Being forced to use outdated or bottom-tier RNG equipment in new high level game modes is not "difficulty"

[schilds]

Would it be nice if more weapons were balanced? Yes.

Would it be nice if challenge in WF was more about dynamic action in-mission than static preparation before the mission? Yes.

Would it be nice if the challenge was more about strategy, tactics and skill application rather than rng? Yes.

Would it be nice if the game was better balanced and could present a challenge without crutches (for the devs) like damage attenuation? Yes.

Is it ok to prefer certain frames and weapons? Yes.

Might there be a better or more fun risk-reward scale and tradeoffs than the one presented by this new game mode? I don't know. Probably. Though I think Warframe's current design and player expectations probably make it hard to find and implement such a thing. However. I think DE are trying, and their attempts are at least getting more nuanced.

 

But:

Are we being *forced* to use a rng loadout in this new game mode? No, not going on our current information. Of course that might change, and then I'll eat my words :P.

Edited February 27 by schilds

[Skoomaseller]

13 hours ago, Aerikx said:

The outrage is because:

They want free and easy legendary loot. 

(It's like the Plague Star folks who claim they want it to be frequently because it's a fun event/experience. When in truth, they just want free forma)

They want Deep Archimedia to be hard enough that casual players are excluded.

(Kind of like how folks wanted Archon Hunts to be hard as hell. But then got salty when the Archons turned out to not be pushovers, requiring players to actually fight them thanks to the supposedily bad mechanic of Damage Attenuation)

All so they can turn around and sell the loot for an exorbitant price to those casual players. Telling them that they need the loot in order to have a chance at clearing the very content that drops it. 

(IE: Raids and the precedent that it's community created.)

Or to be more blunt:

"Please DE, give me a real challenge. I (generalization) want to flex on the community and show just how much better I am than the majority of it." 

*DE creates an actual skill check of a challenge that takes away the Meta 999Billion damage while immune to all forms of damage meta builds* 

"No! Not like that!" 

This reminds me of the rage over the whole hidden 'The Fragmented One' Super Boss. 

People raging because they can't go in, turn damage immune and just face tank the boss. The fight is more about actually dodging attacks, and dps'ing at appropriate times. 

I solo'd the damned thing (as Ash) by memorizing it's attack animations, learning how to dodge it's attacks, and using a mix of Operator/Warframe powers, Rolling Guard, and Adaptation when needed to heal, buff, or block attacks/make up for when I mess up. And I can count on 0 hands how many people have given a crap about the hands on my landing craft. 

In the end I don't see Deep Archimedia getting run very often by the majority of the community.

So eventually DE will lower the difficulty and then it'll be outrage over how easy it is for folks to get legendary arcanes. 

Honestly, I hope to enjoy it. As I enjoy Duviri forcing me to make due with what I'm given. Gives a survival vibe to some content. Forces me to approach fights differently. Instead of "Keep everything dead." Sometimes it's "Stall for time.", "Distract.", "Everyone take a nap.", etc. 

ah yes. there it is. it was only a matter of time before someone pulled the "you just want easy loot" card. 

the very same one used when asking for more ways to earn shards, and when asking for shard fusion. 

this take is so disingenuous that I'm not even gonna bother countering it, lmfao. 

[Pakaku]

On 2024-02-24 at 5:34 AM, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

while I still like my OP gear, I take pride now in being able to do missions with sub-optimal gear, for me it's exciting, it reminds me of my newbie days where my mod loadouts and gear investment weren't so high and I just had to learn to make do. recently I've been running Caliban a lot. took him to archon hunts, Netracells, the lot. the frame that people pretend doesn't exist is still absolutely usable (he could be better though.)

The game is so easy that it eventually becomes boring, and the only way I've found it interesting is to make it interesting with non-meta gear. So in the end I am very happy that I've taken the time to experiment with more stuff, rather then get caught up in the meta-lord spiral

Something like this mode sounds good to me, I'm just hoping it won't be a Netracells 2

Edited February 27 by Pakaku

[Anti-Incarnon]

48 minutes ago, Pakaku said:

The game is so easy that it eventually becomes boring, and the only way I've found it interesting is to make it interesting with non-meta gear. So in the end I am very happy that I've taken the time to experiment with more stuff, rather then get caught up in the meta-lord spiral

Something like this mode sounds good to me, I'm just hoping it won't be a Netracells 2

This. I exclusively use non-meta guns and enjoy variety above all, so this game mode looks like it’s made for me, and if everything else is made for the Torid+Ocucor nuker, then why shouldn’t it be. I highly doubt that they make it impossible to play and reap the rewards from this mission unless you’re like me though, so I wouldn’t worry.

[Kaiga]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I've never seen a nail get hit in the head so hard and so precisely. You've spelled out the pattern of those types of players pretty clearly, and it's a shame that the cycle never ends. I hope it finally does though.

I just wish they all would quit whining how DE issues a challenge. Long time players claim how easy the game is and how they can level cap, but are exposed to have only been able to rely on meta builds. I mean, where are all of the "this game is super easy" players? A challenge is coming and you guys are backing out or waiting for DE to feel bad and nerf it due to these poor excuses? 

I don't think either of you actually read the thread or anything in it, because this point was asked and answered several times and you're still yapping about fake veterans, or something.

Riddle me this, capes crusader- is the job actually difficult, or are you not actually allowed to use the best tools for it most of the time?

Sometimes you do get revenant, the kuva bramma and glaive prime, and guess what, now the content is vastly easier- and that's still a problem because, and I'll highlight it for those who have difficulties with reading comprehension:

RNG deciding how difficult the content is each week like this is boring and bad design

Seriously. Thats been the repeated point the entire time. Difficulty is something being mechanically difficult with movement techs to master, enemy weaknesses to exploit, and team roles to play, leading to a feeling of "wow that was tough,  but we did it. 

Meanwhile DE: Nah, let's randomly pick your loadout for you.

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Long time players claim how easy the game is and how they can level cap, but are exposed to have only been able to rely on meta builds.

Being clowned on for using the most effective tool for the job is the dumbest but also funniest thing I've ever heard on the forums-

I guess I better tell the fragmented one killers, and eidolon speedeunners in my clan to start using subpar amps and no focus unlocks, lest they get exposed as fakes for relying on "meta builds" 🤣😂

Edited February 27 by Kaiga

[PollexMessier]

I don't really like the idea of using randomized loadouts to create difficulty.

I loved Circuit's randomized loadouts because Decrees largely supplemented a lot of the trash weapons. You could get garbage weapons and still be melting enemies if you got good decree rolls. That's what made the random gear fun. And they re-roll fairly frequently.

Here tho a bad roll is just "guess you ether get carried or don't get these rewards this week, sucks to be you"

That's not difficulty. That's a slot machine.

Maybe if the default mod loadouts were actually made by a sensible human being it wouldn't be so bad.

Edited February 28 by PollexMessier

[Slayer-.]

5 minutes ago, PollexMessier said:

I don't really like the idea of using randomized loadouts to create difficulty.

I loved Circuit's rondomized loadouts because Decrees largely supplimented a lot of the trash weapons. You could get garbage weapons and still be melting enemies if you got good decree rolls. That's what made the random gear fun. and they re-roll fairly frequently.

Here tho a bad roll is just "guess you ether get carried or don't get these rewards this week, sucks to be you"

That's not difficulty. That's a slot machine.

Maybe if the default mod loadouts were actually made by a sensible human being it wouldn't be so bad.

There it is the big major thing that is different Decrees largely supplemented a lot of the trash and seeing I get a lot of trash RNG.

However I'm going to reserve my judgment until it lands and I look at it in more detail.

[Skoomaseller]

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

I don't think either of you actually read the thread or anything in it, because this point was asked and answered several times and you're still yapping about fake veterans, or something.

Riddle me this, capes crusader- is the job actually difficult, or are you not actually allowed to use the best tools for it most of the time?

Sometimes you do get revenant, the kuva bramma and glaive prime, and guess what, now the content is vastly easier- and that's still a problem because, and I'll highlight it for those who have difficulties with reading comprehension:

RNG deciding how difficult the content is each week like this is boring and bad design

Seriously. Thats been the repeated point the entire time. Difficulty is something being mechanically difficult with movement techs to master, enemy weaknesses to exploit, and team roles to play, leading to a feeling of "wow that was tough,  but we did it. 

Meanwhile DE: Nah, let's randomly pick your loadout for you.

Being clowned on for using the most effective tool for the job is the dumbest but also funniest thing I've ever heard on the forums-

I guess I better tell the fragmented one killers, and eidolon speedeunners in my clan to start using subpar amps and no focus unlocks, lest they get exposed as fakes for relying on "meta builds" 🤣😂

sorry bro if you're not fighting the Fragmented One with unranked unmodded excal with mk1 braton/lato/skana you're not a true vet 😤😤 I don't make the rules

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, Kaiga said:

I don't think either of you actually read the thread or anything in it, because this point was asked and answered several times and you're still yapping about fake veterans, or something.

Riddle me this, capes crusader- is the job actually difficult, or are you not actually allowed to use the best tools for it most of the time?

Sometimes you do get revenant, the kuva bramma and glaive prime, and guess what, now the content is vastly easier- and that's still a problem because, and I'll highlight it for those who have difficulties with reading comprehension:

RNG deciding how difficult the content is each week like this is boring and bad design

Seriously. Thats been the repeated point the entire time. Difficulty is something being mechanically difficult with movement techs to master, enemy weaknesses to exploit, and team roles to play, leading to a feeling of "wow that was tough,  but we did it. 

Meanwhile DE: Nah, let's randomly pick your loadout for you.

Being clowned on for using the most effective tool for the job is the dumbest but also funniest thing I've ever heard on the forums-

I guess I better tell the fragmented one killers, and eidolon speedeunners in my clan to start using subpar amps and no focus unlocks, lest they get exposed as fakes for relying on "meta builds" 🤣😂

What I'm saying, once again (and for every time complaints like these come up), is this just a game mode. Just A game mode that will be available in a decade running game full of different game modes. People have literally complained about every single one of them, including the Fragmented One, as if it were the only game mode in the entire game. This has been going on since before "I hate this! Why can't I just use my Warframe to defeat the Eidolons? I worked so hard for them and now I have to level up and use the weak operators!?". 

Vets have asked for different game modes and different ways to play, while a few vets complained about not being able to play every mode the exact same way. "But why not just make it more difficult so I can use my most powerful builds anyway?". Yes, that was Steel Path, The Fragmented One, the Archons, Profit Taker, the original Wolf. We have those...and guys complained about those too.

Now, this new mode addresses the other side of the complaints, "why can't we have more challenges and ways to test our skill with the arsenal we've spent years collecting and building?". That is SP Circuit, Sorties and now this mode. Wait, are these the only three game modes that attempt to addresses those players' requests? Is this really what you guys are outraged about? Even worse, are you guys really a mess because of an optional version of a current mission? 

[Kaiga]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

is this just a game mode. Just A game mode that will be available in a decade running game full of different game modes.

Yes, a game mode, but that game mode is also the premier endgame content that they want us to play as a challenge. RNG-for-difficulty seems to be the trend for what seems to be made out to be the highest end of the game, and that's not great.

[Anova3]

The fact is, for a lot of people, RNG loadouts and fomo tactics like this, suck.

I need to be able to get the top reward without picking even one randomized item, or I basically won't play this game mode, and I'm sure many others may dip their toe into it when it comes out only to settle on the same opinion.

I've literally refused to play hardly any duviri (I did force myself through a significant amount of SP Circuit, both to make sure it wasn't "just me" and to get a few incarnons I wanted badly enough) because I cannot stand randomized loadouts.

I can survive in it. It's not a matter of difficulty. I've been here since the game launched and I've got a roster of tools to match. It doesn't change the fact that RNG loadouts feel scummy to me, and I will refuse to play it out of protest.

Do Better, DE. Do better. We know you'll nerf the RNG "difficulty" in a few months after the tryhards chew on it and you don't see the numbers you wanted playing it anyway. You did it with literally every other heavy-handed-RNG system to date.

What's that? you're one of the trolls in this forum reading my comment and you're about to say you like it just to see if you can stir the pot?
I'm confident you don't actually care. You're just here to give people with legitimate complaints a hard time and everyone knows it. Move along and find somewhere else to troll. Your opinion won't change mine, and mine won't change yours anyway.

Edited February 28 by Anova3

[sly_squash]

My take on it is... I guess I'll just quote myself from here:

"DE has been signaling for quite some time now that they want us to maintain a wide weapon arsenal.  It's built into the mastery rank progression system.  They introduce powerful new mods that can only be used on specific weapons.  They incentivized having diversified weapon loadouts by buffing specific weapons in arbitrations.  Then they did it again for archon hunts.  Now they're doing it again with duviri.  They've been effectively screaming from the rooftops "Stop selling off items that took an afternoon to farm after maxing them in one ESO run" for ages now and you ignored their warnings.

Well, now we have another one to add to the list: Netracell Hard Mode

You guys about ready to listen yet?

[ChaoticOrderly]

Yea, I'm absolutely not playing this content when it drops because I don't play Warframe for it's difficulty and I'm certainly not fond of arbitrary difficulty via modifiers. Even if you want the max reward you either have to premake the squad and have everyone take one bonus objective, premake the squad and have one person sandbag and take all the bonus objectives, or just pray you get competent people and considering how people simply need to be told to stand and kill enemies in a marked circle, I don't have much hope. I'm sticking to solo netracells, the arcane removal was enough for me honestly.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

6 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Yes, a game mode, but that game mode is also the premier endgame content that they want us to play as a challenge. RNG-for-difficulty seems to be the trend for what seems to be made out to be the highest end of the game, and that's not great.

Yes, and literally the last update was a "bring any frame and any weapon" endgame challenge: The Fragmented One. Are you saying that every single endgame content must be your preferred style or it's trash, bad design or whatever negativity generating title you want to give it? Isn't that being selfish and unrealistic, considering this game caters to a giant, omnidirectional player base?

Why not at least try to engage in it and have some fun with your crew and see just how god awful or glorious your performance can be? 

[Skoomaseller]

18 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

My take on it is... I guess I'll just quote myself from here:

"DE has been signaling for quite some time now that they want us to maintain a wide weapon arsenal.  It's built into the mastery rank progression system.  They introduce powerful new mods that can only be used on specific weapons.  They incentivized having diversified weapon loadouts by buffing specific weapons in arbitrations.  Then they did it again for archon hunts.  Now they're doing it again with duviri.  They've been effectively screaming from the rooftops "Stop selling off items that took an afternoon to farm after maxing them in one ESO run" for ages now and you ignored their warnings.

Well, now we have another one to add to the list: Netracell Hard Mode

You guys about ready to listen yet?

Ah your terrible response. Then I'll just link my own response to yours here:

you still don't get it huh? you still think your take wasn't terrible? 

[sly_squash]

5 minutes ago, Skoomaseller said:

you still don't get it huh? you still think your take wasn't terrible? 

Considering less than a year after my post they're already doing the exact same thing as I had noted, I would indeed say my take has aged like fine wine and yours has aged like leftover turkey.

You lost.  I was right.  DE are continuing to incentivize maintaining a reasonably well-stocked arsenal.  You may not like this fact, but it was happening, it happened again, and it will likely continue to happen in the future.  It's your choice if you wanna get with the program or just cry about it.

 

[Skoomaseller]

2 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Considering less than a year after my post they're already doing the exact same thing as I had noted, I would indeed say my take has aged like fine wine and yours has aged like leftover turkey.

You lost.  I was right.  DE are continuing to incentivize maintaining a reasonably well-stocked arsenal.  You may not like this fact, but it was happening, it happened again, and it will likely continue to happen in the future.  It's your choice if you wanna get with the program or just cry about it.

 

Yeah, I suppose when you're so far up your own ass, you didn't actually learn anything. Enjoy your pretend challenge I guess. 

Edited February 28 by Skoomaseller

[sly_squash]

Just now, Skoomaseller said:

Yeah, I suppose when you're acting this stuck-up, you didn't actually learn anything. Enjoy your pretend challenge I guess. 

Muted so I don't need to see you cry about all this a third time when it happens yet again...

[Skoomaseller]

48 minutes ago, sly_squash said:

Muted so I don't need to see you cry about all this a third time when it happens yet again...

Oh no, I am devastated. 

[Kaiga]

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yes, and literally the last update was a "bring any frame and any weapon" endgame challenge: The Fragmented One. Are you saying that every single endgame content must be your preferred style or it's trash, bad design or whatever negativity generating title you want to give it? Isn't that being selfish and unrealistic, considering this game caters to a giant, omnidirectional player base?

Why not at least try to engage in it and have some fun with your crew and see just how god awful or glorious your performance can be? 

Because we already learned this lesson a year ago with the steel path circuit. 

It's replies like these that miss the forest for the trees in terms of not understanding the original post, or having read it-

I would be fine with randomized loadouts, it would be really nice actually to use a diverse array of content from warframe's history and arsenal, IF there was some kind of reasonable expectation of consistent performance between the items you're required to be stuck with for the weekly rotation. Performance that is capable of handling the 300+ debuff challenge that's being presented, too.

But there's not, and the being stuck with it part is therefore a problem.

Edited February 28 by Kaiga

[Raikh]

16 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Yes, and literally the last update was a "bring any frame and any weapon" endgame challenge: The Fragmented One. Are you saying that every single endgame content must be your preferred style or it's trash, bad design or whatever negativity generating title you want to give it? Isn't that being selfish and unrealistic, considering this game caters to a giant, omnidirectional player base?

When I came back to the game a while ago I was kinda excited for the Fragmented One 60 eyes hardmode as it seemed to have a real HP bar. Till I got hit once and got all my abilities turned off and unable to press anything again while my screen was torn up by a magnetic proc. Can't wait for our next pick anything endgame challenge where the entire mission happens inside a Nullifier Bubble.

Usually when I play a game I expect the game to cater to its strengths and what makes it unique and stand out. Yet here we go every time with them trying to remove what makes Warframe Warframe in order to create "challenge".

16 hours ago, sly_squash said:

Considering less than a year after my post they're already doing the exact same thing as I had noted, I would indeed say my take has aged like fine wine and yours has aged like leftover turkey.

You lost.  I was right.  DE are continuing to incentivize maintaining a reasonably well-stocked arsenal.  You may not like this fact, but it was happening, it happened again, and it will likely continue to happen in the future.  It's your choice if you wanna get with the program or just cry about it.

I cannot remember seeing someone so proud that they correctly predicted terrible design decisions continuing to happen.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Kaiga said:

Because we already learned this lesson a year ago with the steel path circuit. 

It's replies like these that miss the forest for the trees in terms of not understanding the original post, or having read it-

I would be fine with randomized loadouts, it would be really nice actually to use a diverse array of content from warframe's history and arsenal, IF there was some kind of reasonable expectation of consistent performance between the items you're required to be stuck with for the weekly rotation. Performance that is capable of handling the 300+ debuff challenge that's being presented, too.

But there's not, and the being stuck with it part is therefore a problem.

What are these weapons that can't handle level 300+, particularly non SP 300+? The stug? Mk1 weapons? We know we're facing the murmur, we know they are weak against radiation, we have radiation and murmur bane mods, galvanized mods and we have companion 3.0.

I guess I will never agree with you or anyone about weapon viability when we see youtube videos or I myself go ham in SP with weapons I never considered powerful, like the braton prime (non Incarnon). Of course, my view of the braton prime being a weaker weapon may upset someone else, and that's the point. Why not just see what you can do?

[KalvakPrime]

19 hours ago, Kaiga said:

Because we already learned this lesson a year ago with the steel path circuit. 

It's replies like these that miss the forest for the trees in terms of not understanding the original post, or having read it-

I would be fine with randomized loadouts, it would be really nice actually to use a diverse array of content from warframe's history and arsenal, IF there was some kind of reasonable expectation of consistent performance between the items you're required to be stuck with for the weekly rotation. Performance that is capable of handling the 300+ debuff challenge that's being presented, too.

But there's not, and the being stuck with it part is therefore a problem.

Agree.  Seems like just a Forma, Adapter, Arcane dark hole for DE.

You have to revisit hundreds of potential weapons, add forma, Arcane, and Adapters to make them even viable!  But having 1000 forma and 500 adapters handy, is an easy (12 plat per forma, 20 per adapter , 12,000 p + 10,000 p ... 22,000 platinum.  Yeah, we don't get adapters fur every weapon, but it's on par.

And YES, the weapons offered are often terrible, unless you have every Incarnon weapon already maxed!  

And YES, the Default Loadouts are Ridiculous!  Seriously?  Some if them I've taken for fun, and they couldn't put a dent in a SP grunt!  Never a decent default loadout.  Never.

Big Platinum Farm for DE!

SIMPLE SOLUTION:  Give More Weapon Choices!   With MORE CHOICES, OR A REROLL WEAPONS - We'd at Le5 have a better chance!   And no weapons under MR12.  Better even, no players under MR12!  Yesterday there was, no kidding, an MR 1 and MR3 with Mk-1 Weapons!  HOW does this happen? 

ALSO!!!  ADD A CHECKUP TO SP CIRCUIT!   THE NUMBER OF TIMES I've come into Circuit and had some inconsiderate idiots jump thru as I spawn in... Aaargh!   JUST ADD A CHECKUP, AS PER ANY MISSION - MAYBE A 60-90s max timer?  But getting Zero time to pick anything or Loadouts, then pulled in - Hurts Everyone.  Many will leave immediately after launch - then we are all screwed.  

AND - If we get "MIGRATED", give us the Option to Leave with last round Full Benefits.  Getting Migrated on certain missions, like Excavation or Defense, is practically insta-death/fail...

Side Note; Love Stalker, we need to be able to do a loadout!  

(Yes, guy a little carried away on multiple subjects... TBI kickin' in...)

[SneakyErvin]

Considering we are facing the murmur and that they are about as threatening as a infested it shouldnt really matter what picks we get. There are easy solutions to get around things no matter the pick you get aslong as you own them.

Set up each weapon with a radiation config, this should cover potential defense missions to keep the enemies busy fighting their own.

Set up each frame with a Helminth config that will benefit you versus the murmur.

It shouldnt really be harder than that unless the other modifications to the run screw that up in some way. Which would be fun since I love PoE maps and Marvel Heroes Danger Chips.

[Yami_Industries]

On 2024-02-23 at 5:08 PM, quxier said:

And what's great about this? If it was few frames and ~10 weapon from each category then I would be ok with that. Game has many more items. 55 frames, hundreds of weapon from each category. Each item having 3-5 forma, maybe helminth. Imagine how much work and time it would take. If you like such stuff then it's fine. However expecting it from people is CRAZY.

If you want arcanes then you almost have to play it. Otherwise what you get? Stupid small chance 5 times a week?!

Sure, they are optional but each "take X" stuff gives you points. I may remember it incorectly but near base level you get 2-3 chances for Shards & Melee adapters. No Arcane. You need either last one or maybe pre-last one too.

Where is my +10000000000000000 buton?

I'm tired of recent(ish) "challenges":

- slap more ehp, damage reduction, immortality phase

- random gear

When I beat something with my preferred gear.I feel like I've achieved something. Those kind of things just makes me cheater or playing roulette. It's horrible feeling when you are basically told: "grab everything or it will be bad experience".

Bro then don't play games like monster hunter or games that require prepping on your part to get stuff done. I love using frames and weapons that didn't get much love until now like I didn't know mag was op as hell, I didn't know the harpak was full auto like a braton and had homing rounds that you can tag manually on enemies, i didn't know the arca scisco was a knell that rapid fires like the knell and ramps up per shot rather than per headshot!! It gives me more of a reason to try frames and weapons I thought were garbage or Mr fodder and try making them into something actually usable also grendel with speed in circuit is fun because why not treat Warframe like it's super monkey ball on crack 🤣