+Critical Chance on Slide needs to be removed or changed

[Magneu]

It's been the "everyone knows, but people complain when it's mentioned" topic for a while, but melee rivens have put this conditional buff into the forefront yet again.

It started with Maiming Strike, and is largely at fault for making the Telos Boltace slide-spam such a meta for a long time. However, a less visually obnoxious, but far more effective strategy has been there for the same time. Yes, I'm talking about whips.

The Atterax/Maiming Strike/Blood Rush combo is probably one of the strongest in the game. I've seen it and Naramon be used to cheese five hour survivals by players abusing macros and wedging themselves behind a door. Even without Naramon, it's overpowered and abusive as hell. I just got off an Axi fissure where a Valkyr was using a Secura Lecta (riven/mods unknown) to OHKO level 70-80 heavies every time they spun, which they did constantly for forty minutes straight. Every now and then they attempted to sneak off to a corner of the map and wedge themselves (enemy AI would still attempt to run at them but be unable to fire due to lack of LoS, then die to a whip that hit through walls), but simply standing next next to them would make them leave. Through the attack speed buff of Warcry and most likely Primed Fury/Berserker, as well as the insane range of whips with Primed Reach/rivens, enemies at most got a glimpse of the player before instantly dying, having no chance to actually attack the player. Based on scaling, I would guess it would be around level 100 before enemies survived more than three swings, which occurred in about a second and a half; and this wasn't even an Atterax.

This strategy is partially due to Blood Rush taking into account the +90% bonus of Maiming Strike, plus whatever riven crit buff the weapon has. To those who don't know, Blood Rush multiplies the after-mods crit chance of your weapon by 165%per level of your current combo counter. Assuming a 2x combo counter (easily achievable) and no riven, an Atterax has 495% chance to crit. An orange crit (100% to 199%) on an Atterax with Organ Shatter deals 10.4x damage. a red crit (200% to 299%) on the same Atterax deals 15.1x damage, and so on (the formula is on the wiki). This doesn't take into account True Steel, Condition Overload, or rivens that boost crit chance/damage/crit chance on slide. It's pretty easy to see how quickly this combo spirals out of any semblance of balance within the parameters of normal play, or even anything under level 150. Throw in slash procs/stealth/damage buffs, and gets worse.

The Atterax spin2win meta needs to go. It's obnoxious to every other player in the squad (nothing like slide-attack noises twice a second for an hour straight), disrupting to gameplay (when everything up to triple digits dies in one hit, what's the point in even playing aside from actively avoiding that player?), and is an example of abusive cheese used to bypass any sort of difficulty. Slide attacks are helpful tools that can be used effectively, but when players turn into Beyblades every time they see an enemy, it just makes the game feel like a joke.

TL:DR; Atterax/Maiming Strike/Blood rush is OP as hell. Maiming Strike/crit chance on slide attacks are the main culprits, and need to be nerfed/removed /excluded from Blood Rush calculations.

Eagerly awaiting the ad hominem/strawman.

EDIT: Fixed Blood Rush calculations. Thanks @motorfirebox

EDIT 2: Seriously considering asking DE what they think about +crit chance on slide if they have a Q&A at their stage at Tennocon. The reaction of certain players in attendance would probably warrant the time I'll spend traveling alone. Also, strawman and ad hominem aren't valid forms of arguments/criticism. If you can't bring a good point for debate to the table, please don't post about how I just hate everything fun and get mad when people kill more enemies than me. Actually, do; it'll make my side look better!

Edited July 6, 2017 by Magneu

[Horonelius]

10 minutes ago, Magneu said:

players turn into Beyblades

Have you SEEN the bugs with dual wielding lately? The only thing you CAN do is spin when using only the glaive.

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

I see that this has became an issue since melee rivens came out. 

[shut]

Amen.

It's always baffled me that Maiming Strike's bonus is multiplied by Blood Rush. Thanks to this interaction, a weapon with 0% crit can easily reach a >500% crit chance at 3.0x combo. This interaction gives balance-shatteringly stupid amounts of power and has absolutely no place in this game. And I'm saying this as a filthy Atterax spammer.

 

I think a good way to fix this, while making MaimStrike more interesting, would to be to:
- let Maiming Strike add its flat bonus after Blood Rush is accounted for.
- let Maiming Strike affect all "maneuver" melee attacks (slides, directional melee, ground slams) to add a bit of variety.

Edited July 5, 2017 by SortaRandom

[PoisonHD]

Eh, it's fine until scaling is fixed >.>

[motorfirebox]

Math isn't quite correct. BR doesn't multiply crit rate by combo counter, it multiplies it by 165% per counter level at max level (165 at 1.5x, 330 at 2x, etc). So at 2x counter and an Atterax with Maiming Strike, it would be (.25+.9)*(1+1.65*2) = 4.945, or 494.5% crit chance. Unless I mathed wrong.

[Ragingwasabi]

27 minutes ago, Magneu said:

It's been the "everyone knows, but people complain when it's mentioned" topic for a while, but melee rivens have put this conditional buff into the forefront yet again.

It started with Maiming Strike, and is largely at fault for making the Telos Boltace slide-spam such a meta for a long time. However, a less visually obnoxious, but far more effective strategy has been there for the same time. Yes, I'm talking about whips.

The Atterax/Maiming Strike/Blood Rush combo is probably one of the strongest in the game. I've seen it and Naramon be used to cheese five hour survivals by players abusing macros and wedging themselves behind a door. Even without Naramon, it's overpowered and abusive as hell. I just got off an Axi fissure where a Valkyr was using a Secura Lecta (riven/mods unknown) to OHKO level 70-80 heavies every time they spun, which they did constantly for forty minutes straight. Every now and then they attempted to sneak off to a corner of the map and wedge themselves (enemy AI would still attempt to run at them but be unable to fire due to lack of LoS, then die to a whip that hit through walls), but simply standing next next to them would make them leave. Through the attack speed buff of Warcry and most likely Primed Fury/Berserker, as well as the insane range of whips with Primed Reach/rivens, enemies at most got a glimpse of the player before instantly dying, having no chance to actually attack the player. Based on scaling, I would guess it would be around level 100 before enemies survived more than three swings, which occurred in about a second and a half; and this wasn't even an Atterax.

This strategy is partially due to Blood Rush taking into account the +90% bonus of Maiming Strike, plus whatever riven crit buff the weapon has. To those who don't know, Blood Rush multiplies the after-mods crit chance of your weapon by your current combo counter. Assuming a 2x combo counter (easily achievable) and no riven, an Atterax has 115%x2=230% chance to crit. An orange crit (100% to 199%) on an Atterax with Organ Shatter deals 10.4x damage. a red crit (200% to 299%) on the same Atterax deals 15.1x damage, and so on (the formula is on the wiki). This doesn't take into account True Steel, Condition Overload, or rivens that boost crit chance/damage/crit chance on slide. It's pretty easy to see how quickly this combo spirals out of any semblance of balance within the parameters of normal play, or even anything under level 150. Throw in slash procs/stealth/damage buffs, and gets worse.

The Atterax spin2win meta needs to go. It's obnoxious to every other player in the squad (nothing like slide-attack noises twice a second for an hour straight), disrupting to gameplay (when everything up to triple digits dies in one hit, what's the point in even playing aside from actively avoiding that player?), and is an example of abusive cheese used to bypass any sort of difficulty. Slide attacks are helpful tools that can be used effectively, but when players turn into Beyblades every time they see an enemy, it just makes the game feel like a joke.

TL:DR; Atterax/Maiming Strike/Blood rush is OP as hell. Maiming Strike/crit chance on slide attacks are the main culprits, and need to be nerfed/removed /excluded from Blood Rush calculations.

Eagerly awaiting the ad hominem/strawman.

Warframe became a joke when maiming strike was released. now we have melee rivens too! gg

[flameblastguardian]

I don't mind that even though i exclusively abusing maiming strike. 

[_Azeizel]

41 minutes ago, Horonelius said:

Have you SEEN the bugs with dual wielding lately? The only thing you CAN do is spin when using only the glaive.

What bugs?

[Buzkyl]

2 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

Eh, it's fine until scaling is fixed >.>

That's no excuse to introduce broken mechanics, you don't fix something by breaking it even further.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Buzkyl
typos

[Magneu]

46 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

Eh, it's fine until scaling is fixed >.>

That's a deflection. There are so many other, more interactive ways to defeat high-level (100+) enemies than mindlessly mashing certain keys/spamming a macro.

[Magneu]

45 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Math isn't quite correct. BR doesn't multiply crit rate by combo counter, it multiplies it by 165% per counter level at max level (165 at 1.5x, 330 at 2x, etc). So at 2x counter and an Atterax with Maiming Strike, it would be (.25+.9)*(1+1.65*2) = 4.945, or 494.5% crit chance. Unless I mathed wrong.

Thanks for the correction. Good to know it's more broken than I thought.

495% chance means what, a 95% chance of (assuming 5.7x multiplier) 5x(5.7-1)+1=24.5x damage not counting stealth/damage buffs? Only off a 2x combo counter?

How can anyone defend this as balanced?

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, Horonelius said:

Have you SEEN the bugs with dual wielding lately? The only thing you CAN do is spin when using only the glaive.

Completely irrelevant. 

[atom]

make a private lobby if you want to play it your way. don't ruin it for everyone else.

warframe is not some strategic game with few mobs, it's a horde game stuff like this is needed.

to me it feels badass ninja darting in and out of groups of enemies mowing them down and seeing red crits. it takes a bit of skill and there's risk involved (compared to using a ranged primary).

1hk level 80 mobs is normal taking into account melee scales. some players will always find ways to abuse the game and try to afk farm. in my experience this almost never happens and i pub most of my games. no need to nerf something the overwhelming majority of the playerbase enjoys.

this power is not free and comes at a high cost. i'm thinking this was added to rivens in order to give a bit more power to players who don't have access to maiming strike.

fact is your making it sound everyone is abusing atterax slide spam and this is certainly not the case so please stop trying to ruin the game.

[Robolaser]

Yeah, it's fine. Nobody cares about balance, its a PVE game. Who doesn't like spin2win? Go play something else if you don't.

Even better, i want an instanuking mapwide aoe weapon of mass destruction for sentinel. It'll give me plenty of time to enjoy the attention in squad chat while picking my nose. Make sure it doesn't cost more than 10 alloys to build though. I'm lazy. Oh and make it do a lot of annoying sounds, that's always funny.

Thanks.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Robolaser

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 hour ago, Ragingwasabi said:

Warframe became a joke when maiming strike was released. now we have melee rivens too! gg

I literally laughed out loud. 

[(PSN)DBR87]

Honestly, even without Maiming Strike, Atterax could do that same amount of damage. It would take what, like one or two minutes longer to get up to "every hit is a red crit" but Atterax can still get to 200% crit chance without Maiming Strike.

As much as I love melee and don't want to see it nerfed....it is really powerful right now. We really didn't need melee rivens and I feel the only reason we got them is because everything else had Rivens.

Look, I am not gonna disagree that melee probably needs to be toned down. (Well, definitely. Again, I love melee and hate admitting this.) I hope whatever they do doesn't smack melee back to u17 days where melee was trash.

Allowing Maiming Strike to take effect after Blood Rush would be good but to my understanding Maiming gives a FLAT bonus to crit. Would guess it would be difficult to program a flat bonus after multipliers.

But if we are all being honest, melee + crit/status + Naramon is really powerful and about the ONLY thing that keeps it in checks is high level Eximus Auras stack on top of each other. I once spent 5 hours in a void survival just to see how far the combo would take me and the only reason I died because Leech auras took my energy, was moving slow because of Ice auras, toxin aura hurting me, fire auras knocking me down. Was literally being one shotted by auras and my Warframe was moving at 5 FPS.

And they still made Melee Rivens... LoL

[Magneu]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

Honestly, even without Maiming Strike, Atterax could do that same amount of damage. It would take what, like one or two minutes longer to get up to "every hit is a red crit" but Atterax can still get to 200% crit chance without Maiming Strike.

I don't believe that's true. Assuming no True Steel, the base 25% crit chance of the Atterax equal a 272.% crit chance at a 6x multiplier. Maiming Strike puts you at 347.% crit chance at 1.5x on a slide attack. Oh, sorry, that's at 100% crit chance. Maiming Atterax has 115% base, so imagine a bit higher. Not to mention that slide attacks on the Atterax does twice as much damage as a slide. To drive that home, at the same 6x multiplier, your crit chance with 100% base chance (lower than actual, in-game crits)is 1090%, which is magnitudes higher than a paltry 272.5% crit chance.

If you think it takes one to two minutes longer to get to the same damage level of a Maiming Atterax, pass me whatever you're smoking.

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

make a private lobby if you want to play it your way. don't ruin it for everyone else.

warframe is not some strategic game with few mobs, it's a horde game stuff like this is needed.

to me it feels badass ninja darting in and out of groups of enemies mowing them down and seeing red crits. it takes a bit of skill and there's risk involved (compared to using a ranged primary).

1hk level 80 mobs is normal taking into account melee scales. some players will always find ways to abuse the game and try to afk farm. in my experience this almost never happens and i pub most of my games. no need to nerf something the overwhelming majority of the playerbase enjoys.

this power is not free and comes at a high cost. i'm thinking this was added to rivens in order to give a bit more power to players who don't have access to maiming strike.

fact is your making it sound everyone is abusing atterax slide spam and this is certainly not the case so please stop trying to ruin the game.

"Play privately, if you're tired of people abusing a mechanic that outscales practically everything else in-game, to the point of making public games (the lifeblood of an online game) unenjoyable".

Yes, it's a horde game, but that doesn't mean 360 degree OHKO with no skill involved should be so commonplace. It makes the entire game feel cheap.

If a "badass ninja" spins like a Beyblade that ingested 2kg of cocaine and chugged a Rockstar for twently minutes straight, sure.

OHKO level 80 mobs is normal...when accounting for buffs, combos with multipliers, building a combo counter, and good weapons. Not spinning non-stop. And yes, power-gamers will always try to find the most "effective" tactic; so why do we allow it to exist? Also, claiming the "overwhelming majority" of the playerbase enjoys it is a an appeal to the masses fallacy. Ergo, invalid.

"This power is not free and comes at a high cost." ...what? Maiming Strike (and rivens) are at a high cost precisely because that power. That is also irrelevant, the complaint I'm making is about the entire +crit chance on slide mechanic itself.

And yes, I consider any use of Maiming Strike and the Atterax to be abuse, as it is orders stronger than any other melee option, not to mention any weapon option. Is it present in game, so you can use it? Yes. Should it be in the game? In my opinion, no.

[Buzkyl]

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

make a private lobby if you want to play it your way. don't ruin it for everyone else.

Except that your "fun" can actively ruin the way other play the game and creates an unhealthy step in the game's progression. Just because it's fun for you doesn't make it necessarily a good thing.

See Limbo stasis

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

warframe is not some strategic game with few mobs, it's a horde game stuff like this is needed.

 Hoard mode games still have semblance of balance, every game genre has. Just because it's a hoard mode game does not mean scaling and balancing should be thrown out the window

 

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

to me it feels badass ninja darting in and out of groups of enemies mowing them down and seeing red crits. it takes a bit of skill and there's risk involved (compared to using a ranged primary).

lol, where do i begin.

• It takes less skill as you're spamming only one attack repeatedly
• You're hardly darting in an out, at best you're just slidig toward's groups and wiping them out than actual melee play which would use combo, blocking ect.
• With Naramon focus focus, the "risk" is removed entirely.
• Arguably, range combat takes more skill as range combat require general aiming of weaponry compared to sliding around like top.

 

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

1hk level 80 mobs is normal taking into account melee scales. some players will always find ways to abuse the game and try to afk farm. in my experience this almost never happens and i pub most of my games. no need to nerf something the overwhelming majority of the playerbase enjoys.

And it's the Dev job to fix abuse of game mechanics. The notion of "players wil always find exploits" is extremely shallow, it's a cycle however it's one that exist ofr a reason, through such reasoning why even bother fix bugs if new ones are gonna pop up anyway?

Just because people enjoy it does not mean it's okay. Players will never turn down being more powerful.

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

this power is not free and comes at a high cost. i'm thinking this was added to rivens in order to give a bit more power to players who don't have access to maiming strike.

Except it stacks with maiming Strike, so the notion of it being an alternative is faulty, it's more power creep.

1 hour ago, ..atom.. said:

 

fact is your making it sound everyone is abusing atterax slide spam and this is certainly not the case so please stop trying to ruin the game.

The problem still exist whether 1 or 1000 people are experiencing it.

[Nezha_Rose]

Anyone who disagrees with OP are wasting their time. 

My suggestion to you is all is to sell Maiming Strike before they nerf it to the ground because of posts like this that do indeed functions to display a serious problem in the game mechanics.

And if you dont sell Maiming Strike on time, see your expensive and highly rare to obtain mod be dragged down to the rubbish bin and get one forma as an "apology", and marvel as the prices drop lower than baros rarest mods.

Then return to your Gallatine Prime and other high crit melees and still mow down mobs anyways because thats the way you wanna play the game you pay for.

And if you discover another cheese strat, dont go on pubs, and if you have to, dont let them see you excecuting it either since you would continue to expand the ever so infinite chains of broken mechanics to the public eye and therefore diminishing the life spam of the strategy or excecution of said patterns of actions that one could only simply lable as "cheese".

As for Naramon, max out only the level 2 shadow step, not the 3rd one and hold on to the extra focus affinity for when the time arrives, you have additional affinity to cover the changes and reajust. Afterwards buy arcanes that could enable you to hide with finishers making Inaros and Ash broken, and again, do not display this to anyone on social medias, pubs or family members as that will too, shed light into more broken mechanics hidden in the compilation of interactive codes that is Warframe.

Best of luck tenno. And may you continue to speed run the missions in order to comeback the rng in secrecy due to public shaming and dissapointments, and conspiracies. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Nezha_Rose

[atom]

1 hour ago, Magneu said:

"Play privately, if you're tired of people abusing a mechanic that outscales practically everything else in-game, to the point of making public games (the lifeblood of an online game) unenjoyable".

Yes, it's a horde game, but that doesn't mean 360 degree OHKO with no skill involved should be so commonplace. It makes the entire game feel cheap.

If a "badass ninja" spins like a Beyblade that ingested 2kg of cocaine and chugged a Rockstar for twently minutes straight, sure.

OHKO level 80 mobs is normal...when accounting for buffs, combos with multipliers, building a combo counter, and good weapons. Not spinning non-stop. And yes, power-gamers will always try to find the most "effective" tactic; so why do we allow it to exist? Also, claiming the "overwhelming majority" of the playerbase enjoys it is a an appeal to the masses fallacy. Ergo, invalid.

"This power is not free and comes at a high cost." ...what? Maiming Strike (and rivens) are at a high cost precisely because that power. That is also irrelevant, the complaint I'm making is about the entire +crit chance on slide mechanic itself.

And yes, I consider any use of Maiming Strike and the Atterax to be abuse, as it is orders stronger than any other melee option, not to mention any weapon option. Is it present in game, so you can use it? Yes. Should it be in the game? In my opinion, no.

you are blowing this way out of proportion arguing that there's so much slide spam atterax abuse you just can't take it anymore. i'm sry but that's simply not true. yes some players do it but i really don't see it in the majority of my games and like i said i play pub a lot.

there are many weapons on par with atterax basically any melee that can crit and proc slash reliably.

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

Except that your "fun" can actively ruin the way other play the game and creates an unhealthy step in the game's progression. Just because it's fun for you doesn't make it necessarily a good thing.

See Limbo stasis

yes "fun" is a subjective thing and by going in a public lobby you should have a healthy dose of tolerance because your "fun" can be ruined by a lot of things in this game. the solution is not to nerf them but to work on your expectations and use private lobby if all else fails.

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

lol, where do i begin.

• It takes less skill as you're spamming only one attack repeatedly
• You're hardly darting in an out, at best you're just slidig toward's groups and wiping them out than actual melee play which would use combo, blocking ect.
• With Naramon focus focus, the "risk" is removed entirely.
• Arguably, range combat takes more skill as range combat require general aiming of weaponry compared to sliding around like top.

i realize now using the word "skill" triggered something. i'll just say many players like to enjoy a casual game where they can feel powerful.

i'm not advocating spamming slide or using macros i'm arguing for the regular player like myself who likes to use slide attacks to clear a bunch of enemies in a 5-10m radius.

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

And it's the Dev job to fix abuse of game mechanics. The notion of "players wil always find exploits" is extremely shallow, it's a cycle however it's one that exist ofr a reason, through such reasoning why even bother fix bugs if new ones are gonna pop up anyway?

Just because people enjoy it does not mean it's okay. Players will never turn down being more powerful.

there will always be something, some players such as yourself, will find too cheesy or OP in this game. this is not an exploit or a bug.

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

Except it stacks with maiming Strike, so the notion of it being an alternative is faulty, it's more power creep.

so instead of 1hk mobs players will be able to 1hk mobs oh the horror! ... btw there are only 8 slots for modding 

1 hour ago, Buzkyl said:

The problem still exist whether 1 or 1000 people are experiencing it.

well that's exactly the reason why i'm bothering to reply here arguing that if 1 player's fun is ruined by the other 1000's notion of fun it's not the latter that should be forced to adapt.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

So... when this gets nerfed to the ground, what's the next pitiful mechanic that a majority of players enjoy be the new target for nerfing?

[LuckyCharm]

Weird, i cant say I've ever seen anyone actually using the attarax in my missions this way. Or any weapon for that matter after telos boltaces nerf. I agree that its a strong tactic but its not as abused as say.. ev trins. or limbos in sorties

[hooperinius]

They can fix the crit scaling when they fix the broken enemy armor scaling.