The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[notlamprey]

I wonder if this was that "elegant solution" we were hearing about some time ago.

Points for trying if that's the case, but it would seem they missed the mark - whatever they were trying to do.

[DeMeritus]

Working as intended.

You don't honestly think DE would make this change lightly without thoroughly playtesting it, do you?

DO YOU?

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

3 Years is why.

If the radius was ever a problem it shouldn't have taken 3 Years to address.

 

also because you don't take a community request that makes things better for 90 % of people, turn it into something thats worse for them, and act like you did a good job listening

Edited October 6, 2016 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[Shockwave-]

6 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

a) vacuum no longer costs a mod slot/power, if it stayed at the same range it stand to reason that it would need to still be a mod, just for all sentinels.

b) Pets don't have vacuum, reducing vacuum allows them to be more viable compared to sentinels.

c) DE just doesn't like vacuum but they want to compromise with the community

a) why? Just saying it doesn't make it true. Why couldn't it be universal. This is a PvE only issue. It is not Overpowered, it is a convenience, why do you place this artifical restriction on it. In addition many of us would VASTLY prefer it as a universal mod than how it is now. This could be solved with a 6m innate range and universal 6.5m range increase mod. Boom everyone is happy.

b) So you prefer a worse choice. 89% of the player based chose carrier over pets, so the solution is to remove that choice so the players will be stuck with 5o6 choices all of which are WORSE choices than what they had.  How is that good? If we all loved survival and survival got played 90% of the time because it was the most fun game mode you are arguing that DE should remove it, so that people are free to choose from among the other 5, less fun, game modes. That would be a net reduction in fun for everyone. Games are supposed to be fun, you don't remove the "fun" content so that other, less fun content is used just because designers want their stuff played with.

c) Yes, removing vacuum reduces resources for all players.

 

[notlamprey]

3 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

3 Years is why.

If the radius was ever a problem it shouldn't have taken 3 Years to address.

I regret that I have one upvote to give in support of this right here.

[Evanescent]

Well if you're jumping around and passing over loot but not individually, it really helps. For example, I enjoy a very mobile, close-range gameplay but find walking over loot individually tedious.....for me I don't feel the nerf so much as others I guess? Being a bit larger wouldn't hurt though.

[Shockwave-]

7 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

3 Years is why.

If the radius was ever a problem it shouldn't have taken 3 Years to address.

 

Plus didn't they introduce carrier then PRIME him to boot. Seems like signing off on vacuum and the vac range when they do carrier prime.

[Ozamchist]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Tactless_Ninja said:

Eh not as much but they mostly stay closed or mess up and half-open. Still it's a performance issue as well as design choice to slow the player down. Or maybe the design choice was with performance in mind. I mean in high latency games carriers simply steal all the loot and I have to chase the player down. Not intended but may be another reason for it's range nerf; a workaround for the bugs.

I'd also note the co-op aspect of marking materials or mods other player may have missed. Teamwork is a major aspect of a co-op game but people don't seem to want to play together. I'm always marking out rare materials or mods other people just run right past and that's even with their carrier equipped.

I haven't had a door eat me in a loooong time, dunno why but the last time I used the unstuck command and I fling my self around in combat pretty fing hard (comes with my playstyle)
 

 

11 minutes ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

EASY fix: vacuum as mod, which gives vacuum 12m to the warframe, as long as the sentinel/companion is alive. No reason to make it over complicated...

edit: that mod is equipable on every sentinel/companion.

And that one kubrow that fetches stuff for you, do you have a proposed rework for it? None of the the concerns I brought up were addressed at all by this.

[notlamprey]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

But why even sacrifice range? Why not give every Sentinel a 12 meter vacuum? You still had to move around to pick up items with 12m on Carrier, so why cut it in half? Average engagement range of enemies when using guns is 10 to 25 meters. (For me, at least) 12m vacuum was still close enough for enemies like Heavy gunners to get a great bead on you so why nerf it to 6?

I would honestly rather have a LoS cone nerf where you have to be looking in the general direction to pick up loot rather than a range nerf. But again, why nerf it at all? Vacuum was no where near game breaking, it's just exclusivity on Carrier dominated the meta.

Put another way, it feels as though DE created a game mechanic that was overwhelmingly popular because it hid one of the most unpleasant parts of Warframe's design.

Rather than addressing the core issue, DE have made a change that punishes players by reducing the fun factor of our gameplay.

That's how it feels, anyway. I don't like this feeling.

[ograzzt]

4 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

As any scientist knows, a good experiment needs a control group.

Since the goal is to iteratively measure how innate vacuum affect player behavior... carrier's long range vacuum needs to stay in the game as the basis of comparison.

Allow the players to individually decide if/when innate vacuum sufficiently support their prefer style of play to switch out.

They are nerfing most popular sentinel and selling deluxe skin for least popular one at the same time. And they want somehow see how universal vacuum will affect user's choice of sentinels? What science are talking about? It's like Baro ducat prices when they didn't let him anything new for months, then just said players's ducats stock is only increasing and ducat economy is back to normal, and raised the prices even more than they were before. Science, yeah.

[TaylorsContraction]

If anything it's a massive nerf to carrier and a huge buff to every other sentinel. I can now use my prisma shade / helios and I  can start investing in the sniper sentinel. I'm free from carrier, it's definitely a move in the right direction. I won't say no to greater range either.

I understand why they tied this to sentinels, they must offer something that kavats / kubrows don't, but I think that isn't the right way to go. They can give sentinels other utility abilities and just move vacuum onto the warframes themselves.

[LuckyCharm]

So really what we're saying here is that.. it's not a 5m carrier because we can move? Most times we're moving about anyway. The difference is that now instead of running forward through a collection of drops, we now need to run into them, then stop, run left and right, maybe dance a little on the spot to make sure it all got collected, then move on. Gotcha.

Really though, by the explanation at the top, even if we were given a cylindrical suction range, we're still lacking vertical, and horizontal ranges, meaning multiple passes over an area in some cases rather than just one. Especially when playing with some frames that scatter drops everywhere. I still don't at all see how this is a good change, other than to make us complain about something other than the extra months delay for TWW

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

11 minutes ago, TimSin-EGT- said:

15 month old video. That room inbetween is one of the longest void rooms (if not THE longest):

 

I meant like beta old. Besides that's an exploit like bunny hopping was in any 90's shooter. It's why it was eventually removed/reworked.

 

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

Just now, Shockwave- said:

Plus didn't they introduce carrier then PRIME him to boot. Seems like signing off on vacuum and the vac range when they do carrier prime.

well lets be honest, they primed him cuz he's used by all of us and it would make money, and u know they wouldn't have made much of off it after this change. Now they need him to be equal n cash in on other sentinel primes. Calling It now, prime sentinel in the next pack.

I wish I could say this is sarcasm...

[AzureTerra]

So help you that you may have to move a little bit further to pick up some loot.

[DatDarkOne]

5 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Plus didn't they introduce carrier then PRIME him to boot. Seems like signing off on vacuum and the vac range when they do carrier prime.

I could have sworn they released Wrym Prime also. Not to mention variants of other sentinels. Just saying. :D

[-TSA-TimSin]

6 minutes ago, TermiteFrame said:

And that one kubrow that fetches stuff for you, do you have a proposed rework for it? None of the the concerns I brought up were addressed at all by this.

Chesa would need a new ability yes. Like Carrier also got a new one.

Which of your concerns didn't get adressed?

Coding nightmare because companions move around? => No coding nightmare because loot is sucked to warframe, not much different than carrier.

People might tend to use companions over sentinels? => Why would they do? How is that bad? (Loot sucking is for all the same now, which is good in my oppinion)

[Barely_Ironic]

89% of people used Carrier purely for Vacuum, now that all the sentinels have vacuum, I have far more freedom with no drawback of using a mod slot for the precept.
And you have to walk a step[ or two closer to the loot to pick it up now? That is NOT a big deal? The reason they didn't like Vacuum was because it stopped people using other sentinels, and stopped players being attentive to their environment, as they learn to be in earlier levels where they have to walk over loot to pick it up.
Only reason you'd have a lower pickup count in a mission is if you're too lazy to see a loot drop and walk near it, in which case, suck it up because it's your fault you aren't getting the loot.  

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

1 minute ago, LuckyCharm said:

So really what we're saying here is that.. it's not a 5m carrier because we can move? Most times we're moving about anyway. The difference is that now instead of running forward through a collection of drops, we now need to run into them, then stop, run left and right, maybe dance a little on the spot to make sure it all got collected, then move on. Gotcha.

Really though, by the explanation at the top, even if we were given a cylindrical suction range, we're still lacking vertical, and horizontal ranges, meaning multiple passes over an area in some cases rather than just one. Especially when playing with some frames that scatter drops everywhere. I still don't at all see how this is a good change, other than to make us complain about something other than the extra months delay for TWW

oh, you forgot, its also to distract us from the removal of the only viable endgame, which is the topic that was on hand and ignored when DE decided that universal vacuum was finally a topic worth bringing up, even though people in the forums were talking about it ever since carrier was 'the thing'.

[notlamprey]

24 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

As any scientist knows, a good experiment needs a control group.

Since the goal is to iteratively measure how innate vacuum affect player behavior... carrier's long range vacuum needs to stay in the game as the basis of comparison.

Allow the players to individually decide if/when innate vacuum sufficiently support their prefer style of play to switch out.

I was holding out hope that this was exactly what they planned to do.

_{boy do i feel like a fool.}

[MillbrookWest]

21 minutes ago, ssh83 said:

As any scientist knows, a good experiment needs a control group.

Since the goal is to iteratively measure how innate vacuum affect player behavior... carrier's long range vacuum needs to stay in the game as the basis of comparison.

Allow the players to individually decide if/when innate vacuum sufficiently support their prefer style of play to switch out.

That's not how it works. A "control" group isn't aware they are the 'control' group otherwise it renders the practise useless.

[YUNoJump]

24 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Huh? who cares? why is using the best sentinel a bad thing? Is it so important that all sentinels get used equally that DE has to kill the one thing players love to accomplish this? I don't see the value in all sentinels being equal. All weapons are not equally used? should we get rid of all the popular weapons?

But not done in any other aspect of the game. WF are not equally used, weapons aren't, liset's aren't etc. In addition this is an argument for a universal 12.5 meter range.

I didn't say equally USED, I said equally VIABLE. The main goal of balancing is to make every item available for as many things as possible (within the expected scope of use naturally, MK1 Braton isn't designed to be as powerful as a Soma Prime). Once items are equally viable then it is up to players to decide which one they enjoy best. If something is used much more than other things (ie Carrier) then it means that the item needs some changes, either buff everything else or nerf the item. And it's obviously easier to change one thing than everything other than the one thing.

All Warframes serve a purpose and are changed when one is actually under/overpowered, and until you get into actually difficult stages of the game you can take almost any decently built Warframe to any mission as long as you can kill fast enough. Landing craft aren't really balanced but they're at the bottom of a massive list of other things to balance so don't expect Landing Craft 2.0 anytime soon. Yes, there are more powerful weapons, but most weapons can be taken to at least non-endless endgame with some Forma and a good build, and the weapons in the game are varied enough that you often have the option to bring a weapon based on how it plays, not how much damage it does. I own a Tonkor, a Soma Prime and a Tigris Prime, but my favourite and most-used primary is probably the Burston Prime, because it's viable and I ENJOY it. Sentinels should also follow this concept of use-because-fun. And yes, meta-endgame weapons are very popular, but that is because killing lots of enemies is inherently fun. People enjoy having the ability to blast 30 enemies into orbit at once with a Tonkor, but that isn't the only way to have fun.

24 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

Fine I will change it. Would an amusment park get rid of it's best ride because the other rides are not getting ridden? That's the same as content not being used that was purcahsed but if one ride is SUPER popular would they really shut it down to give the other rides a chance? wouldn't people who like that ride just stop coming? That's bad business.

"we made 5 sentinels. You like one better than the other 4, so we're changing it so you have 5 admittedly WORSE choices to choose from... now please buy plat so we can get paid"..... really?

People can understand changes for game balance reasons if a gun is OP then it's OP, because challenge is necessary to keep interest.  but this is not game balance, it is content balance.

To put it directly into WF terms, If 90% of the players played survival because we just love that game mode, should DE make it less fun so we will play the less fun game modes they created? That is "content not being used". Would they really make the most fun game mode less fun just so we use less fun game modes?  Shouldn't they just learn from that and make the other modes more attractive?

That is what is so bad about this change, they are not balancing the game they are removing great content so other, less used and worse content is used. that reduces the experience for everyone. If you would have used old carrier over any of the new sentinels your gaming experience has been made worse by this change.

 

An amusement park isn't different from Coke in this case, it's still sales, the only difference is that a park sells services while Coke sells products.

The difference between Carrier and your gamemode scenario is that Carrier is picked because it is more powerful than the rest, not because it is more fun. (don't argue that watching items get sucked into a small hovering robot sack is "fun"). If you use carrier all the time you use him for the efficiency increase and the usefulness. If people played survival much more because it was much more fun, then DE would attempt to make other gamemodes more fun, not to get us away from survival, but to let people "have more fun"; to improve their game. However, if survival was played much more because it gave a much greater reward than anything else, even other endless missions, then DE would consider nerfing it. DE wants as many people as possible to play the game for as long as possible, and "more fun" is probably the best way to do that. More rewards doesn't really factor into this.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, ObviousLee said:

sentinels are fine. people are losing their minds because, yet again, their easy mode has been negated. that is all.

But the "easy mode" you're talking about isn't a game-breaking cheese mode, it's just a nice convenience that makes the game more fun for many people. We aren't talking about a tonkor or simulor nerf, we're just talking about picking up drops that RNG has already awarded to the player.

[marshmellory]

54 minutes ago, Cappucchino said:

This maybe a little self-centered idea.

People are go wild with Carrier nerf (of course other sentinels buff),

how about... make Ammo Case has the effect to increase the range of vacuum too...

about 0.5m per rank so maxed Ammo case will increase the range of vacuum for Carrier from 6m to 9m.

I think this is not so bad for players who normally use carrier, increasing 3m make a little different from other sentinels but still not to OP as the vacuum in the past that make Carrier overwhelming the choice to choose sentinel. Now people who don't need that much range of vacuum can use other sentinel.

 

Just my opinion, feel free to discuss but don't be offensive.

Thank you.

having the mods be mutually exclusive would be fine. give back the range to people who are throwing a fit about it being gone, and keeping the universal ammo mutation for those of us who prefer that. seems pretty win-win to me.

[GrimAtrament]

ugg if vacuum was not in the game to begin with none of you would even care....