[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Fallen_Echo]

32 minutes ago, Stormandreas said:

- Again, banish has always been inferior, so being able to use it properly means nothing

Ofcourse its inferior, but would it been to much to ask for an indicator on what will get hit by it? Its damn tiring to accidentally banish a whole bunch of enemies into the rift when you just wanted to save someone.

- Stasis does NOT stop you or allies killing enemies. Abilities work, melee works. You can kill enemies while they can't kill you.

Surely i have nothing better to do than use an inferior melee weapon and not my powerful primary to take down the last 3 targets because limbo decided to cata stasis them. Also please tell my how my CC rhino supposed to kill these guys with powers, it can hardly kill lv 40 corpus.

- Yes, you do want those chargers frozen, because if they could have died faster, they would of, and wouldn't have needed to be frozen like that.

Now tell that everybody who is not playing limbo, that you felt the infested chargers were a threat to whoever play there .

- I do not need to do my research. As I've mentioned, stasis unlocks when it reaches its maximum limit. If you're firing 8 Pox darts (which have a slow fire rate anyway), you arn't taking into account any bullets the enemy may have fired when they were frozen (especially in the case of the Corpus who use slower moving projectiles), any bullets from sentinels, and from allies. THEY ALL ARE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT.
E.g. take a Sentinel with the Deth Machine Rifle, and stasis goes down very fast.

Again you have to do your research because 8 pox darts can bring dow stasis without any nearby enemies to make my sentinel attack. I tested this many times and came to the conclusion that projectile weapon ranfomly turn off stasis.

AND did you just ignored the fact that beam weapons are unable to function in stasis?

- When Cataclysm goes down, it does not keep enemies in the rift. If Cataclysm is gone, its gone, thats it. What keeps them in the rift is if you've decided to use Rift Surge. THEN they will all count as being banished. Solution, play Limbo as intended. Fight IN THE RIFT. He manipulates the rift plane to his advantage, and if you're choosing to fight on the material plane, then you're better off taking a different frame.

You mixed something up here. The problem is that cata kicks out limbo. I dont want to cast stasis,cata,surge only to get kicked out of the rift to be murdered by some grunt while the others wait helplessly.

- If players in your party are complaining about cataclysm and stasis, then they don't know limbos strengths.

Or they dont want to wait for limbo to precisily set up a bunch of trash mobs for execution, when they could already mow them down. No one cares about ash tagging mobs for execution when you can just rush in and murder them faster with ignis.

- Lastly, go 1v1 the stalker solo with Limbo. Now go 1v1 a Corpus Tech with Limbo. You'll find the Tech is a HELL of a lot easier than the Stalker. One shot from my hek in the face of the stalker instakills him while a scaled lv 50 corpus tech murders me if he has any chance.

Oh lets not forget about the rift surge strategy what renders every weapon useless expect frame powers. You know cata up, surge target, cata down, stasis up, limbo enters the rift while others are left out.

[Fallen_Echo]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)theelix said:

I'm guessing that's sarcasm. 

I have to sarcastically ask why, if you were a true Limbo user, not use Stasis before banishing them to save your teammate? 

Because i wanted to save him only. But the current banish has a growing cone form what makes that hard.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

14 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Oh lets not forget about the rift surge strategy what renders every weapon useless expect frame powers. You know cata up, surge target, cata down, stasis up, limbo enters the rift while others are left out.

^This is what I have been seeing in Pugs...a whole horde of enemies in Stasis with no Cataclysm and a Limbo who refuses to kill these targets in Defense missions.

*Also no Rift to enter from the Limbo

Can't melee them just waiting out some unknown (not indicated as non-limbo) timer. To try and kill these enemies before Limbo repeats this process.

Edited May 9, 2017 by (PS4)MrNishi

[VentiGlondi]

9 hours ago, (PS4)Muadika said:

when would you ever use Banish over Cataclysm?

Because Cataclysm pisses off your allies.

[Fallen_Echo]

15 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

Because Cataclysm pisses off your allies.

And unless you use dark energy color it can blind you.

[Azamagon]

I honestly think Limbo is better AND worse.

Before he was precise in his rift control and was a great "duelist". However, he sucked for crowds and Cataclysm was very hard to use correctly.

New Limbo has far less fine-control (lack of precision), but is much better at dealing with crowds. He also got WAY trollier than ever before with Stasis, at the same time as it is an amazing CC + melee fighting tool.

If there could be a more balanced midway, I think everyone would like it better. @Archwizard had some really good ideas, and I'd like to suggest those changes (only with a few personal twists /additions to them):

Banish:
Tapcast = Singletarget banishment, and once again works in either direction, regardless of Limbo's current state.
Holdcast = AoE banishment, also works in either direction, but only affect units who share the target's faction alignment and current Rift status.
General = Banishing hostile units who stand within Cataclysm will expel them from Cataclysm. Enemies within the Rift may not use control panels or environmental objects which remain outside of the Rift.

Stasis:
* Keeps the same initial cost, but also has a mild energydrain (which does NOT prevent any form of energyregeneration), scaling with the number of enemies caught by Stasis. This gives him an actual reason to have his energygain passive + a reason to not troll people with its projectilefreezing.
* Limbo's and his allies' projectiles are only paused for 2 seconds, then they are launched immediately (and you still launch everything at once if you deactivate Stasis of course). This keeps some of its current style, but massively reduces the trolling power from Limbo.
* Stasis no longer breaks after X projectiles are frozen, it only breaks if duration runs out, Limbo's energy runs out or if Limbo deactivates Stasis. This means that OTHER players can't troll Limbo either.

Rift Surge:
Revamped entirely = Now a radial debuff, which causes targets to detonate upon death, dealing a portion of their damage taken during Rift Surge to surrounding enemies on both sides of the Rift, but it no longer banishes nearby enemies. This means its an ability that works well on its own, but is easier to use along with the rest of his kit.
Augment = Either revamp it entirely, or finetune it so it's less OP with the new Rift Surge. And idea would be to instead make it (on top of the radial enemy debuff) buff Limbo upon cast, giving him things such as his old Rift Surge bonus (Bonus damage for himself while in the rift) along with his old passive (Faster weaponswapping and reloadspeed while in the rift). That would aid his killing power in a potentially less broken way.

Cataclysm:
* Now also draws in all control panels and environmental objects, allowing players and enemies to interact with them from within the Rift.
* Exiting or detonating Cataclysm will no longer remove Limbo from the Rift if he was in the Rift prior to entering the bubble.
* Cataclysm's detonation damage no longer cares about the remaining time/size, it ONLY takes average health into consideration.
* Cataclysmic Continuum also causes Cataclysm's size to increase based on the appropriate size for its current duration, but cannot extend Cataclysm's duration beyond its initial modded duration.

Rift dash passive:
* If you "roll" while being stationary, you'd toggle rift states WITHOUT the dash. To do the Rift dash, you have to be moving in some direction first.

General rift stuff:
* Being inside the Rift also removes collision against entities outside of the Rift
* Switching Rift states will damage/ragdoll any objects or enemies you "materialize within" on the destination plane.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Azamagon

[Fallen_Echo]

49 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

I honestly think Limbo is better AND worse.

Before he was precise in his rift control and was a great "duelist". However, he sucked for crowds and Cataclysm was very hard to use correctly.

New Limbo has far less fine-control (lack of precision), but is much better at dealing with crowds. He also got WAY trollier than ever before with Stasis, at the same time as it is an amazing CC + melee fighting tool.

If there could be a more balanced midway, I think everyone would like it better. @Archwizard had some really good ideas, and I'd like to suggest those changes (only with a few personal twists /additions to them):

Banish:
Tapcast = Singletarget banishment, and once again works in either direction, regardless of Limbo's current state.
Holdcast = AoE banishment, also works in either direction, but only affect units who share the target's faction alignment and current Rift status.
General = Banishing hostile units who stand within Cataclysm will expel them from Cataclysm. Enemies within the Rift may not use control panels or environmental objects which remain outside of the Rift.

Stasis:
* Keeps the same initial cost, but also has a mild energydrain (which does NOT prevent any form of energyregeneration), scaling with the number of enemies caught by Stasis. This gives him an actual reason to have his energygain passive + a reason to not troll people with its projectilefreezing.
* Limbo's and his allies' projectiles are only paused for 2 seconds, then they are launched immediately (and you still launch everything at once if you deactivate Stasis of course). This keeps some of its current style, but massively reduces the trolling power from Limbo.
* Stasis no longer breaks after X projectiles are frozen, it only breaks if duration runs out, Limbo's energy runs out or if Limbo deactivates Stasis. This means that OTHER players can't troll Limbo either.

Rift Surge:
Revamped entirely = Now a radial debuff, which causes targets to detonate upon death, dealing a portion of their damage taken during Rift Surge to surrounding enemies on both sides of the Rift, but it no longer banishes nearby enemies. This means its an ability that works well on its own, but is easier to use along with the rest of his kit.
Augment = Either revamp it entirely, or finetune it so it's less OP with the new Rift Surge. And idea would be to instead make it (on top of the radial enemy debuff) buff Limbo upon cast, giving him things such as his old Rift Surge bonus (Bonus damage for himself while in the rift) along with his old passive (Faster weaponswapping and reloadspeed while in the rift). That would aid his killing power in a potentially less broken way.

Cataclysm:
* Now also draws in all control panels and environmental objects, allowing players and enemies to interact with them from within the Rift.
* Exiting or detonating Cataclysm will no longer remove Limbo from the Rift if he was in the Rift prior to entering the bubble.
* Cataclysm's detonation damage no longer cares about the remaining time/size, it ONLY takes average health into consideration.
* Cataclysmic Continuum also causes Cataclysm's size to increase based on the appropriate size for its current duration, but cannot extend Cataclysm's duration beyond its initial modded duration.

Rift dash passive:
* If you "roll" while being stationary, you'd toggle rift states WITHOUT the dash. To do the Rift dash, you have to be moving in some direction first.

General rift stuff:
* Being inside the Rift also removes collision against entities outside of the Rift
* Switching Rift states will damage/ragdoll any objects or enemies you "materialize within" on the destination plane.

Now this is some fine rework! I would love to see this.

[Mousarchy]

the reason his rift/banish is the wway it is now is because the old version had issues with being toxic for balance and the main reason limbo kept getting nerfed. with it as is limbo can have some actual power since he actually has vulnerabilities now.
sure he still need tiny touchups here and there but MAN at first its a lil clunky to get used to but it flows more or less nicely (SITLL cant get used to his 3 pulling people back in the rift. which is cool when i want it to do that but too often i cant tell whos in or out of the rift. would like to just have people wibbly and see through if your in opposing planes)

[(PSN)Joshhwwaaaaaa]

So I like the new Limbo rework but, I also miss some things from the old Limbo. So I'm just going to note down what I think to be the ideal Limbo rework:

Power 1: limbo void control (go back to old way but make animation super fast)

Power 2: single target void control

Power 3: AOE/Group target void control

Power 4: tap-cast cataclysm, hold 1 second-cast cataclysm+stasis

 

Some other thoughts about Limbo

What I'm not liking about Limbo right now:

1 I miss how easy it was to control Limbo and other single targets in the void. Currently it feels messy.

2 I never use rift surge.

3 Getting into and out of the void affects Limbo's parkour, movement, and flow.

Where Limbo shines right now:

1 Limbo Nuke

 

In general the new Limbo rework I think has been successful but I think if we could combine the old and new it would be a win.

[Darkvramp]

No this would not work, while i agree with his 1 being very clunky, this would make it worse, and kill alot of what makes him really good now, so noooooooo.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

54 minutes ago, (PS4)Joshhwwaaaaaa said:

-Snip-

Those suggestions are just a drop to hell.
As you said :
-Powers 1 "Old way" is single target Banish, ( You probably mean the second power which was self-casted, in this situation, why not just adopt the "Hold" mechanic on banish, there's absolutely no benefit in wasting 2 abilities on single target rift switching )

-Power 2 is single target banish again

-Power 3 is the current AoE Banish?

-Power 4 removes the cost of Statis and stays as it is?
And amongst all those, we lose the one ability that has damage potential...
That doesn't feel anything like a decent rework.

While I agree that the current banish is messy your suggestions are simply killing Limbo to the non-existence point.

Rift Surge augment giving 30%+ damage for each affected enemies, you're missing out on something apparently, my only problem with Rift surge is that you can't cancel the effect at will.

Void Dash provide with half an invulnerability when running since you'll spend your time alternating between the planes, the only moment where I find it to be annoying is when I try
to hack into an objective.
Problem that could be solved in litteraly 1 step : Limbo gets thrown out of the rift when interacting with consoles. Other than that, he still jumps,run and do everything like the other warframes but he does so while getting energy and being partially invincible.

That version of Nuke Limbo will soon see the Nerf on ps4 and xbox1, the nuke will disappear.
 

[Celas_]

Limbo is awesome but why the hell we cant hack consoles? I need to close cataclysm, banish all enemies and hack the console... it takes too much time in Rescue

[HateSpawn]

Hi there, I'm an incredibly new player, who likes to deal damage. Been playing for about 2-3 weeks and I've gotten up to MR9.

I was drawn to limbo because an outdated tier list had described his dps potential as "wholesale slaughter". This was, presumably, before the cataclysm nerf, however nonetheless I wasn't informed of how or with what means he can deal such crazy numbers. All I can remember about the subject is that I immediately watched the "warframe profile" of limbo, back when 2 was rift walk. 

After having looked at Limbo after the rework, and being told that his nuke potential was heavily nerfed, I was really disappointed. However, all things considered I still wanted to try him out, his rift mechanics are nice and handy to have around, while his rift torrent damage seems really really good to me. Banish and Cataclysm also have been doing enough damage to one shot lighter enemies like moas and chargers on cast. Banish is also notable for being able to refill some energy if you get 3 or more targets blasted into the rift at the same time.

After reading some of these replies I wonder if I would hate the current limbo after having played the past limbo, but my biggest complaint is the lack of notification, and the lack of documentation. I have to explain at least 6 times a day that you shouldnt shoot while in dtasis, and that if we're running to the next point you should just follow me into the rift for a free 30 energy over time, and several other things. I'd almost like to see tooltips added for the first times you enter the rift, explaining that roll will remove the rift's effects, and that you cant interact with things out of the rift. Perhaps also a color shift in the rift while stasis is active. Maybe a tooltip would just irritate players who are aware of the mechanics already? I don't know.

in addition, the lack of documentation hurts me. I want to be an effective team player as limbo and I can't be exactly sure of how my abilities work, even after reading the wiki page on Limbo and the Rift Plane in their entirety, down to patch history.

but even with all of that, I don't understand the shape of my banish outside of a general idea. Is it large? Is it small? In addition, whether or not channeled abilities get energy while rifted is ambiguous. In all of my testing, people have told me that they are not getting energy while rifted and using s channeled ability, however the wikipedia article says that they should in most cases. 

All in all, I do have to say I'm very sad to see so many players who dislike him, and hope that some things change for your sake.

 

[UdsUds]

Today's logged 

I cleared a LOR with him, pretty fun though. Stage-1 best battery carrier although I cant help with the hack inside he provided aid to down allies while maintaning being gun down by enemies.. Stage-2 might be a little challenging to be able to help, I did help with the hacks and stasis during drive but remember to switch off quickly the cataclysm rift after applying stasis. Pads is still a problem with being inside the rift.. while stage-3 easy as I am able to carry battery inside the rift or do some stasis and let Ev Trin's job be easier as most my pub mates cant kill nor be kill by enemies/over killing. Still cant figure wether Vay heks missile pierces through the cataclysm rift if I put 1 on the tower he is standing onto might be great way to help too.

 

After reading through some of the comments and my exp with today on raid

1st change can drag enemies inside the rift w/o restriction while dragging an ally requires to be on the same plane

2nd interactions with objects while inside the rift.. pads only but if the Devs will add the hack, enemies might be able to hack through the center pad on stage-3

                                                                                ^ this might be op thou but hey :3

Edited May 12, 2017 by UdsUds
wrong spelling

[(PSN)Fogwash]

When I first saw this warframe, Limbo, I was in awe.  The player was on a mic and walked me through what I was seeing.  I didn't understand a bit of it, and was immediately hooked.

By this time,  I was far enough in the game that I had gone through a few warframes.  Hack and slash.  Ya, it's fun, but for me it was wearing off.  The goal seemed to be who could get the biggest body count as the mission ended.  Yes, some frames, for example Nekros, were fun to play with with the quirky abilities.....but it wasn't gelling for me.

I broke down and spent the plat and bought the frame.  For me the fit was just right.

Like all of us when we get interested in a new frame we hit the boards and I was somewhat shocked to see the negative comments.  This frame does it all.  If you want the high body count...it will produce it.  If you want to play a support role.  It will do it.  Whatever I ask of it it just does.  Even in the most chaotic survival situations it is often the maligned Limbo standing over the more popular frames reviving from the rift......(you never hear them complain about the rift while you are reviving them I have noticed.)

Now the down side.  It is complicated.  It takes quite a while to figure it out.  After all, going in and out of reality and different planes of existence isn't something most of us have experience with.  It is a subtle warframe and, in my opinion, should be treated as one, a light hand so-to-speak.

Limbo excels in a situation where people are using a mic.  If they are savy enough to know the Limbo's abilities......they are all the better for it.  The game designers are geniuses.  There is a frame for everyone and every personality.  I imagine a good psychologist could write a paper on it.  It is no surprise to me that many don't get Limbo.  I don't get some of the praise heaped on some of the more popular frames.  I just don't understand how people could waste their time with them.  The nice thing about this game is......we don't have to.  Nor is any one frame any better than the next.  In the end it is us holding the joystick, the warframe an extension of ourselves.  This is by design.

It isn't the responsibility of a Limbo player to educate other players anymore than other players responsibility to educate a Limbo player on their frame.  The main comments about "trolling" other players is too convenient a term.  If a Limbo player is using his abilities and another player doesn't understand what is going on.....that isn't trolling.  If someone doesn't like random groups, don't play them.  

As I move up in the game, I am taking the time to learn about the other frames, it is part of the game.  After all, I wouldn't want to find myself in a mission and think they are "trolling" me.

Long live Limbo!  The intelligent warframe, and thankfully.....one not over played.

 

 

[Zinthir]

Limbo requires zero thought and about 30 seconds on the wiki to learn about. No warframes are very complex whatsoever.

[DrBorris]

Limbo requires way more coordination than just about anything else in Warframe (even trials).

 

This is why public Limbos are so annoying, you can't ask for 3 random people to do pretty much what you say and be happy.

 

5 minutes ago, Zinthir said:

Limbo requires zero thought and about 30 seconds on the wiki to learn about. No warframes are very complex whatsoever.

Easy to learn, difficult to master. Sure, you can just melee everything but there is more nuance to his kit. Being able to play Limbo and use him to his potential are two very different things.

[Rambit23Z]

Currently, when you exit Cataclysm in any way, you get kicked out of the rift, whereas before you could still have the Rift on yourself due to Riftwalk being active. It would be nice if Being in the rift from your roll/dash was prioritized over Cataclysm.

[DYSEQTA]

If you want a more mentally demanding frame then build Equinox. She's about as demanding as they get in this game.

Edited May 13, 2017 by DYSEQTA

[FierceRadiance]

Don't disagree with the OP. But heavens to Murgatroyd I wish players had to pass some kind of test of cooperation skills in order to wear a Limbo. Something not unlike a MR test might be suitable.

I know that sounds harsh, and maybe it is. But for me the bottom line is, this is a co-op game, and in addition to everything OP said, if misplayed or just played selfishly, Limbo also has the ability to completely derail co-op play. That makes him a real double-edged sword for the rest of us. That said, honesty requires me to admit to a bit of selfishness of my own here - I'm not interested in being part of some Limbo player's learning curve. I avoid playing with them for the time being.

(As always, IMHO, reasonable minds can differ.)

[Pie_mastyr]

5 minutes ago, DYSEQTA said:

If you want a more mentally demanding frame then build Equinox. She's about as demanding as they get in this game.

seriously? The damage battery? Not really much thought other than, "Is 200k damage enough to kill these level 100 corpus?" Now you can do a rest augment cc finisher build but that doesn't take a whole lotta brain power either.

[Arezael]

You've stumbled upon a minor gameplay point, I'm not sure it was intentional.

As someone who used to recommend voice communication for competitive fps, microphones stand as a good comparison for Limbo as a Warframe.

To cut to the chase: if you are garbage at the game, using a microphone doesn't make you good. No amount of telling people to use one will make them magically able to aim. 

Similarly, no amount of telling a community to better work together, or understand a Warframe will change the fact that the person controlling him can be a doonkey as/when they please.

The underlying issue is that there are things any player can do to be disruptive, regardless of Frame choice - some just Present fewer obstacles for them to be that way.

[(PSN)Fogwash]

13 minutes ago, FierceRadiance said:

Don't disagree with the OP. But heavens to Murgatroyd I wish players had to pass some kind of test of cooperation skills in order to wear a Limbo. Something not unlike a MR test might be suitable.

I know that sounds harsh, and maybe it is. But for me the bottom line is, this is a co-op game, and in addition to everything OP said, if misplayed or just played selfishly, Limbo also has the ability to completely derail co-op play. That makes him a real double-edged sword for the rest of us. That said, honesty requires me to admit to a bit of selfishness of my own here - I'm not interested in being part of some Limbo player's learning curve. I avoid playing with them for the time being.

(As always, IMHO, reasonable minds can differ.)

I agree, the guy who took the time to teach me in the game about Limbo went over the "ethics" of using this frame.  I adhere to them.  Not all will, but I can't help but think players past say level 5 just aren't that way.  The un serious having dropped out by then.

I will admit to behaving badly once.  just once.  A level 20 Mirage was slumming down in the lower planets with us and showing off, "look at me"  "watch me kill everything"  ruining the game for us peasants.  I unleashed Limbo.....and he had a chance to look at me.

My point being, any frame can "troll".

Agree completely about the ethics and every other Limbo frame I have met, yes....we talk.....agrees and we go out of our way to play nice.  Are there odd ducks out there who are bent on ruining things for everyone else?  Of course.  I can't help but think that players as they get more advanced in this game develop a respect for it and other players.  Please don't burst that bubble for me.  

I haven't met one person that wasn't pretty nice and helpful.  Well there was this one guy on mic berating us level 6s for "not being prepared" after a failed mission.   Frankly, he was right.  I quit trying to level up as fast as I could after that and started going back to learn properly.

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

Also for Lazy players, trolls, pugs who have no idea what they're doing...

It's a versatile frame. :P

[KX297]

I consider him to be pretty easy. Maybe that's just me.

I read his abilities and could quickly see some very unique ways to break the game.

Most notably, literal infinite Excavations on any Infestation map. 

Still overall don't enjoy the frame much. Though, the rework actually seemed to make it easier to be more effective with him. 

Now he has arguably the best CC in the game... and I pretty much only use it when I really want to cheese something pretty hard. 

Eh, he is a cool frame though. 

I will say he requires more thought than other Warframes, but he is really in no means difficult to master. Really, no Warframes are currently difficult to master.

Harrow looks like he might be a little more difficult in terms of game-play. Need to land head-shots, have to use ultimate at appropriate times due to cool down, have to use second ability cautiously, etc.

But, again, I doubt that he will be that hard to figure out and take full advantage of. 

I think my biggest issue with Limbo is that when I want to make the most out of my powers in the situation I am in, it can and often does negatively impact others. On the other hand, to keep myself from messing with others, I have to somewhat gimp myself. Makes a friggin wonderful solo frame though. 

But, if you enjoy him, more power to you!