Dev Stream 80: Carrier Changes feedback thread [Megathread]

[chofranc]

Let's hope that "universal vacuum mod" doesn't turn into a bandaid fix to make the devs think "Now that you can use vacuum on other sentinels they are going to be fixed because players are going to use them more".

[Soulden]

Not sure if you have ever used Djinn or Helios before posting.

[Mak_Gohae]

4 hours ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

 

In a game where you can clear a mission in 1 minute (and raid in 10 minutes) you really expect us to go pick up a item 5 feet away from me where I could have killed a enemy in the mean time 

It is not lazy.

 

What weapons are you using that you cannot move and shoot at the same time? if you are using limited range weapons that means you would be close enough to pick up loot.

3 hours ago, xXRiomaXx said:

 

if you want to stay glued to the floor for like 30 seconds and pick up items manually go ahead. Meanwhile we vacuum users will bullet jump into the same room and grab everything in 2-3 seconds while you walk around.

You call it lazy we call it being efficient. 

How did you reach that 30 second number? BTW, you can bullet twirl over the loot and it will get picked up.

And given how enemies moves, without vac it will not likely that much longer than the 3 seconds, especially since people love putting fast movement speed mods.

[(PSN)Keiji_Haku]

Heres a practical outlook on the whole thing.

First my opinion is that carrier isn't as efficient as people believe. Why do I think that? Well let's look at some more practical examples.

What if you're killing enemies long range? Say 25 to 30 meters. Carrier isn't going to pick that crap up, you're still going to have to walk to it to get into vacuum's range. At the point it would really only be like 2-3 seconds to walk over when in range. If you're having to go out of the way for it just to get in range that extra 2-3 seconds won't be game changing. 5-10 seconds would be game changing. You wouldn't spend 2-3 seconds less to pick it up, parkour allows to pretty much gather in one go.

What if you're mid range? Say 10 to 15 meters. Well carrier might be slighty handy in this spot but picking it up might take about 5-6 seconds. This however is somewhat situational. Say for instance you're going with a simulor, all that loots probably going to be stuck in one spot. Its one grab and then you're done.

If you're going close range, chances are you're already picking up the loot as it drops with or without carrier especially if you're going with a melee based build.

 

On the note of 5-10 seconds for the game to change, think of it like this.

It takes 5-10 seconds for an enemies around 40-60 to annihilate the defense objective. Any higher and well no offense but you're sentinel is probably close to dead if not already. Companions kinda just get in the way at that point and more often then not die because you're busy with the objective.

It takes (I don't remember specifically) about 30 seconds to drain 20% of life support. This means about every 3 seconds 2% goes. if you have 6 seconds thats roughly 1 life support drop, and it only takes one to keep the game going. for 10 seconds thats about 7%. That's just enough time to clear several rooms to get a pod. In any case if you kill an enemy and for some reason didn't get the support they dropped and then say that you should have had carrier to pick it up, thats not an efficiency problem or game problem, thats a player problem. Enemies drop life support, its a fact. You have to remember that at all times and be weary of your surroundings, the game even alerts you with an icon about the life support drops.

If you haven't done capture in a long time since they changed it, give it a go. They no longer are easily cc'd. Say you slow with m prime, it doesn't last long and then they become immune (I thought itd be diminishing returns?). if you don't have a very good mobility ability or aren't quite so handy with parkour a 5 second game would usually mean game over. Those damn targets cover a lot of ground in 5 seconds, however sometimes you a get a stupid AI that just stops for no reason.....

 

Last point. Consider a battlefield filled with loot. You have to make sure you're in range to pick up everything. That's maybe 2-3 seconds but instead of spending time trying to get in range, you could just leap right to the loot and pick it up in that same 2-3 seconds.

 

I hope I was at least somewhat informative for some. Again this all my practica opinion and obersvations.

 

(Need confirmation on the life support to time ratio)

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by (PS4)Keiji_Haku

[cornfed_pig]

strongly disaprove

 

I have just finished leveling 4 sentinels that are not carriers and on most maps I could not function if I wanted loot. All my time would be spent picking things up........ making the game practically unplayable without a carrier since the default pickup range is too small considering amount of drops that are scattered when you are playing in either a party or solo, all the different ways to score ranged kills.and the fact  that in this game you almost always must keep moving.

Making multiple mods out of one makes no sense. Everyone wants to collect everything in 99% of the cases and there are strict limitations on the amount of mod slots. If you are going for versatility there should be then 4 mods - the 3 you have mentioned and the one that sucks everything up so people can decide for themselves. Re carrier - The ammo conversion is almost always not needed. There are already mods and gear items for that. What should happen is default pickup range should be increased to something close to what it currently is with a carrier with vacuum so people can play and enjoy themselves with all of their pets, sentinels or solo if they wish. Carrier can be given a different function like sucking up unneeded then health and energy orbs and giving them to player when their health/energy falls below a threshold for example.

 

Edited September 18, 2016 by cornfed_pig

[NativeKiller]

Prepare to be... vacuumed into the megathread!

[texrei]

I hope they will not forget to rework the Simaris Energy Conversion mod and add something like charge points, to not lose the bonus of picking up orbs if we really get a universal vacuum.

[Tizodd]

I really don't get why DE is making this simple quality of life change so complicated.  I hope they don't go forward with the three mod thing and just give frames innate area looting.  It would make the gameplay so much smoother.

[-Blaze-]

Carrier can pick up loot through walls!

Often enough things droped so stupidly buggy outside of a wall that without Carrier ther is no Chance to get it. Just imagine it being something rare...

[Volinus7]

"Innate Vacuum" for president

fk universal vacuum

[Daemonicvs]

No, guys, no. You're completely missing the point.

Universal vacuum is something we NEED; we don't need it as 3 mods (which probably won't be equippable at the same time), we don't need it on sentinels only, we don't need it severely nerfed as you're currently planing to do. We simply need it on EVERY warframe with ANY companion.

The vacuum precept showed you that 90% of the players value not having to break the flow of the game by running left and right like idiots above all else, and your response is to "buff" it by either making us have to use 3 different mods on every sentinel or force us to choose just 1 type of loot that we'll be able to vacuum while still be forced to run around like morons?

That is not universal vacuum. That's not even making it better. If that's what you're planning to do, I'd rather you just left things as is because the idea your're currently "playing with" doesn't solve a thing and is actually just making things a lot worse.

First of all, it won't bump the usage statistics for kubrows and kavats because you're limiting it to sentinels. And secondly, there are 2 ways the mods will work; if all 3 mods are equippable at the same time, you just added 3 new must have mods into the game. Mods take slots, polarities and reactors and do you want to guess which sentinels got most of those during the last few years? That's right, everyone will just stick them into their 5-forma potatoed carriers and carry on with their lives.

If all 3 mods aren't equippable at the same time, you just ruined one of the most universally beloved abilities in the game for no reason whatsoever. Literally noone benefits from it; players lose the ability to run through missions carefree (because you CAN'T just vacuum energy or ammo or loot. You need all 3) and you gain absolutely nothing for it. Game durations might rise by a few percent and player's loot per game might slightly drop, but I honestly doubt it will prolong the gaming experience by any tangible amount. Like I said; it's a lose-lose situation.

I love you guys at DE to death, but sometimes you just take an absurd amount of time to come to conclusions that are in all honesty common sense. How long did it take to make the defense rewards stack? And how much common sense is that they should stack?

What you're doing now is overengineering a solution to a simple problem just to give the last few years of carriers existance some meaning and justification but guys, there is absolutely no need for this.

Yes, the carrier is by far the most used companion and that is embarrasing. Yes, all the other companions have been reduced to mastery fodder which makes countless hours poured into their development little more than time wasted. Yes, not having universal vacuum from the beginning was a mistake and yes, mag's passive should have been something else entirely. It's ugly, it has no meaning and it's the truth. But it's not to late to make things right. 

Just give vacuum to every warframe, make us sacrifice something if you have to (it could be like a quest that costs us a potato, or something we have to build for every frame costing us forma or some rare resources, or it can even be something we have to buy from the syndicates for every frame), but just give us the ability to have vacuum with every frame and any companion. Don't think about it, just do it. Take the easy way, the right way and make universal vacuum a reality. 

Tl,dr: the "3 mod" suggestion solves nothing, give vacuum to all warframes

 

 

 

 

[(XBOX)ToothlessApollo]

Why do we need 3? Just carry vacuum over to all companions (Kubrows and Kavats) and give Carrier the new precept.

[Volinus7]

 

1 hour ago, Cimbro94 said:

[DE]Scott quote "players are good to find problems/bug, not finding solutions".

I hated that moment a few DEVstream ago...

Because players want "comfort" "exciting" "fun" "not costly" this is players point of view

while DE want "money", either comes from cosmetic items or every annoyances possible to make players pay plats to skip it.

 

Their opinions come from different POV there's no way one will like "solution" of the other.

[Death_Master_]

Why split one good useful(proven by usage stats) mod named Vacuum to 3 weird mods?

It's like "People love cats, because of their adorable faces, why not transplant 3 cat faces to a puppy?".

The only change Vacuum NEEDS is to make it universal.

And i LIKE my carrier prime and even if mod will get universal i will take carrier prime to harder missions.

[Caramello]

Jesus christ DE you gonna overcomplicate something that is so simple.... picking up stuff on the floor.... 

Make it a passive for all frames and move on with your day, i bet it could be implemented in less than a hour.

If you really do the change to 3 mods you better aswell chanhge your motto from "Ninjas play free" to "Ninjas play at slow pace picking up every piece of loot 1 by 1" see what i did here? yeah the change to 3 mods will just break the game flow...

Edited September 19, 2016 by CarameIIo

[Troll_Logic]

1 hour ago, Mak_Gohae said:

And the same goes for loot drops. Walk in the general direction the enemy is coming from, ta-da, problem solved for pickups.

Nope.  I've run within what looks to be three feet from many energy orbs, health orbs, and affinity and not picked them up.

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

Would rather see the other sentinel abilities be buffed. Rather see a buff first out of situation before the incoming nerf to the ability. 

[(PSN)keilnealquan]

4 hours ago, chofranc said:

As the title says, i mean, why they focus on the vacuum that work great instead of fixing the broken shade precept that work when it want or the forgotten deathcube and his "one shot deathly-lazor" that doesn't melt an icecream?

Djiin doesn't worked well and they fix it, wyrm doesn't worked well and they fixed a little.

I think that they should focus on fixing what is broken instead of trying to fix something that is not broken. People use mostly the carrier because is one of the 5(carrier, djiin, wyrm, diriga, helios) sentinels that aren't totally broken.

They should add to sentinels weapons mods the shared mod mechanics too, so you can use sniper with vulklok or shotguns with the carrier weapon, or they should give to the sentinels a passive that benefits to the user.

Also, vacuum should be an innate mechanic of the game instead of a mod, even if it has to have less range of suction.

I fail to comprehend. How is Djin broken exactly? This is coming from someone who only used Djin and no other  sentinel. He draws enemies in, and spits corrosive on his enemies.

[Scholar_Andrew]

They seriously are making this more difficult than it needs to be. Just make it a single mod! And one that fits ALL COMPANIONS at that! Now, all sentinels have more value than companions (on a global scale. I'm not talking about the small percentage that never cared for the vacuum effect).

DE, please clarify your thought process. WHY IS THIS A GOOD IDEA?

What part of this is making companions better? Pets specifically. 

I mean, think about it. How often do sentinels die? ALL THE TIME. They are inherently squishy, no matter how much you mod their health and shields! So now that we have to add ALL THREE of these new mods to EVERY SENTINEL, how much room do you think we have to work with? This is complicating things on every end of the spectrum just to add a feature that could come as ONE MOD for no reason! 

And that still doesn't explain you guys completely ignoring pets! You didn't even say we would be able to add any of these new three mods to Kubrows or Kavats! Why?

I'm genuinely not mad about this. I'm not mad at DE. What is garnering such a strong reaction from me is that this makes no sense!

[Krymanol]

Personally I see nothing wrong with carrier as is.  So what most people prefer to use carrier.  That's the fault of DE not the players.  If you want players to use different sentinels then make the other sentinels abilities as useful in what they do as vacuum does what it does.   Then stop making game mechanics that cater to having and using vacuum.

 

The game is primarily two things....Killing and collecting loot to make new frames and weapons so you can kill more efficiently.   None of the other sentinels really help you in those two areas better than carrier because vacuum gets you way more loot than you can ever collect manually and he also can kill stuff in one shot when they get close or sneak up behind you.

 

Since all the other useful stuff sentinels do all come from mods that any of them can equip, well carrier is not the most used simply because of vacuum.   he's the most used because all the other sentinels pretty much suck or are not as effective in what they do compared to how effective carrier is at what it does.   Automatically collecting every single loot that drops while you keep 100% of your focus on killing enemies, protecting and completing objectives is way better than what any of the other sentinels can do for you.    Carrier simply makes you a more effective player.   The person without carrier has the following issues...

 

1. Hesitate when loot drops

2. Look at loot to decide if it's worth picking up now or later

3. Go out of your way to pick the loot up

4. Put you out of position if you are protecting a target or objective

5. Takes your eyes off the most important goal which is keeping track of the enemies at all times and killing them as fast as possible.

Doing this makes you a less effective player because you have to multitask while the person using carrier can sit back and just focus on fighting or the mission objective.

Also, with the power of frames and weapons, nobody needs a sentinel to kill stuff.   Therefore all they are good for is their unique abilities and majority of the sentinels all do the similar things (at least 3 of them CC the enemies for example).   You never need a sentinel for it's killing potential either and helios weapon (decostructor) is the best sentinel weapon in the game for killing anything in one shot and it can be equipped on any sentinel (unless that's changed and I'm not aware of it).  

 

So DE shouldn't focus on making carrier less appealing to entice players to use other sentinels.   They need to focus on making the other sentinels more appealing or better overall.  Give me a reason to use Diriga, Djinn, Wyrm, Shade over carrier...and my god either make Deth Cube truly do some destructive damage or remove it from the game because Deth Cube is 100% useless as a companion right now.    So even if you removed vacuum from carrier altogether, it still wouldn't make me choose Deth Cube instead.

 

EDIT: and one more thing, most of the other sentinels are counterproductive to various frames because some of their abilities do things that go against the theme of a frame.  For instance, you don't want Shade on Chroma because you want to take damage not go stealth and avoid damage altogether.    Carrier and Helios are the only two frames I think can be universally used on all frames without interfering with how the frame plays.   So yet another reason to revamp all sentinels instead of just going through with this half-assed effort to make other sentinels used.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Krymanol

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Aye_Dude4 said:

In a high level content, no one would walk up to 100+ level bombard/napalm and tell them ill pick up this energy/health orb. if him/her is running a survivals 

So? Just wait until nothing is there.

Or, even better, knock that bombard away.

Edited September 19, 2016 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[Azrael]

36 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Nope.  I've run within what looks to be three feet from many energy orbs, health orbs, and affinity and not picked them up.

The innate pickup range is technically 1 meter, but since that starts in the center of your warframe it's basically just "walk on top of it."

[(PSN)keilnealquan]

I do see your point but if you're doing such long runs after a while your Carrier will die. Even if he doesn't when you get to the point where any enemy is able to one shot you you won't even think twice about any loot. You'd be busy trying to survive.

[GinKenshin]

4 hours ago, Kuestenjung said:

And now enlighten me how Helios or Diriga are ( totally ) broken. They both are working as intended and are awesome.

actually, helios is TOTALLY broken, I mean needing bug fixing broken, it still scans stuff I ALREADY @(*()$ DONE SCANNING and ignores what I really wants it to scan, thank the lotus for heliocor/synoid 

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

Oh my gosh. This entire thread seems really aggressive to me. OK, Carrier users are mostly lazy. Warframe is a video game, so why bash people for being lazy? All of are lazy sometimes. Be lazy if you wanna be, and  be ashamed about it.

My problem with the Carrier dilemma is the people who act as if Carrier is a need. They act as if they're restricted because they need Carrier. I and many others have managed to get all of the items we need without Carrier. It's not difficult, and you may choose to try to do so. However, if you're gonna be lazy, please don't complain about the drawbacks of your laziness. We do things far more grindy, tedious, and necessary than picking up extra items. (I'm actually usually too lazy to switch my loadouts. Rather than complaining, I expect some extra challenge in every mission. I can switch if needed.)