Plains of Eidolon

[Sar.K.Asmus]

1 hour ago, chaosmatcher64 said:

My main problem is that new players might feel lazy to go to the star chart and just walk around the plains for their feel of the warframe environment. Like, I suggest that Plains of Eidolon should only be available to players who have finished The War Within.

That, and feel less inclined to go farming and just enjoy the sights of PoE.

For a new player (and vets):

• Want a new (released) Frame -> play star chart missions
• Need resources other then the ones that you can get in PoE -> play star chart missions
• Want prime parts -> play star chart missions
• Need Ducats for Baro -> play star chart missions
• Need corrupted mods -> play Derelict missions
• Need mods that you can't get in PoE -> play star chart missions
• Want to play a specific quest -> complete star chart/specific quests

Want to relax or get things that you can only get in PoE -> go to PoE

I see more reasons for new players to play star chart missions then to hang out in PoE :P

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Sarcasm4Free

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, chaosmatcher64 said:

My main problem is that new players might feel lazy to go to the star chart and just walk around the plains for their feel of the warframe environment. Like, I suggest that Plains of Eidolon should only be available to players who have finished The War Within.

That, and feel less inclined to go farming and just enjoy the sights of PoE.

Each represents a distinct change of pace to the others... It's like a theme park centered on the Orbiter (navigation needs a chair imo) and where it can take you.

I'd love to see them create a scenario where missions could be undertaken from relays and the observation area in the dojo as well.

New players who plug all their time in the new area without opening up the rails, farming,  getting quests done, etc. just gimp themselves long term but the game will still have something for them to do until they catch a clue.

...That's a good thing.

DE has been seeding the game with carrots for folks to chase for a while now...If you want to be the very best (like no one ever was) you gotta chase those carrots or trade for them.

DE wins regardless in that setup.

[Aeon94]

6 minutes ago, kyori said:

I treat them as to how they treat others. It is only fair.

And that leads threads to getting locked by Moderators -.-

[SilentMobius]

On 12/07/2017 at 8:18 AM, LABAL said:

You mean like the ones that actually introduced the orbiter as a playable main menu back in the update 14?

"The Liset", we log into the Liset, the Orbiter is everything below the lowering ramp.

[Kobold101]

2 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

Open world is overrated.

It something that never ends but also never really changes. In majority of games it bored me to death so I never played them for long personally. While it takes more time to get bored of it it also takes a lot of time to get any kind of 'progress' in those things.

A lot of people seem to like it but not nearly everyone would prefer them over normal quests or story-driven games.

It's not that they're overrated, it's just that it's very hard to do, and for a different kind of mindset than you seem to be in.

An example of a game that does it right is something like Skyrim. It has a lot of stuff in it. That's the key to a good open world game. It needs a lot of development time to make sure that it has enough interesting content and not too much empty space, like certain other games *coughassassinscreedcough*. People tried to emulate things like Skyrim in recent years without understanding WHY it works, and that's why many open world games suck.

I'm going to assume you have a very objective oriented mindset. While that is fine, it's not the kind of mindset of a person that enjoys open world games. That kind of mindset is along the lines of 'oh, what's this? Oh, what's that?'. Just pure exploratory wonder. 

[Kurokoz]

I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this (this conversation took a strange turn), but I do know that DE seems to be great at optimizing the game (at least compared to other games). Unless your PC just barely runs the game right now, it is unlikely you will not be able to run the Plains when it comes out. Just my opinion based on the past.

[SilentMobius]

Completely disagree.

Firstly the last thing we need is forced-teaming "raid" content. All that does is turn players against each other and entrench elitism even further.

Secondly the only reason players do these raids in other games is because of monstrous late-game loot grind, and we need that even less.

The fact is that, really, there is no such thing as "endgame" and for all players clamour for it, they have no idea what they are asking for. DE have said as much on the Devstream, "Endgame" is just "More content".

The cycle goes like this:

• Players: "We want Endgame, to use our awesome stuff in"
• Devs: "Um, ok here is some super hard stuff you need to team up to do, that will take you a long time"
• Players: "There need to be good rewards to motivate us to do this tedious forced-teaming stuff"
• Devs: "Um ok, here is some even-more-epic-that-the-last-lot-of-gear-that-takes-even-longer-to-get"
• Players: "Cool, thanks..."
• Players: "... Right done that, We want Endgame to use our new awesome stuff in"
• Devs: "..."

Most games provide, what some call, "End game" simply by making the next tier of "stuff" require consistent and repeated-ad-nausium time-commitment from multiple people, pitting them against each other so the can self-select away anyone who lowers their chances (Leading to "50 DKP minus"-like behaviour). Something that a tiny minority of player revel in and the majority simply endure. We do not need more of that in Warframe.

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by SilentMobius

[WingsOfGryphin]

20 hours ago, MrMythic said:

I think that Steve mentioned on his Twitter that while the daytime will be available to everyone, the night time will be blocked until after the war within.  

How does that even work :D ? Some players will simply see eternal daylight while their buddy next to him is shiver in fear of darkness. Or they simply get booted from the session when nighttime comes. Well ok i kinda know how it will play out - different sessions just like relays. 

[Sziklamester]

55 minutes ago, Sarcasm4Free said:

For a new player (and vets):

• Want a new (released) Frame -> play star chart missions
• Need resources other then the ones that you can get in PoE -> play star chart missions
• Want prime parts -> play star chart missions
• Need Ducats for Baro -> play star chart missions
• Need corrupted mods -> play Derelict missions
• Need mods that you can't get in PoE -> play star chart missions
• Want to play a specific quest -> complete star chart/specific quests

Want to relax or get things that you can only get in PoE -> go to PoE

I see more reasons for new players to play star chart missions then to hang out in PoE :P

 

Play some Path of Exiles. X)

Also PoE is just one open world and if the devs feel they could then they making new ones. The possibilities are endless.

[-Temp0-]

30 minutes ago, Kobold101 said:

It's not that they're overrated, it's just that it's very hard to do, and for a different kind of mindset than you seem to be in.

An example of a game that does it right is something like Skyrim. It has a lot of stuff in it. That's the key to a good open world game. It needs a lot of development time to make sure that it has enough interesting content and not too much empty space, like certain other games *coughassassinscreedcough*. People tried to emulate things like Skyrim in recent years without understanding WHY it works, and that's why many open world games suck.

I'm going to assume you have a very objective oriented mindset. While that is fine, it's not the kind of mindset of a person that enjoys open world games. That kind of mindset is along the lines of 'oh, what's this? Oh, what's that?'. Just pure exploratory wonder. 

As I said it doesn't last for long.

Even games like Skyrim or Witcher 3. Yeah at first you go in and just gather the herbs around for like 5 hours you do some quests but that's about it - it's not real world. You can explore 3d rocks, trees and lakes only for that long. Of course Witcher 3 for example has an awesome story as well.  

It doesnt beat games with an actual story like Alan Wake for example. Open world is just ultimate procrastination as open world is still dead, no matter how many quests or random events you will put into it because quantity<quality, always. There are some games like new Legend of Zelda that do a very good job at it but essentially yes it's overrated. Every dem game now has an open world in it. It's no longer something special or exciting. PoE will be a thing for some time but just like Lua or Void at some point it will just become anothe location and if you have no solid reason to be here people won't bother.

[OniDax]

7 hours ago, Arktourus said:

I disagree with the premise.  I don't think PoE is designed to address problems with enemy challenge. That's not the primary purpose of the expansion.  The primary purpose seems to be to expand the gameplay within a more lively, freer space.  That is something that Warframe needs, as the content it has is only geared toward the same finite gameplay experience.  Everything you want to see could still be done within the PoE environment.

As for the point above, the solution isn't just changing up stats, but also adding more gameplay options, which requires more tools at your disposal and more tools for enemies to use against you.  Specific case in point, a while back people on here and DE outright rejected the idea of adding some sort of grenade to the game, despite the fact that the grineer and corpus use them. The reason was that it didn't "fit" Warframe. But grenades are perhaps the simplest tactical tool used by modern militaries. Without them, there's a lot less you can do to tackle a threat. I'm not saying grenades specifically should be added, but you'll never get true "squad strategy" unless you have more tactical options. Of course, you also need a greater variety of mission objectives that can accommodate those tools.  PoE's freer environment allows all of this to happen.

This. 

 

8 hours ago, Tyloo17 said:

I want to open this by saying that I love Warframe and bear no hard feelings towards DE for the choices they've made. I was prompted to make this post because of very mixed feelings that I've had regarding Warframe for quite some time. I also want to note that I am not a professional game designer, however I have been involved in the alpha and beta stages and closely interacted with the development of a few indie games and have played games both video games and board games for many, many years.

THESE ARE MY OPINIONS.

When Plains of Eidolon was announced I was, as I'm sure many of you were, very excited. Unfortunately, my excitement quickly came to a bitter end as I realized quickly that this isn't what Warframe needs. I know there are some 3000+ hour Warframe veterans and lovers out there who are going to get angry, but try to hear me out.

For me, Warframe's fast gameplay, interesting concepts and pretty high level of customization have always brought me back to the game. With the release of The Second Dream and The War Within, alongside countless other pieces of lore, Warframe's world is - in my opinion - utterly fantastic, always dynamic and rich. I could go on and on about the good parts of Warframe: procedural generation, diversity, a good community, etc. IN MY OPINION, the problem with Warframe as it is right now and the reason that I have such mixed feelings is in Warframe's "late game" content. Or rather, in my opinion, the lack thereof.

Every time a new quest comes out, or a new prime set comes out, I always come back to the game and I play it for a week or so and then I ask myself: "Why?" For me, getting the newest gun isn't interesting, especially since all that gun really does for me is get me the next prime gun and the next after that, because the only real late game content is grinding for gear. Even Trials / Raids aren't really good late game content, because they generally end up being fairly simple and most enemies are practically too durable to kill anyways. Now, I'm not going to try to say that Warframe's problems lie in the game's grind, because honestly, they don't.

When I think of good late game content, I generally think of traditional MMORPGs. Take something like World of Warcraft, which has a lot of depth to late game dungeon crawls. Huge raids the require strategy and skill. Warframe isn't an MMORPG. It's a very unique RPG/Shooter hybrid and this content isn't ideal for Warframe, however it does illustrate a point. The reason that Warframe doesn't have the same style of late game content as an MMORPG is largely the result of one integral piece of Warframe's design: Mods.

Mods are too powerful. I'm sure there are at least a few of you who have heard stories of players who run around with 8-Forma in their Mk1 Braton and solo all of the highest level content. That's the type of thing I'm talking about. But it's not just that mods are too powerful, it's that many of them are inaccessible (like, say, Argon Scope), difficult to acquire (Rivens), and/or expensive to rank up (Rivens and Primed Mods). The result of this is that a player with a good, solid set of mods that is sufficient for pretty much all content deals magnitudes less damage than a player with the perfectly ideal build. In most RPGs, the difference is noticeable but no where near as distinct as in Warframe. This effect is the result of the exponential nature of mods and the fact that mods like Serration - the MOST BASIC damage mod - increases damage by 165% damage, compounded with the 60% fire rate increase on Speed Trigger, a slight difference in the base damage of a weapon has huge effects on the actual damage of the weapon. The result of this system, in additional to power creep, makes any sort of "damage test" or "bullet sponge" fights extremely difficult for "normal" players and easy for the "best" players. (I'm not even going to talk  as I'd like to about power creep and Riven Mods, because this post is probably going to get mostly negative feedback anyways and it really doesn't matter, because I'm just venting ideas.)

An additional problem that Warframe faces in regards to it's late game is a lack of classes and/or roles. Now, I DO NOT want to see all of the Warframes themselves turn into the equivalent of classes in most RPGs, but I think that if we ever want deep and interesting late game content, so one is going to have to be able to do the "tanking" and I don't just mean mash the 3 key on frost and hope that everyone stays inside your snowglobe.

There is never a sense of challenge in Warframe in my opinion, because it always comes down to either: "How well can you kill the bad things?" or "How quickly and safely can you get to the objective?" There isn't a sense of actual challenge that makes me think about squad strategy or anything else other than can I survive long enough to kill something or hack into that console, at least not in my 800 hours of play.

TL;DR - Warframe suffers from having mods because it creates an enormous gap between the most well equipped or skilled players and the least well equipped or skilled players that makes late game content difficult to create.

I am excited for the future of Warframe because I believe it is possible that Plains of Eidolon will be good and that DE will find more creative ways to deal with late game problems without having to rework an integral part of the game. However, for now, I'm going to let pessimism reign because I'd rather expect the worst and be surprised by the best than the other way around.

I have to disagree with you. Warframe's problem isnt that it lacks challenge. It isn't that the game is too easy. It's that the gameplay itself is so shallow and so limited and so linear. Simply put, it's boring. It's simplistic. Warframe is a game that focuses solely on getting reward items. Progression is designed around it. Rework are designed around it. Every new feature is designed around it. Even DE's current Plains of Eidolon plans involve reward items. So, when you have collected everything there is to collect, there is nothing left to do. Endgame doesn't matter as long as reward items are the only focus.

That needs to change. Warframe needs to focus on gameplay, not on reward items. That is where it could learn from some open world games. Warframe needs to be primarily about the gameplay experience. Features need to be designed to make that experience as fun, immersive, accessible, and interactive as possible. IMO, the experience Warframe needs to evoke is that of super powered warriors fighting a war against these large, system-wide threats (Grineer, Corpus, Infested, Sentients). That encapsulates and integrates everything in the game so far into a singular focus. In short: Put the "war" in Warframe. That's where the open world comes in. The open world is the perfect place to experience this.

To create this experience, Warframe can expand its gameplay. For example, we could have multi-objective missions within the open world, with various side missions. We could take on roving patrols and convoys, raid enemy bases in the environment, explore caves, commandeer enemy vehicles and use them against the enemy, engage multiple enemy factions at once, assist friendly factions, and call other factions for aid. We could take on elite open world enemies and hold off against several waves of them as they hunt us through the open world. We could complete special assignments for our syndicates and fight an indirect faction war where we're taking and holding territory for those syndicates. For those who remember this, we could see Steve's old Badlands concept added to the open world, and could see a return to the Dark Sector system.

It's within this open world that we could get challenge, but only if the core gameplay experience is focused on actual gameplay and not rewards. Rewards are fine, but the game shouldn't be focused on it. In other words, Warframe needs to stop being a looter and needs to become a third person sci-fi action shooter with loot. To facilitate such a change in focus, the progression system needs to be one that promotes gameplay and not collecting items. Some people, many probably, will disagree here as the current system is all they know, but the Mastery system needs to be reworked so that mastery is awarded for all in-game actions (all types of kills, scans, console hacks, etc) regardless of item rank. Ranking up items would still be the primary means of gaining mastery and would award the most mastery points by far, but with other in-game actions also awarding mastery, players would have an alternate path to gaining rank and progressing. What this would do is to make any and all gameplay work towards progression, even if you've collected and maxed out all items in the game. That promotes gameplay and makes all gameplay rewarding so that reward items aren't the be all, end all of the game. That is important for a successful open world experience. It gives players a reason to play the game when they've hit the content ceiling. And it is important to having long-lasting repeatability.

So that's what i think Warframe needs. That's what i think will make Plains of Eidolon a success. And that's what i think will revitalize Warframe's gameplay. I dont think you can have enduring endgame or challenge outside of that.

Edited July 13, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Tricky5hift]

I don't really see anything wrong with trying to add new content with the game.

I mean considering how people complain all the freaking time about not having anything to do this seems to be an appropriate step instead of just adding more weapons and Warframes.

My concern is if they can make this open-world actually engaging instead of just a big pretty set-piece for us to stare at *cough* Destiny *cough*.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

7 hours ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

you make some valid points. endgame (or lack thereof) has always been something DE have wanted to address, and we can't blame them for trying: they gave us raids, they gave us Sorties, they gave us Endless modes, but they aren't enough anymore. this could well be because of mods making us a tad too powerful, but whatever it is, it means current content is pretty trivial: Raids only need a decent setup and one or two old-hands to teach any newbies how to do each part, and you've got Youtubers like Zanagoth who can do the raid as an 8 man team all using the same frame. Sorties are easy enough to do with regular gear, it's only certain modifiers that offer a challenge, and they aren't really rewarding enough. as for endless runs, many will argue that the appeal of endless runs died with the old Void Key system's removal. going endless on other maps doesn't appeal as much now that there's no prime parts for doing it.

we can blame mods, we can blame enemy scaling and whatever else, but we can't say DE haven't tried. every time they give us something new and every time we beat it over and over, then we begin to realise how unrewarding it feels without challenge and begin to complain about it, so DE makes another piece of "endgame" Content and the cycle repeats itself.

we need to break the cycle, and I'm hoping that Eidolon, particularly it's night-time gameplay, will offer something unique and challenging for Veteran players. we don't want Eidolon to go to waste, we want it to flourish and be expanded upon as much as possible.

 

 

I think the only way to truly give us a challenge would be to hamper us severely in a matter of ways. Like, for example, not allowing certain enemies to be hit with Critical Hits if they don't have "X" removed, or are completely immune to bullets unless shot "here".

I don't think we can just make tougher and tougher enemies when Mods like Rivens and infinite scaling exist.

[DxAdder]

The fact is we know very little about PoE.  I'm sure in time DE will release more details. At this point I just treat like any other E3 announcement.

 

[Volinus7]

Balance overhaul is much more exciting than fishing minigame, bigger open map, archwing transition and custom made weapons.

[The_Mustachio]

Wasn't there a similar post like this, right before Archwing was released? Lol

[PookieNumnums]

You should remove the first seven paragraphs.

 

I'd like to add that rivens aren't hard to max out. 2 anasa covers that in endo. Credits can be reasonably farmed.

I don't believe in "power creep" in this game that has endless missions we can choose to stay in for as long as we are able. I like to look at it as progression when stuff becomes stronger in terms of the damage it can deal and I'm not sure that I'd like it if they suddenly imposed a max "toughness" on enemies then balanced everything accordingly with that as the limit. Endless would become literally that If you are able to subdue their cap. Also, the gimmick weapons they have I think for the majority haven't been interesting enough to justify their lack of strength in most cases. 

Rivens were a great idea imo allowing a lot of weapons to get custom buffs based on luck and preference that were just collecting dust prior.  

 

I do agree that they should however reconsider what they consider to be challenging. Imo they need to increase the involvement of players with tilesets to achieve goals beyond what we have seen just in raids and basic gameplay in a way that interacts with the enemies. 

[Shifted]

Note: While posting this I'm ignoring all the other comments in this thread and replying solely to the OP, so pardon me if this was already mentioned.

You raise some thoughtful points but the solutions you suggest likely won't happen.

Don't get me wrong, I also think the game's balance is extremely skewed because of mods, but sadly DE put themselves into the corner with the release of Rivens.
Now that they're out, it would cause massive issues to remove them or adjust them in any meaningful way other than dispositions.
You just have to accept this as the new standard, and urge them to not go any further with this.

Now, PoE is bringing those massive enemies, and they're meant to be the new 'hardest', possibly 'endgame' content, and a new chapter of introducing the sentients (which are supposed to be the 'endgame' faction)
I'm actually curious how they're going to manage it, and am cautiously optimistic about it.
I think no matter what happens, it will be more interesting than dealing with herding people for raids, or ridiculous enemy scaling in sorties (for yet another ayatan treasure...)

Lastly, loot will always be an integral part of Warframe's 'carrot', and I really don't see DE changing it.
What I'm rather hoping for is improving the core gameplay elements, so chasing that inevitable carrot is at least more enjoyable.
After all, the game updates so often that there's always something else to catch...

PS
Also, here's hoping Umbra isn't just "go farm the same frame for the third time! It has slightly more <random stat>!" scenario...

[Volinus7]

If the balance goes untouched, people will soon notice that it's ssdd with bigger map and fishing minigame...

[Unus]

51 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

As I said it doesn't last for long.

Even games like Skyrim or Witcher 3. Yeah at first you go in and just gather the herbs around for like 5 hours you do some quests but that's about it - it's not real world. You can explore 3d rocks, trees and lakes only for that long. Of course Witcher 3 for example has an awesome story as well.  

It doesnt beat games with an actual story like Alan Wake for example. Open world is just ultimate procrastination as open world is still dead, no matter how many quests or random events you will put into it because quantity<quality, always. There are some games like new Legend of Zelda that do a very good job at it but essentially yes it's overrated. Every dem game now has an open world in it. It's no longer something special or exciting. PoE will be a thing for some time but just like Lua or Void at some point it will just become anothe location and if you have no solid reason to be here people won't bother.

I think the BEST part of this particular open-world game portion however is that it is a part of a game that is still actually growing, innovating, and mutateing. Unlike many of the other games where what is shipped is all there may be barring wallet-opening, Digital can plug and remove whenever and whatever the ell they desire.m once the framework is assembled.

 

 

[Legion-Shields]

On 7/9/2017 at 10:12 AM, victoremz said:

This is crazy, the game is already destroying Destiny 2 and Anthem... And if they make each planet open world, I guess that's were the game will be truly complete, I guess. 

Never complete....always evolving.....

[(XBOX)LAZYNOOB2017]

If every planet was open world (besides Jupiter, they might have to battle Disney for the Cloud City rights) that would be awesome.

[Kinetos]

21 minutes ago, (Xbox One)LAZYNOOB2015 said:

If every planet was open world (besides Jupiter, they might have to battle Disney for the Cloud City rights) that would be awesome.

Or any of countless other examples? I doubt there would be a problem. 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Kinetos

[SxYBulleT]

well, when will it be added to warframe? ( Plains of eidolon)

 

[Zisruj]

So I've been looking around YouTube & google for an overview of the market that will come with Plains of Eidolon. I so a lot of stuff (notably the Hok's Anvil & the stuff with Kavats) in the TennoCon video. The video obviously didn't cover the entire market & I was wondering if anyone could tell me or point me to where I can find out what all will actually be in the market, if that list actually exists. Thanks in advance if anyone can help.