[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

~snip~

kills your enjoyment when the team is doing well? that doesnt make any sense. if you want to kill enemies there are a few things you can do.

1. form your own squad through recruiting.

2. play higher difficulty.

3. play solo. (this is also an option they give people)

if the team or frame is killing effortlessly they dont need you. that isnt a problem with harrow. you are too focused on what happens to grunt enemies. fodder is fodder.

saying frames like ember destroys your fun because they are good at killing grunts doesn't say much (same goes for equinox who has to build a good charge and same goes for quakeshee especially on armor). once the lvl gets into the 40+ they stop being able to do that especially to the heavy units and especially against grineer. there is no such thing as kill stealing in this game. never has been and never will.

Edited July 20, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[Colyeses]

I -hate- the acquisition method. I've run Pago probably about thirty times now. Nothing.

And I'm going to have to do this with defection too? Drop chances for parts like this should be either much higher or in multiple rotations, not just C.

[Torrempesta]

8 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

kills your enjoyment when the team is doing well?

Tell me where I wrote this.

Tell me where I wrote this!

If my team is doing well when I am using Trinity I got no problem at all!
But I don't need to kill anything with Trinity in order to grant buffs to my team mates...

With Harrow I MUST kill for buffs and bonuses!

I really can't understand how you all can't grasp this simple concept...

A character, who is a support, who needs to kill stuff for giving buffs to other characters who need them FOR KILLING, is absolutely nonsense!
If I give buffs that allow far more powerful WFs an easier kill, what chances do I get as a support who bases all his output damages on weapons?!

"Oh look, this grineer is damn hard to kill... I really need a bonus for bringing him down..."
Banshee "Here, if you hit the stressed point you have a bonus multiplier x5! And I can permastun them on a huge area!"
Nova "Here, all enemies are slowed down and take damage x2!"
Frost "Here, all enemies in this area are frozen and their armor is reduced by 50% (on avarage)!"
Rhino "Here, all your damages have a bonus of +110%, because I am full power strength Rhino! And now the enemies are floating for 3 secs!"
Trinity "Here, I restored half of your power instantly, and now you take 75% less damages for 12 seconds!"
Volt "Here, I gave you full overshield and the enemies are stunned for 12 seconds!"
Loki "Here, the enemies won't focus you and are disarmed. Have fun!"
Nidus "Here, now that I have 100 stacks feel free to hit all these enemies I gathered in one place! And enjoy this regen!"
Oberon "Here, have +315 armor and 56 hp regen per second!"
Equinox "Here, enjoy a +X Power Strength and this blind on this huge area!"

Harrow "So, first of all stop hitting them, second let me gain my full shield potential... ok, now that I have it let me cast my two while you cover me so we have some lifesteal for some seconds and let me cast for 5 seconds my Thurible! BUT WAIT! Let me kill these grineer with a headshot so I can regen for all of us 30 power, but be sure to stay in this small area! Now, I will cast my ulti, don't kill anybody and don't draw them near you because I NEED them to hit me... OH GOOD! Now you have +60% crit chance for 10 secs, but only in this small area!"

Come on... 
Really, please... This makes no sense...

 

Edit, clarification: I know that when Harrow cast his ultimate ALL the team has the "absorb damages for crit chance"... but in a small area anyway!

Edited July 20, 2017 by Torrempesta

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Torrempesta said:

~snip~

you said "It is a problem if the lack of enemies to kill affect my enjoyment of the game!" lack of enemies means the DPS frames in your squad is doing what the frame is intended to do which means no one is being shot at and dying which means the team is doing well. by the way you are trying to make your point, it sounds like you want to do all the work and want all the praise for your effort and if so you can easily put it on solo and get that gratification. if im playing a DPS frame im going to play it to the fullest of its abilities. the concept you have not yet grasped is that harrow is not a traditional support frame. as bobtm has said some pages back he is the Vanguard, he is the first to engage and support his allies on the frontline by being aggressive. dont like it? use trinity.

Edited July 21, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[achromos]

20 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

 

Never said "You" specifically.  Although you seem to think Harrow needs to be a nuke frame apparently because your main complaint is 'kills'.  Just because Mesa (or any other frame) can do all that stuff does not make Harrow "Helpless"  

You don't need kills for Penance, you don't even need targets.  Using penance with base shields and an appropriate amount of duration gives you 20-30 seconds worth of: Increased Fire Rate/Attack speed and Increased reload speed.  Not to mention innate life-strike.  

You may wave that away and then scream on about banshee but who exactly can compete with a augmented-banshee except another highly dedicated DPS frame.  If your kills are disappearing that swiftly though, then it's probably early game.  You are talking about "Fairly high level missions" as if I don't do them?  Mot past 50+ minutes good enough for you?  Sortie 3's?  

A +50% crit bonus is enough to bring some weapons that have a hard enough time critting on decent builds (opticor) into at least reliable Orange crit range.  Speaking of the Opticor, remember Penance?  With at least putting 55% Power strength on him his reload and fire rate make the Opticor a beast without having to waste more then a single mod slot on a fire rate mod.  You talk about "Going to high" level missions, you talk about Mesa's 40k damage at 50 meters away, yet I'm doing 100k MINIMAL sometimes 400k with the Opticor on a decent crit.

You also talk about how hard it is to get kills, Harrow isn't a DPS frame though he can use weapons and sure the Opticor isn't a 'snap' and the enemy is dead (it almost is with Harrow) but I also use the Atterax with a Slash + Maiming strike build and I'm easily able to get as many kills as any EB-Excal or Peacemaker-Mesa.

This frame is incredibly powerful with the right equipment you just have to work with the tools you are given and not look at blatent up front toys that the other frames have.  If you think to yourself "I can't get my 120 second Penance because everyone is killing everyone and I cannot condem them" and stop there... then you aren't using every option you have.  There is a reason you can use penance without overshields.  Is it risky?  Yes, but... if everyone is killing everything then you shouldn't get shot/hit right?

Harrow is an assault frame.  His damage ALL of it comes from his weapons, if you aren't at least getting second place in the damage charts either you are in a group full of cheesers OR you are bringing sub-par weapons.  Damage isn't a Harrow problem, Harrow makes your weapons work better/faster, so bring better weapons and deal better damage.

 

P.S.
Oberon is fine.

 

P.P.S

Just tested in the Simulacrum.  A level 130 corrupted bombard got two-shot because of my +50% Crit Bonus being able to make my Opticor red-crit on him.  Did this several times, reliably.  Without Red-Critting it takes several more but I also bring a Adarza Kavat and her Crit bonus helps even more AND the fact that she can shred armor turns any shot I make with my Opticor into a one-shot with/without my own Crit bonus.

With that in mind, no...  Harrow isn't a DPS frame like Mesa.

 

[Torrempesta]

12 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

 it sounds like you want to do all the work and want all the praise for your effort and if so you can easily put it on solo and get that gratification

Again, why this problem doesn't occur with Trinity or Oberon or whatever?
Tell me, do you see me *@##$ing about these other frames?
 

 

12 hours ago, EinheriarJudith said:

the concept you have not yet grasped is that harrow is not a traditional support frame

I know. And that's not the problem. I already wrote that I understood he is a mor active one... BUT FOR THE 10TH TIME: how can you perform your support role if you don't have the raw material, ergo: enemies?
I really don't understand how YOU don't get this simple concept!

Basically you are saying that if you pick Harrow and you do nothing you must be happy because it means that the team doesn't need you, but this only happens with Harrow, and not other support WFs. And this would make sense in a real situation... BUT THIS IS A GAME! And if in a game a character is useless there is something wrong!

3 hours ago, achromos said:

a nuke frame apparently because your main complaint is 'kills'

My complaint is not the lack of kills because "gne gne gne I want to make tons of damages!", the problem is that HE NEEDS kills to buff allies!!
Goddammit! Why is it so difficult for you to understand! If I want to nuke things I pick the 6 Formas Mesa I build!
But if my team needs a support I for sure won't take Harrow! Trinity or Oberon FTW! Or even Rhino, as I wrote!

Damn even Hydroid is a better support with his 25 seconds stun!

3 hours ago, achromos said:

You don't need kills for Penance, you don't even need targets.  Using penance with base shields and an appropriate amount of duration gives you 20-30 seconds worth of: Increased Fire Rate/Attack speed and Increased reload speed.  Not to mention innate life-strike.  

Yeah, while I am exposed to enemies hits. And in this case Quick Thinking would be amazing! Too bad Harrow only has 300 Power with a normal Flow...

 

 

3 hours ago, achromos said:

With at least putting 55% Power strength on him his reload and fire rate make the Opticor a beast

Only one word: Volt.

You see? There is always a better choise! An easier way to turn things better without using Harrow!

3 hours ago, achromos said:

A level 130 corrupted bombard got two-shot because of my +50% Crit Bonus

Nice, a level 135 heavy gunner got melted by my Loki build.

Simulacrum is a good way to understand damages, but it's not a good example for understanding how a WFs works with other in a real mission.
In a common mission you have enemies coming out and spawning basically from everywhere; the time you spend aiming for a head just lets another enemy crawling to your back and melting you.

Again: this is Oberon all over again. People pointing out how horrible he is and other pretending to themselves that he is amazing, but the % of played Harrow is just damn low.
Until now I haven't seen a single Harrow in any Sortie. And a good bunch of days have passed since he came out...

Edited July 21, 2017 by Torrempesta

[EinheriarJudith]

7 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Basically you are saying that if you pick Harrow and you do nothing you must be happy because it means that the team doesn't need you, but this only happens with Harrow, and not other support WFs. And this would make sense in a real situation... BUT THIS IS A GAME! And if in a game a character is useless there is something wrong!

no. what i did say was if there are no enemies to kill the the team doesn't need you. this is most certainly apparent early on. they dont start needing you till their damage falls off. but even still if you are hanging out in the back you've already failed at playing harrow. no one ever complained to me about bring harrow to any mission and most of the time i am in 1st or 2nd in damage and kills why? because i get in the enemies face and i use appropriate weapons for the mission. did i see a complaint about being weak when using penance? if you did then all i can say is if you cant handle low hp use vitality and or make sure you use condemn before you use penance because if you dont you deserve to be downed. harrows play style is quite active and i find it exciting.

you seem to ignore that even if you use bless or renewal if the squad members arent even missing shield the ability has no effect and you are just wasting energy. you keep trying to compare support frames but oberon, trinity, and harrow all have different playstyles. its like comparing volts shield to snow globe or atlas rock wall.

Edited July 21, 2017 by EinheriarJudith

[DreamsmithJane]

7 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

how can you perform your support role if you don't have the raw material, ergo: enemies?

You do. If there are no enemies, it is because you failed to get on the front lines and find them before they died. When people say "Harrow is not a traditional support", this is what they mean. You can't stay behind the team and wait for enemies to come.

By the way, that's not what "ergo" means. Just saying.

8 hours ago, achromos said:

You don't need kills for Penance, you don't even need targets.  Using penance with base shields and an appropriate amount of duration gives you 20-30 seconds worth of: Increased Fire Rate/Attack speed and Increased reload speed.  Not to mention innate life-strike.

Bonus: the duration stacks on repeated casts. Bring a sentinel with Guardian (Taxon is great, of course) or a Raksa kubrow, and cast multiple times.

7 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Yeah, while I am exposed to enemies hits.

Are you really? While they're held in place with Condemn? While you can cast Covenant and be invulnerable until your shield recharges? "But Condemn wears off fast!" Then cast it again! Now you have shields! Save Covenant for when it's really needed.

7 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Only one word: Volt.

You see? There is always a better choise! An easier way to turn things better without using Harrow!

Volt! Great! Melee attack speed! For the...gun! But no fire rate, which makes him totally irrelevant for the purpose. Harrow fires Opticor faster than other frames, and can red crit, and kills from that Opticor provide health and energy for the team. That's the point. Volt is good, but the benefits he provides are totally different.

7 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

And if in a game a character is useless there is something wrong!

Then it's a good thing he's not useless, and all the people you're trying to tell that he's useless have been using him.

[SenorClipClop]

19 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Harrow "So, first of all stop hitting them, second let me gain my full shield potential... ok, now that I have it let me cast my two while you cover me so we have some lifesteal for some seconds and let me cast for 5 seconds my Thurible! BUT WAIT! Let me kill these grineer with a headshot so I can regen for all of us 30 power*, but be sure to stay in this small area! Now, I will cast my ulti, don't kill anybody and don't draw them near you because I NEED them to hit me... OH GOOD! Now you have +60% crit chance** for 10 secs***, but only in this small area****!"

*30 Energy/4 means you charged Thurible for 7.5 Energy. Thurible does not take 5 seconds to charge up to 7.5 Energy, not even close.

**An extra 60% crit chance (I assume on headshots, +60% on bodyshots is past the cap) means that the squad took less than 400 damage in the 6-12 seconds of Covenant's first phase. If that's all the damage the enemy could do to you all, those are some weak enemies, but nevertheless +60% flat Crit chance is enough to make a non-Crit weapon a reliable Crit weapon for a short time (and make the Nukor as scary as f*ck).

***The retaliation phase is 12s at base, so unless you're modding for negative Duration (which is the exact opposite of what you should be doing), I'm not sure where you got that the Crit buff was 10s.

**** All of Covenant's effects apply to allies within the 50m-radius Affinity range. Is this considered a small area?

 

Plus, You're doing his setup all out of order.

• Before engaging the enemy, charge Thurible. An Energy pizza is good here, or you can whack the crates in the starting room for some extra energy. If you wish, leave yourself at least 25 energy.
• Grab a clean headshot, or (if you saved that 25E) toss a Condemn before shooting. It buffs your shields and all-but-guarantees you a free headshot.
• Now you're rolling. Find those headshots, gain tons of shield and energy. When you have a second (like after a good Condemn) cast Penance to lay the smackdown.
• Covenant is best used in reaction to seeing your team taking damage. Pop 4 to swiftly turn that fight. Covenant's invincibility duration provides Harrow enough time to cast 2 and 3 if they aren't already up, and even throw out a Condemn or two if desired, before the crit buff starts.
  • If you did all this, you now have a massive damage buff, can dish out bullets really fast for even more damage, heal the team, and you probably don't have many enemies shooting back at you.
• If you pop 4 reactively to taking damage, don't CC enemies with Condemn right away. It's a safety reflex, but you're already safe.
• During the 4's second phase, it's best if the only other skill you cast is Condemn.

9 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

the problem is that HE NEEDS kills to buff allies!!

Lastly, I'd like to show you something. Some Tenno are up-in-arms about Harrow on the misconception that he needs to contend with DPS frames. But these players are overestimating just how violent Harrow needs to be to get his job done.

This is a summary of yesterday's Sortie 2 (I thought I had a picture of the day's Sortie 3, but I can do another if you like). I completed it as Harrow, primarily using the Stradavar. I have a decent Riven for it, but the Strad isn't exactly a meta weapon.

Spoiler

Note that I am tied for the fewest kills. In total, I got about 10% of the kills and dealt the least damage out of my whole team. However, I was at full or near-full Energy for the entire mission, and my team (no Trins, btw) never ran out of the stuff. My point? Harrow does not need to compete for kills to be effective. He just has to participate, even a little bit. The important thing to note, though, is the Headshot kill count. It makes a difference. Assuming I charged Thurible at an average of 10, and let's say just two thirds of my headshot kills were with Thurible active, my headshots alone restored almost 1500 Energy over the fairly short mission, enough to 1-100 Harrow's energy pool 5 times. And that's a lowball estimate of just the headshot kills. All while contributing just ~10% of damage and kills. 2-3 headshot kills per minute makes you a reliable source of Energy.

Harrow does not need to compete as a damage frame in order to be a good support, he just has to involve himself a little bit. (Which is what any support would be doing anyway, unless for some reason a Trinity thinks it prudent to kill nothing in the mission for some reason.)

Edited July 21, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[Chipputer]

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

You do. If there are no enemies, it is because you failed to get on the front lines and find them before they died.

Every Harrow player I've seen, "getting in the front lines," has done nothing more than walk completely out of Thurible range in order to get kills so that they can support the team. His range is needlessly restrictive in any actual mission. Telling me that he's great for coordinated groups doesn't change the fact that you're not always going to be in a coordinated group and definitely doesn't change the fact that bunching up into his little bubble of support isn't always the best, tactical, idea. He needs more range.

I've said it before and I will keep saying it: Any support frame that requires me to back off so that they can have a bit of the kills to themselves so that they can then support me so that I can kill but have to back off, again, so they can kill isn't doing its job properly. The frames that need Harrow's support kill too fast for Harrow to support them. This myth that killframes stop being effective early in scaling (level 40? Holy crap, terrible builds prevail if level 40 is as high as you can take an Ember before she starts falling off) is something that I'm seeing perpetuated to support Harrow but it's simply not true.

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

all the people you're trying to tell that he's useless have been using him.

This is a needlessly cheeky point to make. No, he's not useless, but just because you're using him doesn't suddenly mean that he's not underperforming.

I was a heavy advocate for Oberon not being as bad as people said he was back before he got buffed. Me using him effectively didn't suddenly mean that he wasn't ineffective, overall.

The only thing Harrow has going for him is that he's a better design than Trinity. I'd rather have an ineffective Thurible than a boring Trinity any day.

[Chipputer]

6 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I was at full or near-full Energy for the entire mission, and my team (no Trins, btw) never ran out of the stuff.

Lack of actual substance to your context-- what frames? Were they running Zenurik? How often were they actually using abilities?

This is like me walking in and saying, "Equinox's healing is fine. I was lowest kills and damage but my team never died-- their health was near full the whole mission!" Then it turns out an Oberon was on the team.

[SenorClipClop]

15 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Lack of actual substance to your context-- what frames? Were they running Zenurik? How often were they actually using abilities?

This is like me walking in and saying, "Equinox's healing is fine. I was lowest kills and damage but my team never died-- their health was near full the whole mission!" Then it turns out an Oberon was on the team.

It's true, I can't prove the finer points of my example. I can't show you their energy levels throughout the mission, which Focus they used (if any), how often they cast abilities, their Efficiency setups, or what loadouts they were specifically using unless I took some exhaustive screenshots or just recorded a whole mission on video, and also conducted a detailed interview of that whole squad. I'm not that dedicated to proving my point (far too much effort), I'm just trying to use this as a rough example for it. Harrow doesn't even need to kill 1/4 of enemies to be effective, and beyond what I have in this screenshot you'll have to just take my word for it. Furthermore, I wouldn't try to claim that my squad was relying 100% on Thurible for all their Energy, just that Thurible is an effective energy regen tool in your average, everyday Warframe gameplay. I could make a slideshow of today's Sortie 3 if you really really want, though I don't have the software to make a video of the mission.

Also, this very much unlike your Equinox example, since Mend stacks on total squad damage, not Equinox's damage. Plus we start with full health, it's possible to take no health damage, and only Inaros and Nekros spend it as a resource. Comparing healing vs. energy gain is tenuous at best.

Edited July 21, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[DreamsmithJane]

7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Every Harrow player I've seen, "getting in the front lines," has done nothing more than walk completely out of Thurible range in order to get kills so that they can support the team. His range is needlessly restrictive in any actual mission. Telling me that he's great for coordinated groups doesn't change the fact that you're not always going to be in a coordinated group and definitely doesn't change the fact that bunching up into his little bubble of support isn't always the best, tactical, idea. He needs more range.

It's not my fault the people you've played with don't build range and can't use a bow or sniper rifle. Thurible has the same range as Banshee's Silence and Sound Quake, and nobody ever said the range on those was too short. When teammates are slaughtering enemies with their powers, I'm standing right next to those enemies (not in front of them, FFS, will people stop blocking each other's line of sight?), and guess what: Thurible outranges them! Surprise! So I aim past them at more distant enemies, and rack up headshots while making sure the biggest threats never get close. Staying within 30m of my team is not hard.

7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

I've said it before and I will keep saying it: Any support frame that requires me to back off so that they can have a bit of the kills to themselves so that they can then support me so that I can kill but have to back off, again, so they can kill isn't doing its job properly.

I've said it before and I will keep saying it: Harrow does not need you to back off. He needs his players to aim and not sit around. That is all.

7 hours ago, Chipputer said:

This is a needlessly cheeky point to make. No, he's not useless, but just because you're using him doesn't suddenly mean that he's not underperforming.

There's nothing needless about it. Calling him "useless" is a straight up lie, and we can't have a debate or come to a reasonable consensus if some people are willing to distort or deny facts to get their way. And if Harrow were underperforming, then it wouldn't take a fresh forma, a quirky experimental loadout, and the presence of three overmodded damage frames who are obsessed with stepping directly in front of me no matter how hard I try to give them clear shots at the enemy, to prevent me from getting over 40% of team damage on a regular basis. Did I mention Harrow has stupidly high fire rate and reload speed, and can put most guns to incredibly effective use? The fact that other people can't or won't use him for their own reasons doesn't suddenly mean he's useless.

[Gurpgork]

17 hours ago, Torrempesta said:

Basically you are saying that if you pick Harrow and you do nothing you must be happy because it means that the team doesn't need you, but this only happens with Harrow, and not other support WFs. And this would make sense in a real situation... BUT THIS IS A GAME! And if in a game a character is useless there is something wrong!

Well, the thing is, it does happen with other support Warframes. If a squad is blowing every enemy off the map and taking the top 10 floors of the building with them, then, yes, they don't need Harrow, but they don't exactly need Oberon or Trinity, either. Those supports are just as superfluous as Harrow would be in that situation. You don't need Renewal's heal or armor buff if enemies are dead before they can touch you, nor do you need mass rad procs or status immunity or especially not Trinity's mighty 75% DR. The difference is that it's a lot more noticeable with Harrow than it is with Trinity or Oberon by virtue of his mechanics. 

[PsiWarp]

So yeah, whatever happened with the thurible being able to damage and/or stagger enemies while Harrow is casting his abilities? I would love to just run around channeling Thurible and smacking enemies out of the way :)

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Harrow is a great frame. He will be seen more and more soon once people realize how to mod him and use him correctly.

[Newnight]

2 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Harrow is a great frame. He will be seen more and more soon once people realize how to mod him and use him correctly.

People do know how to mod him and play him, doesn't make that a good way to play him.

[LSG501]

On 22/07/2017 at 5:52 AM, PsiWarp said:

So yeah, whatever happened with the thurible being able to damage and/or stagger enemies while Harrow is casting his abilities? I would love to just run around channeling Thurible and smacking enemies out of the way :)

I'm guessing it will be an augment mod.... it's an 'easy' augment solution, along with one where we can share our overshields etc.

On 22/07/2017 at 4:08 AM, DreamsmithJane said:

It's not my fault the people you've played with don't build range and can't use a bow or sniper rifle. Thurible has the same range as Banshee's Silence and Sound Quake, and nobody ever said the range on those was too short. When teammates are slaughtering enemies with their powers, I'm standing right next to those enemies (not in front of them, FFS, will people stop blocking each other's line of sight?), and guess what: Thurible outranges them! Surprise! So I aim past them at more distant enemies, and rack up headshots while making sure the biggest threats never get close. Staying within 30m of my team is not hard.

And for those of us who have added in range (like me) to their builds but still can't get energy to their team because of a large range ember, equinox or resonating quake (which is considerably bigger than thurible), let alone a spore build saryn.... hell my reckoning build oberon can kill stuff quicker than harrow can on defence....  While you say target distant enemies and I agree with that but the problem is that this isn't always possible due to the fact most maps are in enclosed environments....

It isn't just a case of bad harrow users either, there's also the fact that on the starmap at least most 'offensive' frames are able to kill anything instantly with their abilities versus harrow needing to use weapons.   I've actually tried to outrun embers and well it's just not possible because they're usually running at full speed themselves (and harrow's not exactly fast) because they haven't got to do any killing with weapons... it's literally run from point a to point b with wof active. 

Now my opinion is the problem isn't really with harrow because in a team without say an ember and wof he's actually quite effective (although I still feel 4 could do with a buff to the base time), but stick him in a team that has a 'press 4 to win' frame, like ember, and play on the starmap you might as well not be there.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

And for those of us who have added in range (like me) to their builds but still can't get energy to their team because of a large range ember, equinox or resonating quake (which is considerably bigger than thurible), let alone a spore build saryn.... hell my reckoning build oberon can kill stuff quicker than harrow can on defence....  While you say target distant enemies and I agree with that but the problem is that this isn't always possible due to the fact most maps are in enclosed environments....

I understand that, but most "kill" powers have a shorter base range than Thurible. In addition, enemies don't have to be inside Thurible's range when you kill them (which I assume you know, just saying), so you are "tethered" to an area larger than the one in which enemies are dying. Short corridors with lots of turns do pose a problem, and this requires you to familiarize yourself with tilesets in order to anticipate where the team will need to move. I also use a kavat with the Sense Danger mod to seek out new enemies.

Resonating Quake Banshee...is a problem. You often have to leave Thurible's range and then turn a corner or two just to find an enemy. I don't have a fix for that, except remove Sound Quake already, DE! Honestly, it just makes missions pass slower even for people who find them boring enough to cheese. Silence makes it redundant, and no self-respecting Banshee will use it. /endrant

1 hour ago, LSG501 said:

I've actually tried to outrun embers and well it's just not possible because they're usually running at full speed themselves (and harrow's not exactly fast) because they haven't got to do any killing with weapons... it's literally run from point a to point b with wof active.

This is where your parkour skills come in, along with the Mobilize or Firewalker mod (if needed). You won't outrun Ember if you stay on the ground, because her sprint speed is higher. Remember that you can move freely while channeling Thurible, Condemn is one-handed, and you can cast Penance and Covenant in the air.

To be honest, though, if you're having trouble getting out of Ember's WoF range, it's probably because you're in a run & gun mission type where the team is only moving in one direction, like capture or exterminate. Harrow is not exactly well suited to those missions, anyway, but you can make it work.

[LSG501]

19 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

This is where your parkour skills come in, along with the Mobilize or Firewalker mod (if needed). You won't outrun Ember if you stay on the ground, because her sprint speed is higher.

The problem is everything harrow can do to get away, ember (I'll use ember as it's my most frequent annoyance but there are others) can do too because wof is a mobile ability.  So even if I bullet jump everywhere the ember user will be doing the exact same thing to get to the finish as fast as possible got a possible solution to this though... make it so embers can only walk, (like nyx assimilate augment or ivara in stealth) rather than run/bullet jump.. ember users keep there press 4 to win ability, others can get away from it  :)

Actually thinking about it, maybe harrow was designed with PoE in mind rather than the starmap, it's going to be a bigger more open map so maybe shooting things in the distance will be an option..... having said that the first thing I'll drop on my build if a decent augment comes out will be my range mod....

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by LSG501

[Ventura_Highway]

On 7/21/2017 at 0:53 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

Volt! Great! Melee attack speed! For the...gun! But no fire rate, which makes him totally irrelevant for the purpose.

He actually does buff reload. Sorry if a similar reply is already here.

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, Ventura_Highway said:

He actually does buff reload. Sorry if a similar reply is already here.

The issue is fire rate. The reason Harrow is so good with Opticor is that he reduces the charge time to under a second (with Speed Trigger or Vile Acceleration). Volt buffs sprint speed, melee attack speed, reload speed, even critical damage and electricity damage, but not fire rate. The fire rate buff is something only Harrow can do that greatly increases the usability of weapons with long charge times.

[Ventura_Highway]

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

The issue is fire rate. The reason Harrow is so good with Opticor is that he reduces the charge time to under a second (with Speed Trigger or Vile Acceleration). Volt buffs sprint speed, melee attack speed, reload speed, even critical damage and electricity damage, but not fire rate. The fire rate buff is something only Harrow can do that greatly increases the usability of weapons with long charge times.

Ah, my apologies for not reading more thoroughly. 

[Netoberg]

My ideas about harrow:

Sinergize his abilities...

If you press 3, summing starts, but if you press 4 in the middle of the summoning process, all your mana is catchup and you finish the process right away (with no penaulties ofc, gives a bit more use for harrow instead of making him useless for 20 seconds) and while allies are invulnerable make his 3rd works for allies too. 

Range effects on him should increment his 1st to make a bit higher arc wide instead of making just a lot longer, something like inaros 1st would be much better...

That would be a decent frame imo

Best regards

[(PSN)psycofang]

Ive played him on pc and now played and formad him on ps4 and Ive no clue what problems people are having with Harrow.

 

Hes pretty damn powerful in a group setting, had a fissure on MOT and got grouped up with nuky nuker all the missiles death squad EX and still did 24% of the damage. 

 

Went for quite awhile too and didnt die or ever feel in danger, he synergizes well with his own kit by keeping track of basic items.

His 1 and 2 feed into each other CC + artificial damage increases + perma life strike for the group meaning 1 less mod for survival.

 

His 3 works wonders underneath his 4 when his 2 is still at 40+ seconds. Pop 4, cast 3 in the chaos and end it a tad before his invul ends. Now start mashing 1 and cutting everything down.

 

You can mash 1 then pop 4 then hit yourself with your smokey noodle and mash 1 a bit more before invul ends and get huge shields back, CC and free kills.

 

He doesnt NEED head shot kills to give free energy but head shot kills are greatly rewarded. 11 energy a kill in rapid succession adds up and the buff lasts 60+ seconds. 

 

Viral/slash crit pandero or nukor are crazy good in fact almost any decent weapon becomes amazing in his hands (except the rocket launcher).

 

Red crits galore, hes orange/red crit jesus for the squad, his 4 saves the squad as well its crazy.

 

He is not a back line support, his kit allows you to play flat out fast and  suicidal and benefit from it.  Ive never felt i was "competing" for kills more than i do anyway on any other frame.