The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[notlamprey]

1 minute ago, marshmellory said:

i'm not entirely sure why people are so hell-bent on criticizing DE for this update and calling it a "MASSIVE GAME-BREAKING NERF" and "THE WORST DECISION YET"

like,,,

you lost: 6m of vacuum range off one sentinel

you gained: 6m of vacuum range on every other sentinel in the game, PLUS you get built in ammo drum & a universal ammo mutation if you have carrier equipped, which comes across as a great buff to ammo-hungry weapons that used to have to sacrifice a slot or two for those mods.

however, i do agree with the main post in that 6m is still a little tight - the reason carrier was overused was that it had vacuum at all, not that the range of its vacuum was ""overpowered"". the other problem was that there were far reduced benefits for using any other sentinel, kubrow or kavat. in this case it looks like kubrows and kavats have been overlooked, i think a better solution would have just to make vacuum a passive of a.) every warframe b.) or every companion, animal or otherwise.

Prior to this vacuum change, I was able to move quickly through maps and loot them thoroughly, all while making good use of the nice parkour system we have.

Now, I can't do that anymore. I can either get loot, or enjoy the movement system. I can't do both, and the result is that the game feels like it has really lost something.

[Ozamchist]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Guess I have to play devils advocate....again.

As someone who mainly goes without vacuum on ALL the time I can say without a doubt it's not necessary to grab each and every single drop. I mainly prioritize rare materials, mods, and endo. Even with a smaller radius it's still a significant upgrade for every sentinel and it's not so significant where kubrows/kavats are incredibly disadvantage for not having it. I'd say it was purposefully reigned in such a way as to enforce that notion. This update was done with the sole purpose of weaning people off of the carrier's tit and it will bring more variety to sentinel setups.

Oh and if you watched old videos of Warframe it was slow and plodding. So yeah ultra fast missions done in under a minute was not the original vision. Doors will even eat you if you go sanic speeds.

Doors still eat you in the ps4 version?

[akira_him]

27 minutes ago, OvAeons said:

dying of laughter of the "nerf" cause my diriga and helios got a buff in that case :P

if i can make do without the use of carrier you can to.

IDK, I just don't really need any utility from companions other than vacuum, maybe that's just me, I actually prefer carrier ammo carrying so I can get amprex and synapse out of dust now so this is a nerf to me , and really stops me from focusing combat 

Edited October 6, 2016 by akira_him

[YUNoJump]

9 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

The reduction of range hasn't been explained by DE.However any way you slice it, it is a resource nerf.

6 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

What could having a 10-12 meter vacuum on all sentinels possibly do to harm the game in any possible way?
I don't even think DE knows.

a) vacuum no longer costs a mod slot/power, if it stayed at the same range it stand to reason that it would need to still be a mod, just for all sentinels.

b) Pets don't have vacuum, reducing vacuum allows them to be more viable compared to sentinels.

c) DE just doesn't like vacuum but they want to compromise with the community

[DeMeritus]

It's kind of funny.

About 80% of the player base is using carrier for its vacuum ability being useful and making gameplay enjoyable.

The reaction from DE?  They decided to punish that 80% by nerfing said ability to a tiny fraction of what it used to be, to intentionally get a reaction from the player base.

Awww man!  Dis gonna be good!

[marshmellory]

1 minute ago, notlamprey said:

Prior to this vacuum change, I was able to move quickly through maps and loot them thoroughly, all while making good use of the nice parkour system we have.

Now, I can't do that anymore. I can either get loot, or enjoy the movement system. I can't do both, and the result is that the game feels like it has really lost something.

purely from personal experience, i haven't noticed any difference at all in the way you're required to move

unless you insist on only travelling over the ground at >6m at all times, or actively avoid anything that's not a large room in which you will be missing loot i'm not sure what the huge difference is.

that being said, i only picked up carrier prime a few months ago and don't ever wear it when farming for exp or focus so the omnipresent vacuum night not be as much as a norm for me as other people

[Tesseract7777]

I have a feeling part of DE's reasoning had something to do with Bladestorm... 

 

Something that might not be a problem, if they could ever figure out a way to rework that ability. But every attempt they try they decide is too overpowered, or gimmicky or broken and they still haven't decided on anything. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[DeMeritus]

DE reducing the range was intentionally done to get a reaction from its playerbase.

Read all the notes from the devs on the issue.

[i.chit.you.not]

welcome to find & fetch frame

[Shockwave-]

20 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Carrier was used too much compared to the other sentinels and the pets, because Vacuum is the most popular Companion ability.

 

Huh? who cares? why is using the best sentinel a bad thing? Is it so important that all sentinels get used equally that DE has to kill the one thing players love to accomplish this? I don't see the value in all sentinels being equal. All weapons are not equally used? should we get rid of all the popular weapons?

20 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

 

 all sentinels should be viable in the eyes of the community, or else the devs are just wasting their time in developing new things. This isn't even specifically for sentinels, this is just good game balance philosophy. If everything is equally powerful then players have the maximum amount of choice available to them, and that allows players to maximise on their enjoyment. This is pretty obvious.

But not done in any other aspect of the game. WF are not equally used, weapons aren't, liset's aren't etc. In addition this is an argument for a universal 12.5 meter range.

20 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

That comparison to Coke is stupid, product sales and game balance are two completely different things. DE doesnt get $4 whenever someone uses Carrier. Coke doesn't need to reduce sales of Coke to increase sales of other drinks, they can increase sales of diet coke without decreasing sales of other things. 

Fine I will change it. Would an amusment park get rid of it's best ride because the other rides are not getting ridden? That's the same as content not being used that was purcahsed but if one ride is SUPER popular would they really shut it down to give the other rides a chance? wouldn't people who like that ride just stop coming? That's bad business.

"we made 5 sentinels. You like one better than the other 4, so we're changing it so you have 5 admittedly WORSE choices to choose from... now please buy plat so we can get paid"..... really?

People can understand changes for game balance reasons if a gun is OP then it's OP, because challenge is necessary to keep interest.  but this is not game balance, it is content balance.

To put it directly into WF terms, If 90% of the players played survival because we just love that game mode, should DE make it less fun so we will play the less fun game modes they created? That is "content not being used". Would they really make the most fun game mode less fun just so we use less fun game modes?  Shouldn't they just learn from that and make the other modes more attractive?

That is what is so bad about this change, they are not balancing the game they are removing great content so other, less used and worse content is used. that reduces the experience for everyone. If you would have used old carrier over any of the new sentinels your gaming experience has been made worse by this change.

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by Shockwave-

[-TSA-TimSin]

10 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

@TimSin-EGT- Oh and before we default to that "then why don't they give it to kubrows and kavats" please remember that they move independently from players, which might lead to some coding nightmares. Not to mention that might also tip the scales in the reverse making Kavats and Kubrows more favorable than sentinels period.

EASY fix: vacuum as mod, which gives vacuum 12m to the warframe, as long as the sentinel/companion is alive. No reason to make it over complicated...

edit: that mod is equipable on every sentinel/companion.

Edited October 6, 2016 by TimSin-EGT-

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Just now, YUNoJump said:

a) vacuum no longer costs a mod slot/power, if it stayed at the same range it stand to reason that it would need to still be a mod, just for all sentinels.

b) Pets don't have vacuum, reducing vacuum allows them to be more viable compared to sentinels.

c) DE just doesn't like vacuum but they want to compromise with the community

How does pets not having a vacuum make them more viable compared to sentinels? They are viable in their own rights,
I also don't see a problem with a passive 10m loot vacuum without using a mod, what possible reason is there to say that would be a bad thing?
And why doesn't DE like vacuum you think? Makes it too easy? No I don't believe that.  I don't want to have to worry about missing loot when what we should be focusing on is the core gameplay of Warframe, not second guessing ourselves when we miss resources or backtrack for a mod we could've easily picked up with a 10 meter vacuum.

Please.

[notlamprey]

47 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

The core of PvE (Player vs Environment) isn't collecting loot (loot isn't your environment, it is a mechanic), it is about shooting, stabbing, eviscerating and otherwise neutralizing the enemies and traversing through the levels (enemies and mission levels are the enviroment).

That's how it should be, anyway. Picking up loot shouldn't require effort on the part of the player; we already contend with game math and that's enough.

Having to rub our shins on everything we want to pick up - because that is the way this '6m' vacuum feels - is just no good. Whatever your theory on how we got to this change, the end result is "feels bad."

We now have reduced choice masquerading as improved choice, and that makes it all the worse.

[ssh83]

As any scientist knows, a good experiment needs a control group.

Since the goal is to iteratively measure how innate vacuum affect player behavior... carrier's long range vacuum needs to stay in the game as the basis of comparison.

Allow the players to individually decide if/when innate vacuum sufficiently support their prefer style of play to switch out.

[KrypTic.]

22 minutes ago, koopagon said:

worst route possible is a blatant exaggeration for not getting 100% what the community wanted. we got a zero cost, zero slot required, built in vacuum with half the range.

if you want worst route possible, lets take a guess at how they could make it worse... assuming we went off the 3 slot required they proposed a little while back theres your answer. likely each would have cost about 5points each so 3 slots and 15 capacity. that would have been a full nerf to the ability instead of the retooled compromise we got.

Also this was just said on the latest update:
"We're keeping an eye on how this affects Sentinel usage and based on that, will decide how to proceed with Vacuum in the future. This is a work in progress, so please send us your feedback!"
Hopefully this is in good faith.

[Tesseract7777]

I think it was also supposed to be a Bladestorm Ash spam nerf. 

And they may be attempting to cut down on potential afk explots... but there are better ways to do both those things probably. 

[Zerdfer]

Completely agree with OP. But It's not an experiment. I highly doubt that we will see any significant change at this point.

But one can hope I guess ...

Edited October 6, 2016 by Zerdfer

[YUNoJump]

Just now, TimSin-EGT- said:

EASY fix: vacuum as mod, which gives vacuum 12m to the warframe, as long as the sentinel/companion is alive. No reason to make it over complicated...

That's...actually a pretty good idea, considering Warframe mod slots are much more important than Companion slots. Depends on whether or not Vacuum would be Exilus-viable however.

[-TSA-TimSin]

actually i meant as a mod for the sentinel or companion

 

[taiiat]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

The old Vacuum already did that.

*laughs*

[YUNoJump]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think it was also supposed to be a Bladestorm Ash spam nerf. 

And they may be attempting to cut down on potential afk explots... but there are better ways to do both those things probably. 

Before the change Carrier only sucked while the player was moving as a way to stop afk exploits, I assume it still works like that now, but the bladestorm point is a good one.

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, marshmellory said:

i'm not entirely sure why people are so hell-bent on criticizing DE for this update and calling it a "MASSIVE GAME-BREAKING NERF" and "THE WORST DECISION YET"

 

3 Years is why.

If the radius was ever a problem it shouldn't have taken 3 Years to address.

 

[Gritzan]

If DE cared about feedback, this patch wouldn't have gone through in the first place.

You'll get your nerfed vacuum, you'll enjoy it, and by god you will buy more platinum.

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

3 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

Doors still eat you in the ps4 version?

Eh not as much but they mostly stay closed or mess up and half-open. Still it's a performance issue as well as design choice to slow the player down. Or maybe the design choice was with performance in mind. I mean in high latency games carriers simply steal all the loot and I have to chase the player down. Not intended but may be another reason for it's range nerf; a workaround for the bugs.

I'd also note the co-op aspect of marking materials or mods other player may have missed. Teamwork is a major aspect of a co-op game but people don't seem to want to play together. I'm always marking out rare materials or mods other people just run right past and that's even with their carrier equipped.

[-TSA-TimSin]

15 minutes ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Oh and if you watched old videos of Warframe it was slow and plodding. So yeah ultra fast missions done in under a minute was not the original vision. Doors will even eat you if you go sanic speeds.

 

15 month old video. That room inbetween is one of the longest void rooms (if not THE longest):