DE: Reload speed and magazine size should be exilus mods. They do not "increase dps" in any relevant manner. See arguments below.

[Redrigoth]

If reload speed and magazine size mods were any significant dps boost, you would see them actually being on builds, but the fact of the matter is that they are negligible and almost never worth a mod slot.

This definition of "dps boost" that gets used is a bad measure because it just puts the user in an unrealistic scenario of standing in front of a single unmoving target dummy and eating numbers, and in that case, spending less time reloading counts as dps increase.

Realistically, people aren't firing nonstop, and they are reloading in between clearing packs or while casting a one-handed ability. And even in the case of a reload happening mid-combat, a reload speed mod may shave off 0.5 seconds off the reload time. Is that really worth a mod slot? Nope.

And then you have magazine size mods which basically just make it so you have to reload half as often which is essentially an average reload time decrease, so same thing.

A few specific weapons may see some improvement from magazine size such as tenet detron since it has mag dump mechanic. But the thing is, mag dumping on a weak target won't happen. It's just the odd strong target that you would mag dump and in that case, magazine size would only spare you a reload, for example by firing 12 shots at once rather than 6 then 6. The dps increase in the overall context is negligible. Kuva Hek would would gain an extra 2 regular shots before the alt-fire. That just feels nice but isn't that big of a difference.

If we use the above definition of DPS(fake single target scenario) then punch-through and blast radius mods should be exilus since they contribute no dps increase. But they are not, because we understand there would be multiple targets and the unmoving single target dummy eating sustained fire is unrealistic. So why do we not apply the same standard on magazine and reload mods?

Projectile speed on guns with falloff and beam length mods technically increase your dps by letting you waste less time getting near every target and more time just aiming and shooting in some direction. Should they be non-exilus mods "because they provide a dps increase"? No. It is a negligible side effect of an increase. These mods just make certain guns feel better to use. Magazine and reload speed would be the same. That 3.5 second reload gun? Slap a reload exilus on it. That gun with a magazine gimmick that is kind of fun but not good enough? Slap a magazine mod on it to make it more viable. That Vectis Prime that is much worse than Rubico Prime due to 5x shot combo requirement and headshot instead of crit damage scope, but has an interesting interaction with Primed Chamber? Slap the Depleted reload mod into its exilus which makes it more relevant. Or maybe you just don't feel like reloading as often.

Magazine and Reload speed mods are clearly exilus type mods. DE needs to ditch the "they are dps boost" idea and make them exilus already.

 

_{PS. Remove 2 shot limit per taregt from tenet diplos lockon mode. Just fire till magazine ends as long as trigger is held}

Edited June 18 by Redrigoth

[Gaxxian]

Supposedly, the Exilus slot purpose is to make the weapon feel better. In other words, to customize the experience. Thats why you can add +projectile speed, +max ammo or ammo mutation on them. Because those mods change the weapon feeling (without changind, directly, the dps).

Magazine size and reload speed mods are 100% inside this category. They are purely used to make the weapon feel better. 99% times you get more dps using another mod, but some weapons just are miserable without them (somebody would use a Tigris without reload speed?). They affect dps in long term (even it not so much as it seems, tbh), because you can sustain better your attacks, but not more than a +projectile speed that lets you hit more often or that directly increases your dmg over distance, and even then, their main attractive is making a weapon comfortable to use.

Also, we would have more options for Exilus. Rn its just ammo converter OR +range/proj. speed. Vigilante Supplies if you don't really need nothing but want to boost DPS (that one is WAY better increasing DPS than any +magazine or +reload mod). Thats it.

So, I 100% support this idea.

[Redrigoth]

On 2024-05-22 at 6:16 AM, Gaxxian said:

Also, we would have more options for Exilus. Rn its just ammo converter OR +range/proj. speed. Vigilante Supplies if you don't really need nothing but want to boost DPS (that one is WAY better increasing DPS than any +magazine or +reload mod). Thats it.

So, I 100% support this idea.

Don't forget the accuracy mods that probably no one uses. I don't even unlock the exilus on half my weapons because there just isn't anything worth it. I would unlock some of them for +magazine though.

Not sure I'll use +max ammo since ammo mutation technically provides more ammo in the form of refill and in the long run it provides even more. Maybe ammo pickups should refill a % of max ammo rather than some fixed number. Then you can use max ammo instead of ammo mutation in cases where you want to keep pumping the other ammo type into the holstered weapon rather than have them converted into the currently equipped weapon. You can use ammo mutation if you don't need the extra ammo front-loaded and if you don't care about the other weapon. This way both mods have a use case.

Edited May 23 by Redrigoth

[Hejirah-Umbra]

On 2024-05-22 at 1:16 PM, Gaxxian said:

(somebody would use a Tigris without reload speed?

Not if I used Gauss with Arcane Pistoleer

[Venus-Venera]

how is that supposed to work when even certain incarnon secondaries run out of ammo with warframes like harrow??? and I had ammo mutation and arcane for unlimited ammo after headshot kill!

and actually it's about time for a second mod slot like exilus. exactly for the purpose in the first post... because ammo management has been ruined beyond belief!

[Famecans]

the reload speed mod increases DPS in the long term as the reload time is a window of time where the weapon is not dealing damage, the magazine increase mod also increases DPS on weapons like Tenet Plinx and primary weapons with the arcana of warframe that increases damage per magazine size.

@offtopic: I feel that the magazine mod should increase Kuva Hek's damage, Kuva Hek's secondary fire is not triggering all the bullets in the magazine, Kuva Hek is not a burst weapon like Tigris so the magazine mod should increase the powerful shot consuming all the bullets in the magazine.

Edited May 29 by Famecans

[PollexMessier]

I've been trying to argue for this since weapon exilus released. They're two major qol mods that just cant be fit into most builds otherwise.

DE really, and I mean REALLY cant complain about minor dps increases like this from the exilus slot.... because vigilante supplies and projectile speed mods are exilus. And anyone that wants to argue that projectile speed doesn't increase dps... are just wrong. On top of what op said about it, It's reduction of falloff on projectile weapons means your weapon deals more damage at all ranges but point blank and past it's falloff cap, and it makes it easier to land shots. Not only is it a dps increase, it's a pretty significant one. So is accuracy/spread and recoil now that I think about it but those are a little bit less direct.

Magazine and reload just make sense.

DE's concern is that anything that increases damage will become mandatory, but these two just won't. There's a lot of weapons that ether dont benefit at all, or other existing exilus mods just fair better for them, and the two directly compete with each other (and another existing exilus mod I'll bring up) on most weapons that want them. It's just ridiculous we don't have this already.

And DE just keeps insisting on releasing more and more guns with borderline unusable 3+second reloads for absolutely no reason. This used to only happen with guns that had obscenely large magazines, now it's just every other gun DE releases. Ur not balancing anything with that crap DE, you're just making those weapons DoA. Also weapons with reloads that high actually turn "reload on holstered" mods into reload speed mods anyways. Plus if you have those mods and just get into the habit of swinging your mele between shots, you never even have to reload at all. Which is technically far better than reload speed or magazine size already, provided you just remember to do it. So just give them to us.

Just another thing proving the devs barely understand their own game.

Edited May 29 by PollexMessier

[Pakaku]

On 2024-05-21 at 7:16 PM, Redrigoth said:

If reload speed and magazine size mods were any significant dps boost, you would see them actually being on builds, but the fact of the matter is that they are negligible and almost never worth a mod slot.

Completely irrelevant. Reload speed and magazine size are still a DPS factor regardless of whether people decide to make room for those mods.

Reload speed: less downtime, more time spent firing, more damage

Magazine size: more shots to fire, more time spent firing between reloading instances

Edited May 29 by Pakaku

[Gaxxian]

hace 31 minutos, Pakaku dijo:

Completely irrelevant. Reload speed and magazine size are still a DPS factor regardless of whether people decide to make room for those mods.

Reload speed: less downtime, more time spent firing, more damage

Magazine size: more shots to fire, more time spent firing between reloading instances

Ammo converter: less downtime without ammo, more time spent firing, more damage

Vigilante Supplies: all the above + enhanced critical, even more damage

Sinister reach/Projectile speed: more range, more enemies hit, less fallout, more projectiles hit the enemies, more damage

Any exilus that increase precision: more enemies hit, more damage

 

Please, tell me how the actual exilus cannot already increase dmg.

Edited May 29 by Gaxxian

[PollexMessier]

11 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Completely irrelevant. Reload speed and magazine size are still a DPS factor regardless of whether people decide to make room for those mods.

Reload speed: less downtime, more time spent firing, more damage

Magazine size: more shots to fire, more time spent firing between reloading instances

That doesn't change the fact that we have exilus mods that increase damage already, and on nearly every weapon that benefits from any any existing exilus mod, these two would likely not replace the already useful one for those weapons. Anti recoil is only used on weapons where the recoil is so detrimental to the weapon it's practically mandatory. Any projectile weapon benefits too much from projectile speed to justify swapping it out with ether of these. Any weapon anyone bothers to go through the effort of fitting ammo mutation on probably needs ammo mutation. Silence is so situational people only use it for builds catered to extremely specific tasks. There's almost no case where an existing exilus mod gets replaced with ether of these two, they only work on weapons where the exilus slot is otherwise completely useless. The only exception being reload-on-holstered mods, which these two compete with but in such a way where it comes down to preference. Maybe also competes with accuracy on shotguns specifically which is a tradeoff between less spread (and thus more damage because more pellets hit) and just more uptime. And you know what all that means? More forma sales for DE because a lot of weapons that currently have no use for their exilus slot suddenly would. Literally benefits everyone, barely impacts power while making the game feel better to play, and doesn't become mandatory mods which is DE's main and very unfounded concern.

There is no logical reason against this, just DE stubbornly sticking to their bad decisions.

Edited May 30 by PollexMessier

[Joezone619]

Reload speed, magazine size, life steal, glaive ounce mods, status duration, and punch through are all categories that should be exlius mods. I'd even argue conditional mods like "on kill + crit damage" should also be exlius so long as they do nothing without the condition being satisfied.

Edited May 30 by Joezone619

[Redrigoth]

3 hours ago, Joezone619 said:

Reload speed, magazine size, life steal, glaive ounce mods, status duration, and punch through are all categories that should be exlius mods. I'd even argue conditional mods like "on kill + crit damage" should also be exlius so long as they do nothing without the condition being satisfied.

I can see lifesteal being an exilus. You'll be throwing away your tennokai for it so you will likely never have high combo multiplier unless you use melee crescendo. Seems like a fair tradeoff. Operator arcane can already heal frame instantly on transference so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Status duration too. Weapons that kill with status effects don't really care about status duration since they are built to do enough damage to tick enemies down within 3 seconds and status effects usually last 6+ seconds. Status duration is mostly for primers in some niche situation where enemies wont be killed right after being primed. It is decent with secondary encumber to make random effects last longer since you can't proc them on demand,

"on kill gain damage stats" however should not be. Realistically, on-kill conditions will be active all the time minus on some bosses unless they spawn enemies. That would make galvanized mods exilus too. This one should not be exilus unless the on-kill buff is of an exilus nature like "on kill gain reload speed"

 

10 hours ago, Famecans said:

the reload speed mod increases DPS in the long term as the reload time is a window of time where the weapon is not dealing damage, the magazine increase mod also increases DPS on weapons like Tenet Plinx and primary weapons with the arcana of warframe that increases damage per magazine size.

10 hours ago, Pakaku said:

Completely irrelevant. Reload speed and magazine size are still a DPS factor regardless of whether people decide to make room for those mods.

Reload speed: less downtime, more time spent firing, more damage

Magazine size: more shots to fire, more time spent firing between reloading instances

I already shut down these arguments in the original post and yet I still get people regurgitating that talking point instead of reading and learning that it is a horrible argument.

Also that primary arcane is trash. Leveraging it requires hardcore ammo dumping which is not sustainable at all and you need 200+ magazine for it to even give any relevant amount of +damage.

Edited May 30 by Redrigoth

[(MOB)drakefrost]

On 5/22/2024 at 8:16 AM, Redrigoth said:

If reload speed and magazine size mods were any significant dps boost, you would see them actually being on builds

Seems like this is the main issue.

I’d split this into 2 issues, Magazine size and Reload.

On 5/22/2024 at 8:16 AM, Redrigoth said:

Realistically, people aren't firing nonstop, and they are reloading in between clearing packs or while casting a one-handed ability.

I’d argue with this. Sometimes we need to pick one by one, and other times, dumping all ammo on single target. Hence,
Magazine does increase dps (especially burst).
On another hand, Reload does shorten time required to do consecutive “burst dps”.

On 5/22/2024 at 8:16 AM, Redrigoth said:

But the thing is, mag dumping on a weak target won't happen.

Reload time (and delay) exist. Hence, mag size determines how many target can be downed before reload happens (especially since nothing can be done during reload).

(Back to the issues)

As mid player (War Within progress), I’m seeing the problem of using Reload and Mag size (and fire rate tbh, but that’s for later as fire rate has its own place for slow weapon). I’d split the issue to 2, for battery and normal weapon.

• For Battery weapon, both Reload and Magazine size doesn’t affect recharge rate.
  Hence, magazine size is only useful for “fast dump” (max to 0) scenario, with moderate “filler activity” which duration gets longer the bigger magazine you have.
  On the other hand, reload only affect reload delay, thus dps boost it can give is way too small (I’ve put this in another thread).
• For normal weapon, Reload shorten “idle time”, a period when the weapon is useless, while Mag size increase “Burst dps” without any drawback.
  That said, main issue for both is that none of them increase “Total dps” (ammo restriction).

Hence, to let both being more relevant, instead of having both placed in Exilus, I’d rather have both of them being more relevant.
Aside from my proposal for Battery Weapon, I’d make them more relevant, for example

• Increase “Ammo Pickup” parameter proportional to Magazine size.
• Increase “Reload Speed” to meaningful amount

p.s. Regarding Vigilante Supplies being in Exilus slot, I have no objection since “the dps increase comes from the set parameter”.

10 hours ago, Gaxxian said:

Ammo converter: less downtime without ammo, more time spent firing, more damage

Vigilante Supplies: all the above + enhanced critical, even more damage

Sinister reach/Projectile speed: more range, more enemies hit, less fallout, more projectiles hit the enemies, more damage

Any exilus that increase precision: more enemies hit, more damage

Ammo Converter (VS is one with “set parameter”, explained above) does nothing when there’re plenty of ammo.
Range (including Projectile Speed) only increase “shooting QoL” (longer “safe distance”). Exception only for Infinite Punch Through though).
Precision mods only make sure the shot hits.

[Azamagon]

On Incarnon weapons, sometimes you have the option between magsize and/or reload speed versus the option of accuracy/-recoil/range.

And there, I almost always pick accuracy/-recoil/range.

Why? It's a far greater practical DPS boost than magsize and reload speed tends to be. Magsize and reload speed may indeed be a longterm DPS increase, but that is only really true if you need to reload midfight. However, we often reload a lot between fights too, so they aren't guaranteed DPS-increasers.

But accuracy/-recoil/range can quite often increase my DPS from 0 to 100%. For example, on the Lato Incarnon (which has a pretty chunky recoil), if I pick the -recoil evolution and use a -recoil mod in the exilus slot, I can have zero recoil. This means I can utilize 100% of my DPS at any range. If I instead hypothetically could pick magsize or reloadspeed in the exilus slot, and moreso if I don't pick the -recoil evolution on top of that, I can't use the full DPS at all ranges, only when I'm up really, really close to the enemies (which usually makes me wanna melee them instead anyway). Meaning, I would have less practical DPS with magsize/reloadspeed mods than with a -recoil mod, in most of the fights in Warframe. Because if you think about it, most fights in Warframe aren't in melee range, but slightly further out than that (unless you yourself engage in melee combat, of course).

So, yeah, technically and practically speaking, accuracy/-recoil/range options can be significantly stronger than magsize and reloadspeed mods - and those are already exilus mods! This is especially true in regards to reload speed options, as we already have useful mods and arcanes that help with reload speed alongside boosting damage (Chilling Reload, Shotgun Vendetta and Primary Merciless for example), and just stacking more of the same type of stat has natural diminishing returns anyway.

In other words, I'm all for making magsize and reload speed mods into exilus mods. If nothing else, it could be worth testing that for a while, and see what the general verdict would be after some time of playtesting.

[Pakaku]

13 hours ago, Redrigoth said:

I already shut down these arguments in the original post and yet I still get people regurgitating that talking point instead of reading and learning that it is a horrible argument.

DPS is all about math, and those mods directly influence that math in ways I've already "regurgitated", which is why they can't be exilus mods. You can argue all day about "what-ifs" like mod slot space or practical situations, but in the end it doesn't change anything about that math.

Also, arguing that some exilus mods do affect DPS isn't going to change anything about whether reload speed or mag size mods should become exilus. If anything, that implies there should be less exilus mods...

Edited May 30 by Pakaku

[PollexMessier]

5 hours ago, Pakaku said:

DPS is all about math, and those mods directly influence that math in ways I've already "regurgitated", which is why they can't be exilus mods. You can argue all day about "what-ifs" like mod slot space or practical situations, but in the end it doesn't change anything about that math.

Also, arguing that some exilus mods do affect DPS isn't going to change anything about whether reload speed or mag size mods should become exilus. If anything, that implies there should be less exilus mods...

But why? You're just accepting that exilus mods increasing damage is a problem to begin with. But is it?

If you're answer is "Because DE said it is" well DE doesn't even agree with that apparently because vigilante supplies is a very clear and direct dps increase. Most of the others you could say well they just weren't immediately obvious (which I'd disagree with, particularly when it comes to accuracy) but Vigilante supplies gives a direct bonus to critical damage.

"Power creep bad"? Well tough, cus that's always gonna happen. The game's monetary plan entirely revolves around power creep. In a few years incarnon weapons are gonna be completely outclassed by something else. And funnily enough, incarnon weapons which are the current highest end weapons in the game, are actually not impacted by these mods much. Reload speed affects their transformation time and that's about it. Which is an absolutely garbage mechanic that shouldn't be a thing to begin with imo. They'd be good for the ones which their incarnon form is worse than un-transformed but those are weird outliers that shouldn't even exist. And I already use reload-on-holstered for the ones where that would actually matter to just bypass the idea of reload and magazine almost entirely anyways. So it's not affecting the high end much at all, and mostly just supplementing issues with mid-tier weapons.

It sure as hell isn't "because mandatory mods" cus that's been discussed to death already, they wouldn't become mandatory at all. Exilus mods that are useful now will still be used on most of the weapons they're already used on over these two.

So what, exactly, is the problem with this idea? I just don't see one. And even if there was, does it out-weigh the benefits of: DE makes more platinum sales off forma and trading for prime mods, and we get to make weapons with awful magazines and reload speeds feel better to play? I doubt it.

Edited May 30 by PollexMessier

[Xylena_Lazarow]

Those mods like Seeking Force that only offer Punch Through should 100% be Exilus, they only indirectly increase damage. Your numbers don't get bigger.

While reload and mag cap are in fact a direct increase to sustained dps (via duty cycle), it's too marginal a gain for most players to bother modding for, outside a few weirdly designed guns. The general low power is probably the best argument in favor of making reload and mag cap into Exilus mods. I see no issue with making a very weak mod like Primed Fast Hands into Exilus, even if it does offer some direct gain in sustained dps.

On the higher power end, you could potentially argue radius mods like Firestorm should be Exilus since they also only indirectly increase damage. While not perfectly comparable to radial weapons, powerful AoE chain beams do get to use range extension mods in the Exilus slot.

[Redrigoth]

3 hours ago, Pakaku said:

DPS is all about math, and those mods directly influence that math in ways I've already "regurgitated", which is why they can't be exilus mods. You can argue all day about "what-ifs" like mod slot space or practical situations, but in the end it doesn't change anything about that math.

Also, arguing that some exilus mods do affect DPS isn't going to change anything about whether reload speed or mag size mods should become exilus. If anything, that implies there should be less exilus mods...

what math? The one where you are standing still in front of a dummy mag dumping on it back to back for 10 seconds straight? What even is your argument? It has no substance. Just parroting the talking point.

If you argument is just 'muh dps" for the sake of "muh dps" tell me why punchthrough and blast radius are not exilus? They are useless against the magic dummy we are calculating "muh dps" on right?

Should we make punch-through and blast radius exilus and make projectile speed and -spread and reload-while-holstered into non-exilus? If yes, what is the goal we are trying to achieve exactly?

[Venus-Venera]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb Xylena_Lazarow:

Those mods like Seeking Force that only offer Punch Through should 100% be Exilus, they only indirectly increase damage. Your numbers don't get bigger.

While reload and mag cap are in fact a direct increase to sustained dps (via duty cycle), it's too marginal a gain for most players to bother modding for, outside a few weirdly designed guns. The general low power is probably the best argument in favor of making reload and mag cap into Exilus mods. I see no issue with making a very weak mod like Primed Fast Hands into Exilus, even if it does offer some direct gain in sustained dps.

On the higher power end, you could potentially argue radius mods like Firestorm should be Exilus since they also only indirectly increase damage. While not perfectly comparable to radial weapons, powerful AoE chain beams do get to use range extension mods in the Exilus slot.

nah. still doesn't work. unless it's unlimited or incarnon.

as mentioned above, I'd rather have an extra mod slot that changes the behavior of the weapon. Punch through, reload, less damage but there's aoe etc.

[ChaoticOrderly]

I feel like the "Exilus slot shouldn't contribute to damage" argument goes completely out the window now that Tennokai exists which literally introduces a new interactable mechanic to massively increase damage and I wouldn't put it past DE to make those new semi-auto > full auto mods an exilus.

[Tiltskillet]

10 minutes ago, ChaoticOrderly said:

 I wouldn't put it past DE to make those new semi-auto > full auto mods an exilus.

It's going to be a setting, not a mod.  You may be thinking of the new mods they talked about that would add punch through and damage but disallow fire rate bonuses.  Plans can always change, but Pablo specifically said they wouldn't be exilus.

[Redrigoth]

On 2024-06-04 at 10:26 PM, ChaoticOrderly said:

I feel like the "Exilus slot shouldn't contribute to damage" argument goes completely out the window now that Tennokai exists which literally introduces a new interactable mechanic to massively increase damage and I wouldn't put it past DE to make those new semi-auto > full auto mods an exilus.

all mods contribute to dps in some manner even indirectly such as accuracy making more of your bullets land on the target. I don't know where this nonsensical standard of "reload/magazine affects dps" comes from. Its effect on dps is just as marginal and indirect as any other exilus mods. The larger impact they have is on quality of life rather than damage output. Being able to use some normal shots along with kuva hek alt-fire. Reloading something like gorgon quicker. Not having to reload low mag so frequently. It also means negative magazine like Depleted Reload ends up in the exilus slot as well which is good for Vectis prime if you pair it with primed chamber. That sniper pales in front of Rubico Prime but with Primed Chamber and Depleted reload in exilus instead of needing to waste a mod slot or get a hyper specific riven, then maybe it can become a viable alternative if you prefer a short reload per shot style rather than longer reload every 6 shots.

I want this movement to get big enough so devs realize magazine and reload belong in exilus so we can finally get that change in.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

Reload mods but you get extras with them :

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Chilling_Reload

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Radiated_Reload

If you're gonna use galv status mods and viral meta anyway...

 

Besides, I'd rather have recoil removal in there anyway, a missed shot is dps loss.

[Gaxxian]

hace 3 minutos, Fred_Avant_2019 dijo:

Reload mods but you get extras with them :

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Chilling_Reload

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Radiated_Reload

Not exactly the same as OP proposal, and more like a workaround, but those 2 are starting to be mandatory to not feel miserable using new weapons with that DE trend of making them with a base 3s reload.

[Fred_Avant_2019]

il y a 2 minutes, Gaxxian a dit :

Not exactly the same as OP proposal, and more like a workaround, but those 2 are starting to be mandatory to not feel miserable using new weapons with that DE trend of making them with a base 3s reload.

Not wrong, but the newer weapons also come with all sorts of extra mechanics that "justify" the reload duration. I don't mean "justify" to solidify that it's fair or anything, I kind of dislike it myself.

Merciless arcanes do come into play for shorter reloads too, 30% on 3s weapons cut it a whole lot.

I'm not against reload speed mods being slotable in exilus slot either, I just feel for some of these weapons you're still going to regret not having something else in there instead.