Bladestorm rework feedback

[aerosoul1337]

16 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

What if say, they made Blade Storm a stance ultimate based on Duration rather than toggle-drain? What if it had 3 combos (basic E>E>E, E>E>pause>E and E>RMB+E>E).

Basic: deals damage and nothing else
Pause: Opens enemies to Finishers
RMB: features dash/lunges (similar to manics) for rapid movement in battle.
Finisher attacks creating mini-bladestorms, essentially every time you do a Finisher clones finish-off nearby enemies.

Actually, otu of the things they could have done, they picked the second worst one, the worst would have been World on Bladestorm. I would prefer if they push back and do actual rework rather than delivering a lazy and pointless change.

At first I was against "stance rework".
On second thought, along with combos, you can also do a lot of things with PARRY, such as...

Ranged parry: A good timing parry than press E allows you to teleport to the (ranged) damage source and perform some quick aoe slashes on multiple targets.

Channeling parry: When parrying, activating Channeling just before being hit will releases a radial wave that marks nearby targets, marked targets will suffer bleeding proc from any source of damage.

[Nazrethim]

1 minute ago, aerosoul1337 said:

At first I was against "stance rework".
On second thought, along with combos, you can also do a lot of things with PARRY, such as...

Ranged parry: A good timing parry than press E allows you to teleport to the (ranged) damage source and perform some quick aoe slashes on multiple targets.

Channeling parry: When parrying, activating Channeling just before being hit will releases a radial wave that marks nearby targets, marked targets will suffer bleeding proc from any source of damage.

That sounds really nice too. It's been requested before adding a proper parry mechanic to the game.

[Sandtiger1987]

Since everyone is throwing in ideas, here's one from me 

Reduce range of current bladestorm to 15 metres, Ash kills one guy (one animation) and clones kill others. There would be a time window for next cast with reduced cost same as ripline or charge. Needless to say that the cost for one cast would need to be reduced as well. Maybe holding down 4 would highlight the enemies targeted so that we can choose our targets more precisely.

The current rework is already similar to teleport and the above one is more so. Perhaps teleport can be changed to location targeted blink with aoe blind.

I don't think another toggled weapon is a possibility. DE must have considered that and decided against it perhaps based on ROI.

[Tsoe]

now if they could improve shuriken while removing auto aiming...

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Englands Own said:

Unfortunately for Ash players Blade Storm is a cheap/cheesy move whereby pressing 4 once watch cutscene/rinse repeat until everything died.There really wasn't any game play to be had,so changes needed to be made.i'm not sure if marking is the answer but at least Ash players can actually play the game now and it gives it more synergy with his smoke screen.For any Ash players out there who enjoy watching warframe videos,check out Life of Rio,his favourite frame is Ash,he's a top level player but shows how to play Ash without constant the Blade Storm.

that cheesy move have kept me sane farming 7k oxium and not throw my controller on my tv everytine that osprey explodes.

point is some people enjoys him if ash fan are happy then what is the problem? i disagree that there is no gameplay. in solo mission you still run out of energy. in a team everything  explodes that you have to be fast targetting an enemy to initiate bladestorm. he is flimsy and will go down on higher content in one shot. 

if that change arrives in ps4 my ash will be collecting dust.

i think it is better to have a cooldown on ash bladestorm rather than the clunky fix. so you will have to strategize when use it rather than spamming it.

[Tsoe]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

that cheesy move have kept me sane farming 7k oxium and not throw my controller on my tv everytine that osprey explodes.

point is some people enjoys him if ash fan are happy then what is the problem? i disagree that there is no gameplay. in solo mission you still run out of energy. in a team everything  explodes that you have to be fast targetting an enemy to initiate bladestorm. he is flimsy and will go down on higher content in one shot. 

if that change arrives in ps4 my ash will be collecting dust.

i think it is better to have a cooldown on ash bladestorm rather than the clunky fix. so you will have to strategize when use it rather than spamming it.

ash... dust... same thing

 

next on the line is ember and Oberon

 

i would love a mark system for Oberon reckoning actually XD

 

and maybe ember could have less range but some damages reduction while her ultimate is active to make her less vulnerable?

Edited October 11, 2016 by Tsoe

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

That's why I think they need to hold off this a few months and fix him properly, as they change they have in mind doesn't solve anything. It's true we have 3 Stance ultimates, but they are mostly the same because DE choose to make them the same. Exalted Blade: spam E to get waves(because the combos are worthless)+autoblock from the front. Hysteria: Spam E (because the combos are worthless)+Invulnerability. Primal Fury: Spam E (because the combos are worthless)+you get more range. All of them Toggle-drains.

 

Actually, out of the things they could have done, they picked the second worst one, the worst would have been World on Bladestorm. I would prefer if they push back and do actual rework rather than delivering a lazy and pointless change.

I think you misunderstood my 'not a bad one' comment. While I do agree that putting the time in for a proper fix, is a very good idea, I would love to see a real rework to Ash and how he approaches the game, I don't agree that they should have done nothing until then.

The sad part is that you're right about the high chance that nothing else will happen to Ash for a long time after this, because they will feel like they've already fixed him.

But here's the issue; enough people are genuinely fed up of Blade Storm as it is now. Whatever my or your opinions are, the majority of the vote goes to 'fix him now' as opposed to 'fix him right'. The reason behind this particular change is to fix the 4 to Win mentality of him and stop that being an issue. The moment that it's stopped, they can then focus on fixing more of the game around us, and come back to him when there's a real solid plan of how to do that.

The goal of this rework (as I see it from the outside, not knowing the full minds of the developers) isn't to make Ash a better frame overall, it's a stop-gap between Ash being ridiculously spam-4 build, and actually fixing him. And there's so many things they could have done that are far worse than what they've suggested.

I'll put it this way:

If it were you, and you were being forced by majority vote to do something between now and the ability to develop a complete and viable Ash rework, what would you have done? Given the rules that you can only change Blade Storm, and you can only use the existing animations and programing that's in his kit now, adding to it if need be, but you are unable to change it to a completely new ability. What do you do? How would you work within those confines?

There's a good reason I put it this way, and that's because I have design experience, and experience of trying to please a committee with those designs. I'm a Print Designer by trade, and I have that kind of decision forced down my throat every week, I have to do something now, because the committee that is my client has decided to make a change, but not allowed me time to make that change in the correctly designed and fully integrated way, because I have to keep everything else about the design the same somehow. I understand the difficulty of working within those kinds of constraints. Whatever has been said in the DE meetings has come up with the result of; we must change Blade Storm, but no, we cannot rework the whole frame, just Blade Storm. Also you have to do this with the assets we have now, you can't create anything new.

This is the result, and as far as that goes, this is a good one. It's a change that, according to the majority, is needed, but it's not a full change.

Given that... yeah, I stand by my comment ^^

[Buzkyl]

Just  gonna put this out there.

Marking enemies should increase the power of Ash's other skills, so thee's grater incentives to mark enemies than purely Bladestorming them, i discussed it in my own revision of Ash as a frame.

Shuriken

• -Shuriken knockdown  enemies hit.
• Ash will launch 1 shuriken at all Targets "marked" by BS within his LoS/Field of view.

 

Smockscreen

• On cast, staggers nearby enemies.
• Creates a smokescreen of X meter in radius at point of cast.
• Allies within smokescreen gain increase evasion while within smoke screen.Enemies who pass through smokescreen suffer an accuracy debuff of X%.
• Smokescreen can be recasted but invisibility will not be refreshed.
• Targets "marked" by Bladestorm will suffer suffer a slightly increase accuracy debuff

While the buffs don't necessarily have to follow along what i proposed they should follow a similar line of reasoning.

• Smokescreen can stagger nearby enemies, blinding those marked by BS
• Teleport is instant to marked targets
• Shuriken deals increased damage to marked enemies.

 

Right now Ash is present with a new mechanic, might as well try to work with it and provide extra synergy for him.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Buzkyl

[Shockwave-]

On 10/10/2016 at 5:09 AM, Azrael said:

 

Their prototype is not single target. Why do you keep repeating this idea? You're misrepresenting the ability. And don't give me that "it'll be impossible to use on more than one enemy" nonsense. You hold down your 4 and sweep across enemies. If you can't do that to more than one enemy, no rework will be able to help you. You're grossly misrepresenting how hard things are just so you can complain about them. And may I remind you that you haven't ever used the ability?

 

Just because it's an opinion doesn't mean it isn't an overly melodramatic one. Now you have to sweep your mouse around for a second, and it's line of sight, and you're crying "literally unplayable!"

 

Actually it is a single target from what I said. IF you mark more than your team will have killed the first one you marked. It certainly isn't more than 2. In a 4 man sqaud this is a single ability. If you take time to mark 4-5 some will be dead before you bladestorm from allies. Even with BS now teammates kill some of your "marked" enemies while they are red. You really think a 4 man squad isn't going to clear out your marked enemies. I do. Which is why I stated clearly they should demo a 4 man team fighting in the same room before deciding on this rework....

It will be literally unplayable... in terms of usefulness. no it can be done of course, but it will be less effective in almost every situation as compared to using your gun.Given the reworks in the past and the changes to the game to don't take into account all facets. I'm betting this hasn't been tested in a real world 4 man squad that sticks together, making BS a solo only skill with marginal effectiveness. For a 4 ability that's a pretty big downgrade.

 

What other frame has to aim their 4 at each person?

Ivara is the only one I can even think of, and the rest of her kit is super useful to compensate.

Mesa perhaps but you don't have to literally aim at each target.

Ember, Volt, Rhino, Hydroid Saryn, Nezha, etc all have ultimate that just target a buch of guys and kill/dmg them in addition to some CC thrown 

Mirage, Loki etc have wide range CC as a 4

 

BS has to be aimed at each person you want to target, then aimed AGAIN if you want to hit them more than once (for a clone strike), THEN has time delay as you execute bladestorm. I can't think of another ultimate that is that restrictive.

 

[Oranji]

So with all the Ash feedback here and there.
I thought I'd post one too.
Not that I expect anyone to care really...

So here goes (sigh)...

===========================================================================================================================
1. Shuriken

• Tapping #1 fires the same 2 shurikens you've all been using for a few years now.
• Press and Hold fires 8 Shurikens with a base cost of 50 energy (affected by efficiency ofc)

Augment - Seeking Shuriken

• Fine as it is.

===========================================================================================================================
===========================================================================================================================

2. Smoke Screen

• Ash throws down a smoke bomb that staggers "blinds" enemies for a short duration within a radius of 10 20 meters. Ash becomes untargetable for 2 / 4 / 6 / 8 seconds.
• It blinds alright. Smoke obstructs field of view plus that *stagger* effect is pretty useless.
• You can throw smoke bombs while running without stopping. Can you imagine that?

Augment - Smoke Shadow

• Now affected by *Range* mods. Wow that is so freaking innovative!

===========================================================================================================================
===========================================================================================================================

3. Teleport

• Same but with better 360 area of detection trigger for finishers using melee.
• Great. We no longer need that Band-Aid mod "Fatal Teleport". Either way you want more "interaction" right? So let's go ahead and replace that automated teleport with:

Augment - Oh Hello~!!

• Because suddenly appearing out of nowhere will surprise the F out of those troops and shock them. Enemies around the target you teleported to are knocked down - leaving them open for ground finishers for you and your teammates. You know how slow you get up after getting hit with that bursa? Yeah that kind.

===========================================================================================================================
===========================================================================================================================

4. Bladestorm

• Pressing 4 toggles the "Assassins Mark" mode. Marked enemies amplify the effect of all your abilities. Small energy cost upon activation none while toggled.
• Pressing 4 after marking enemies summon "Shadow Clones" that Bladestorms them (no not you). The enemies are no longer invulnerable while clones perform their finishers.
• Marked enemies take double the damage from Shurikens.
• Marked enemies within the radius of a casted Smoke Screen takes twice as much crit damage for a short duration.
• Marked enemies that you teleport to becomes "Fatal Teleported". Yes you get to use your edgy assassin katars with a much simpler & faster animation similar to landslide & slash dash.

===========================================================================================================================
 

Conclusion:

• Some team utility with now a useable Smoke Shadow. Micro cc -> finishers with Oh Hello augment. Armor Stripping capabilities with Seeking Shuriken x8.
• Pressing 4 now leaves you with more options while retaining that teleporting ninja feel to it.
• It's no longer a vomit/migraine fest.
• And lastly, this is probably never going to be implemented nor will DE ever bother reading it so don't take it seriously. Thanks!

 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by Oranji

[trunks013]

I did bother clicking ^.^ 

Prety good ideas

1,2,4 are perfect.

but for you 3 i would prefer to be more like "hello i'm archmed" ... just kidding i like this idea too.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Given that... yeah, I stand by my comment ^^

And you made a fine case defending your comment. Well done.

[(XBOX)Englands Own]

I don't think the issue is with Ash fans, it's a one button cut scene, that DE want to address.In solo as you said, a more thoughtful approach has to be made, but it's the constant Blade Storm in parties that makes him a cheesy frame.My opinion only (I hate to see an Ash in my party).But that's just my opinion.Maybe as you said regarding a cool down period, that would work better.I'd just like to see him a more party friendly frame.

[(XBOX)EntrTheLight]

So i know Ash is getting a change soon, however, it wont stop me from being creative and possibly create some what-ifs.  So, here is my version of Ash Prime:

Passive: Consealed Destruction: Stealth Kills do two times as much damage as normal.   Stealth kills with a dagger will increase chance of rare resources by 10%. 

 

Ability 1: Shuriken

Tap or hold ability. Tapping will throw 3 status based shurikens that will stagger enemies.  (Based off of secondary status effects, power range, and power strength).    Holding will continuously fire shurikens to deal damage.  (Based off of secondary critical and damage stats, power efficiency, and power range).  

-Augment: Super Shuriken: changes the held ability to a charge ability.  Instead of continuously firing shurikens, Ash will charge one massive and powerful shuriken that will cut anything in its path.  This ability will require a charge before each shuriken is thrown.

 

Ability 2: Smoke Bomb/Smoke Screen

Throws a smoke bomb that expels a very thick cloud of smoke ( size of cloud based on power range).  Enemies caught in this smoke will act as if they were being suffocated, starting with a stagger and the longer they remain in smoke, will turn into them dropping their weapons and making enemies vulnerable for finishers/stealth attacks. Power duration will effect how long smoke will last, power strength increases the 'suffocation' effect.

-augment: concealed smoke: Ash or any ally who is in the smoke will have rither a armor boost or temporary invisiblity, based on how many enemies are trapped in the smoke and the Ashs' power strength.

 

Ability 3: Teleport: No major change.  Teleporting on allies will grant that ally to be invulnerable to effects such as traps like lasers and also adds a few seconds to allies for panel hacking temporarily...based on power duration.  

 

Ability 4: Shadow Blade.

Ash will turn into a shadow and will be able to move as a shadow, and will have options to come out of the shadows quickly to slay a targeted enemy. This would be a toggle ability based off of power effeciency. Ability strength will be based on both Power strength and melee mods (status and crit-possibly also covert lethality). Energy will drain faster with every kill, until ability is exited.

Notes: enemies can see shadows in open areas and will have the power to hurt you and even sometimes kicking you out of shadow blade.  Best used in the shadows.

 

Well, that is my idea for ash.  I tried not to make it completely overpowered, but ill let you all decide that.  I am also open to some suggestions as well... perhaps you might have some ideas to improve Ash.  

What are your thoughts?

Edited October 13, 2016 by (XB1)SAOxSonicKirito

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

How is Ash getting a nerf? Did you even watch the dev stream when they talked about him ? Just because they're making the 4th require players to play the game doesn't make it a nerf. DE wants to stop the "press 4 to win" in return Ash's BS is now actually getting MORE damage to compensate for making players actually play their game and not look at one enemy, press 4 then hit half the map with BS. reworks are never an actual nerf I don't know why people think it is ....

[(PSN)ghinellil]

Why not wait to try the rework, before suggest something else?

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

Why not wait to try the rework, before suggest something else?

It's actually pretty common these days everyone calls it a nerf w/o testing anything. It was the same thing with parkour 2.0  everyone hated it before it was out and thought it would nerf your speed in combat but now everyone loves it because you can still move really fast and control it. 

[Marine027]

1 minute ago, (PS4)ghinellil said:

Why not wait to try the rework, before suggest something else?

Becasue we apperently need another 20 Threads about this Topic before thigns are even written in stone.

[(XBOX)EntrTheLight]

13 minutes ago, SolaireTheSunWalker said:

How is Ash getting a nerf? Did you even watch the dev stream when they talked about him ? Just because they're making the 4th require players to play the game doesn't make it a nerf. DE wants to stop the "press 4 to win" in return Ash's BS is now actually getting MORE damage to compensate for making players actually play their game and not look at one enemy, press 4 then hit half the map with BS. reworks are never an actual nerf I don't know why people think it is ....

Right..sorry, i didnt catch it actually.  So its not getting nerfed... i apologize.  I didnt realise that was out so soon... either way thats not gonna stop me from suggesting other idea possibilities.  Ill try to look up this update soon.  As apparently i missed a big update.

[SolaireTheSunWalker]

19 minutes ago, (XB1)SAOxSonicKirito said:

Right..sorry, i didnt catch it actually.  So its not getting nerfed... i apologize.  I didnt realise that was out so soon... either way thats not gonna stop me from suggesting other idea possibilities.  Ill try to look up this update soon.  As apparently i missed a big update.

No need to apologize and it's cool to give suggestions on him nor am I trying to say you can't. Not sure if my message came off  wrongly but all the matters is it's not getting a nerf no need to worry about that. The video shows the new rework for BS 

[TaylorsContraction]

8 hours ago, Buzkyl said:

Just  gonna put this out there.

Marking enemies should increase the power of Ash's other skills, so thee's grater incentives to mark enemies than purely Bladestorming them, i discussed it in my own revision of Ash as a frame.

 

  Hide contents

 

Shuriken

• -Shuriken knockdown  enemies hit.
• Ash will launch 1 shuriken at all Targets "marked" by BS within his LoS/Field of view.

 

Smockscreen

• On cast, staggers nearby enemies.
• Creates a smokescreen of X meter in radius at point of cast.
• Allies within smokescreen gain increase evasion while within smoke screen.Enemies who pass through smokescreen suffer an accuracy debuff of X%.
• Smokescreen can be recasted but invisibility will not be refreshed.
• Targets "marked" by Bladestorm will suffer suffer a slightly increase accuracy debuff

While the buffs don't necessarily have to follow along what i proposed they should follow a similar line of reasoning.

• Smokescreen can stagger nearby enemies, blinding those marked by BS
• Teleport is instant to marked targets
• Shuriken deals increased damage to marked enemies.

 

Right now Ash is present with a new mechanic, might as well try to work with it and provide extra synergy for him.

 

I think this would synergize really well if they made making a two cast toggle that I suggested.

First cast turns on making mechanic. Don't have to hold 4 down just tap 4 to turn the toggle on. Then at least the first suggestion above can be used easily.

I would add that if an enemy is marked, instead of teleporting to it via teleport, instead ash would just send a clone at the target.

Whenever he feels like it, ash can then tap 4 again at any time to perform bladestorm on all marked targets.

[TaylorsContraction]

Good suggestions, I think most players would like to see increased interaction between marked enemies and Ash's 3 skills.

[aerosoul1337]

3 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

I think this would synergize really well if they made making a two cast toggle that I suggested.

First cast turns on making mechanic. Don't have to hold 4 down just tap 4 to turn the toggle on. Then at least the first suggestion above can be used easily.

I would add that if an enemy is marked, instead of teleporting to it via teleport, instead ash would just send a clone at the target.

Whenever he feels like it, ash can then tap 4 again at any time to perform bladestorm on all marked targets.

To be honest I don't like the concept of mark enemy at all.

You need clean line of sight for each target and mark them 1 by 1, you could have killed those targets with your weapon already.

Even you decide not to, your teammates will kill them.

Slow is not fit for a ninja.

[Chewarette]

The only thing that may be acceptable for their "marking strategy", imo, would be something like :

- Hit 4 to start marking XX enemies in LoS (without needing to manually target them), with some energy drain while active

- Hit 4 to launch Bladestorm, the longer you marked enemies the higher the damages. You could wipe out an entire room of low-level enemies by just spamming 4 2 times in 1 second, but that would require a bit more for high-level units

Something like McCree's ult in Overwatch.

But anyway I think this marking thing will be way too slow for a game like Warframe, meaning guys wanting to have high bursts will just chose Mirage or whatever frame with instant nuke

Edited October 12, 2016 by Chewarette

[Buzkyl]

7 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

To be honest I don't like the concept of mark enemy at all.

You need clean line of sight for each target and mark them 1 by 1, you could have killed those targets with your weapon already.

Even you decide not to, your teammates will kill them.

Slow is not fit for a ninja.

It takes little effort in passing your mouse over an enemy. You can just wave past a group of mobs.

And it shouldn't be a race to get the most kills anyway, that is whee balance begins to fail. Because people are trying to get the most kills, in the least time with the least effort possible.