The moving of archon shards from Chipper to some where else, feels out of character.

[RichardKam]

5小时前 , ValtrPrime 说:

Let's hope that number doesn't exceed expectations...

DE is moving Kahl weekly shard to the Cavia. By the same logic, Cavia shard can only be purchased once per week only (i.e. like riven mod from riven sliver), or 100k+ standing.

Unless DE aims to push it to something like twice per week at the same time.

[(PSN)rexis12]

I'd rather it be this than back then, where upon seeing an unpopular game mode they moved something else from the general drop table to that unpopular game mode to force people to play it. 

'Cough' Railjack 'Cough'

Be lucky that they didn't decide move Melee Arcanes to Khal instead. 

[Lord_Drod]

I know I have complained about Kahl content in the past, but it is actually not that bad.  After taking like a month off when sanctum came out, I enjoyed playing it again.  They have updated it and have continued to improve it.  I feel like they could do a lot more with it, but aren't willing to put time into it when its being ignored or negatively received.  Kahl could be moddable or have some QoL upgrades and needed to expand to more tiles (the archon missions also need this).  What happened to the corpus guy and other guy from new war?  Where is their content?

I enjoy Kahls movement or at least mastering the jetpack and figuring out weird stuff like his "super jump" to get up top in sneaky sabotage, from the floor to the railing and up! instead of climbing the boxes across the sign method in the first area (if you know what I mean).

That said, I'm not really going to farm the content for plat as some are suggesting and I really don't care about regular shards (although I do take them - many of them are just sitting in helminth).  At least they are adding an avenue to convert them into taus.  So the mission is repetitive and not very rewarding, and it kinda does take a while and it's partially because Kahl is like a turtle and can't bullet jump or is moddable in any way.  Let's be honest, Kahl is kinda clunky - it seems to me he has trouble doing a basic task like smashing an urn, he gets too excited and overjumps it.

Kahl probably should exist as an island.  It does seem silly that he has a weekly mission that never ends, when that's really not what the core of Warframe is about.  However, it feels weird how he will just become abandoned.  There already is plenty of incentive to play and max Cavia standing so I'm not sure about that change.  A lot of Warframe suffers a similar fate.

Also, someone did compare Kahl to the netracells in this thread and I do enjoy Kahl missions over netracells for sure.  Those missions suck...they are insanely boring.  I'm barely interested in the rewards - mostly tau shards, but I have received zero.  I also don't care about the legendary arcanes and if that is what the new "hard" missions are centered on, I probably won't be doing them much if tau shards are not in the table.  That said, I am not even that interested in archon shards, especially not the fused ones.  They are extremely niche use - I think I put two corrosive stacks in Citrine, and that's it. 

To clarify, I'm interested in shards somewhat....I've been doing the netracells, but the quality of play time vs the reward in those missions and even the upcoming missions to me seems very low.  They are not on par with Archon missions and even these need massive updating.  Why are we playing on Earth and Mars - two of the worst tiles in the game.  Gas City rework was not really that great.  I don't enjoy the new IO tile even though the last one needed an update.  The new one, along with new ship, new index etc, is just too big for spawns (has a lot of annoying walls, up just blocking game flow) and its extremely slow.  Even OG Earth defense is bad.  So we could be playing in better areas.

I do like that DE is trying to provide some challenging content and rewards, but there's too many different groups of people to balance and provide rewards of value for.

[(PSN)rexis12]

Kahl is basically Archwing, except he can't even be modded and even IF he can be modded, let's not pretend that Archwing wasn't a complete failure that resulted in them having to remove a massive swathe of missions when it was completely and utterly unpopular.

 

[Aruquae]

2 hours ago, (PSN)rexis12 said:

Kahl is basically Archwing, except he can't even be modded and even IF he can be modded, let's not pretend that Archwing wasn't a complete failure that resulted in them having to remove a massive swathe of missions when it was completely and utterly unpopular.

 

Oh hey Rexis, haven’t seen you in a while 

I agree, Kahl (along with Archwing sadly) is better to just be forgotten at this point

Screw Chipper too… I hate protecting him in defense… he just wants to die

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, ValtrPrime said:

Let's hope that number doesn't exceed expectations...

If they would go beyond that it would be strange.

14 hours ago, RichardKam said:

DE is moving Kahl weekly shard to the Cavia. By the same logic, Cavia shard can only be purchased once per week only (i.e. like riven mod from riven sliver), or 100k+ standing.

Unless DE aims to push it to something like twice per week at the same time.

Well they've only said it is moving. So most of it should stay about the same with 1 per week on a rotation with roughly the same time needed to get enough currency to buy one. Anything else would really question why it is moved to begin with instead of just having access to one more shard per week from Cavia aswell. I mean if they go with something like 50k or 100k standing they might have just aswell just added it ontop of the one from Kahl since the time spent between the two wouldnt be close to comparable at that point.

So since getting the 90 for a shard per week is roughly 15 minutes the price of the shard when moved to Cavia should really be 15k at most, since that is 3x max tier bounties which also results in roughly 15 minutes. But just as with Kahl that time can be shorter or longer depending on the mission at hand and side objective. However, considering the difficulty between Kahl and a max tier bounty, the price of the shard at the Cavia should likely be 10k instead, since that would only require 3 T3 bounties while the time spent is comparable. And those further in progress could do it in 2 T5 runs.

Making it 50k or 100k would be absurd since it would both result in a massive amount of time spent in comparison to Kahl and it would move away from the idea of it being a bite sized activity you can do in a day. It would go from 15 minutes per shard to 50 to 100 minutes (for those that can do the highest bounty tier) and require 2+ days of capping or nearly capping standing.

[Aerikx]

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

While farming Cavia standing you'll unlock weapons, standing ranks, get arcanes, mods, get needed materials, excess Voca and so on. You can also do this in a group to speed up and guarantee you get max Voca per bounty. We also dont know if it will be standing based to buy the Shard or if it might be a simple trade in for a Voca, some Lab materials or whatever else they might think of. For all we know it might be tied to a single new bounty, or a new currency given upon bounty completion that you need X of. 

If I recall the Cavia store, you unlock 1 weapon (that hammer), 1 frame, and then the arcanes and adapters.

Where Kahl unlocks 3 Weapons, 1 Warframe, the useless Archon Mods (Seriously DE. These need a rework, yesterday.), some cosmetics, and of course an Archon Shard.

Your comment goes into what I was suggesting when I brought up how the Expansion/Update has altered Kahl's role as many here often take posts too literal. 

Kahl's weekly puzzle challenge (cause DE failed to capture what everyone liked about Kahl in TNW and wanted from future Kahl content. *Twitches as he tries hard not to rant on that tangent*) was part of the former endgame loop (unless you count the Duviri expansion/side-pansion...Duviri really complicates things...) where as now what you say is partially true. 

Kahl is somewhat out of place because the narrative has shifted away from Narmer entirely. However, as a weekly challenge, much like how The Circuit's Incarnons weapons are, his content is still relevant and part of the late game gear acquisition loop. 

Reset hits, you knock out Kahl, hunt down an Archon, make your Circuit picks, and run your Netracells while simultaneously working on Nightwave.

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Kahl is in reality disrupting the weekly content loop, since it is completely void of progress and advancement outside of the shard. Even if a newer player needs to farm Cavia standing for the new shard, it still lets them knock out several other weekly things aswell in the process. Kahl doesnt count as a mission, he doesnt add to kills or anything else tied to nightwave for instance. 

If Kahl is disrupting then so is The Circuit and I don't see anyone asking for Incarnons to be moved or shifted somewhere. 

They are both tied to content islands. (That said I do NOT want Kahl to be linked to Cavia or anything. Let him fight Narmer, leave it at that.) with Incarnons being even more disruptive as they not only require playing an entirely different game *ahem* I mean game mode, but they require diving into Steel Path. 

That said, his content's role (much like The Circuit) was/is to gear up/progress players so that they can move onto the current endgame activities. (Normal Circuit helping newer players acquire all manner of gear and Steel Path unlocking late game weapons)

Removing the shard without replacing it with some relevant items will just end up with unprepared players being thrown into new content and create another Fortuna scale debacle. 

For example...

The Fortuna Intro quest was a newbie slayer/Player retention nightmare.

From the enemies in Orb Vallis being far too much for New Players (even some veterans hated the Fortuna enemies.) to handle, to the quest missions (the mobile defense & defense missions specifically) annihilating new players, to the Profit Taker obliterating them during it's introduction.

If memory serves me right DE has toned this quest down multiple times, and either locked it off, or made it optional now because it was essentially a hard wall that made new players quit the game in high numbers. IE: The Gear Check/Difficulty jump was too much.

I like to bring this up because this also happened with Zariman content and seems to be happening with Whispers as well. 

Which tells me, there is a progression step missing. That or...*facepalms* they need to tone down Whispers content. 

Unlike other tilesets, Whispers content is large, expensive, has endlessly spawning enemies (even in Exterminate), hidden collectibles that often require parkour skills (let's not talk about how long I watched a squad struggle to grab 1 Voca located on a pipe), 

As for his gameplay not counting towards Nightwave...

Kahl would serve a Nightwave Cheese for some challenges. (honestly I think playing as him SHOULD count as the number of challenges he'd be functioning as a cheese for are slim but I get why they made the decision). 

I see Kahl as a good way to speed up that process as it's content everyone can do, and it's content everyone can do on their own time, no carrys or premades required, no need to farm and empower random vehicles/flavor of the quarter items (Railjack/Necramech/K-Drive/Heavy Weapons). 

23 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Although I think the shard will cost something like 15-20k standing. Which means slightly longer time spent on it for players that cant do the two highest bounty tiers, unless they instead run what they can handle and chase down the Voca aswell. It would also mean it can be done in a single day for most players, 15k would make sure every single player can achieve it in a single day since the rank 0 standing cap is 16k.

You really think the Dev studio that made Duviri Paradox a new Starting Point for the game would set a normal Archon Shard (the power creep item they are notoriously and  infamously protective of) at that low a price? 

I'd like this to be true but we all know it won't be that way. 

On 2024-03-07 at 5:57 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

You may have memorized my opinion on Kahl content, but you don’t know me or how I play. I frequently carry others on archon hunts. And though I don’t play netracells on public, I do play them with a clanmate who would have trouble clearing them without me.

And why don't you play Netracells on public? You seem to desire that others play Warframe your way and not have any alternative method/gameplay style.

You abhor Kahl content and have wanted to see it burn and disappear and thus force those who rely on it into playing the content that you won't even make an effort to play with them in.

That is what I take issue with.

I dislike Steel Path (Bullet Sponge Mode), Arbitrations (Let's just slow down the game), and Conclave (No explanation needed), but I don't wish to see the modes removed and any reason to play them removed.

I don't mind having alternative routes to their rewards however.

Should they stay the fastest method of acquisition? Absolutely. 

But alternatives (at a slower acquisition rate) are not a bad thing. 

Those who feel forced to play Kahl because of the shard. Well, they are the same as those crying over being "Forced" to adhere to Deep Archimedia's challenge requirements.

To be blunt...that a mental issue. You feel forced because you want the loot but you aren't being forced at all. You can run Deep Archimedia without all challenges. 

You can skip Kahl as most only care for Tau Forged not Normal Shards. 

IE: The fact you can't resist the incentive is on you.

But because you can't resist it, you advocate for its removal to force others into your idea of what their daily play should be. 

The hubris is staggering.

On 2024-03-07 at 5:57 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

Don’t lump me in with any section of the community besides the ones you have evidence for.

Understood.

On 2024-03-07 at 5:57 AM, sunderthefirmament said:

I don’t play netracells on public,

Hmm...

Edited March 8 by Aerikx

[sunderthefirmament]

59 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

And why don't you play Netracells on public? You seem to desire that others play Warframe your way and not have any alternative method/gameplay style.

 

This doesn’t make any sense.
 

I already stated why I don’t play netracells on public. I’ve read too many complaints about people not killing in the circle, along with host migration potentially forcing you to redo it. 
 

You seem to have this perception of me as a control freak who dictates how others should play. That’s simply inaccurate.  Do you think I would subject myself to others killing outside the circle and needlessly dragging the mission on just so I could attempt to correct their behavior in the chat?  Why on earth would I do that when solo / clan play is right there and invariably much faster?

[SneakyErvin]

49 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

If I recall the Cavia store, you unlock 1 weapon (that hammer), 1 frame, and then the arcanes and adapters.

Where Kahl unlocks 3 Weapons, 1 Warframe, the useless Archon Mods (Seriously DE. These need a rework, yesterday.), some cosmetics, and of course an Archon Shard.

Your comment goes into what I was suggesting when I brought up how the Expansion/Update has altered Kahl's role as many here often take posts too literal. 

Kahl's weekly puzzle challenge (cause DE failed to capture what everyone liked about Kahl in TNW and wanted from future Kahl content. *Twitches as he tries hard not to rant on that tangent*) was part of the former endgame loop (unless you count the Duviri expansion/side-pansion...Duviri really complicates things...) where as now what you say is partially true. 

Kahl is somewhat out of place because the narrative has shifted away from Narmer entirely. However, as a weekly challenge, much like how The Circuit's Incarnons weapons are, his content is still relevant and part of the late game gear acquisition loop. 

Reset hits, you knock out Kahl, hunt down an Archon, make your Circuit picks, and run your Netracells while simultaneously working on Nightwave.

Except it isnt as simple as the store. Not only does the store provide alot more (the arcanes alone), you also have everything you get from the bounties and missions themselves as you farm for that potential standing to grab the shard. In addition to having the option to level items and getting your operator focus etc. Something you get nothing from while doing Kahl.

Kahl isnt out of place due to the narritive, he's out of place because he has no progress tied to him. We dont level him, we cant costumize him, we cant improve him and the only thing he provides for the rest of the game is one single shard per week. Circuit isnt comparable, since you get things for the rest of the game, can level things from the rest of the game, knock out nightwave acts and so on. It's also limited, so we dont need to do it every week once we have what the mode provides. Kahl requires us to go out of our way just to be able to get the currency to buy 1 single thing and to flip a new mission for the next week.

1 hour ago, Aerikx said:

If Kahl is disrupting then so is The Circuit and I don't see anyone asking for Incarnons to be moved or shifted somewhere. 

They are both tied to content islands. (That said I do NOT want Kahl to be linked to Cavia or anything. Let him fight Narmer, leave it at that.) with Incarnons being even more disruptive as they not only require playing an entirely different game *ahem* I mean game mode, but they require diving into Steel Path. 

That said, his content's role (much like The Circuit) was/is to gear up/progress players so that they can move onto the current endgame activities. (Normal Circuit helping newer players acquire all manner of gear and Steel Path unlocking late game weapons)

Removing the shard without replacing it with some relevant items will just end up with unprepared players being thrown into new content and create another Fortuna scale debacle. 

For example...

The Fortuna Intro quest was a newbie slayer/Player retention nightmare.

From the enemies in Orb Vallis being far too much for New Players (even some veterans hated the Fortuna enemies.) to handle, to the quest missions (the mobile defense & defense missions specifically) annihilating new players, to the Profit Taker obliterating them during it's introduction.

If memory serves me right DE has toned this quest down multiple times, and either locked it off, or made it optional now because it was essentially a hard wall that made new players quit the game in high numbers. IE: The Gear Check/Difficulty jump was too much.

I like to bring this up because this also happened with Zariman content and seems to be happening with Whispers as well. 

Which tells me, there is a progression step missing. That or...*facepalms* they need to tone down Whispers content. 

Unlike other tilesets, Whispers content is large, expensive, has endlessly spawning enemies (even in Exterminate), hidden collectibles that often require parkour skills (let's not talk about how long I watched a squad struggle to grab 1 Voca located on a pipe), 

As for his gameplay not counting towards Nightwave...

Kahl would serve a Nightwave Cheese for some challenges. (honestly I think playing as him SHOULD count as the number of challenges he'd be functioning as a cheese for are slim but I get why they made the decision). 

I see Kahl as a good way to speed up that process as it's content everyone can do, and it's content everyone can do on their own time, no carrys or premades required, no need to farm and empower random vehicles/flavor of the quarter items (Railjack/Necramech/K-Drive/Heavy Weapons). 

Well no. Read what I said above about it. In addition to that it isnt a content island. I use the rest of the game when I run the circuit, I dont do that with Kahl since Kahl is Kahl and just Kahl. No frame, no guns, no mods, no operator, no companion, no gear and so on. The circuit then rewards me with things I can use in the rest of the game.

I dont see how moving the shard from Kahl to Cavia without replacing it with something else on Kahl will result in unprepared players? Cavia is accessible early on, you dont need anything specific to run the labs etc. Seems like you are completely ignoring what is required to actually use the shards in the first place. You need mastery 8 (not a feat in itself but...) and you need to have done large parts of Deimos since you need the segment from Son. Anyone setting their foot in the labs will have enough experience with open worlds at that point and gear to do bounties that the first few tiers wont be a problem to farm.

If anything Kahl is probably more confusing to be thrown into since you get a shard you dont actually know what you are supposed to do with. Since well, you need to have access to Helminth for it to be slotted/removed etc.

1 hour ago, Aerikx said:

You really think the Dev studio that made Duviri Paradox a new Starting Point for the game would set a normal Archon Shard (the power creep item they are notoriously and  infamously protective of) at that low a price? 

I'd like this to be true but we all know it won't be that way. 

Well yes, considering we already have a price on it based on time vs reward with Kahl credits. A shard costs 90, a run can give 105 (115 with caches), which takes around 15 minutes. That is what to be expected as a rough estimate when obtained from Cavia, 15 minutes for a shard on a weekly basis. Which also goes inline with Archons, that are roughly a 15 minute mission chain for 1 guaranteed shard, and the same could be said for Netracells.

 

[Aerikx]

2 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

You seem to have this perception of me as a control freak who dictates how others should play.

You literally want the content you don't enjoy but others do enjoy to be meaningless (removing the key/main reward). 

You're opposed to you having to run Kahl content for the shard.

But you have no qualms if others who wish to keep running Kahl for the shard are forced to run content they don't want to for the shard. (IE: Farming Cavia)

That's why I am implying. 

Admittedly we all have content we don't like. And admittedly, we don't know what the shard's price will be.

It's not going to be 15k as some has suggested in this thread. So for many players this is a heavy inconvenience. 

8 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

Do you think I would subject myself to others killing outside the circle and needlessly dragging the mission on just so I could attempt to correct their behavior in the chat?  Why on earth would I do that when solo / clan play is right there and invariably much faster?

Well you sure seem fine with wishing to flood Netracells and whisper content with folks who may or may not play in this manner. 

Once the shard is gone from Kahl and moved to the Cavia what do you think will happen to Netracells and related content?

But naw...

Take the shard away from others, put in my preferred content and screw em. I don't play with em. Not my problem.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Aerikx said:

Once the shard is gone from Kahl and moved to the Cavia what do you think will happen to Netracells and related content?

Why are you refering to Netracells due to a move of the shard from Kahl to Cavia? You're aware that the shard wont require Netracell gameplay right? So that "related content" will uhm stay the same, since the shard will be obtained through the trivial activity that is bounties, which can be publicly ran to help those not up for T5 yet to get the shard asap anyway by getting helped by other random people.

[Aerikx]

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well yes, considering we already have a price on it based on time vs reward with Kahl credits. A shard costs 90, a run can give 105 (115 with caches), which takes around 15 minutes. That is what to be expected as a rough estimate when obtained from Cavia, 15 minutes for a shard on a weekly basis. Which also goes inline with Archons, that are roughly a 15 minute mission chain for 1 guaranteed shard, and the same could be said for Netracells.

You're in denial.

Look at how DE prices just about everything in the vendors.

There is no way that shard will be below 30k and not require rank 5 to boot.

So for some players they are temporarily losing their weekly shard, and what was 15 mins is now a multi day ordeal. 

That is a problem.

And 

4 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I use the rest of the game when I run the circuit, I dont do that with Kahl since Kahl is Kahl and just Kahl. No frame, no guns, no mods, no operator, no companion, no gear and so on. The circuit then rewards me with things I can use in the rest of the game.

While you may use your personal equipment in The Circuit. The mode is detached from the game by being locked behind not just Duviri but steel path Duviri.

You may not use you Loadout in Kahl gameplay but the rewards do contribute to the expanded game as your arguments for The Circuit explained. 

Mods, Weapons, and yes The Shard contribute to advancement. 

As someone who carries far too many people through Archon Hunts. Often hearing how relieved many are that they have Kahl to boost them (the shard) is nice. 

Many of them don't bother with MR so I fear for the effect this change has on them.

1 minute ago, SneakyErvin said:

Why are you refering to Netracells due to a move of the shard from Kahl to Cavia? You're aware that the shard wont require Netracell gameplay right? So that "related content" will uhm stay the same, since the shard will be obtained through the trivial activity that is bounties, which can be publicly ran to help those not up for T5 yet to get the shard asap anyway by getting helped by other random people.

I referred to them because. Right now, folks see: Kahl, Archons, and Netracells as the only sources of Shards.

Once that shard is moved. Where do you think the bulk of players (who don't visit forums or read notes) will think the shard is?

[SneakyErvin]

28 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

You're in denial.

Look at how DE prices just about everything in the vendors.

There is no way that shard will be below 30k and not require rank 5 to boot.

So for some players they are temporarily losing their weekly shard, and what was 15 mins is now a multi day ordeal. 

That is a problem.

And 

Or you know... wait and see instead of imagining the world in a sea of fire?

29 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

While you may use your personal equipment in The Circuit. The mode is detached from the game by being locked behind not just Duviri but steel path Duviri.

You may not use you Loadout in Kahl gameplay but the rewards do contribute to the expanded game as your arguments for The Circuit explained. 

Mods, Weapons, and yes The Shard contribute to advancement. 

As someone who carries far too many people through Archon Hunts. Often hearing how relieved many are that they have Kahl to boost them (the shard) is nice. 

Many of them don't bother with MR so I fear for the effect this change has on them.

Which is different from everything else in the game how? SP is still interlinked with the rest of the game since it is a level modification on exsisting content, so the same applies to Circuit. Duviri also connects the rest of the game by using what we've earned elsewhere while providing us more to use elsewhere, so that also ties into circuit.

That isnt enough, it should go both ways and Kahl should have had a progression system tied to him aswell to go inline with what WF is. While I dont use drifter combat elsewhere the system is still WF since it has progress tied to it, some of which comes from the rest of the game and some that spills into the rest of the game. I can for instance use my frame to speed up duviri content, I can improve that further by leveling the drifter, which also improves him elsewhere in certain regards. Kahl has no interaction besides the shard.

If many of them dont bother with MR then this will change nothing for them. Since uhm they wont be able to use the shard anyways. And if they care about MR the only effect it will have is that they can now get the last few items from Kahl quicker since they wont need to spend the majority of their weekly earnings 90/115 on a shard. Remember before the credit boxes? We used to get 15 credit per week after obtaining the shard. That is alot of time to unlock all those mastery fodder items and optional mods. So overall a huge benefit with moving the shard. New players will be done with Kahl quickly and not run into a situation where they'll sit with piles of unusable credits due to only a single thing being evergreen.

40 minutes ago, Aerikx said:

I referred to them because. Right now, folks see: Kahl, Archons, and Netracells as the only sources of Shards.

Once that shard is moved. Where do you think the bulk of players (who don't visit forums or read notes) will think the shard is?

Wherever someone tells them it is. And any player caring the slightest about loot likely reads the notes provided to them in the game. And those that dont, well we shouldnt care about them to begin with. Those same players that dont read will also completely miss the new mode, which provides even more shards. Do you imply that we should not recieve that new mode with the new option to trade 2 cell runs for 5 shard chances in the new mode? Because that is your current logic behind the move from Kahl.

[Aerikx]

43 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Or you know... wait and see instead of imagining the world in a sea of fire?

Cetus, Fortuna, Deimos, Zariman, and just about every single Vendor store they added have shown a trend in how they price.

I'm not imagining a sea of fire. I've come to predict DE with frightening accuracy.

(My Duviri predictions bordered on clairvoyance.) 

And looking at the Cavia store, I'd say the shard will sit at around 50k and require Rank 5 hands down. It fits the pricing trend and item availability trend.

Shards would (and should) be considered on the same tier as the arcanes.

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt enough, it should go both ways and Kahl should have had a progression system tied to him aswell to go inline with what WF is. While I dont use drifter combat elsewhere the system is still WF since it has progress tied to it, some of which comes from the rest of the game and some that spills into the rest of the game. I can for instance use my frame to speed up duviri content, I can improve that further by leveling the drifter, which also improves him elsewhere in certain regards. Kahl has no interaction besides the shard.

Believe it or not. I agree on Kahl needing more Warframe systems. 

In fact, during Veilbreaker feedback I often posted ideas for them to make Kahl more core. IE: Giving him ACTUAL (Star chart like) missions not 3 rinse and repeat missions. 

I also was entirely on board with modding him and his arsenal (within reason as the lack of power l, much like with Drifter is part of the mode. It's a reminder of just how powerful Tenno are. Very...eh...Grounding you could say), and etc. 

47 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

New players will be done with Kahl quickly and not run into a situation where they'll sit with piles of unusable credits due to only a single thing being evergreen.

This is why I advocate for putting other items in the store. Making it a sort of weekly black market/pity system store. 

Earlier I mentioned removing the shard and adding rotating Forma, Exilus Adapter, and Arcane Adapter slots (1 slot each)

This way, those who aren't quite up to snuff for current content have an avenue to gear up. 

Being able to run Kahl content then choose between scoring a Forma, Exilus Adapter, or saving up for say a Arcane Adapter would go along way. 

Hell, toss in Requiem Mods (cause the Fissures only takes place in Kuva Fortress so...Grineer theme) and Kahl becomes a nice RNG pity store for those who can't get Requiem Mods to drop. 

While I dislike removing the Archon Shard from the character who's life's mission is to make Narmer (and thus the Archons) miserable; I am fine with keeping his content relevant by making him a pity vendor, akin to Yonta, Otak, and Bird 3. 

But far too many just want to create a content isle and leave newer/advancing players high and dry. 

The mentality shouldn't be:

"Too bad. Go run public MM and get carried until your strong enough." 

Or

"Buy plat so you can trade and get strong."

There should be legitimate means to grow organically. And to take one avenue (which Kahl was) away and not replace it is just flawed. 

A lot of people forget that the Zariman is not easy content for many. 

For many like us, Zariman and even Sanctum are just a new Star Chart nodes. 

But more players than I even realized often reveal that Zariman was a brick wall for them. (With many dreading the Void Angels.) 

And they aren't sure how to progress past it. 

So when I see systems that offer them a pittance of growth vanish. I'm going to try and fight to keep it relevant.

I have to see if it's possible to keep it useful and not be another Archwing and Railjack.

(We can argue Necramechs...but I actually use mine to Solo Netracells and/or carry public squads when I'm too tired to talk and too lazy to parkour. So Necramechs are actually rather relevant and useful.) 

[Aerikx]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

Do you imply that we should not recieve that new mode with the new option to trade 2 cell runs for 5 shard chances in the new mode? Because that is your current logic behind the move from Kahl.

If you actually read my prior posts then you know I am against removing modes of play, I always advocate for having more options/alternative methods of play.

I believe in accessibility. Not restriction. 

And you are correct.

Many players will completely miss Deep Archimedia, if not be unable to play it outright. (Many can't even handle Archon Hunts or Netracells so Deep Archimedia is already off the table.)

Eventually the game will hit a very bad spot when all these new modes and the loot behind them become increasingly less accessible. 

Removing avenues to make those new modes accessible is not good practice.

[Jarriaga]

2 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Well yes, considering we already have a price on it based on time vs reward with Kahl credits. A shard costs 90, a run can give 105 (115 with caches), which takes around 15 minutes. That is what to be expected as a rough estimate when obtained from Cavia, 15 minutes for a shard on a weekly basis. Which also goes inline with Archons, that are roughly a 15 minute mission chain for 1 guaranteed shard, and the same could be said for Netracells.

Keep telling yourself DE will somehow keep a similar time investment ratio for one of the game's most prized items. The very same example you use indicates an Archon Shard costs as much as a Warframe BP (Styanax). By that logic we can expect Bird 3/Loid to sell them for 50K standing (Qorvex), or 2 days worth of standing grind for those who can accumulate 25K per day, and 3+ days for everyone else.

No way in hell captura scenes (45 for Chipper, 25K for Bird 3) or Necramech mods (28K Bird 3) end-up more expensive than Archon Shards after they're moved. You're just coping.

Edited March 8 by Jarriaga

[SneakyErvin]

19 hours ago, Aerikx said:

Cetus, Fortuna, Deimos, Zariman, and just about every single Vendor store they added have shown a trend in how they price.

I'm not imagining a sea of fire. I've come to predict DE with frightening accuracy.

(My Duviri predictions bordered on clairvoyance.) 

And looking at the Cavia store, I'd say the shard will sit at around 50k and require Rank 5 hands down. It fits the pricing trend and item availability trend.

Shards would (and should) be considered on the same tier as the arcanes.

Then you arent looking at the archon shard systems. The are all pretty much inline with eachother. Each try on a shard requires roughly 15 minutes of gameplay. And it looks like it will be the same for the new mode considering it is 3 missions in a row similar to Archons. Which would mean that we can assume the shard that is getting moved will retain that same time investment since we see it across all the modes that have or will have shards locked behind them.

 

19 hours ago, Aerikx said:

There should be legitimate means to grow organically. And to take one avenue (which Kahl was) away and not replace it is just flawed. 

A lot of people forget that the Zariman is not easy content for many. 

For many like us, Zariman and even Sanctum are just a new Star Chart nodes. 

But more players than I even realized often reveal that Zariman was a brick wall for them. (With many dreading the Void Angels.) 

And they aren't sure how to progress past it. 

So when I see systems that offer them a pittance of growth vanish. I'm going to try and fight to keep it relevant.

That will still be there. That shard will still be an easy access shard for those that cannot handle archons or netracells or Deep. I really dont know why you toss Zariman into it since this isnt Zariman. You dont need an operator for anyhting, unlike Zariman where you need it for Angels. Not that I can really see why anyone would throw themselves at Angels freely if they cant handle them, since they are an optional step because you can avoid Armageddon and any bounty that requires an angel kill.

Those that can make use of the shards in the first place have already invested time in Deimos, and been able to handle it. So placing the shard with Cavia doesnt really add to any difficulty or accessibility for anyone that can currently obtain and use the shard. Labs do afterall have some of the easiest enemies in the game.

Regarding Kahl overall. It would be a waste to add more to him. It has clearly not been a popular mode, no matter how they've tweaked it and added things. So spending further time on adding to it seems pointless, because if people wouldnt come back once per week for a shard, it is highly unlikely they'll run it for other evergreen rewards that can already be obtained elsewhere and are far less limited than shards. People have already stopped doing it even though they miss out on a shard, I do it simply because of the shard and really need to pull myself to do it each week. There is no way in Hel I'd do it for evergreens far more common than shards.

19 hours ago, Aerikx said:

Eventually the game will hit a very bad spot when all these new modes and the loot behind them become increasingly less accessible. 

Removing avenues to make those new modes accessible is not good practice.

That is how live service games work, they evolve and progress as do the players. And the avenue isnt removed, it is moved but still easily accessible to those that can actually make use of shards. You make it sound like it will be placed behind some hard mode, which it wont, it will be placed behind simple bounties. We just dont know if it will be a new bounty specific for it, or if we will use standing.

19 hours ago, Jarriaga said:

Keep telling yourself DE will somehow keep a similar time investment ratio for one of the game's most prized items. The very same example you use indicates an Archon Shard costs as much as a Warframe BP (Styanax). By that logic we can expect Bird 3/Loid to sell them for 50K standing (Qorvex), or 2 days worth of standing grind for those who can accumulate 25K per day, and 3+ days for everyone else.

No way in hell captura scenes (45 for Chipper, 25K for Bird 3) or Necramech mods (28K Bird 3) end-up more expensive than Archon Shards after they're moved. You're just coping.

It's almost as if they are different items, on different vendors, with different accessibility. The shard that is getting moved already has precedence when it comes to time-to-obtain that can be expected, since all modes currently offering shards, and the future one, all turn out roughly equal at 15 minutes. If this was an additional shard a higher cost could be expected due to the "luxory" nature it would have, but it is a shard moving from one place to another, a shard that already has a comparable obtainment time to every other method of getting shards currently. Looking at completely different items is pointless.

[Aerikx]

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

Each try on a shard requires roughly 15 minutes of gameplay. And it looks like it will be the same for the new mode considering it is 3 missions in a row similar to Archons. Which would mean that we can assume the shard that is getting moved will retain that same time investment since we see it across all the modes that have or will have shards locked behind them.

When the shard is moved and you are wrong. I will be here waiting.

The vendor shard will take much more than 15mins. You are hopelessly optimistic but at this point we'll just be arguing until we die of old age. 

I won't repeat myself on how they should update Chipper either.

Folks can comb through the thread. At this point...as you said:

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

That is how live service games work, 

But other live service games, will replace the moved item with something worthwhile as the old content is considered a step in the ever growing staircase of progression.

5 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I really dont know why you toss Zariman into it since this isnt Zariman

I mention Zariman because the majority of folks who support the shard move don't give two S#&$s about the players who rely on Kahl for their weekly shard.

They (including you) are out of touch with the casual/more populace playerbase. 

(You say Netracells and Archons take 15 mins for you. Well they do NOT go that quickly for others. Whenever I do a public Netracell, it's a 25min thing cause...well you know...the forums are full of what slows them down.) 

That playerbase sees Zariman content as "Difficult" so what do you think Whisper content difficulty is for them if the content below whispers is difficult? 

IE: I'm stepping out of my veteran bubble and keeping myself grounded by remembering that those who can't one shot level 300+ enemies actually find Cavia bounties to be very difficult. 

So DE took their weekly shard, locked it behind rank 5 of a syndicate that for them is like pulling teeth to rank up, AND now every week they have to suffer multiple bounties to buy it vs running 1 weekly mission. 

[(PSN)rexis12]

Honestly at this point why care? 

It's obvious at this point  that @Aerikx likes the Khal game mode, so it shouldn't stop you from playing it AFTER they move the Archon Shards to another place.

Because if the only thing drawing you to do Khal was Archon Shards, you never LIKED Khal in the first place you only liked the Archon Shards.

For a vast majority, Khal isn't a game mode people want, it's deeply unpopular and taking take to enhance that instead of anything else is taking away development effort from other more popular or more necessary parts of the game.

[SneakyErvin]

17 hours ago, Aerikx said:

When the shard is moved and you are wrong. I will be here waiting.

The vendor shard will take much more than 15mins. You are hopelessly optimistic but at this point we'll just be arguing until we die of old age. 

I won't repeat myself on how they should update Chipper either.

Folks can comb through the thread. At this point...as you said:

I've said that this should be the mark. But I've also said why it might be higher earlier.

One thing many people ignore with the move is that unlike Kahl you wont be starved on currency after the purchase based on how much can be obtained weekly. Kahl was 105, got "buffed" to 115 with a shard costing 90. With the switch to Cavia you have a cap ranging between 112000 to 231000 per week. So people can quicker make up for weeks they cannot play. Ontop of that there is also Voca to safe guard if they have even less time to play at a future date.

So the move is a huge benefit to most players and things shouldnt be designed around a minorty that practically skips to endgame. I would personally be willing to pay 50k for the shard without any doubt, since not having to do Kahl means that much to me, if not more.

17 hours ago, Aerikx said:

But other live service games, will replace the moved item with something worthwhile as the old content is considered a step in the ever growing staircase of progression.

Most often no, old content tends to die naturally without a need to move rewards, since they tend to be linear.

17 hours ago, Aerikx said:

I mention Zariman because the majority of folks who support the shard move don't give two S#&$s about the players who rely on Kahl for their weekly shard.

They (including you) are out of touch with the casual/more populace playerbase. 

(You say Netracells and Archons take 15 mins for you. Well they do NOT go that quickly for others. Whenever I do a public Netracell, it's a 25min thing cause...well you know...the forums are full of what slows them down.) 

That playerbase sees Zariman content as "Difficult" so what do you think Whisper content difficulty is for them if the content below whispers is difficult? 

IE: I'm stepping out of my veteran bubble and keeping myself grounded by remembering that those who can't one shot level 300+ enemies actually find Cavia bounties to be very difficult. 

So DE took their weekly shard, locked it behind rank 5 of a syndicate that for them is like pulling teeth to rank up, AND now every week they have to suffer multiple bounties to buy it vs running 1 weekly mission. 

Zariman is still completely pointless as an example when the shard wont be obtained from Zariman. And if Netracells or Archons dont take 15 minutes on avarage it is a player issue. It doesnt change the actual time you can complete it in if you focus on the objective and have an acceptable build. Kahl also takes far longer than 15 minutes if the player has the attention spawn of a toddler. The avarage is still 15 minutes. Just s how a capture mission that should take less than 90 seconds can end up going on and on since people do things that dont benefit the objective.

Whispers is only 5 levels above the Zariman and with far more forgiving enemies and far more forgiving mission types. So that people have issues with Zariman it doesnt mean there are issues with Whispers. There are no Thrax in Whispers, there are no Angels, you also dont face Corpus or Grineer. There are for instance 3 missions on the Zariman where you cannot avoid Thrax, one where they can destroy the objective, and in the others aside from Armageddon you will also likely run into Thrax. Then you have the bounty objective that may include Angels. So a player without a decent operator will struggle in Zariman.

In Whispers you face robodogs and mechs along with the pebble people, while most of it is melee based. The one thing a new player might want to avoid are bounties with the objective to destroy Voidrigs, since those cannot be avoided in the mission unlike those that a Culverin might try to summon normaly. So it is really just about paying attention to avoid the greatest risk the content has to offer.

Exaggerating and throwing in the number 300+ is disengeneous. At most a player needs to combat level 120 enemies to gain standing. And there is nothing that says you must 1HK things to be successful in the mission. And the quest gives everyone a weapon that can clear those missions without trouble i.e the Grimoire, that even with a build mostly focused on utility wrecks the mechs and pebble people in the highest bounties quite easily. Plus, since we are looking at MR8 as a practical requirement, they have access to a multitude of weapons that will make easy work of the enemies in that content. And this is if we ignore that Alchemy exsists, which gives every player access to AoE damage that effectively wipes out the enemies in those bounties no matter the level. So there will always be an option for anyone to trivialize these bounties and make up for whatever weaknesses they have in their loadouts at the time.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

I breeze through kahl missions just fine but now with no archon shards to earn kinda don't have any reason to play them anymore aside maybe nab a archon mod and max it out and sell it off. Hope there's something to grind for out of kahl i'll take relic packs or kuva or just give us something. 

[(PSN)Supertiger34]

I've only just started on the kahl missions but I'm not really having any trouble with them but maybe that's because I played several hours of assassin's creed games prior to Warframe it might be nice if they put archon shards available in fortuna, Cetus, cavia, and kahl and maybe any other place they can think of.

[Berzerkules]

On 2024-03-09 at 11:50 AM, Aerikx said:

(You say Netracells and Archons take 15 mins for you. Well they do NOT go that quickly for others. Whenever I do a public Netracell, it's a 25min thing cause...well you know...the forums are full of what slows them down.) 

That playerbase sees Zariman content as "Difficult" so what do you think Whisper content difficulty is for them if the content below whispers is difficult? 

IE: I'm stepping out of my veteran bubble and keeping myself grounded by remembering that those who can't one shot level 300+ enemies actually find Cavia bounties to be very difficult. 

There is no way it takes you 25 minutes to pug a netracell run if you're one shotting lvl 300 enemies. It's like 10 min tops solo, 15 in pubs if someone is killing outside of the circle. 

[sunderthefirmament]

5 hours ago, (PSN)Supertiger34 said:

I've only just started on the kahl missions but I'm not really having any trouble with them but maybe that's because I played several hours of assassin's creed games prior to Warframe it might be nice if they put archon shards available in fortuna, Cetus, cavia, and kahl and maybe any other place they can think of.

It’s not the difficulty and it never has been. It’s the tedium. There isn’t any meaningful variation, and our vast and diverse arsenals don’t come into play, so it gets stale very fast. 
 

Most enemies can be ignored. HP regenerates faster than most enemies can harm you. Before the QOL updates, the only challenge in the various “challenges” was getting lucky with the egg hunt spawns. Even the insta-fail stealth portions only require a small degree of memorization… less now that we have enemy radar. 
 

Archon shards are still the new hotness, and are about to be in greater demand than ever with the ability to combine them to form tauforged. I’m glad DE seems to be carefully considering what content they want to lock them behind.  They have to be careful not to burn people out on a particularly boring and vapid treadmill like Kahl.  Obviously we don’t know the exact cost in Cavia standing, so I’ll withhold judgment until we do. But I’m overjoyed that Kahl will now be a grind with an endpoint. And for those who truly enjoy him, they can play him for fun and profit by selling archon mods. 

[SneakyErvin]

9 hours ago, Berzerkules said:

There is no way it takes you 25 minutes to pug a netracell run if you're one shotting lvl 300 enemies. It's like 10 min tops solo, 15 in pubs if someone is killing outside of the circle. 

Yep this. Made sure to check today when I ran Netracells and it ranged from 9-11 minutes all depending on how far I had to travel between PCs and Netramites during the mission. Might be a bit slower if someone has less gear options, but no more than 15 if you are geared acceptably. 

The only thing I can think of that would slow down a mission to 25 minutes is a braindead Saryn spreading spores waaaay out the cirlce, or he had some bad run ins with Dual Ichor users prior to the interaction with Influence got fixed. Since I #*!%ed myself over with that during a run aswell.