Immunity Vs Resistance

[S0V3REiGN]

I am completely fine with this approach, my only issue with bosses is their complete immunity phases. Makes for boring uninteractive gameplay. If you guys can change that I will be a happy Tenno.

[Blakrana]

basically like damaging the new sentients, the more you dmg them the more their resistance grows 

 

Pretty much. Same principle, this is just the Control side of it.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Question: If all it does is deal damage, what's the point of using things like Sonic Boom on a boss? It's not as though that ability has stellar damage next to our standard weaponry.

 

Instead of just completely negating the CC effect, how about replacing the knockback/stagger with the boss doing a block or bracing animation to avoid said CC effects? This provides a small window of opportunity like a stagger, but much shorter in duration and not quite as useful in most situations. Even so, perhaps a Banshee could use it to stop that one melee boss from landing an attack on a floored ally, or prevent another one from firing off a powerful attack. 

 

You could even play with the idea of certain actions making different bosses vulnerable to CC, so that learning when to use Sonic Boom for the best results is part of the boss fight as well. It would certainly be a start on adding some much-needed depth to Warframe's non-horde combat. 

[Latiac]

Let's talk about bosses with invincibility stages / Resistances though?

 

It's somewhat annoying having to bring a secondary weapon with different elemental mods to a faction they don't effect JUST incase stalker shows his face, It makes that weapon useless vs that faction, If you don't bring it well, Stalker is damn near impossible since every weapon will do tiny damage to him.

 

This isn't exactly a fun fight, The original stalker wasn't either, When I heard he was going to be challenging I thought it'd be better AI and more agile. Not invulnerability.

 

I agree with making warframe abilities more useful on bosses instead of being useless to some degree - But if it's anything like adding that damage resistance mechanic i'm strongly against it - It's more cheesy than invincibility stages.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Latiac

[Dawn11715]

thats nice, just the way it should be.

[DaftMeat]

But the Stalker is supposed to be scary that early on in game. It's that way so when you finally become powerful you can scream "REVENGE!" at the top of your lungs.

 

A clan mate of mine who was fairly new to the game told me he brought in 3 friends to try out Warframe with him. They got a Stalker spawn, and he team-wiped them. His 3 friends never played again. The game is challenging enough for beginners, it doesn't need an enemy that's balanced for end-game to constantly kill them before they've even maxed any mods.

 

Original Vanilla Stalker should be nerfed and made relatively easier for newer players to survive if not defeat; at least take away his player-teleport and allow people to run like the choice G3 provides. The end-game balanced Shadow Stalker should only be unleashed after players finish The Second Dream.

 

Two different Stalkers, for two different levels of play at least.

[Neofaucheur]

Sound great !

[mrecentric]

Sounds good

[Shreiko]

This is a nice way to approach designing bosses on paper, but can end up done terribly in practice if enough care isnt taken. I still think shadow stalkers sentient immunity is bad design because its an enemy you cant prepare for. The overall concept of him becoming permanently immune to damage types as you attack him is bad. There are times when Ive been leveling a single weapon and stalker came after me while I was solo and at some point I just wasnt doing damage to him anymore. I couldnt ignore him and complete my mission because I was locked in a room with him but I was doing next to no damage at all to him now and he had lost only half health. All I could do was flail about the room pointlessly shooting at him until I decided it was best to let him kill me. Please do not design anymore enemies like that and make tweaks to his damage "resistance"(more or less immunity).

[DiabolusUrsus]

*snip*

 

Agreed, but I'd suggest that it would be better to rework the way elements work so that they aren't divided up among the factions. Redesign elements and their effects so that they are legitimately useful in different ways against all factions, and require a shift in playstyle rather than the exact same thing but with fire instead of ice. 

 

At the same time, I'd also like to suggest that the Sentient damage resistance mechanic be reworked. Gaining a near-immunity to one damage type should go hand-in-hand with shedding immunity to another. Resisting slash? Hit it with puncture or impact. Resisting corrosive? Hit it with another combined element. 

[taiiat]

some steps forwards, but being more open still would be nice.

 

to take one of the examples, why would Shooting Gallery not cause gun Jamming?

why not... cause Jamming, but only once(boss can break out of the effect after a single 'jam' basically), and then the Lasso doesn't affect anymore(unless recast)? or something of the sort.

 

 

basically, go all the way and make sure that every Ability is useful in some way, just isn't useless or an instant win.

Edited February 4, 2016 by taiiat

[B0N3M4N]

Well, for first if we want to talk about resistances then I'd like to say that the CC on this game should be balanced too.

 

The problem is that when you get over a certain level enemies will pratically be walking CC turrets, a good example can be a Bombard Eximus, capable of giving Blast Procs, Slamming you to the ground and now he can also Slow you or Slam you away with his almighty 50m wall of fire.

 

Also there is a problem with a certain mod talking about CC *staring at Quick Thinking*. I mean 15 slots for getting perma-staggered when you get over a certain amount of damage won't really help to change how survivability mods are gonna be applied to Warframes, because this makes it unaviable over a certain level.

 

Also we do have to talk about cheesyness on this game, thing that changes from what playstyle you choose. If I want to make an example playing with Oberon/Banshee and so on will make the game way more difficult at high levels, while playing with Excalibur, Valkyr or other frames with "overpowered" abilities will make everything easy.

 

Now people will try to say about Nullifiers, but Nullifiers actually aren't punishing the last "Type" of players, but the first one, because they can't spam relentlessy their abilities on the bubble to remove it, also Nullifiers are broken with the simple fact that they do not only nullify every single power but are actually punishing players playing with Semi-Automatic or high precision weapons, like Bows, Snipers and so on.

 

There are many other things to be talking about(like enemies AI, damage and armor scaling and so on) but these are the focus points on what disadvantage a player to not play with the Warframe "Meta", and these for me are the ones that are needing to be fixed as soon as possible.

 

And this was my feedback about the incoming changes, I hope to see you think about those sooner or later for a better playstyle personalization for the Player itself.

[ChameleonDude]

B-but I like using speed Nova versus Lephantis! It makes whack-a-mole more fun!

[(PSN)Lilg31]

This is a step in the right direction. But as someone said several posts up, A.I. should have options to do several different things. Especially in different situations. 

 

Example- You hit a boss with Sonic Boom, he blocks the attack which may of prevented him from using an Ultimate. 

                But in another situation say, Banshee has no shields and half health. You launch Sonic Boom and the boss takes the hit being knocked back so he can launch his Ultimate to down Banshee. 

 

A Scorpion should probably only use her spear to grab someone low on health trying to escape to cover. Where as someone in her face or with full shields should have her launch a different attack. (Machete swing)

 

Last thing- Armor and Shields on the enemy should have more than 1 function. Armor should also decrease CC. Shields should also prevent status. Unless the status applies directly to health damage. (Slash, Toxin) 

 

Enemies with 90-100% armor should not be susceptible to CC. Once the armor rating starts to drop, the more vulnerable they should become.

The difficulty of Warframe is so laughable because of how easy it is to move the enemy how you want them to move because of CC.

[Volkovyi]

Speaking of consistency, What I would love to see and what really really needs to be implemented is a good, solid manner of a hierarchy of actions between the players and the AI.

 

What I mean by this is, a clear and consistent manner in which enemies, AI and the game's world are affected by the player's actions and skills. For example, approaching a Heavy Gunner too quickly will result in them doing a ground slam move and knocking down the player almost 100% of the time. We know this to be true. HOWEVER it appears that is almost all cases of action, the ground slam move takes precedence over everything else.

 

Ash's Teleport, which supposedly has a guaranteed stun effect and opens enemies to finishers, does not affect a heavy unit in the middle of their ground slam animation, or even before their animation. But that would be the perfect use and show off skill to use the ability in this manner. In my personal experience, I have had countless, COUNTLESS seemingly unfair encounters with this one single phenomena. I.e. Heavy Unit's ground slam effects radiating even after they are downed, ground slam effects taking place in the second after their death, heavy units teleporting from a ragdolled animation up to a standing animation to ground slam nearby players, Heavy Units ignoring 90% of abilities intended to halt them such as sleeping effects, freezing effects, stagger effects, knockdown effects, ignoring procs, and the list goes on.

 

So whats the logic behind a smooth, consistent, and precise hierarchy of actions? That so many other games have?

It is basically to reward your player's reflexes and skills and provide  a smooth, realistic flow of gameplay.

 

     If you give your players the tools, abilities, mechanics, to overcome a given challenge, for example Ash's Teleport says "guaranteed stun and finisher to teleport" and you have the challenge of "getting to a heavy unit before it ground slams" you will want to teleport to that enemy and see your ability do its job. But it doesn't? And then your players feel cheated or disappointed when innovative or quick thinking tactics go unrewarded or unfairly dismissed. And then you result to more common and easier ways of playing, such as "spam 4 on everything before they even have a chance to ground slam you" technique.

 

Something else that would be considered in the topic of a hierarchy of actions, it would be the topic of player input and the game's reaction to that input. I mean this specifically in cases where the player can not do anything better, or quicker, to improve the reflexes of this input even though that input is valid. For example, when you activate an ability, most of the time the effects of the Warframe's abilities take effect only after the Warframe's animations are complete. As a player, you can not speed up that animation whatsoever, that animation is the casting time. I believe some abilities should not have these casting times, so the effect takes plays immediately even if the animation hasn't caught up yet. Not all abilities, but some where it would be logical, and would not sacrifice the visuals for it. Or at least have the effects take place in the middle of the animation as a compromise. How often have I died in the middle of casting an ability that would have otherwise saved me, but a single stray bullet hit me towards the last few frames of the animation?

 

Another more benign example would be the mechanic of hacking. Let's say it is a clutch moment, a Spy Mission, its the last vault, no ciphers, and a teammate alarmed the vault and you have but a few seconds to manually hack the Vault. The hacking mechanic does not validate the input of the player UNTIL AFTER the "unlocking" animation that takes place about a second or two afterwards the player actually successfully completes the puzzle. So, that would mean, if you successfully completed the puzzle 1 second before the end of the timer, you would still fail the hacking process because the animation of the unlocking graphics would still be ongoing. For hacking the system should accept the input THE MOMENT the player completes the puzzle, regardless of the animation of the UI afterwards. Otherwise, your players will go unrewarded for their high pressure, moment of skill.

 

 

Many of you may be thinking, why bother with such technicalities? These points are only problems if you let it be a problem, you may say. You may say, don't get near the heavy units just shoot them from afar, use grenades, use CC abilities, use Natural Talent to increase casting times, place yourself behind cover until you recast an ability, do the hacking faster. Basically, just get good.

 

I despise this argument because it invalidates any form of discussion over design flaws. If everyone behaved that way, almost no problems or issues will ever be addressed simply because you can 'ignore the problem' or avoid it or do something else altogether.

 

 

If you have a house, with two bathrooms, and one toilet in one bathroom gets clogged. Would you unclog that toilet and solve the problem, or would you tell the homeowner "Use your other bathroom? Just avoid the first."

[Kontrollo]

Great news!

[Terumitsu]

I am unsure about this.

Sonic Boom does abysmal damage already so removing the CC aspect of it renders the power useless.

Honestly, the idea is interesting but removing CC is just removing tools from a player's kit.

While I think this is a discussion worth having, I am against this implementation of it.

As a note, this is mostly in the vein of Sonic Boom only as the rest of the ideas seem fine. Honestly I'd be fine if Sonic Boom ended up doing only a stagger as a 'breathing room' tactic and have the push and damage negated, really.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Terumitsu

[(PSN)Lilg31]

I am unsure about this.

Sonic Boom does abysmal damage already so removing the CC aspect of it renders the power useless.

Honestly, the idea is interesting but removing CC is just removing tools from a player's kit.

While I think this is a discussion worth having, I am against this implementation of it.

 

CC should not be able to render a boss useless. Unless you like playing games on easy mode. 

The way CC is implemented makes Warframe child's play. 

 

Look at games like Diablo 3, Mass Effect 3.. Those games can be pretty difficult even if you are geared well with -min/+max builds because of how smart the AI is and the balance of CC abilities. 

 

You can't CC armored enemies in ME3. 

 

You can't knock back a Rift Guardian and several Champions in Diablo 3. 

 

Therefore you have to think outside the box. Warframe.. you can spin your controller/keyboard around like a top and whatever button is pressed when they stop will render the enemy useless. 

[Sannidor]

Why Banshee nerf?

She's underplayed for a reason.

 

The reason is: there are better frames.

 

DE logic: nerf all other frames as well?

[Terumitsu]

CC should not be able to render a boss useless. Unless you like playing games on easy mode. 

The way CC is implemented makes Warframe child's play. 

 

Look at games like Diablo 3, Mass Effect 3.. Those games can be pretty difficult even if you are geared well with -min/+max builds because of how smart the AI is and the balance of CC abilities. 

 

You can't CC armored enemies in ME3. 

 

You can't knock back a Rift Guardian and several Champions in Diablo 3. 

 

Therefore you have to think outside the box. Warframe.. you can spin your controller/keyboard around like a top and whatever button is pressed when they stop will render the enemy useless.

Seems like I edited just when you posted there, fellow Tenno!

Now, I will say it has been a while since I played ME3 but I would swear that heavy enemies do suffer from CC but to a much reduced degree. I swear I remember that Biotic Charge or Pull or the like would induce a small but useful stagger on these heavy foes that your team could use or at least you could employ to slow their advance.

Basically, I dislike primarily CC skills having the CC aspect removed or utterly nullified but I would be fine with and actually encourage something to where they would still have a use but less as a 'lock down harder than Madagascar's boarders' and more of a 'I need room to breathe for a moment' when it comes to reducing effectiveness. That way they are still useful but not necessarily with the same potency.

[ToaSirian]

Nullefiers *COUGH COUGH*

[Qynchou]

Was hoping for normal units aswell, just not as much. You wont be able to balance a game around permanent room/map wide CC that some frames offer.

[(PSN)jFresh215]

shuriken doesn`t impale anyone........

Ash rework incoming? 

[Doom_Bunny]

Seems like I edited just when you posted there, fellow Tenno!

Now, I will say it has been a while since I played ME3 but I would swear that heavy enemies do suffer from CC but to a much reduced degree. I swear I remember that Biotic Charge or Pull or the like would induce a small but useful stagger on these heavy foes that your team could use or at least you could employ to slow their advance.

Basically, I dislike primarily CC skills having the CC aspect removed or utterly nullified but I would be fine with and actually encourage something to where they would still have a use but less as a 'lock down harder than Madagascar's boarders' and more of a 'I need room to breathe for a moment' when it comes to reducing effectiveness. That way they are still useful but not necessarily with the same potency.

Unfortunately no, only a few heavy units were staggered by biotic charge however it required a recharge and the stagger didn't last long. Pull did not affect any heavy units.

 

I do see that minimal damage abilities with great cc capabilities would be a problem, but removing the cc from affecting a boss does add depth to a boss fight as Lilg31 said. It prevents us from just wailing on them as we can constantly stun/knock-back by spamming an ability. Even if the effectiveness is reduced the power to spam the ability can keep the boss locked down.

 

Was hoping for normal units as well, just not as much. You wont be able to balance a game around permanent room/map wide CC that some frames offer.

DE can always rework those frames instead of making normal units invulnerable to certain abilities. It would be going too far to make normal units have the same defenses as a boss.

 

Vauban has the same problem as Frost did but you would also need to look at how many enemies he can stop with bastille.

Mirage has the same problem as Excal did except it extends over the entire map.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Postal_pat

[Rydian]

Honestly, bosses standing around totally invincible 75% of the time is much more annoying than powers not working on them.