New Prime Rewards Process: Double Grind Wall

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

37 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

in my opinion, it's not really any different than what we have now. we currently have a double wall due to the key system. you have a chance to get keys from missions now and then you have a chance at the prime part you want. 

ill wait a couple months to pass judgement (because im on console and have to wait longer) but as it stand now, i like where it is going and curious to how it will play out

Edited July 5, 2016 by (PS4)Elctrcstel

[PsychedelicSnake]

The general idea that seems to be going around at this point is: Lots of assumptions to be made, but little facts to be found. Will have to wait until it drops before we can sink our teeth into it to find out whether it is sweet or salty.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, (PS4)tpesconi said:

If the residual is always granted "for free", I agree, but if you have to choose between the projection reward or residual, oh my, I will burn my keys without doubt.

But like I said, let's wait the update and see like it will really be.

You get the reward, and then some residual essence.

Which is why they call it residual instead of a complete reroll.

[Lanadra]

Generally what I don't like about things like this is that by the time everyone concludes the old way was better, it'll already be at a point where the old way will never return.

[(PSN)tpesconi]

3 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

You get the reward, and then some residual essence.

Which is why they call it residual instead of a complete reroll.

The mechanics of trash a reward and get the residual is not impossible to happen (err... The Division!?), let's see and let's hope that you are right.

[(PSN)Cwellann]

As others have said, it's a double grind wall currently as well - especially with those T3 keys.  I'm cautiously optimistic, as while it's a rework, and therefore a chance to improve on what's there for us, it's also a chance to attempt to obfuscate changes that make it harder to obtain and continue the push towards encouraging RMT purchase of primes.  As the coin could fall either way, there's no real point debating over it, we'll just have to wait and see.

[taiiat]

i guess to keep it from saturing for Players without much experience... it could... be like the activation for Natah Quest?

where initially the Chance for the Quest triggering event to occur is low, but as you play the game, it eventually gets to 100%.
if Chances are to keep from saturating Players that don't know what's going on, that is.

[-Sandman]

Equal or greater grind but in a different way. Grind will never decrease, its pretty much the only marketing strategy for PA.

[motorfirebox]

40 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

From the recent devstream, it looks like tears will show up similar to syndicate missions. When Steve was messing around with the prototype starchart, there were seven Void tears in the alert section. Based on that, it doesn't seem like finding a tear will be a big problem.

[DxAdder]

Just now, GreyEnneract said:

You get the reward, and then some residual essence.

Which is why they call it residual instead of a complete reroll.

The big question is HOW much residue to move it from common to rare and how many items on that rare table.

Let's say you get one residue per projection used and it cost 20 residue to more it to rare and there are 5 items on the rare table you could burn through all your projections just to get one item. 

[GreyEnneract]

Just now, (PS4)tpesconi said:

The mechanics of trash a reward and get the residual is not impossible to happen (err... The Division!?), let's see and let's hope that you are right.

It was confirmed in DS76.

What you should be worried about is Forma rarity, Dragon Keys/Derelicts, and possibly Argon.

[Sajochi]

Just now, GreyEnneract said:

It was confirmed in DS76.

What you should be worried about is Forma rarity, Dragon Keys/Derelicts, and possibly Argon.

Argon is solved. We can do the void missions freely. They're part of the starmap.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, DxAdder said:

The big question is HOW much residue to move it from common to rare and how many items on that rare table.

Let's say you get one residue per projection used and it cost 20 residue to more it to rare and there are 5 items on the rare table you could burn through all your projections just to get one item. 

Even if it only adds 1%, it'd still be better than the current system.

It's not like you have to move it up to some "rare" tier to get a rare drop.

The residuals just increase the chance at a rare drop.

[PikeOrShield]

Projections = current void keys.

The grind is still the same.  What is it with you and doom threads?

[Tenno29543]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

if dats the  case then getting ducts would be as hard as a pig trying to climb a decently sized adult tree.but again there are a lot of different things to be revealed and they can make or break the system and if it's as bad as you described i would stop playing as well. because prices for parts would sky rocket and buying prime access is more of a must if you want things in a decent amount of time.

[Drufo]

Why? Currently, how do you get Void Keys? Doing normal missions, as random rewards. From this point it changes nothing. The only thing that changes, as much as I understood, is that with the new system you won't have to do just one mission type to get your chosen prime part, since the rewards are not tied to the mission type, but to your "equipped" Void Projection

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Oh boo hoo. It's not like you get a guaranteed key playing whatever missions we have now. No, only specific missions reward keys with a relatively high percentage, while most of them don't at all. Loot caves are a problem that need constant battling to prevent players concentrating on a handful of spots in the game world and burning themselves out faster for the promise of faster rewards. While there are active solutions to combat the issue(rotating out popular nodes), it's equally important to reward the time spent by the player doing a mission equally good or bad, modified slightly by the difficulty. DE did the right thing by apparently spreading out access to void rewards throughout the missions instead of providing only a few nodes with vastly superior rewards to every other. Is it less convenient for you to cycle through missions in search of projections instead of standing next to an excavator spamming Bastille for hours? Yeah. But that decrease in convenience also means less burnout and a lower amount of perceived grind.

Not to mention that you can actively improve the chance of your desired drop, giving you a feeling of progression towards your goal even if you don't get what you want initially.

The key motive for all those recent changes and nerfs is increasing player engagement, and you can't do that without shaking up the established ways of doing things.

[LSG501]

I'll hold off judgement until it's released and 'tested' but I know one thing, I will not be buying a prime pack for real money no matter what, they're just too pricey, and if this new method to getting void items ends up being too much of a grind then the odds are I'll not even bother with buying any more platinum either.

[chofranc]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

Is stupid if you think it for a moment, Projection= Actual Void Key, Void Tear=Actual Void missions, Projection need to be farmed and Actual Void Key too, so actually we have a double grind wall before update, a we will have the same grind wall but with better chances to obtain what we want, is almost the same.

I don't see what are you complaining, is the same system but with better chance to get what we want, i don't see the problem.

Actual system:

• Go and see if you are lucky to get a Void Key.
• Get the void key.
• Go to the void.

New System:

• Go and see if you are lucky to get a projection.
• Get the projection.
• Search a Void Tear. (We don't know to much how do we find this)
• Increase the chances to get what you want or simply enter and get a random prime part.

Is almost the same system.

Edited July 5, 2016 by chofranc

[Arkvold]

Let's look at the numbers and facts we know.

Current System

Get a void key from a normal starchart mission.  This can occur most commonly in Survival, Defense, Reactor Sabotage, Excavation, Interception, and Spy.  Rarely, you'll have a chance to get a void key from some other mission type, or as an alert reward, or from your syndicate standing.

Go to the Void and play your Void Key.  If it's Capture, Exterminate, or Mobile Defense, you recieve 1 reward, which may be either a forma blueprint, fusion cores, or a Prime Part.  If it's Sabotage, you can get a maximum of 4 rewards.  If it's anything else (Survival, Interception, Defense), reward amounts are only limited by your ability and willingness to stay and fight the ever-increasing scaling enemies.  You can get as few as 1, or upwards of 8+.

 

Proposed System

Gain a projection from a normal starchart mission.

Obtain 'residuals' to improve the drop chance of a specific item available from that projection.

Find a void tear and use it to charge your void key in order to access the void mission associated with that projection.  Complete the mission, and get the reward, limited to one reward per projection.

 

What's changed?

Well, we're now grinding for two things.  1 - projections, which is much like grinding for keys previously.  2 - residue, to influence those projections to give us what we want.

We also have to wait for a void tear that corresponds to the projection that we want.  Now, this may or may not be an additional timesink depending on how often relevant tears appear.

We're also getting fewer rewards per 'key' - just one per projection, instead of multiples based on mission type.  We do have the ability to influence the drop chance to get the thing we really want, but we have no idea how much we can influence the drop chance, or how much grinding (or what kind of grinding) is necessary to influence the drop chance.

Depending on the actual numbers, grinding out projections and influencing them sufficiently with residue may not be a problem.  DE would, however, have to make residue very readily available, and allow us to have a lot of influence over our projections' drop rates by using it.  I'm a bit leery of this, as it's very rare for an MMORPG dev to let you 'ask for what you want' from an RNG-based system and then actually give it to you.

One thing that will almost assuredly drop, though, is the ability to get large amounts of 'prime junk' (prime parts you don't want) at one time.  This means it's going to be harder to get ducats, and harder to make plat off selling 'junk rares' on the market to people who are putting together lower-end prime gear and want them.

Of course, this is based solely upon what (admittedly few) facts we've been provided thus far.  Things are subject to change; for better or worse remains to be seen.

[PopGligor]

There is a double grind wall behind the current system. Unless of course you're a leech who is always leeching off of other people's keys. Which I don't pass judgment, I mean I need those T4 Def rewards. Afaik, the only place to get T4 def keys is Draco and seriously... screw that.

The current system will put a more consistent double grind wall, where everyone will have to grind their parts. No more leeching. Which I cannot object to. From the looks of it, prime farming will be pure prime farming. No forma, no orokin cells or mods. Or at least I hope it is that way. So if you want primes, you'll be able to get primes reliably, as opposed to the current system. 

Overall, I really like this change. Even if, judging by the first paragraph, it'll kinda harm me.

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

You know... if you change "Projection" to "Void Key", you get the very same thing we have right now.

So far, the only difference that I've seen is that we can play in any Starchart title-set instead of just the Void to get the rewards.

[VCaptiion]

1. GRIND WALL described by OP.
2. TIME WALL which a projection might need to be built to get a single part.
3. CONVERSION RATE when the update rolls out, 1 S/D/I key = 1 projection seems lame.
4. Obtaining a low-value part might take longer but high-value might take shorter.
5. DUCATS PRICE could rise because you'll need to wait.
6. How about derelict?
7. In general i am pessimistic about the new system.

Edited July 5, 2016 by VCaptiion

[--F--NerevarCM]

Quote

Move along guys, is just another BlackCoMerc "quality" thead. The only thing he does in this forum is complain and create conspiracy/doom threads and call it "feedback".

 

[Redthirst]

1 hour ago, Artorius-Alter said:

It's still not an improvement then.

It's an improvement because instead of sticking new Prime parts into existing keys thus oversaturating the droptables, devs can just make new Projections.