The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[Avereth]

This is a thread for the discussion of a Universal Vaccum concept that allows for player quality of life and more actual choice than what has currently been presented.

As it stands

Currently the change on the table is that vacuum will become a passive to all sentinel companions, with a radius change from 12m to 5m.  This will add up to about a 5x loss if effectiveness, and 13x if you count every direction.  If you need to see the math, go here: 

Needless to say, picking up loot is going to be quite bothersome and lead to more tedious resource collection like this.  As someone who has been playing for 10 months and gone through crafting nearly every item in the game/made a fully researched dojo on my own, I feel I can say that anything that makes it harder to collect resources is a massive mistake.  Here is my own proposal of what should be done.  This thread is about discussing the viability of these proposed changes I am suggesting; please do not turn it into a debate about the current vacuum iteration DE is planning to use unless it is part of your discussion on my suggestions.

Sentinels

Vacuum is set to a radius of 9-10 meters.  This still represents a sizable reduction in its effectiveness(about 44% and 30% respectively) only judging from flat surfaces, and the falloff is a lot worse looking for the entire area in all directions, but it is less able to be argued as a nerf because it goes into every sentinel as a passive, still has a more reasonable area for pickup radius, and also frees up a mod slot, which is a big deal.

Kubrows

Vacuum is set to a radius of 7-8 meters.  This represents a 66% and 56% reduction in effectiveness respectively.  The reasons for these numbers are because as they run around, kubrows can collect loot more easily.  However, they are higher than kavat numbers as kubrows have the lowest use rate of all companions and offer nothing even close to comparable to the things kavats bring to the table.

Kavats

Vacuum is set to a radius of 5-6 meters.  This represents an 83% and  75% reduction in effectiveness respectively.  This means that kavats will have the smallest pickup radius, but still are able to run around collecting loot while providing potent buffs to players from their own skillsets.

 

So that's my idea, with some justifications for why it is set the way it is.  Please feel free to discuss the merits of this idea as civilly as possible, and do avoid using the post button if you can't make a constructive post because no one needs to read how everything if fine because none of the changes impact just you personally.

[(XBOX)Shodian]

We do have three other threads about this. Not sure why we needed another one. 

[Avereth]

You have failed to read the OP I see, thanks for the bump I guess?  This is for discussion of the concept presented for future reference.

[TaylorsContraction]

*facepalms at the maths*.

Comparing the volumes of the spheres is silly to start with. Most of that volume is empty and aside from occasional loot falling through the floor or elevation variation, most of the time you only care about one half of that sphere's volume. Suddenly you're 1:14 ratio went to 1:7. Yes 12 meters is greater than 5, but how much of that is needed? From the video steve put up it is MORE than enough imo.

 

 

[----Fenrir----]

4 minutes ago, TaylorsContraction said:

*facepalms at the maths*.

Comparing the volumes of the spheres is silly to start with. Most of that volume is empty and aside from occasional loot falling through the floor or elevation variation, most of the time you only care about one half of that sphere's volume. Suddenly you're 1:14 ratio went to 1:7. Yes 12 meters is greater than 5, but how much of that is needed? From the video steve put up it is MORE than enough imo.

 

 

You do not use bullet jump to collect loot? I mean you can go and test yourself how much of a nerf it really is. Replace the full rank vacuum in your Carrier with a unranked version and you have your 5m range.

[Jakorak]

Counter-proposal:

Warframes get passive 12m loot (credits,resources,blueprints,mods,endo) vacuum because that's what the majority of people care about, as missing resources that you earned is punishing design

Companions (sentinels,kubros,kavats) get a 1 rank (like coolant leak) mod for vacuuming 5-12m of tactical resources(ammo,energy,health,oxygen) so those that don't like wasting unused tactical resources to have a choice of using it or not.

boom. EVERYONE is happy. except for the Devs that passive aggressively nerf good design as a cash grab for their boosters

Edited October 5, 2016 by Jakorak

[Chipputer]

27 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

What's in it for the people who like to use Carrier?

They can still use Carrier with an ammo mutation precept along with a smaller vacuum.

27 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

For the people who never felt like they'd want to use other sentinel?

Find me one person who said they used Carrier because of Carrier and not because of Vacuum.

28 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

For the people who despite loving carrier, have no problem switching companions every now and then? None of them asked for a Vacuum Nerf.

Nobody asked for a Vacuum nerf. Not a single person. Not a one. Not even people against universal vacuum.

 

Take a moment and think-- What has DE been pushing the game toward? More user interaction with the enemies and environment, in general. They lower vacuum down to 5m and make it universal across every other Sentinel, letting them keep their powerful precepts (seriously, I'm willing to wager that 89% of MR 8-10+ players don't realize exactly how powerful Wyrm, Diriga, and Djinn actually are). This forces us to stay on the move and interact with the environment while allowing us to be more efficient killing machines. It makes perfect sense. It's perfectly fine. You never needed to be able to loot things the next hallway over without even knowing they were there.

inb4 another overblown, "I DON'T PLAY THIS GAME TO PICK THROUGH LOOT," post which implies something that doesn't even happen to non-vacuum users.

[EmptyDevil]

The right way to do Universal Vacuum would be the following IMO:

- Vacuum is now innate to Warframes.

- Vacuum does not suck up energy orbs, health orbs, ammo, and life support.

- Range is 7 meters in the front, and 9 meters for peripheral(equal to a rank 2 Vacuum).

- Chesa's Retrieve now brings your weapon to you if you're disarmed by a Drahk Master. Chesa's Retrieve will bring dropped energy orbs, health orbs, ammo, and life support to you.

Mag's passive:

- Bulletjumping pulls armor shards toward Mag.

Now you have the choice of bringing any Sentinel, Kubrow, Kavat, or none at all.

Edited October 5, 2016 by EmptyDevil

[----Fenrir----]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Take a moment and think-- What has DE been pushing the game toward? More user interaction with the enemies and environment, in general. They lower vacuum down to 5m and make it universal across every other Sentinel, letting them keep their powerful precepts (seriously, I'm willing to wager that 89% of MR 8-10+ players don't realize exactly how powerful Wyrm, Diriga, and Djinn actually are). This forces us to stay on the move and interact with the environment while allowing us to be more efficient killing machines. It makes perfect sense. It's perfectly fine. You never needed to be able to loot things the next hallway over without even knowing they were there.

inb4 another overblown, "I DON'T PLAY THIS GAME TO PICK THROUGH LOOT," post which implies something that doesn't even happen to non-vacuum users.

Food for thought. The basic loot pick up range of warframes is 3m. And that is basically nothing and you have to move directly over loot in order to pick it up. And 5m is barely any better. Just use Carrier with an unranked version of vacuum and see for yourself how bad it really is,.

 

Edit: It seems an unranked vacuum has already 7m of range. But it should still give you an idea about how bad 5m would be.

Edited October 5, 2016 by ----Fenrir----

[taiiat]

7 minutes ago, Jakorak said:

good design

i don't think that means what you think it means. not in this situation.

[Carnage2K4]

1 hour ago, TeaBegging said:

If you really think that nerfing Vacuum, was a good marketing choice then you are wrong.

 

[(PSN)Elctrcstel]

1 minute ago, Carnage2K4 said:

+1 for the dude haha

and one of the best comebacks in cinematic history 

Edited October 5, 2016 by (PS4)Elctrcstel

[VocalMagic]

3 minutes ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

Food for thought. The basic loot pick up range of warframes is 3m. And that is basically nothing and you have to move directly over loot in order to pick it up. And 5m is barely any better. Just use Carrier with an unranked version of vacuum and see for yourself how bad it really is,.

Unranked is 7m, isn't it?

Edited October 5, 2016 by VocalMagic

[shyguyk]

That picture with the frost showing the radius astounds me. people want THAT MUCH range?

Why even have enemies drop stuff. Just gain loot/energy/ammo spontaneously if that's what they want

[Jicematoro]

1 hour ago, Chipputer said:

inb4 another overblown, "I DON'T PLAY THIS GAME TO PICK THROUGH LOOT," post which implies something that doesn't even happen to non-vacuum users.

I'll keep it short then.

Falling down a pit to ATTEMPT to grab loot that fell in it, is not good user interaction.

Running in circles to grab as much loot as we can, is not good user interaction, and looks goofy for what's supposed to be a Sci-Fi Ninja.

We have guns, we shoot enemies at a distance, but we can't loot them from a distance on this Sci-Fi Enviroment.

We lose a good thing, and get a meh thing in return.

Also, You should probably read into "What's in it for X" means.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Jicematoro
Food for Thought, can't the Sentinels get Carrier's Maxed Range? Is getting loot from a distance really nerf worthy?...

[Chimera_Prime]

I'm with you on this OP.

I don't always use carrier, but i do quite often.

Right now the only half way point i can find personally is that they just shift the vacuum precept to sentinel. let the dust settle and see what happens. Rather than a nerf it the hell into the ground and never touch it again like what happened to the synoid gamacore and other nerfs.

[DEADSHOT456]

2 hours ago, ----Fenrir---- said:

And most other sentinels are really not an alternative for Carrier Prime in most cases simply because they are so damn Squishy! I was using Helios to scan the nightmare event units this weekend and I basically had to use Loki and stay invisible in order for Helios to survive more than ~30 seconds into the match and actually do some scanning.

About this. I too was using my Helios during the event. Mine was not dying unless I went down. So, it seems like squishy is a problem that you yourself need to work on. I don't really feel they are squishy, up until the point when I go down and my stupid sentinel agro the enemies. So, in essence, this part is not exactly an argument, rather a personal problem.

 

[Avereth]

8 minutes ago, Jakorak said:

Counter-proposal:

Warframes get passive 12m loot (credits,resources,blueprints,mods,endo) vacuum because that's what the majority of people care about, as missing resources that you earned is punishing design

Companions (sentinels,kubros,kavats) get a 1 rank (like coolant leak) mod for vacuuming 5-12m of tactical resources(ammo,energy,health,oxygen) so those that don't like wasting unused tactical resources to have a choice of using it or not.

boom. EVERYONE is happy. except for the Devs that passive aggressively nerf good design as a cash grab for their boosters

This would honestly be beyond great, but I get the impression that DE doesn't want to give it to warframes at all, sadly.  I'd certainly prefer the companion version to be closer to 12m than 5m myself so that it took less maneuvering just to loot.

[Jakorak]

3 minutes ago, taiiat said:

i don't think that means what you think it means. not in this situation.

The point is that good loot, or in fact any loot lost due to not seeing the loot, or it glitching out of the map in the early-middle stages of the game is a painful, frustrating, negative experience. Is making your players frustrated and unhappy with the base mechanics of progression, ESPECIALLY at the early stages of the game when they're most likely to decide the game uses predatory tactics and leave before actually becoming a customer, really good design?

[AngryBAsian]

22 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

The right way to do Universal Vacuum would be the following IMO:

- Vacuum is now innate to Warframes.

- Vacuum does not suck up energy orbs, health orbs, ammo, and life support.

- Range is 7 meters in the front, and 9 meters for peripheral(equal to a rank 2 Vacuum).

- Chesa's Retrieve now brings your weapon to you if you're disarmed by a Drahk Master. Chesa's Retrieve will bring dropped energy orbs, health orbs, ammo, and life support to you.

Mag's passive:

- Bulletjumping pulls armor shards toward Mag.

Now you have the choice of bringing any Sentinel, Kubrow, Kavat, or none at all.

Thats pretty much saying "fck you nekros"

Edited October 5, 2016 by AngryBAsian

[kontradictions]

Give all Sentinels 5m vacuum passive

Give Carrier a mod that bumps vacuum back up to 12m.

Basically leave Carrier alone and give the other Sentinels a 5m vacuum passive.

[EmptyDevil]

Just now, AngryBAsian said:

Thats pretty much saying "fck you nekros"

Not really, especially when you consider how many orbs he can force to spawn in a given area. I never used Vacuum with my Nekros Prime for health orbs and my build has no efficiency + Despoil. No problems dealing with lv100~ enemies with this build.

[PsiWarp]

27 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

The right way to do Universal Vacuum would be the following IMO:

- Vacuum is now innate to Warframes.

- Vacuum does not suck up energy orbs, health orbs, ammo, and life support.

- Range is 7 meters in the front, and 9 meters for peripheral(equal to a rank 2 Vacuum).

- Chesa's Retrieve now brings your weapon to you if you're disarmed by a Drahk Master. Chesa's Retrieve will bring dropped energy orbs, health orbs, ammo, and life support to you.

Mag's passive:

- Bulletjumping pulls armor shards toward Mag.

Now you have the choice of bringing any Sentinel, Kubrow, Kavat, or none at all.

Not bad, but make vacuum suction range stack with Warframe and Companions equipped, like Enemy Radar + Enemy Sense + Animal Instinct + Stealth Drift.

[EmptyDevil]

Just now, PsiWarp said:

Not bad, but make vacuum suction range stack with Warframe and Companions equipped, like Enemy Radar + Enemy Sense + Animal Instinct + Stealth Drift.

That would leave room for abuse IMO(AFK builds, like Greedy Pull before it was changed). It's better to just remove it from Companions and integrate it into the Warframes, or to integrate it into all Companions with the same level of effectiveness with no stacking.

[Letter13]

Moved to General Feedback.