AM, trst said:

On 2024-02-24 at 2:54 AM, Kaiga said:

Wrong. They could create unique enemy types or enemy AI not from 2012 that requires different strategies and movement/tactics to handle, but it's far easier just to limit player choice.

"Just make better AI lol" is not a solution when the average enemy life span is measured in a range from a few frames to a few seconds. Enemies literally don't live long enough for any AI system to make a decision other than "get as much damage and/or abilities off as possible before evaporating". Especially when their targets can be literally immortal and outright immune to damage/effects.

Then make enemies live longer. Make them stronger but spawn them less. Overguard were good start but it wasn't perfect. Make enemies vulnerable to any ability/damage but to some extent (e.g. adaptation or some cap).

There are so much solutions that don't blatantly ignore both sides.

On 2024-02-24 at 3:06 AM, trst said:

On 2024-02-24 at 2:54 AM, Kaiga said:

I answered this point earlier.
You cannot seriously expect the player to retain 10+ years worth of often obsolete content for the sake of these new game modes. This is that same "just build everything 5head" reply i mentioned in the OP. Also:

Congratulations, you broke the time and platinum bank on loadout slots, only to get items from 2011 that are hardly viable in level 300+ content anyway this week, while your friend gets the kuva bramma and glaive prime and has a lot more fun than you because lolRNG

Like i said, a consistent expectation of player performance is a cornerstone of good design.

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Except you can expect players to do exactly that in a game that doesn't impose forced inventory limits. Platinum can be easily earned for free and Forma isn't even a requirement here as virtually anything can be made viable, or at least useful, at such levels with just a Catalyst. Something which is also effectively free with how trivial Nightwave is.

Also the expectation isn't to get everything anyways. Just enough to consistently get gear that can trivialize the content.

Define "enough". 50% gear? 25%? I guess we have like 500 gear items excluding very specific things like Archwings. For 25%, that's still 125 items to forma, put potatoes etc. It's still not great.

On 2024-02-24 at 2:13 AM, schilds said:

2. All it takes is one decent weapon in a loadout and you're set. *Every* frame can be modded to be viable in *any* high level content, so at worst you'll get three terrible weapon choices and have to give up just *one* bonus for a decent weapon.

Ok, but how many frames can be moded without shield gate abuse, without some exploits (e.g. staying invisible all the time), without shards and using frame's good points (what frame is strong in)? I want to play frames and use their abilities/passives more often than just cast & forget and abuse/use generic tactics.

On 2024-02-24 at 3:26 AM, SpiritTeA said:

just tune up your operator that can crack those lvl 300 enemies. If you don’t want to adapt it’s not really a problem of game design.

SP, archon, overguard and other "perks" included? I'm just asking because I've not gotten many amps because I don't find them interesting.

On 2024-02-24 at 4:39 AM, schilds said:

Some examples:

1. Some people think that if their loadout can't handle survival without ever touching a life support tower, then it's not viable. You don't *need* to only subsist on enemy kills for life support, but some people get it into their heads that it's a failure if they can't. This is a headspace issue.

It depends if you have enough enemies. When enemies don't spawn and you are struggling killing enemies (or just not fast enough) then I can see people wanting to kill quickly enough.

ps. I've done riven with "survi 5 minutes" with no kill. It's not hard.

On 2024-02-24 at 6:40 PM, Voltage said:

DE turning Melee Duplicate and Crescendo to a Pseudo-Energize/Grace from back in the day makes for a mode that actually feels rewarding if you can handle it.

Are those arcanes that good or "I can sell them for high price" kind of thing? If this is 2nd thing then I don't like it.