can we talk about the synoid simulor?

[Tyrian3k]

41 minutes ago, theraot said:

And what next? People may migrate to Ignis and Amprex, give these to a Mirage and cry.

Strangely enough, they'd hesitate to use the Zarr, Ogris, Penta, Stug etc... We're in the strange place where DE has arbitrarily decided which AoE weapons deal self damage and which ones don't.

Personally, I'm not sure if AoE weapons were ever a good idea to begin with. Blowing whole groups of enemies up without having any notable downsides is kind of hard to balance against the regular weapons.

The Zarr is in a comparably good place, because it allows the player to switch fire modes for enemies that get too close, rewarding players that pay attention. It can't just be spammed brainlessly while still killing everything in sight like certain other weapons, but still rewards you with a ton of damage if you do well.

 

45 minutes ago, theraot said:

Can we talk Mirage?

Hall of Malevolence

Why? Mirage didn't need this o.o - Power creep is what you see, in particular warframe specific augments are hard to balance.

Mirage's HoM, with or without augment, has caused numerous problems already and, to be frank, I think the whole ability needs to be reworked. Otherwise, it'll just cause more problems in the future. It can easily be abused to cause performance problems with certain weapons and if those were used more frequently, people left and right would complain about it.

[RG870]

How about you stop crying for nerfs (except for Trinity - Wednesday, you know) and simply leave a game if you don't like the way your teammates play this CO-OP BASED game? I rarely ever used Ash, I rarely ever use the Simulor. I haven't touched my Mirage since she reached lvl 30. And still I don't mind people using those things and "stealing" my kills and I still think that all those "famous" nerfs of the past (Trinity -  YES, TRINITY, Synoid Gammacor, Valkyr, Ash, Viver, Draco ... to name just a few) were wrong. If it gets annoying I simply leave the game and play with another group.

Who am I to try to force my idea of gameplay onto other people? I want frames to be different. I want weapons to be different. If it happens that combining some of those makes them much more powerful than other tools, so be it. I don't have to use them. I rarely play "meta", I use the frames and weapons which I have most fun with. But I still don't begrudge it to others if they have fun the way they want to play and this means "meta" and "overpowered". If I don't have fun in such a game I simply leave.

I'd rather leave 90% of my games instead of crying for nerfs because I know where this leads us, especially regarding DE's attitude to overnerf things instead of balancing them.

Edited January 2, 2017 by RG870

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, Tyrian3k said:

Personally, I'm not sure if AoE weapons were ever a good idea to begin with. Blowing whole groups of enemies up without having any notable downsides is kind of hard to balance against the regular weapons.

 

It was a good idea before they decided to onslaught players with hordes of enemies continuously with no end.

Doesn't really matter if they nerf Simulor. Another AoE tactic will take it's place.

I dunno why people haven't figure it out yet either. No one uses single target in DIablo3 so why would you use it in this game.

I actually prefer damage per shot weapons like Bows but I'll never use them in this game because they're not properly rewarded.

At any rate, if they allow players to jump into higher level content then players will quickly realize that Simulor kinda sucks when enemy eHP gets high enough to survive a few pulses and Mirage just RNG dies. She's not fun to play past lvl 120 at all. Not even my top 10 picks for endurance runs.

They both have limitations that the avg player never sees because after 3 years of Power Creep they're still fighting the same level range enemies.

 

[-_Highlander_-]

God what do i miss my Synoid gammacor if i see this complaining about an mirage and Simulor how annoying those are.. well i beg the diffrent 

i play allot with mirage an Simulor .. but only when its needed ill use it in squads set myself into an corner an fire away .. this only for blocking bigger groups of enemys that can run over you're squads

high lvl enemys for example those can be killed quick with Synoid simulor .. only you get less distance to shoot

I personaly think if you communicate in chat for less spamming from Mirage you'll be fine ( not that this is always the case )

The only thing i hope is that Devs reverse the Nerf on Synoid Gammacor .. and you'll wil see less Simulor beeing used in missions

this is the reason you see more Simulor and Embers during the missions >.< think about that 

 

i dont have much to import on this mather butt hey its an opinion as i see it 

and sorry for the missspelling :)

[theraot]

2 hours ago, issh0man said:

i personally play akkad because i enjoy the smaller map, its easier for me to run and pick up drops as well as see everything that's going on around me and get to other players easily if they happen to go down. i prefer akkad especially if i'm playing as trinity as it's much easier to make sure everyone is being effected by EV + blessing. i would be willing to try the derelict, i just use akkad as my go-to since it's a lot simpler and so many people play it that it's very easy to get a squad quickly.

@issh0man It is unfortunate that Derrelict lacks in popularity, as it currently stand you don't have to make keys to access it anymore. I hope more people give it a try (in pariticular if they wan to farm those pesky Mutagen Samples).

2 hours ago, issh0man said:

as for the simulor, i genuinely do not want it to be nerfed, i personally do love the weapon, i just get frustrated when i go into the mission and it's just me and two others standing around doing nothing since the enemies are being sucked in by 3 different vortexes. ;; i guess nerfing it would be the only way to solve the abuse issue, but i don't want anything huge to be taken from it.

No, it is not the only way. They can tweak the enemy scaling... I mean, they could have the enemies ramp up enemies[1] quickier if they are being killed too fast (eg: before they get to attack).

[1] Deciding in general if they have to increase the number or the level is harder. If I were in charge of this, I would decide based on the type of kills: If it is single target kills, get more quantity. If it is AoE get more level.

2 hours ago, issh0man said:

the damage is nice, it's good for CC when it gets wildly hectic, but when it's calm and you're waiting for the enemies and the moment they step foot into the arena and they get sucked up, it becomes boring and less fun. a lot of players don't explode their orbs either, which i find frustrating too.

There is little incentive to explode the orbs when there are no enemies around. As the simulor does accumulation damage, it means that keeping them will make killing the next wave faster. In that order of ideas, making them explode sooner may make the player consider their ammo economy, that may help... but I don't think it will make a huge difference.

2 hours ago, issh0man said:

and goodness no i don't want people to leave the game, i just want the playing experience to be more enjoyable. it's already boring having to grind for xp itself, and going into a mission and doing nothing just adds onto it. :( it might be enjoyable for the synoid player, but not everyone is bringing a synoid into the mission.

There have been changes in the past that made people leave the game, sad but true.

I don't really think leveling is much fun for the synoid user, instead I think it is just that way to make it quickier because it is a chore they don't want to be stuck doing for much time. At least a lot of people use Hydron for leveling which I'm ok with because it makes for a good relics farm. Yet if you can get an endless fissure I would suggest that, it is a more interesting challenge (not because of the enemies but because of the combination of mechanics) that should be less boring.

2 hours ago, issh0man said:

i hope i've made more sense and i'm very sorry if i came off as aggressive towards anyone or in general, that wasn't my intent at all. i genuinely just want everyone to be happy (which is impossible, i know) but just leaving doesn't solve the problem for anybody.

I wouldn't have posted if were thinking you were being aggresive.

---

The general problem is DE getting us to try other things, such as other weapons, other maps, etc... if we could suggest more ways for them to get that, it should help to make warframe a better game.

---

1 hour ago, Tyrian3k said:

Strangely enough, they'd hesitate to use the Zarr, Ogris, Penta, Stug etc... We're in the strange place where DE has arbitrarily decided which AoE weapons deal self damage and which ones don't.

@Tyrian3k This is true, I have used Penta a long time ago, but I haven't even considered the the others... will do. I guess they don't drag much attention. I also agree with the rest of your post btw.

[Jackviator]

On 1/1/2017 at 10:45 PM, issh0man said:

if you don't mind me asking, what's the telos boltace thing i've seen a few mention? i've never seen it before (or maybe i have, i'm not sure), and i main valkyr but haven't heard of it.

MGIBlaze does a pretty good job of breaking down why this thing is OP and brainless as hell. (The relevant stuff starts about 2 minutes in). 

Yeah, DE fixed the Life Strike thing, but the rest of what he talks about still applies. Constant slash procs, other statuses being applied, the potential for mass AOE finisher damage, etc etc etc. These things can nuke anything in a 24 meter radius with the press of crouch+attack, so what's not to like/loathe?  

...And another reason I don't like the things is how blinding they are. If someone is spamming these things in your squad and they have pretty much any semi-bright energy color, you just cannot see what the hell you're doing.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Jackviator

[Yusif854]

Fight fire with fire. And if you can't beat them then join them :D

[(PSN)CharlieX05]

The xp is the exact same...if you want fun while leveling up the stay out of akkad. I get so stoked when i join an akkad and theres a simuMirage or a speed nova zenistar.

Tbh the people who run around and melee make the mission take longer and they annoy the s*** out of everyone else.

Just go by an affinity booster so you dont have to do akkad and bother with us who want to rank up fast.

[CherryPauper]

On 1/1/2017 at 10:23 PM, RTFT.NL said:

If you don't like the squad you are in, quit or extract.

 

This. I have the same frustrations as the OP, but I generally just abort as soon as I see a Miragulor in my game.

[dopey_opi]

I don't mind Mirage, and I don't mind Synoid Simulors.  I see no reason to nerf either... at least, separately.  The interaction however between Mirage and the Synoid Simulor is what frustrates me.  Being able to form a very high damage stack in a single shot is just broken, it's so overpowered it (in my opinion) verges on being an exploit.  I think that the Synoid Simulor shots fired from Mirages' doppelgangers should be tied to that individual doppelganger.  At full rank, Hall of Mirrors fires from 2 doppelgangers - have the simulor shots ONLY stack per doppelganger and follow the reduced damage.  That way the weapon is used as intended - taking multiple shots to form stacks - but with the ability to form two extra stacks that damage at the doppelgangers' damage rate (Hall of Malevolence, naturally, should increase said damage for consistency's sake).

Adjusting the mechanics of these 'god' weapon combos is just common sense.  It kills the fun, and very frequently the frame rate, of everyone else in the cell and thus it's really detrimental to the game's overall health and this stuff has gone on too long.

[(PSN)minuteofdecay]

Leave it alone, this is how my 7 year old daughter gets to play semi hard missions. 

If you don't like how someone is playing then leave, why should you get to dictate how EVERYONE gets to play.

[Fallen_Echo]

On 2017. 01. 02. at 10:31 AM, RG870 said:

How about you stop crying for nerfs (except for Trinity - Wednesday, you know) and simply leave a game if you don't like the way your teammates play this CO-OP BASED game? I rarely ever used Ash, I rarely ever use the Simulor. I haven't touched my Mirage since she reached lvl 30. And still I don't mind people using those things and "stealing" my kills and I still think that all those "famous" nerfs of the past (Trinity -  YES, TRINITY, Synoid Gammacor, Valkyr, Ash, Viver, Draco ... to name just a few) were wrong. If it gets annoying I simply leave the game and play with another group.

Who am I to try to force my idea of gameplay onto other people? I want frames to be different. I want weapons to be different. If it happens that combining some of those makes them much more powerful than other tools, so be it. I don't have to use them. I rarely play "meta", I use the frames and weapons which I have most fun with. But I still don't begrudge it to others if they have fun the way they want to play and this means "meta" and "overpowered". If I don't have fun in such a game I simply leave.

I'd rather leave 90% of my games instead of crying for nerfs because I know where this leads us, especially regarding DE's attitude to overnerf things instead of balancing them.

Too bad this comment will get buried under the mountains of salt some people hoard here.

 

But in all seriousness can someone point out any nerf what was needed or justified?!

Nerf this, nerf that.... everybody comes here to cry out their eyes because some weapon is "tooo easy". ACCEPT IT!

Just stop it already. No one likes nerfs, no one likes when his weapons got degraded into trash because someone couldnt handle killsteal in a game where kills dont matter!

The only rework i agree with is to do tune down the effects and the sound of it but thats all.

 

When will the community grow up and ask for buffs?!

We need weapons buffed up, enemies buffed up, frames buffed up we have too many trash already.

[Wiergate]

1 hour ago, (PS4)minuteofdecay said:

 

If you don't like how someone is playing then leave, why should you get to dictate how EVERYONE gets to play.

 

To reiterate the argument which gets brought up in every one of these discussions: the SS/Telos Boltace-with-macro players have already done exactly that - dictated how the rest of the mission is going to play out for EVERYONE else. They unilaterally decide that your participation in the mission is going to be null, zip and zero. It even leaves others feeling a bit resentful because it feels as if though they're leeching in spite of there being nothing they can do to contribute to the mission.
'If you don't like it, take off' - and hope you won't get a cheeselord in the next squad as well. Which you probably will.  

The arguments for and against this kind of behavior aren't exactly complicated. Possibly the underlying cause is, and it's not going to be solved by a nerf or two. It seems very much like a clash of cultures between people who were attracted to Warframe mainly because they're FPS enthusiasts who enjoy the speed and the gunplay, and those who are old hands in the MMO scene and consider grinding a way of gaming life.
Warframe has wound up as a strange sort of amalgamation of the two.

At this point I wonder how much control DE actually have over the game's internal economy, whether that refers to affinity or resources. Possibly their rather aggressive attempts to further organized clans are a way to try and accommodate both groups - I dunno, but if so I think it's a sound idea. Even a necessary one. If I'm right about the above, I can barely imagine how difficult it must be for them to juggle the conflicting interests.

For myself, I signed up to be a space ninja performing miracles in the arts of gun and blade while bullet-jumping high above the glorious visuals. Not to stand around blinded and then sullenly collect the loot between waves.  
These days I can afford to take off and ignore those resources, but there was a time when I couldn't. Currently, we're all treading on one another's feet since some people feel that I slow missions down by not emulating their tactics to annihilate every enemy before they've even left their spawn points.

I do hope that DE can find a way to strike a balance between the demands of the game economy and the simple pleasure of enjoying the game for what it is.
Until then, we're going to see a new thread like this on nearly a daily basis.

Peace 

[(PSN)minuteofdecay]

6 hours ago, Wiergate said:

 

To reiterate the argument which gets brought up in every one of these discussions: the SS/Telos Boltace-with-macro players have already done exactly that - dictated how the rest of the mission is going to play out for EVERYONE else. "Snip"

Oh stop with that argument. I new at warframe so I don't know all the ins and outs, but you see this in every game so and so is OP nerf so and so they don't play how I like to play. These ppl that use this do not restrict how you play they are doing what you want to do kill the bad guys bbbbbbuuuuutttttt since they do it faster than you its a problem.

Where is the outcry about the frames that kill the adds before they can even leave their spawn? There are a few that I've seen in my short time of playing (Jupiter IO defense) where I have to go in every spawn to get the goodies. Or the frames that slow down all the enemies and they move so slow I can kill them without worrying about dieing, these ppl are changing how I get to play too, its no fun if I can't die. 

The best and only solution to this 😢 is to leave if you don't like how someone else is playing, make your own group, if you pug you are AGREEING to play with who and what ever you get.

6 hours ago, Wiergate said:

 

[ThereShallBeWings]

On 02/01/2017 at 4:45 AM, issh0man said:

if you don't mind me asking, what's the telos boltace thing i've seen a few mention? i've never seen it before (or maybe i have, i'm not sure), and i main valkyr but haven't heard of it.

Not sure as to the specifics but I just did a game with a mirage who did nothing but slide attacks and everything exploded before I could even look at it, was hella boring for the other three of us.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

14 hours ago, (PS4)minuteofdecay said:

Leave it alone, this is how my 7 year old daughter gets to play semi hard missions. 

If you don't like how someone is playing then leave, why should you get to dictate how EVERYONE gets to play.

That's a very shallow argument.
Why should your 7 years old daughter take priority before a million other players who are unfairly waiting behind a wave of vortex?

I have nothing against her playing, however I'm against giving her privilege like mini-nuke throwing weapon just to make it so that she can play.
Any weapons can be modded to kill in any type of mission up and until level 80+ with almost no effort.
Needless to say AoE weapons have an unfair advantage when it comes to killing multiple enemies since they deal more damage than most weapons and do so in an explosive area.

Let her join another server with a second experimented Simulor player and let us see if she actually enjoy walking behind a few hundred corpses while the other player is already at the extraction, done and over with the exterminate in 2 minutes because he didn't have to aim at anything. Not only once, but for an entire day.

As for the second line argument : Why should THEY dictate how I play? Just by joining they prevent us from playing the game how it's designed.
We're not playing exterminate, we're playing chase the mira-simulor.
We're not defending an objective, we're drinking tea on it while someone's spinning in circle around the pod at high speed dropping tonkor nades and simulor vortex in every corner.
We're not protecting interception console, the enemies are stuck in spawn listening to the latest Banshee Quake remix.

This is not the game, it's what players made out of all the free cheese out there. AoE type of weapon/power needs to be fixed.
 

Edited March 14, 2017 by (PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[(PSN)minuteofdecay]

8 hours ago, (PS4)XxDarkyanxX said:

That's a very shallow argument.
Why should your 7 years old daughter take priority before a million other players who are unfairly waiting behind a wave of vortex?

I have nothing against her playing, however I'm against giving her privilege like mini-nuke throwing weapon just to make it so that she can play.
Any weapons can be modded to kill in any type of mission up and until level 80+ with almost no effort.
Needless to say AoE weapons have an unfair advantage when it comes to killing multiple enemies since they deal more damage than most weapons and do so in an explosive area.

Let her join another server with a second experimented Simulor player and let us see if she actually enjoy walking behind a few hundred corpses while the other player is already at the extraction, done and over with the exterminate in 2 minutes because he didn't have to aim at anything. Not only once, but for an entire day.

As for the second line argument : Why should THEY dictate how I play? Just by joining they prevent us from playing the game how it's designed.
We're not playing exterminate, we're playing chase the mira-simulor.
We're not defending an objective, we're drinking tea on it while someone's spinning in circle around the pod at high speed dropping tonkor nades and simulor vortex in every corner.
We're not protecting interception console, the enemies are stuck in spawn listening to the latest Banshee Quake remix.

This is not the game, it's what players made out of all the free cheese out there. AoE type of weapon/power needs to be fixed.
 

She doesn't take priority but neither do you. She wouldn't care getting kills don't make the game for her.

You joined a pug group, a random group, when you did you agreed to play with anyone using anything. If you don't want to play with cheesy players then make ur own group where you can control who plays what.

[RistN]

On 2.1.2017. at 5:19 AM, issh0man said:

that's....not the point i'm trying to make? i don't go into missions to stand around idly, i want to be part of the fight too but the synoid makes it difficult and nearly impossible at times.

Then bring some support warframes like Sonar Banshee,Rhino Roar,Speed Nova or anything else that will make youre team do missions faster and more easy.Not everyone in team needs to have dps warframe,actually i hate when this happens.But most important thing you need to know is don't expect from random teaams they will play way you like or dislike.

[Luzzu]

On 3/14/2017 at 4:36 AM, dopey_opi said:

I don't mind Mirage, and I don't mind Synoid Simulors.  I see no reason to nerf either... at least, separately.  The interaction however between Mirage and the Synoid Simulor is what frustrates me.  Being able to form a very high damage stack in a single shot is just broken, it's so overpowered it (in my opinion) verges on being an exploit.  I think that the Synoid Simulor shots fired from Mirages' doppelgangers should be tied to that individual doppelganger.  At full rank, Hall of Mirrors fires from 2 doppelgangers - have the simulor shots ONLY stack per doppelganger and follow the reduced damage.  That way the weapon is used as intended - taking multiple shots to form stacks - but with the ability to form two extra stacks that damage at the doppelgangers' damage rate (Hall of Malevolence, naturally, should increase said damage for consistency's sake).

Adjusting the mechanics of these 'god' weapon combos is just common sense.  It kills the fun, and very frequently the frame rate, of everyone else in the cell and thus it's really detrimental to the game's overall health and this stuff has gone on too long.

Agreed 100%. The interaction between the two is ridiculous. I've abused the combo myself and it does feel like the doppelgangers should not interact with the Simulor. I don't think one or the other needs a nerf, but the interaction between the two is one that is too strong, in my opinion, having used it pretty extensively lately. Granted, it's not the best choice in all mission types, it is excessively strong in any mission that has point defense. It would make me sad to see it nerfed because in a way, it is fun to use with Mirage, but the interaction is certainly a bit on the crazy side.

[(PSN)minuteofdecay]

1 hour ago, Venule said:

Agreed 100%. The interaction between the two is ridiculous. I've abused the combo myself and it does feel like the doppelgangers should not interact with the Simulor. I don't think one or the other needs a nerf, but the interaction between the two is one that is too strong, in my opinion, having used it pretty extensively lately. Granted, it's not the best choice in all mission types, it is excessively strong in any mission that has point defense. It would make me sad to see it nerfed because in a way, it is fun to use with Mirage, but the interaction is certainly a bit on the crazy side.

Totally agree and any warframe that are almighty with max duration or max range shouldn't be able to use those types of mods. Cause a speed nova or volt can lock down an entire map with these. Ember can kill everything ...where do we stop to make everyone happy?

[PatternistSlave]

On 1/1/2017 at 11:08 PM, issh0man said:

i use akkad to farm for xp, and i do actually try to fight enemies

This is your problem right here.  The synoid simulor isn't even the best tool we have to farm this loot cave extremely easily.   (The one killing everything gets less exp btw.)  Which is why it's a loot care.  Stop going there expecting different.  The entire rest of the starchart is there for you do kill to your hearts desire.  Or get a group together.  Ask for credit farm at Akkad and you can all use the secura lectas this sort of thread got nerfed.

[Wiergate]

25 minutes ago, PatternistSlave said:

Which is why it's a loot care.  Stop going there expecting different.

I agree to some extent, but the same is true of Io for low-level gear and frames, then Helene, then Hydron or Stöfler, perhaps after a detour to Berehynia. 
At this point we're like tourists trying to find the hidden pearls the all-inclusive charter companies haven't ruined yet.

A thought off the top of my head: why don't Maim-traders, TB-macroists (that's a word now), WOF Embers, Miramulors and so forth find each other in Recruiting under the heading 'Lf XP farm'? That's what recruiting is for, but in public groups the cheese tactics are the norm rather than the exception. Why isn't it the other way around?

[(PSN)minuteofdecay]

2 minutes ago, Wiergate said:

I agree to some extent, but the same is true of Io for low-level gear and frames, then Helene, then Hydron or Stöfler, perhaps after a detour to Berehynia. 
At this point we're like tourists trying to find the hidden pearls the all-inclusive charter companies haven't ruined yet.

A thought off the top of my head: why don't Maim-traders, TB-macroists (that's a word now), WOF Embers, Miramulors and so forth find each other in Recruiting under the heading 'Lf XP farm'? That's what recruiting is for, but in public groups the cheese tactics are the norm rather than the exception. Why isn't it the other way around?

Because those ppl don't care what group they get in. You do so its up to you toget a group you want.

[Wiergate]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)minuteofdecay said:

...its up to you toget a group you want.

...which is what the recruiting tab should be for when there's a specific goal in mind. Or so I thought. 

We'll never get anywhere with this: if the majority agree with you I'll accept that and consider the lesson learned. I think it's a crying shame for a co-op game, but I can adjust. 

[BansheePrime]

On 1/2/2017 at 1:01 PM, Jackviator said:

 

And I feel the need to mention how infinitely worse it is then this considering how everyone has a slide attack macro and attacks 100 times a second because one shotting my enemy wasn't enough. Gotta give my team high quality eye cancer!... and kill that one guy who did not die on the first attack by some magic.