Taking ARCHON SHARD off should be free by now!

[CephalonOlphus]

6 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

I can give too many examples from my favorite builds where shards play crucial role and top notch enable performance that new players can only dream of. A warframe that was a 1-shot victim in SP yesterday becomes a rambo thanks to shards that can "suddenly" facetank the opponents!

Give me any example where these benefits aren't possible with mods first. Like i said shards are there to FINISH builds, rarely do they create them.

A good majority of my builds don't even USE shards and still perform fine.

[Deputy-Facepain]

30 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

not at all! Shards give the new games extremely big advantages: regardless of damage and, above all, defense!
It shouldn't be the case that new players waste so much mats on something like a leg4 account!

The helminth, and everything it can do; has always been geared towards long term players. Just because they’re powerful, doesn’t mean they need to be overly accessible to newer players. Giving invested players a small advantage like this makes sense to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️ No one’s even mentioned the Stella cost, something you have to spend a lot of time framing to fuse shards anyways. I get road blocked by that, more so than the bile costs. 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

1 hour ago, 16Bitman said:

DE's main goal isn't to steal your bile, they want you to login every week and invest into your aresenal for EDA. If they make it free, you could argue that using your shards is just a very tedious modding system and you should just be allowed to use your 5 Tau reds on all your builds at once. This would make gathering more shards worthless to many people, the most invested players already have enough to create 5 taus of each type.

Thanks, this is exactly why Shards are so expensive to move around, otherwise 5 tau of each and you're done forever with the Shard grind, most players probably wouldn't even bother beyond 5 red tau as you suggest. That said, screw Bile, I hate Bile, and I know DE makes Bile as annoying as possible on purpose, requiring feeding only the most annoying resources, a huge Bile sink on popular abilities like Roar and Nourish, another huge Bile sink with the Shards...

[RichardKam]

Play railjack and hoard ticor plates!

Anyway, who care about archon shard nowadays? They were completely powercrept and irrelevant after incarnon shield gating rework companion rework and melee arcane.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Deputy-Facepain:

The helminth, and everything it can do; has always been geared towards long term players. Just because they’re powerful, doesn’t mean they need to be overly accessible to newer players. Giving invested players a small advantage like this makes sense to me. 🤷🏻‍♂️ No one’s even mentioned the Stella cost, something you have to spend a lot of time framing to fuse shards anyways. I get road blocked by that, more so than the bile costs. 

However, I see new players in the supposed "end content" (note bracket). and we're all in the same boat here. For me, a lvl 16 account is also a new player.
and new players are at an extreme disadvantage. Additionally, there are no catch-up mechanics for new players. except maybe normal circuit.

And who wants to spend the entire game in SP Circuit reviving...? Or are you happy when new players leave the game after the first round?...
--> in the end it affects us all!

and the designers are definitely too lazy to think. Otherwise a mats cost scaling with mastery rank would have been programmed for Helmith long ago. like in other games.

[SneakyErvin]

20 minutes ago, CephalonOlphus said:

Give me any example where these benefits aren't possible with mods first.

On practically any low armor frame since mods are percent based increases versus flat armor increases from shards. You will never be able to mod to get up to 1125 additional armor on a low armor frame.

[CephalonOlphus]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

On practically any low armor frame since mods are percent based increases versus flat armor increases from shards. You will never be able to mod to get up to 1125 additional armor on a low armor frame.

I'm not talking about just armour but tankiness in general. But then we also have Health Conversion which gives a greater bonus than 5 Tau Azures (1,125 from shards vs 1,350)

Shards at best replace  2-3 optional mods for late game builds. They should NEVER be though of as a requirement, just an extra bonus.

[SneakyErvin]

12 minutes ago, CephalonOlphus said:

I'm not talking about just armour but tankiness in general. But then we also have Health Conversion which gives a greater bonus than 5 Tau Azures (1,125 from shards vs 1,350)

Shards at best replace  2-3 optional mods for late game builds. They should NEVER be though of as a requirement, just an extra bonus.

Health Conversion doesnt work for all frames that may want to go a face tank route. So shards are a requirement if you want to play a certain way, ways you couldnt properly play before. Ways unavailable earlier, that made some frames overlooked due to having very narrow styles of play. I dont think they are required to beat any content, they are however required in order to get people to play certain frames to clear that content. I can only go to myself. I'm not fond of shield gate gameplay, hence why I rely on tanky frames for the most part unless they come with innate high shield replenishment methods, like Protea for instance. The shards have opened up alot of new option for me since I can now health tank with those frames I otherwise would barely touch. That said, there are some squishy frames I instead use Helth Conversion on, since they can utilize it well in my builds for them.

So it isnt as clear cut to say one is better than the other, it is the combination of both systems that make up the final value in each on every individual frame or build.

[-ShadowRadiance-]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)K1jker said:

Yeah the cost still sucks.. especially when primes come out, OBVIOUSLY I want to switch to the upgraded Warframe.. that's removing 5 shards in the worst case.

Really annoying 

The next upcoming primes will hurt like xaku, sevagoth etc. 

It didnt hurt at all for me doing protea cause i simply anticipated this.

1 week b4 protea P i ripped all my shards out of regular protea over 3 days. All it cost me was 12 argon crystals and 20 voidgel.. which is nothing..

Its called planning.

The only thing that was pricy was the stella used in uppgrading my normal shards in protea into tau.

 

Will do the exact same for upcoming primes 1 week in advance.

Il come into the primes with maxed helminth resources.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

Health Conversion doesnt work for all frames that may want to go a face tank route. So shards are a requirement if you want to play a certain way, ways you couldnt properly play before. Ways unavailable earlier, that made some frames overlooked due to having very narrow styles of play. I dont think they are required to beat any content, they are however required in order to get people to play certain frames to clear that content. I can only go to myself. I'm not fond of shield gate gameplay, hence why I rely on tanky frames for the most part unless they come with innate high shield replenishment methods, like Protea for instance. The shards have opened up alot of new option for me since I can now health tank with those frames I otherwise would barely touch. That said, there are some squishy frames I instead use Helth Conversion on, since they can utilize it well in my builds for them.

So it isnt as clear cut to say one is better than the other, it is the combination of both systems that make up the final value in each on every individual frame or build.

I've mostly been playing with Nekros since 2013 and this is the only Warframe where the mod was permanently installed.
NOWHERE else is the mod in there. Because otherwise it's the last piece of trash and other warframes don't have enough mod space! especially after the helmith release!!!!!!!!!!1

And I never liked Shield Gate either. my favorite was always health+armor.
And thanks to shards, even Umbra Excalibur with his sword has become my favorite. When I see him in SP circuit, I always look for a group in the chat for 14+ rounds. just have fun with it.

[SneakyErvin]

1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:

I've mostly been playing with Nekros since 2013 and this is the only Warframe where the mod was permanently installed.
NOWHERE else is the mod in there. Because otherwise it's the last piece of trash and other warframes don't have enough mod space! especially after the helmith release!!!!!!!!!!1

And I never liked Shield Gate either. my favorite was always health+armor.
And thanks to shards, even Umbra Excalibur with his sword has become my favorite. When I see him in SP circuit, I always look for a group in the chat for 14+ rounds. just have fun with it.

Yeah I use it on uhm two frames atm iirc. And that is Nekros and then my Fractured Blast Dagath. Used to use it on Nezha aswell, but with SP it is pointless because you can get Halo to high values by soaking damage, and I've stopped using his augmented chakram aswell, so not a floor filled with orbs anymore.

The shards give really great value.

[PublikDomain]

All the removal cost does is stile experimentation. It's an idiot tax paid for trying new things. When DE adds the new Cold damage rework am I going to change my Toxin Shards and go back to my pure-Cold build? #*!% no. I already paid the idiot tax switching from my old build to be disappointed by the Toxin Shards. If I have to pay every time I want to change the element on my gun I'm just not gonna bother.

They really should be treated like Arcanes. Arcanes were once permanent installations on cosmetics, which sucked, then semi-permanent installations on cosmetics with a costly removal, which still sucked, then non-permanent items like mods which can now be freely swapped and shared, which is great! It's almost like we've been over this before...

[pinkxblack]

On 2024-05-05 at 3:49 PM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Thanks, this is exactly why Shards are so expensive to move around, otherwise 5 tau of each and you're done forever with the Shard grind, most players probably wouldn't even bother beyond 5 red tau as you suggest. That said, screw Bile, I hate Bile, and I know DE makes Bile as annoying as possible on purpose, requiring feeding only the most annoying resources, a huge Bile sink on popular abilities like Roar and Nourish, another huge Bile sink with the Shards...

so you still think this crappy design is justified till these days? btw all abilities you only paid once as frames themself and you can remove them for FREE you know...

 

On 2024-05-05 at 5:12 PM, PublikDomain said:

They really should be treated like Arcanes. Arcanes were once permanent installations on cosmetics, which sucked, then semi-permanent installations on cosmetics with a costly removal, which still sucked, then non-permanent items like mods which can now be freely swapped and shared, which is great! It's almost like we've been over this before...

that shows DE never learn a lesson, or they just love torturing people.

[UnstarPrime]

9 hours ago, pinkxblack said:

we should be able to take all stones from frames for free, otherwise we will stuck on regular stones for a long time because most players dont have enough rare resources to feed HELMINTH

From a game design standpoint, there needs to be some cost to moving Shards; if there's not, then players would be incentivized to just get 5 of each shard and then move them around to whatever frame they are currently playing; this would in effect make Shards into a more cumbersome mod system.  To prevent this, there's a cost associated with moving Shards, which encourages players to thoughtfully pick and choose which frames get what Shards.

Personally, I think it was an interesting choice for DE to have the cost come from removing a Shard rather than attaching a Shard.  It's more common for systems like this to charge upfront, making this a bit of an outlier.  I think DE chose this specific design because mathematically it benefits the player, in effect making the "first attach free".  With this system, you never get charged unless you want to undo a choice you made, meaning that on average players will be charged less (compared to a system that charges at the time of attaching) while still having an impediment to Shard swapping.

But players don't generally feel math.  Meaningful stretches of time separate the moments when we decide to attach a Shard and when we decide to remove it.  And that's one of the downsides of paying to undo rather than paying to do: the cost is there to incentivize thoughtful doing, but we only pay the price when we undo...and that feels bad.  If the cost was associated with attaching Shards, we would pay the price at the exact same time that we decided the cost was worth it to get the benefit of that Shard on our frame.

There are also other alternatives to what the "cost" can be.  Attaching or removing Shards could simply have a cooldown, because time is a resource; so maybe you could only attach or remove a single shard every 24 hours, etc.  Would that be a better or worse system?  It probably depends on who you are.  But there does need to be some cost, and it has to be steep enough that it doesn't feel trivial to most players.

As a late-game player, the current system feels pretty reasonable to me.  I naturally don't want to pay resources, and that incentivizes me to be thoughtful about where I put my Shards.  But when I do want to remove a Shard, a quick trip to Void Survival (a game mode that I enjoy) gives me the 3 Argon Crystals I need to fuel the removal.  And if I want to remove more, I can just wait for Helminth's hunger to maximize before repeating that process, or if I'm feeling impatient I can gather even more Argon Crystals to get it done ASAP.  So for me, it does feel like the sweet spot where the incentive is there but it's not a meaningful burden when I need to click undo.

But of course, that's just how it feels to me, and if it feels different for you, that's valid.

[TARINunit9]

I am indeed curious if Shards will go the way of Arcane one day...

The original Arcane helmets were cosmetic items with stats; these were discontinued quickly and I only have to mention them for completeness

When 8-Player Raids first dropped they added a new kind of Arcane, and you had to choose a cosmetic item to attach them to. You could change which cosmetic they were tied to but this cost an Arcane Dissolver item. Later the devs removed the Dissolver; you could switch which cosmetic had the arcane for free.

During the above paragraph, this meant a certain arcane could only be used on one frame at a time. You want Arcane Strike on both Valkyr and Rhino? Grind up two different Arcane Strikes.

This was later changed to the system we have now, where arcanes can be slotted into as many frames as we like just as mods can be

[pinkxblack]

43分钟前 , UnstarPrime 说:

There are also other alternatives to what the "cost" can be.  Attaching or removing Shards could simply have a cooldown, because time is a resource; so maybe you could only attach or remove a single shard every 24 hours, etc.  Would that be a better or worse system?  It probably depends on who you are.  But there does need to be some cost, and it has to be steep enough that it doesn't feel trivial to most players.

hands down! i bet most players will agree the time limit is a way better cost.

i believe they have responsibility to make it work better when they changed it into a combined system, if not then whats the meaning of grinding stones? i can get all stones i want but i can hardly use them, unless i have enough BILE resources to feed HELMINTH over and over again?

like i said before its absurd!

Edited May 5 by pinkxblack

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

As others have stated, this system is for late game players. 

Me and other players have been on 30 day boosters for years. If I have 40 Argon crytals from a previous run the past 2 days....giving those to the helminth isn't a big deal. 

I don't need to craft anything that uses Argon because I've been playing for 4 years now.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

13 hours ago, pinkxblack said:

Does anyone notice or care? since we got 2 mix 1 / 3 for 1 TAU combined system, we should be able to take all stones from frames for free, otherwise we will stuck on regular stones for a long time because most players dont have enough rare resources to feed HELMINTH... i think thats so unfair for us players who made those decisions before, or you people really expect us to do nothing about it?

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever? That is far more unreasonable than what DE is using as an impulse throttle. Control your moves a bit more until you gain more shards and know EXACTLY what you want or need on the frame. 

And please stop saying things like "punished". That's ridiculous.

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb (PSN)GEN-Son_17:

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever? That is far more unreasonable than what DE is using as an impulse throttle. Control your moves a bit more until you gain more shards and know EXACTLY what you want or need on the frame. 

And please stop saying things like "punished". That's ridiculous.

But he's right. Because old accounts don't care. but new people need these resources for construction. Therefore the whole thing is very unfair to new people.

[Joezone619]

I think its fine as is, maybe just reduce it to 20% so you can get all 5 shards off with full bile.

[Pakaku]

11 minutes ago, Venus-Venera said:

But he's right. Because old accounts don't care. but new people need these resources for construction. Therefore the whole thing is very unfair to new people.

It's not a system intended for new people in the first place...

[Venus-Venera]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Pakaku:

It's not a system intended for new people in the first place...

Who says that...?
and why do I see mastery rank 9 in SP circuit...?

[Pakaku]

19 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

Who says that...?

The resource costs that we're debating here in the first place, and the overall general steps it takes to start investing into shards

If a new player wants to get ahead of themselves there, instead of doing the easier parts of the game that are designed around early-game and cost less resources, fine but that's their problem

 

19 hours ago, Venus-Venera said:

and why do I see mastery rank 9 in SP circuit...?

Off-topic, but MR doesn't indicate anything except how much fodder you've leveled up and potentially trashed, and how many MR tests you've chosen to complete

Edited May 5 by Pakaku

[Arbitrary]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever?

Yes.

Arcanes were the late game system back in the day (and still are to an extent) and are a very powerful system (more so than shards). They had terrible QoL as pointed out earlier in the thread, which has since been changed to not be terrible.

I'd be completely fine with there being an initial (high) cost to make a shard slottable (call it shard polishing or something) with the condition that after I do that, I can swap the shard around freely.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

This is a very late game, very powerful system, and you want us to be able to be to adjust it without any payback or consideration of consequences whatsoever? That is far more unreasonable than what DE is using as an impulse throttle. Control your moves a bit more until you gain more shards and know EXACTLY what you want or need on the frame. 

Were you not here for Arcane Distillers? 🤔