The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[CarrotSalad]

I think the fact its an issue shows we actually need a entire re-work to the way looting works to solve some of the issues involvedwith vacuum.

Allow sentinels/kavats/kubrows to actually store ammo, health, energy orbs. Let them hold stock of excess energy, ammo and health. I also think energy leech should be a debuff that prevents casting abilitys for a set duration rather than leeching energy.

[koopagon]

i think the vacuum changes are more than sufficient at doing what i think DE was aiming for: reducing the player's value of carrier and carrier prime while increasing the value of literally every other sentinel.

and personally im more than ok with these changes since i only use helios on occasion and this update gives more value to helios.

[Mutt2679]

1 minute ago, DAWGUNITALPHA said:

You can boil it down to that, sure. With the previous range I wouldn't have had to get that close to it at all. I wouldn't have had to stop, turn and deliberately walk towards that item to pick it up because my vacuum would have gotten it when I ran past.

It's literally a few steps difference. Going back once in a while isn't a huge deal for any map. It's going to add a minute or 2 at most to the run. 

Ah well. With this much uproar over it, DE should and probably will do something to change it back, whether it's in mod form or whatever. I get that missing that other 5m annoying for speed runs, which It's looking that's how a lot of the community preferences is. 

Thank you for talking through that with me. Voices definitely need to be heard, and hopefully DE listens. I wish you luck out there my friend.

[DAWGUNITALPHA]

Just now, Mutt2679 said:

It's literally a few steps difference. Going back once in a while isn't a huge deal for any map. It's going to add a minute or 2 at most to the run. 

In a game about being fast, a minute or two feels like an eternity. Especially if  it's on top of grinding missions for specific drops.

[DatDarkOne]

4 minutes ago, koopagon said:

i think the vacuum changes are more than sufficient at doing what i think DE was aiming for: reducing the player's value of carrier and carrier prime while increasing the value of literally every other sentinel.

and personally im more than ok with these changes since i only use helios on occasion and this update gives more value to helios.

After trying this out on Helios, I can't see how this is a bad thing. Carrier now has an ability that fits it's name.

[Xekrin]

19 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

Maybe the thread didn't start out on a terrifically even tone, but there's no need to reflexively label negative feedback as 'dev bashing.'

There is a vast difference between feedback, be it positive or negative, and dev bashing.  The OP contains a strong sense of the latter and very little of the former.  

21 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

I am one of these people. Without vacuum, the task of thorough looting begins to feel so big that it takes over the whole mission. I'm not thinking about combat, even when engaging in combat. I'm watching where all the loot is going, and not having any fun.

I completely agree.  Before this change I rarely (read never) used anything but carrier when I had even the slightest desire to get loot.  Just today I used Diriga and Djinn as test subjects and other than directing myself in that general direction didn't concern myself over getting loot for the first time with these sentinels.

People are freaking out over having to walk a few extra meters to maintain that 6m radius, which quite frankly isn't that much compared to having to literally walk on top of loot as it was previously.  There was mentioned a slight delay in vacuum pickup, which is likely a bug and can be fixed in the future.  

It is funny that when people discussed vacuum/carrier previous to all this, the main argument was laziness, and how people couldn't be bothered to walk over and pick up loot.  Now the argument is you have to walk within 6m meters of loot rather than the previous 12m or whatever it was before.

6 meters is a great change IMO, sure you can no longer get loot from the rooms above or below you, but at least you can utilize the benefits of the other sentinel precepts and not have to worry about loot 'as much'.  You still have to get close, but no where near as close as before with those sentinels.

Would I have preferred it be on warframes rather than only sentinels?  Why yes, I would like that very much, it maybe it'll happen later.

53 minutes ago, DAWGUNITALPHA said:

Instead of addressing the issue of "Why do our players feel like they have to use this item" DE uses the amazing backwards logic of "Lets take this away and force them to play our way"

They did address it.  People used carrier because "reasons" whatever those were for those that used it.  I won't even attempt detailing those reasons because they varied.  The main point was loot gathering, though obviously, and now every sentinel does just that.

Reducing the range to 6m was a nerf to carrier but a buff to every single over sentinel we have available.  Those who were used to using carrier will certainly feel the impact of this "nerf".  However since the reason they used carrier is no longer unique to carrier perhaps they will branch out, explore the other options.  

Perhaps they will say "I really liked shade except for that annoying thing where I had to pick up loot one by one."  OMG now they don't have to!  WHAT!!!!!!  BAM, they use shade more often now.  Problem addressed.

I always loved the concept of diriga, now I fully intend to use it more now that the concerns of loot gathering WITH DIRIGA are not nearly as severe as they were WITH DIRIGA.  Will I miss the far superior vacuum of old carrier?  Sure, probably, especially since I, like the majority of players, used it 80% of my gameplay.  It will feel odd, but strangely I feel like I can adapt.

Perhaps others should at least try it before saying things like..

1 hour ago, DAWGUNITALPHA said:

And by "It" I mean they over-nerfed a simple issue and offered half-assed compromises

because although it is indeed a compromise, half-assed it is not.

[KrypTic.]

7 minutes ago, koopagon said:

i think the vacuum changes are more than sufficient at doing what i think DE was aiming for: reducing the player's value of carrier and carrier prime while increasing the value of literally every other sentinel.

and personally im more than ok with these changes since i only use helios on occasion and this update gives more value to helios.

fair point, though i don't believe it was necessary to nerf it's range, as how at all does that give carrier an edge?.. what other incentive is there to make players want to use carrier over other sentinels? nothings, it's all preference and situational environments. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

Everything I would have said about the absurdity of picking up mods, resources, etc. somehow indicating diligence and skill on the part of the player has been said already. Vacuum is quality of life, and the value of quality of life when it comes to alleviating grind should be clear from the popularity of Carrier in its original form.

There is no reasonable defense of that idea outside of stroking your ego.

Warframe's loot system already stacks the deck against its players... using an area pickup ability in a fast-paced game with a disorienting amount of action on the screen almost constantly is not something to be ashamed of.

[Shockwave-]

27 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

I was gunna kinda ignore that post, because in TPS and FPS, the key to not getting shot is, y'know, Staying out of the line of fire, which means moving around. So....Literally every game with guns, movement is important?

Most FPS is clear the room or area then loot, it's not WF survival-like. If it it is WF survival-like it doesn't have a ton of drops to pick up like WF does. WF is constant action and LOTS of drops and no sharing. That's a pretty bad combination you don't see in a lot of games.

[Mutt2679]

7 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Guys stop attacking people on the forums for disliking the tediousness of picking up items. 89% of player DIDN'T LIKE picking up loot manually. End of discussion. Stop complaining that people are lazy. No they're not lazy. Having to manually pick up items in an action game is BAD GAME DESIGN.

That wasn't me attacking him, Just a discussion. Didn't mean any offense by what I said at all apologies If I caused offense @DAWGUNITALPHA 

Different players play different ways. I'm in the minority on this one, I'm well aware. :)

[Mak_Gohae]

I like it, too.

Funny thing is that it ended up this way cause of the flipout over the break up to 3 mods.

[MessengeroDeath]

Nope... If you want to waste your time running around picking up loot you love this update...

[-TSA-TimSin]

Hi,

so vacuum is now built-in all sentinels. Great change and needed.

The topic of this discussion is the range nerf of vacuum.

I am interested in hearing arguments PRO vacuum range nerf! How is it better now with 6m range as it would be with 12m?

 

Edit: Sorry, but i got none. Added a question mark in title.

Arguments?

1.

Having a smaller vacuum radius helps encourage people to slow down a little bit and actually pick things up, instead of blitzing though the level and ignoring everything but the objective. After all, what's the point of having fancy new resource pickups if no one ever actually sees them?

How is slowing down in a fast paced shooter game a "good thing"?

2.

12 minutes ago, Brachion said:

Also, it helps keep Kavats and Kubrows relevant, since they were pretty much overshadowed by Carrier's sheer utility in the past.

Vacuum could be built-in in companions or warframes also.

3.

"I didn't use carrier at all." or "That 6m range is still enough."

It's not an argument for how 6m is BETTER THAN 12m!

Edited October 6, 2016 by TimSin-EGT-

[Monsterwithin]

No, putting all the topics in a megathread is worse, as the matter will be ignored more, because most people don't like going through 200+ pages of confusing merged topics, including me.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Monsterwithin

[Shockwave-]

56 minutes ago, Mutt2679 said:

Before I start, My vote is on increasing the range back to normal But that being said.... 

I'm gonna get hated on for saying this, but i don't see what the big deal is. Yeah, it sucks that it's only 5m. but I treated the old carrier as a luxury. A way to lazy frame. With a fast paced game like warframe, you should be running over the map just playing the game like normal.... A lot of the community will waypoint rare stuff, Especially if you let em know you are farming for the rare resource or whatever in case you do miss something. 

I dunno, This seems to be getting blown out of proportion. I can understand being mad, but it's not like 10m is that big of a range anyways. I run with my smeeta, and will continue to do so. I've compared end results with many squads, It's really comparable with what carrier runners were getting.


 

funny our group compared carrier with full vac to carrier with unmodded vac to no carrier and the diferrences in loot pickup was huge. From carrier to none was on the order for 33% less loot even when the non carrier person was trying to pick it all up. We stopped when the carrier guy got to the end screen and everyone took a loot screen shot.

Sure you can be more even if you take twice as long to do the mission.... and the non carrier user is last getting iout but that time is a resources reduction. When compared to equal time in the mission, the carrier user won out handily. That's a TON of resources over time.

Defense and MD were the closest, Followed by Ext, then camping survival, then sabotage, then spy (we split up to do vaults), then survival where we split up (as pubs often do), and capture was by far the worst.

 

it was 12.5 now it's 6. that's a huge nerf in radius.

[LuckyCharm]

Hey guys,

I don't think the vacuum range is long enough currently. Even the old one felt a tad short for shooting things and grabbing loot when you do long range shots. But now the loot radius is shorter than my melee range, which begs the question of if I can already reach it to hit it, why can't I grab it? 

By shorter I don't mean by a little, It's half, or a little less than half of my orthos prime range currently. And a lot less than the hexis boltace slide. It's even less than my galatine. I don't really want to dash about in circles grabbing loot I miss when I've dashed into a hoarde of enemies and all the loot ends up behind me. 

Please Fix the range DE, or at least make it passive to warframes so I can still use my puppy. 

[bluepheonix13]

8 minutes ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

Hi,

so vacuum is now built-in all sentinels. Great change and needed.

The topic of this discussion is the range nerf of vacuum.

I am interested in hearing arguments PRO vacuum range nerf! How is it better now with 6m range as it would be with 12m?

There are no pro range nerf arguments, there are only pro arguments about the other changes (Carriers new precept and vacuum on other sentinels).

[-Amaterasu-]

6m is more than enough the way I see it (I'm used to not using carrier though so maby that's just me) they could have just gotten rid of vacuum and said nothing about it if they really wanted to, 6m is the price we pay for having vacuum available to all sentinels at the cost of a whoping 0 mod energy / slots.

Complaining about it at this point would just be entitlement, Carrier's new ability also benefits certain weapon builds and saves you even more slots that may have otherwise been used on mutations

[armedpoop]

Hold on, ill get you some quotes in a while, will edit this post

 

Here is a couple fresh off the presses from the same person! (relatively)

The way some people's minds work to make things like this OK are incredible to me. 

I have more if anyone wants to see more. This is abysmal, honestly. 

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by armedpoop

[-Fe-McHamm3rShot]

You are asking for "Pro" nerf resposes in regards to vacuum going from 12m to 6m?

You'd be better off asking peepl in the forums for their collection of unicorn shiet, and then eating it on Youtube. 

[Babellon]

I don't know that 6m is better or worse than 12m. I do know that there is more effort involved now to get loot, but that effort is marginal. I know that we have far to many occasions of people trying to make the game as easy as possible and that has resulted in a game so many people now say is boring, and in some ways I agree. (not a lot of ways mind you, but somewhat). 

The change to universal vacuum was indeed a player driven change that has been requested for nearly as long as I've been playing, which has been since about 9months after release. I don't know that it would be bad to make it 12 meters, or simply make it auto loot the entire map without us ever picking up anything. How ever this game has been slowly dwindled away to passive effects, and auto completed missions with almost no effort at all needing be applied. So to me, the 6M range makes players actually have to move around and make effort. This grind everyone is so resistant to is the very thing everyone missed as soon as fissures became passive auto complete missions. What is worse to me is that primes are the thing we spend so much money on, and now they're giving them away like candy(sorry, I'm sideventing a little bit and need to steer left again). 

I think the range would be ok a little higher, I don't think it being lower than the original vacuum is hurting anything at all.

[YUNoJump]

I can think of a few reasons for the nerf, one would simply be that now that vacuum doesn't cost a slot or any mod power, they want to decrease its benefit. Based on all the complaints, we could see vacuum return with its old power in mod form.

Another reason could be that the devs want people to actually focus more on picking up items, old vacuum basically pulled items in without people even registering that they dropped, having players consciously look for and pick up items may be the goal that the devs are aiming for. Whether or not this change is good for the game is a matter of debate however, personally I don't find the task of running over loot to be all that problematic but some people find that task to be horrific for game flow so I can't truthfully say that I am objectively right in this case. 

One other thing could also just be that since vacuum is only on sentinels currently, the devs want to increase the appeal of pets as well. If every sentinel had big vacuum then people would just use sentinels exclusively over pets, instead of Carrier. Doesn't really solve the problem.

[Beggining]

2 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

this, vacuums now pretty much as useful as my chesa kubrows retrieve, which only works when it feels like it and I end up just walking over to it while the kubrow stands there looking at the loot.

Ah, Chesa. I remember them best for running into enemy territory to break open one container, or to retrieve a resource by dashing straight into gunfire. They are just...so special.

I think most people who are 'pro' to Vacuum changes are people who are already used to picking up resources by themselves. At least, that's how I feel - a resounding 'meh' in respond to the change.

[Alcatraz]

14 hours ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

Hi,

so vacuum is now built-in all sentinels. Great change and needed.

The topic of this discussion is the range nerf of vacuum.

I am interested in hearing arguments PRO vacuum range nerf! How is it better now with 6m range as it would be with 12m?

 

Edit: Sorry, but i got none. Added a question mark in title.

Still waiting for it to update currently but I assume the shorter range is a good outcry, Especially for those items that are forever stuck in walls and cannot be retrieved any other way than Vacuum.

I like the overall idea of the concept, 6 metres is a bit short, 8-9 metres and I could see everyone accepting with that because, dethcube, wyrm, and djinn are very good sentinals and worth more than carrier ever was.

I only hope the results are good and we get a passive vacuum on pets so I can use my kubrow all the time.

Edited October 6, 2016 by [DE]Danielle
Removed quote that violated the CoC

[Reifnir]

Because we got a "free" ammo Mutation instead?

But seriously, I can't find a single reason for Vacuum range nerf aside from "players must suffer!". Vacuum was a good precept. A very good, even, seeing how everyone and their kavat used Carriers over everything else. Now it's a passive, but it's been hit with a depleted-uranium nerfbat. Yay!.. Not. 

Let me be blunt here - making something that was good *worse* is a very bad design decision. It just doesn't work. Sorry, it's just plain dumb.

Oh, and don't get your hopes up for other sentinels. Ammo Case is much more useful than anything other sentinels have to offer. Not because it's an overly good mod, but because Ammo Mutation series is so bad that any workaround is automatically good. So Carrier is still THE sentinel of choice.