[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Konachibi]

So after being grouped with multiple Limbo's that spam Stasis and getting thoroughly annoyed by it (we've all been there), I've had a few thoughts on how to keep it how it is but make it far less annoying.

First of all a bit of a foreword as to the reason why this should be changed.

Not too long ago the Simulor and Tonkor were nerfed.  They were nerfed because, as DE said, they went against the idea of teamwork.  Instead of players all working together to kill enemies and accomplish missions, instead 3 players stood around unable to do anything because one guy was nuking the entire room and removing the things to shoot at.

Now, Limbo's Stasis currently does this, except it doesn't remove the enemies, they're still there, but nobody can shoot at them so long as Limbo's Stasis is active inside a Cataclysm, so Limbo is basically turning off 2 of a Warframes 3 weapons, along with some abilities too (it affects Ivara's Navigator for instance, which means Ivara has wasted energy if Limbo has Stasis on when she tries to use it).  Not everyone wants to spam melee just because Limbo thinks it's funny to stop bullets being bullets, and not everyone has a melee weapon modded well enough to output the kind of damage they can do from a primary or secondary weapon, so Stasis is, the majority of the time, simply tanking everyone's damage.  It's entirely a negative effect, with no positive other than enemies aren't doing anything for a few seconds, which is something other Warframes can do without screwing up the teams weapons at the same time (Spear build Nezha's for example).

Now on to the idea.  At the moment, any Warframe inside a Cataclysm is at the mercy of Limbo's Stasis with no choice otherwise except to get out of the Cataclysm and try to pick off enemies outside of it.  Since most Limbo's will put their bubble at a choke point, that leaves the other players with slim pickings to shoot at.

Instead of this, allow players to 'opt in' to the effects of Limbo's Stasis.  Seperate Stasis from purely 'in the rift' to 'banished in the rift'.  If a player isn't banished but is in the rift via Cataclysm, Stasis will not have an effect on them, their guns will still work like they should, however if the player is banished and in the rift, whether it's in a Cataclysm or not, THEN Stasis will effect their weapons.  

Obviously we can't be expecting Limbo's to have to cast Banish on a player before they use Stasis, so an idea would be that if the player rolls whilst inside a Cataclysm, they do the same forward dash animation as Limbo (since Warframes all work on presumably the same skeleton since they all share animations so it shouldn't be too hard for them to make it available to all Warframe models), and become banished as if they had stepped into a rift portal (the one's Limbo leaves behind when he rolls).  The banish effect would persist so long as they stay within the Cataclysm, and once they leave it it'll count down according to the normal banish duration of that Limbo, along with allowing them to roll out of it like normal.

Also obviously if Cataclysm isn't involved and that player is simply banished via a rift portal Limbo left behind, Stasis would effect them, but since they can roll out of a banish it';s their choice to make in that case.  This idea is mostly to stop the Stasis + Cataclysm combo from nerfing player weaponry and remove Limbo's ability to troll the group, as it makes the effect completely optional to other players.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Konachibi

[(PSN)theelix]

But then it'd also be too powerful, and no one would have a reason to actually be in Cataclysm because it would do what pre-nerf buffed nerfed Radial Blind and pre-nerf Prism did: Stop all enemies from doing anything through walls with no downside to anyone but a slight inconvenience the caster. 

But then again, who cares? It'd just make the game easier. I like any idea that makes it possible to trivialize "difficulty/challenge" in this game further. +1

[LSG501]

We all know that the main issue that people don't like is cataclysm + stasis so thats what needs the fix more than anything so personally I think all they need to do to stasis is change it very simply to a 'freeze target' approach (ie like vauban bastille) rather than a 'stop time' approach that it is now.  

We'd still get the frozen enemies and all it's benefits but we can shoot them, slice them, hit them do whatever to them like we can in normal situations.  Realistically all the dev's would need to do is remove the 'stop time' on bullets and allow full damage from all weapons at their normal rates of damage.

Cataclysm would basically be bastille inside a globe where we can't get damaged and we don't need to worry over enemies etc. 

[PsiWarp]

IMO there are several mechanical changes I would like at least tested:

1. Allies gunfire and projectiles are slowed to bullet time speed inside the Rift while Stasis is active, but they never stop moving. Limbo and enemies' gunfire and projectiles will still freeze instantly.
   • This change allows allied players to use guns inside the suspended Rift, altering their optimal use from long range to close range combat; ally projectiles no longer negatively impact Stasis' projectile limit for the long term, since they don't stop moving they will despawn on contact with enemies and surfaces.
   • Limbo can still organize his own barrage of projectiles at his leisure. The Rift is still a safety net against enemies when Stasis is turned on.
2. Enemies taking weapon damage during Stasis causes them to slowly resume their speed over a few seconds (e.g. 2 to 3 seconds), after which they will freeze again. Damage from Warframe abilities do not unfreeze enemies.
   • Made with imbalance concerns in mind. During their recovery time when unfreezing, enemies have a very small window of opportunity to retaliate before they are doomed to freeze again. Of course, gunfire and projectiles will freeze instantly, so only melee and special attacks are viable against nearby players (as long as you play smart, you won't get hit).

[-Defeater-]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

But then it'd also be too powerful, and no one would have a reason to actually be in Cataclysm because it would do what pre-nerf buffed nerfed Radial Blind and pre-nerf Prism did: Stop all enemies from doing anything through walls with no downside to anyone but a slight inconvenience the caster. 

But then again, who cares? It'd just make the game easier. I like any idea that makes it possible to trivialize "difficulty/challenge" in this game further. +1

you can still 
A) lock down everything with vauban and have the same exact effect, and 
B Still melee everything, which is arguably the best weapon type in the game. 

you can do this also with banshee, who atm can be used to just kill everything on the map instead of cc it.

AND on top of it, eventually stasis runs out, and all enemies would take the same damage anyways. this change would just make it less annoying to be playing with a limbo. 

[(PSN)theelix]

11 minutes ago, -Defeater- said:

you can still 
A) lock down everything with vauban and have the same exact effect, and 
B Still melee everything, which is arguably the best weapon type in the game. 

you can do this also with banshee, who atm can be used to just kill everything on the map instead of cc it.

AND on top of it, eventually stasis runs out, and all enemies would take the same damage anyways. this change would just make it less annoying to be playing with a limbo. 

Vauban doesn't cause an inability for you to be hit by anything outside the range of its ability, has a far lower limit to the amount of enemies that can be held, and arguably has less CC due to the fact that some enemies(even if you're under the enemy limit) will randomly negate being effected for unknown reasons. 

B is a nonpoint. Melee isn't good unless you have Naramon, and Naramon just trivializes the game entirely. 

Banshee cannot do this, as any flying enemy is excluded from her ability, and any open map will have her sniped. 

 

But it's not like we learned anything from the first set of Radial Blind nerfs anyway. Let's make it hap'n again cap'n. Can't wait until they find a way for Cataclysm and Stasis to only work in line-of-sight, and some how be blocked by non-hitscan projectiles and/or invisible corpses. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by (PS4)theelix

[-Defeater-]

Just now, (PS4)theelix said:

Vauban doesn't cause an inability for you to be hit by anything outside the range of its ability, has a far lower limit to the amount of enemies that can be held, and arguably has less CC due to the fact that some enemies(even if you're under the enemy limit) will randomly negate being effected for unknown reasons. 

B is a nonpoint. Melee isn't good unless you have Naramon, and Naramon just trivializes the game entirely. 

Banshee cannot do this, as any flying enemy is excluded from her ability, and any open map will have her sniped. 

 

But it's not like we learned anything from the first set of Radial Blind nerfs anyway. Let's make it hap'n again cap'n. Can't wait until they find a way for Cataclysm and Stasis to only work in line-of-sight, and some how be block my non-hitscan projectiles and/or invisible corpses. 

ok but it doesnt matter if you have the whole room cc'd. literally spam 3 with vauban and it does the same thing. sure it doesnt maybe last as long, but long enough. 

Melee only good with naramon.....plz be troll. also how is it a non point? we already have the ability to kill things while they are frozen, its probably the most relevant point i made. 
banshee does this on every xp farm on bere. one rhino roar and oops anything under level 60 is toast as it spawns. granted this is with all cp but its still doable. 

and like i said, everything will eventually die anyways. its just annoying to wait for limbo to hit 2 again or for the stasis to collapse from too many projectiles. you literally gain NO DAMAGE from everything dying right away. you dont find it annoying to try and shoot at stuff just to have no effect?

[(PSN)theelix]

1 minute ago, -Defeater- said:

ok but it doesnt matter if you have the whole room cc'd. literally spam 3 with vauban and it does the same thing. sure it doesnt maybe last as long, but long enough. 

Melee only good with naramon.....plz be troll. also how is it a non point? we already have the ability to kill things while they are frozen, its probably the most relevant point i made. 
banshee does this on every xp farm on bere. one rhino roar and oops anything under level 60 is toast as it spawns. granted this is with all cp but its still doable. 

and like i said, everything will eventually die anyways. its just annoying to wait for limbo to hit 2 again or for the stasis to collapse from too many projectiles. you literally gain NO DAMAGE from everything dying right away. you dont find it annoying to try and shoot at stuff just to have no effect?

Cataclysm works on every tileset with one cast, especially effective on entirely open planet surfaces. Vauban needs multiple casts, is no where near as effective, and have a far lower limit for even the more moderately open rooms. 

Please explain any scenario in which melee without Naramon is better than using any other weapon. The ability to damage something because you've run out of ammo on both your primary and secondary is a non-point. 

Not even going to address Banshee's Sonar, because it's not even in the same category of powers. 

[-Defeater-]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

Please explain any scenario in which melee without Naramon is better than using any other weapon. The ability to damage something because you've run out of ammo on both your primary and secondary is a non-point.  

when you can kill enemies in stasis without waiting for it to go away.

you know

like ive said twice. 

41 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

Not even going to address Banshee's Sonar, because it's not even in the same category of powers. 

you dislike the lockdown of entire tiles and the easiness that allowing weapons to not freeze in the rift would bring (which is a flawed argument as ive already said we can hit stuff in the rift with melee, havent even gone into warframe powers) but you dont think banshee, a frame with 700 energy and the ability to lockdown the tile shes in and every spawn it has insta killing isnt a problem. if you have a problem with making stasis less annoying, you have to have a problem with banshee

 

[(PSN)theelix]

2 minutes ago, -Defeater- said:

when you can kill enemies in stasis without waiting for it to go away.

you know

like ive said twice. 

Because that's an actual advantage, rather than your lack of simple patience in a game designed entirely around the idea of longevity and waiting.

By that logic, a diving kick is arguably the second best weapon in the game, since it can hit things in Cataclysm Stasis. The Staticor are arguably the best Secondaries in the game since they forcibly destroy Cataclysm Stasis the fastest. The Tonkor is the best Primary in the game because it can remove Cataclysm Stasis the fastest. 

 

4 minutes ago, -Defeater- said:

you dislike the lockdown of entire tiles and the easiness that allowing weapons to not freeze in the rift would bring (which is a flawed argument as ive already said we can hit stuff in the rift with melee, havent even gone into warframe powers) but you dont think banshee, a frame with 700 energy and the ability to lockdown the tile shes in and every spawn it has insta killing isnt a problem. if you have a problem with making stasis less annoying, you have to have a problem with banshee

 

A power that can expand infinitely, does not provide crowd control other than the obvious "oh it's dead, situation controlled" is not in the same category as a power that focuses on inhibiting enemy movement entirely and negating all enemy actions outside of a designated area, making it almost impossible for them to affect you if they're outside of that area. 

One power is a damage bonus, the other is a crowd controlling ability. Not the same category. 

If you're talking about Banshee's Soundquake, again, it doesn't account for any flying enemies and leaves her, being at the center of said ability, completely unable to defend herself. If your range is too small, you die. If there are any moderately damaging flying enemies, you die. With Limbo, those problems don't exist. You could have a range of only 100% and nothing outside will be able to damage you. And it also scales better than having yourself completely immobile, and vulnerable to anything that flies, or can out range Soundquake, or can out endure your energy. With Limbo, all of those are not problems. Nothing can out endure Limbo in such a state, outranging Cataclysm isn't an option since the enemy has to be inside of it to damage you, and you don't have to just sit there. 

And I never said I disliked it, I'm saying that what happened to Prism and Radial Blind would invariably happen to Cataclysm if this idea were implemented, and it would be too powerful in the relative or comparative standpoint. Maybe you weren't here for any of those posts, or those patches. But essentially, no power like such is meant to be entirely advantageous.

Bastille has a limit to the amount of enemies, allows enemies from outside to shoot in also.

Soundquake leaves Banshee at the center of attention, and defenseless. 

Radial Blind is inconsistent, and requires a modified version of line of sight. 

Cataclysm and stasis stop you from hitting the enemy, in turn for almost complete invulnerability from anything inside, or outside of the bubble.

Having this change would be about as annoying as Excalibur was when Radial Blind was actually consistent and overpowered as S#&$. Because it would be exactly that: Old Radial Blind. There's a reason why it's "Old" and not "Current" Radial Blind. Mainly because it was entirely more useful than Banshee, since it scaled infinitely and didn't rely on unreliable stagger mechanics, it just worked and had absolutely no downside. 

If this change were implemented, it would remove the only downside that it has: forcing you to be in one area and to play by its rules. It would be old Radial Blind with some minorly annoying graphics. 

[-Defeater-]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

rather than your lack of simple patience in a game designed entirely around the idea of longevity and waiting

youve never played warframe have you

[Fallen_Echo]

So to everyone its clear that Limbos main problem is that he obstruct the way others play.

My suggestion is to implement new functions to rift surge to fix the problems.

Currently the main limbo strategy is to cast stasis and put up cataclysm to freeze an entire battlefield, but this forces all players to either melee the target or wait for stasis to end (or pop it with 8 pox projectiles, firerate grakata, etc...)

Now my idea is to modify rift surge to be castable on allies.

When Limbo casts rift surge without a target (or directly on an ally) it gives them a buff called Rift Indifference.

Rift Indifference, first of all this buff changes a players connection to the rift.

If you banish someone with the buff they enter the rift plane normally, but at the second they use an attack they are no longer affected by the plane restrictions. Enemies can shot them and they can shot enemies. When they stop attacking for 5 sec, they are put back into the rift or reality depending on what plane they were as long as banish still has duration left.

The second change is how Rift Indifference affects stasised targets.

When the buff is on, weapons can hit stasised targets normally without the bullet stop restriction. The difference is when a target is hit by a gun, they leave stasis. Enemies leaving the stasis this way are have their movement and attack speed slowed. The slow is tied to power strenght in an inverted way. At 100% the enemies are slowed by 50%. Getting more power strenght slows down attack speed by max 80% but increases enemy movement speed by 50%. Getting less power strenght increases movement slow to 80% but increases attack speed by 50%. (or just add flat 50% slow)

Its entirely up to limbo to cast rift surge on allies and the effect is up till he cancels it. Restrictuon for doing this is that limbo and his allies regenerate energy slower in the rift(no constant energy drain). Rift surge can still be used normally, limbo need to cast it directly on an ally to start up the buff.

 

What do you think can this solve the problems many players experience with him?

[-N7-Leonhart]

It definitely does need a way to interfere less with how others play, but I feel like they won't invest any more time into it. Limbo is probably not on their mind at this point...

[Fallen_Echo]

4 minutes ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

It definitely does need a way to interfere less with how others play, but I feel like they won't invest any more time into it. Limbo is probably not on their mind at this point...

I still have some hope that its not too late.

[Jangkrik]

Or just allow us to use projectiles during stasis? Whether through augment or changing the ability, I think most of us would be fine with that.

Edited May 6, 2017 by Jangkrik

[Hemmo67]

2 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

Or just allow us to use projectiles during stasis? Whether through augment or changing the ability, I think most of us would be fine with that.

touching them would make them move?

[Jangkrik]

Just now, Hemmo67 said:

touching them would make them move?

Ehh, I think it makes the ability worse. Why not just allow only projectiles (including the enemies' if fired prior to being banished) to move in there?

[chainchompguy3]

What DE imagined stasis+cataclysm would be:

"C'mon guys, I froze the whole battlefield. Lets unload all our clips, taunt the helpless enemies a bit, and then we can watch as I unfreeze everything, and all that stored damage comes hurtling towards them in a glorious explosion."

 

What people seem to feeling, based on the existence of threads like these:

"I want to see my damage numbers NOW! I shot at that enemy! It should be DEAD! Ragh! Curse you limbo!"

 

 

I'd almost say just make some sort of predictor system, where each projectile/hitscan shot gets it's flight path predicted, and shows enemy health as blacked out to show how much damage is predicted to be dealt upon unfreezing.

If it weren't for that probably being really hard to code for, and probably really intensive on lower end computers.

 

Because this isn't about limbo stopping you from killing: Stasis full-out makes it easier to kill, by letting you line up easy headshots and the like.

It's about how it feels. Because yes, it kinda feels like crap to not see the fruit of your effort.

[Fallen_Echo]

3 minutes ago, chainchompguy3 said:

What DE imagined stasis+cataclysm would be:

"C'mon guys, I froze the whole battlefield. Lets unload all our clips, taunt the helpless enemies a bit, and then we can watch as I unfreeze everything, and all that stored damage comes hurtling towards them in a glorious explosion."

 

What people seem to feeling, based on the existence of threads like these:

"I want to see my damage numbers NOW! I shot at that enemy! It should be DEAD! Ragh! Curse you limbo!"

 

 

I'd almost say just make some sort of predictor system, where each projectile/hitscan shot gets it's flight path predicted, and shows enemy health as blacked out to show how much damage is predicted to be dealt upon unfreezing.

If it weren't for that probably being really hard to code for, and probably really intensive on lower end computers.

 

Because this isn't about limbo stopping you from killing: Stasis full-out makes it easier to kill, by letting you line up easy headshots and the like.

It's about how it feels. Because yes, it kinda feels like crap to not see the fruit of your effort.

Lets not forget that stasis flat out stops beam weapons from working because it doesnt have a "projectile" to stop.

[Fallen_Echo]

27 minutes ago, Jangkrik said:

Or just allow us to use projectiles during stasis? Whether through augment or changing the ability, I think most of us would be fine with that.

Many people argue that it would make stasis "op" and that would cause people to not bring frost/rhino and other frames to missions.

My suggestion removes this aspect of stasis.

[JudgeXion]

I like Limbo as it is now, don't fix my Limbo. 

[devildevil21]

Actually, that strategy that "limbo mains" use is dumb.

 

Not everyone uses that strategy, and real limbo mains WILL NEVER use that strategy, unless solo, or the team is in a BAD situation.

 

Current strategy most GOOD limbo mains use is to drop cataclysm with stasis active, use rift surge and cancel cataclysm. So you and the enemies can fight 1on1 on the rift without allies being affected by stasis.

 

But guess what? Players still complain about that! Wanna know how? "It's annoying shooting enemies and they don't die..." "Limbo OMG STOP BANISHING!"

 

I've reached the point where if I move, I get attacked by my teammates because I did something someone didn't like.

 

That's why most limbo players right now are: "Ya complaining? Then leave. You won't be missed."

Because this limbo hate is hitting a point where players no longer even THINK that limbo CAN BE USEFUL, and downright attack limbo for even moving!

Edited May 6, 2017 by devildevil21

[Fallen_Echo]

2 minutes ago, JudgeXion said:

I like Limbo as it is now, don't fix my Limbo. 

This suggestion doesnt changes anything on limbos skillset apart from adding a castable effect to rift surge.

2 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:

But guess what? Players still complain about that! Wanna know how? "It's annoying shooting enemies and they don't die..." "Limbo OMG STOP BANISHING!"

Ofcourse they complain about that. Havent you seen how many post we had arguing how bad are invincibility mechanics are? This is the same. You cast cata, stasis the enemy, rift surge them, cancel cata and voiala your allies might as well sit down for a tea while you do all the fun.

Tell me would you be happy if another limbo in the team would banish out the targets you just pulled in or constantly place them on a different plane? Just so you cant deal with them like anybody else?

[JudgeXion]

1 minute ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This suggestion doesnt changes anything on limbos skillset apart from adding a castable effect to rift surge.

Oh okay I read somewhere in here about removing the stasis effect but I guess that was someone else. 

[devildevil21]

3 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

This suggestion doesnt changes anything on limbos skillset apart from adding a castable effect to rift surge.

Ofcourse they complain about that. Havent you seen how many post we had arguing how bad are invincibility mechanics are? This is the same. You cast cata, stasis the enemy, rift surge them, cancel cata and voiala your allies might as well sit down for a tea while you do all the fun.

Tell me would you be happy if another limbo in the team would banish out the targets you just pulled in or constantly place them on a different plane? Just so you cant deal with them like anybody else?

Oh, idk, have you never heard about this thing... how was it... oh yeah, called "Giving allies a breathing room"?

 

Limbo's supposed to bring X enemies to the rift, pwn them all while the allies go for other enemies WITHOUT having to worry about those enemies.

 

And don't forget, limbo is squishy, we are supposed to fight INSIDE the rift where enemies are stunned due to stasis. Not be a 24/7 revival warframe.