The new Zenurik... Just no

[Mudfam]

Edit based on new information:

This thread was created in response to this:

Which made it sound like we had to stand somewhere to regain energy. Apparently that is not the case, but rather a 30 second buff is granted when entering it as shown in this stream at 5 hours and 19 minutes.

It does look like it might get tedious doing this to keep your energy up, but it is much more fluid and generally better than I expected. That is if they fix the terrible lag issues with operators. The original premise of the thread is not really relevant anymore.

The discussion about energy economy is still relevant. Seems those of us that want to stay mobile and use our powers have to jump through some extra hoops, for those that are concerned about hypothetical ability spam it looks like things maybe got a bit worse (if it really stacks), but I don't think EO was ever what supported cheesy lazy strategies given the superior options out there.

 

Original post:

This game's strengths are its fast pace and mobility. I play it because leaping around like spiderman had way too many stimulants and using powers is fun. That's what keeps me playing after years. Without that, eeeehh..?

So now with Focus 2.0 in place of energy overflow we get a deployable bubble, because Ninjas... Sit in bubbles!

This is just such an incredibly awful idea. It is both redundant and detrimental to gameplay. Scrap it immediately.

This isn't a way to balance energy gains, it's the opposite. EO didn't need balancing anyway, it was the only balanced energy mechanic, it gave consistent and predictable regeneration. All other sources of energy are sporadic and completely unbalanced. Yeah, yeah, "caster frames did fine before EO", that was when you just didn't leave the house without Mummy (Trinity). I don't ever want to go back to that - it's broken on so many levels.

With all the incredibly broken unbalanced things in this game, why did we have to kill the one thing that made perfect sense with a gameplay nerf? This is not what supports the meta of channeled abilities and spam cheese tactics, broken efficiency modding and EV does that, pizzas do that. All this does is give the finger to energy hungry frames that need to actively use their abilities and mobility to be effective - these are already in a bad spot compared to the invincible / invisible / tanky / channeled monster frames that support a lazy playstyle and barely need any energy at all.

EO is popular, but for once that's because it is a good mechanic, not an OP mechanic, and because everything else is garbage unless you perversely enjoy Naramon cheese. It is not what enables all that smelly cheese, and if it does enable something OP then that's the thing that needs to be looked at - not the one and only sensible and balanced mechanic we ever had.

Regardless of all of that, Warframe is at its best when it's about going fast, about using mobility and the environment. Campy farm tactics have always been its bane, please just stop steering the game in that direction. Stop encouraging us to stay still and lock everything down, stop punishing us for wanting to move by adding a cost to it. This doesn't only apply here.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Mudfam

[Mepheri]

its basically a free energy pizza, it might be alright, it might fill like 10 energy/sec, the thing is, we dont know specifics yet, so we dont know how good/bad focus 2.0 is.

[SurrealEdge]

4 minutes ago, Mudfam said:

Stop encouraging us to stay still and lock everything down, stop punishing us for wanting to move by adding a cost to it. This doesn't only apply here.

Sure, game is speedy, but uh, you forget that Berehynia has taken over for old Draco. And let's not forget the days of sitting in a sewer pipe in the void, because maximizing effectiveness.

And to the rest of the argument, how have you survived this long before the current focus system existed? It's still an early concept as far as we know, we haven't been given the exact details of how it works, or even have it to test and figure out what could be changed to it. All we have now is a concept of how it could work, not how it will work.

[BlueberryIsWar]

Don't worry, there will be an army of players that play Rage Tank Frames or Invisible frames or room nuke channel frames that will tell you to just manage your Energy.

It's always the same response.

DE's logic that EO is overpowered with 4 energy per sec, when Energy Pizzas exist that give you 100 energy per pulse, is just out of this world. Or a finsihed EV Trin that restores your Energy from zero to full in a second?

[Navarc]

I really like the new Zenurik concept, instead of total immortality & infinite energy it requires the player to.. play. I'm a big fan of playing games.
I maxed out Zenurik but I grew bored of it what feels like.. 2 years ago? I'm hoping the rework might bring back the interest to it, but something tells me I'm going to continue being a Vazarin main.

DE hasn't elaborated what they mean by that they intend on looking over how energy functions in the game as a whole. I'm going to wait for that before making too many assumptions.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Navarchus

[Mudfam]

1 minute ago, SurrealEdge said:

Sure, game is speedy, but uh, you forget that Berehynia has taken over for old Draco. And let's not forget the days of sitting in a sewer pipe in the void, because maximizing effectiveness.

Exactly my point..? Or are you saying these are good things and we should encourage them with more campy mechanics? I've done Draco and Bere once, just to see what the fuss is about. I avoid interception and defence missions like the plague, because they bore me to tears. I socialise more than most in this game, and I've yet to meet someone who enjoys this stuff. Back in the void days we did the odd endurance run, but on normal runs when it got to the point where we were forced to camp it was time to leave, because it was no longer fun.

 

7 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said:

And to the rest of the argument, how have you survived this long before the current focus system existed?

I actually mostly stopped playing for almost a year, it was the addition of zenurik and some high level missions that got me enjoying the game again. I can set a fairly challenging standard for the game without feeling forced to resort to cheesy tactics or easy mode builds.

 

10 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said:

It's still an early concept as far as we know, we haven't been given the exact details of how it works, or even have it to test and figure out what could be changed to it. All we have now is a concept of how it could work, not how it will work.

We've been given information, and this is my feedback on the information given. That's kinda the whole point of the information, it being still subject to change and this very forum category.

[Corial]

I have been doing fine with just slapping in either specialized efficiency build or pure survivability build on warframes, you should try that 

Havent used focus ability in, 3 weeks soon? 

[IfritKajiTora]

I like that OP zenurik energy overflow and Naramon show stop will be removed, but:

I just don't like the new zenurik mechanic, while Naramon got 50% melee damage buff, Zenruik got useless 50% melee efficiency... it's useless because Channeling means 50% more melee damage but cost energy, while Naramon got it for free and Life strike is -140% efficiency so yeah, for Life strike users like me it will be useless, I'm using channeling only with Life strike to regen health.

15-25% Warframe power efficiency would be a lot better. Or Warframe Maximum energy buff +picking up energy orbs grants extra 10 energy, and even more max energy for operator. Maybe after end of void pulse (hold 5), will grant 2.5 energy per second for 15 seconds (nerfed energy overlow).
Or maybe even passive that works once per 90seconds, when your energy drop below 15% of your maximum energy, zenurik will start to regen your energy 2.5 energy per second for 15 seconds.

Any of this would be better than Zenurik efficiency for melee. Because it's really weak, and what Zenurik have to deal with Melee? Naramon is melee type, zenurik is energy type, not melee.

Edited October 2, 2017 by IfritKajiTora

[kyori]

The upcoming focus system requires the kid to come out to 'achieve their objective' before the focus will work. That is already a step backwards from the now only press 5 for focus power.

Perhaps many people complained the game is too easy hence DE made it more hassle and troublesome so as to be a challenge. lol

[Mudfam]

1 minute ago, Corial said:

I have been doing fine with just slapping in either specialized efficiency build or pure survivability build on warframes, you should try that 

Havent used focus ability in, 3 weeks soon? 

Corial you know me, and you know I like high risk hectic gameplay. I play squishy frames and I enjoy that, you like to play Inaros. My entire point is that I don't want to do that, I need a reason to use the mobility in the game to enjoy myself, and having at least some vague reason to do so over playing something that can facetank and steamroll everything.

Either way this is completely besides the point, we all know a million ways to completely trivialise the game, let alone overcome some minor adversity. I just don't think the game should discourage anything but campy and unchallenging playstyles.

[Corial]

Just now, Mudfam said:

Corial you know me, and you know I like high risk hectic gameplay. I play squishy frames and I enjoy that, you like to play Inaros. My entire point is that I don't want to do that, I need a reason to use the mobility in the game to enjoy myself, and having at least some vague reason to do so over playing something that can facetank and steamroll everything.

Either way this is completely besides the point, we all know a million ways to completely trivialise the game, let alone overcome some minor adversity. I just don't think the game should discourage anything but campy and unchallenging playstyles.

Well since we are in same clan, definitely 

Lets hope those new arcanes turn out to be something pretty neat for new age of Warframe 

[Cortanis]

34 minutes ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

DE's logic that EO is overpowered with 4 energy per sec, when Energy Pizzas exist that give you 100 energy per pulse, is just out of this world. Or a finsihed EV Trin that restores your Energy from zero to full in a second?

Well, they are talking about reworking Trin too, but Harrow kind of blows that out of the water anyway. The energy pizza thing... DE must be high. I literally spam three at the start of every mission just to give two tick full energy so we can be on our way full out the gate.Blow seven just for a full charge and screw the cost? Sure, why not. It's not like many of us have been playing for years and were already used to that or anything. It just means I have to go farm out more poly bundles since I'm going to be blowing through a couple k in energy pizzas every few days. Still no biggie. EO just made sense and was a lot more balanced than a lot of the things they're doing in the name of balance. Even if they nerf Trin into the ground, Harrow is arguably more broken than she is. So what then?

[Voltage]

I am really dreading pre zenurik times. It was awful. I remember Draco recruit chat and the only thing ever needed was “EV” which people would crutch on so much. After Zenurik you could play frames like Saryn and do whatever you want, but now it’s going to be pad spam or “need EV” everywhere. Hopefully DE realizes the issue and it is addressed, but I doubt it. Great point OP and I agree 100%.

[Mudfam]

11 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said:

I just don't like the new zenurik mechanic, while Naramon got 50% melee damage buff, Zenruik got useless 50% melee efficiency... it's useless because Channeling means 50% more melee damage but cost energy, while Naramon got it for free and Life strike is -140% efficiency so yeah, for Life strike users like me it will be useless, I'm using channeling only to with Life strike to regen health.

Ugh, yeah, I almost forgot about that. Channeling efficiency..? It's so irrelevant and niche in today's melee, life strike is literally the only reason you'd consider using it.

 

13 minutes ago, IfritKajiTora said:

15-25% Warframe power efficiency would be a lot better. Or Warframe Maximum energy buff +picking up energy orbs grants extra 10 energy, and even more max energy for operator. Maybe after end of void pulse (hold 5), will grant 2.5 energy per second for 15 seconds (nerfed energy overlow).
Or maybe even passive that works once per 90seconds, when your energy drop below 15% of your maximum energy, zenurik will start to regen your energy 2.5 energy per second for 15 seconds.

None of the other sources of energy work. Energy orbs are way too RNG, sometimes they're everywhere, sometimes you literally will not see a single one until you've basically finished the mission. The other forms of energy restoration are just lame and overpowered.

EO just worked. It set a clear standard for what you can and cannot do. It also provided a form of passive healing and a shared resource to manage for squishy frames that rely on QT to not get one shot in higher levels and have no way to heal. Using powers or getting hit weakened you, creating tension and a worthwhile gameplay dynamic.

This really did not need to be nerfed at all, it was an equaliser between outmoded underpowered frames and the insanely powerful and self-sufficient ones. This is has turned into misdirected community witch-hunt. I don't think DE wants to nerf the energy regeneration, they want to force us to go into operator mode, but this particular way of doing it is extremely detrimental to gameplay.

[xXDeadsinxX]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I am really dreading pre zenurik times. It was awful. I remember Draco recruit chat and the only thing ever needed was “EV” which people would crutch on so much. After Zenurik you could play frames like Saryn and do whatever you want, but now it’s going to be pad spam or “need EV” everywhere. Hopefully DE realizes the issue and it is addressed, but I doubt it. Great point OP and I agree 100%.

Exactly! I absolutely agree with you, it's the whole energy system in general that needs to be looked at.

Edited October 2, 2017 by xXDeadsinxX
Worded better

[Wolfchild07]

Squishy, energy hungry frames need Zenurik. Why even bother playing one now if this is what it's going to be. Just take Inaros with rage and then don't bother having to worry about energy. It just buffs the frames that don't need it while nerfing the ones that do.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, BlueberryIsWar said:

DE's logic that EO is overpowered with 4 energy per sec, when Energy Pizzas exist that give you 100 energy per pulse, is just out of this world. Or a finsihed EV Trin that restores your Energy from zero to full in a second?

this so much...

but hey, they "don't want Warframe to be infinite power spam: the game" ...

[BlueberryIsWar]

1 hour ago, kyori said:

The upcoming focus system requires the kid to come out to 'achieve their objective' before the focus will work. That is already a step backwards from the now only press 5 for focus power.

Perhaps many people complained the game is too easy hence DE made it more hassle and troublesome so as to be a challenge. lol

That is literally what they always do. See nullifiers, see magnetic procs, ...

[DrBorris]

I really, really wish people would quit acting like the world is going to end with the Focus rework. Like... we have an extremely small idea of the direction of the Focus rework (note that we don't know ANY of the universal passives) and beyond that we know nothing about the new Arcanes coming with the Arcane rework. 

 

But I know my wish will not come true and people will continue to expect the worst. Tis just a wish...

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, Mudfam said:

So now with Focus 2.0 in place of energy overflow we get a deployable bubble, because Ninjas... Sit in bubbles!

This is just such an incredibly awful idea. It is both redundant and detrimental to gameplay. Scrap it immediately.

I fully agree with you here.
And its not just Zenurik but Vazarin.  I mean seriously, having to void dash through your team-mates to grant them invincibility?
With how finnicky void-dashing is, and with how mobile the frames are, I can honestly say that the vast majority of time you'll be spending 3 or more void jumps before you get it right, or telling your friend "Hey I know you're in danger but how about you hold perfectly still so I can switch to operator and void-dash through you!"  I can't believe that they honestly thought that was a good idea.
Also good luck aiming where your zenurik bubble will appear unless you dash straight up.
Even Unairu's invisibility active requires you to sit in a bubble from their overly vague description.  Yay!  You're invisible as long as you don't move away from the operator standing there out in the open with 100 health and zero shields!

Pretty much the only useful passive abilities that they've revealed so far are Madurai, bonus to physical for one and elemental damage for the other that lasts for the rest of the mission?  That's a good passive.
Naramon is a second at least.  Bonus melee affinity and melee damage?  That works for melee focused frames but depending on whether its a "+50%" or "x1.5" will be a large determining factor in how good it actually is (And yes they are not the same due to how the game calculates bonuses and multipliers and such)
Zenuriks revealed passives just aren't that good.  Its "Oh look, allies get a small percentage of the energy orbs I pick up!" which is worthless compared to the current meta of pizzas and trins unless its on the level of Arcane energize and also increases the energy you get per pickup.  The other one of "Hey you get melee channeling efficiency!  You know the thing no one uses because its objectively horrible in the vast majority of use cases!" is pointless.
Unairu will be as pointless as ever.  Reflecting damage back at the enemies?  Pointless considering that their damage output means literally nothing compared to their EHP.  Their damage output is only ever high compared to our EHP which is miniscule compared to theirs.  And bonus armor which while good in some few, few situations, isn't that useful really.
And it looks like Vazarin is getting no changes what-so-ever.  And this one really needed a buff considering that its only true passive was the bonus affinity range as the instant revives require you to use your operator mode over and over again to recharge it.

DE wants a fast paced and active game where players don't just camp in one spot, and then they make a change which enforces the "Sit in one spot and never leave" mentality.

The changes that DE is showing off is overall a step back for the focus system, not a step forward.
Their actives will be harder to utilize (seriously having to void-dash through allies?  Aiming your void-dash landings?  Having a chance to disarm enemies with no other effects?  Or how about having to stay in operator form and provide invisibility for nearby allies as you sit there with 100 hp and zero shields unable to defend yourself as you have to stand still in an area to remain invisible?) and their passives are either the same as current or far, far worse with the Exception of Madurai getting a sizable buff.

If they wan'ted people to have a variety of focus schools chosen then they've gone about it wrong because as I see it the only schools people will choose is Madurai and Naramon due to their passives actually being worth a damn.

17 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

But I know my wish will not come true and people will continue to expect the worst. Tis just a wish...

People expect the worst because honestly: How many systems has DE actually gotten right on launch or re-launch?
Very few compared to the many that they've reworked over the life of the game.
So there are reasons people expect the worst, especially with what DE has shown off.

Either they've:
A) Shown off the best of the new system which bodes horribly for the rest of it
Or B) Shown off the worst of the new system thinking that it would somehow garner some hype.

Nothing DE has revealed about the new system brings much hope, just the sight of blanket nerfs to nearly everything, a major buff to one school when 2 others needed the buff as well, and that they are leaving two of the schools as pointless after the rework as they were before the rework.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[Cortanis]

3 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

I really, really wish people would quit acting like the world is going to end with the Focus rework. Like... we have an extremely small idea of the direction of the Focus rework (note that we don't know ANY of the universal passives) and beyond that we know nothing about the new Arcanes coming with the Arcane rework. 

 

But I know my wish will not come true and people will continue to expect the worst. Tis just a wish...

We know only what they're willing to release and we have only what has been said to go by... and it doesn't look good. In fact, it looks spiteful... again. It looks like DE is throwing little more than a fit about it. As for arcanes, from what's been said and shown, they look to be more operator oriented in nature or possibly weapon based in some cases. They've already said that current arcanes are going to be staying where they are, so it's unlikely that energizer will be showing up along with some of the other really popular ones.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Two things... first, I wasn't aware that anyone had been given access to the full reworked Zenurik tech tree, Arcane Crafting system and Operator Warrior rework for comparison to our current system... Share with us your massive spoilers!

Second, and I just want to be clear that, yes, I use Zenurik myself... but that doesn't mean Energy Overflow is good.

Why? Because it doesn't cost you anything once you have it.

Something DE have been adamant about in this game, once they've put something in, seen how it works in the 'real world' and had time to go over all the data, is that nothing in this game comes without active involvement.

There are some things where all you have to do is equip the right frame and weapon to get a boost. There are some things where all you have to do is sacrifice a mod slot. Some are just the cost of grinding resources and creating a bit of gear. There are even some where all you have to do is equip the right frame and cast an ability and you start getting energy back. 

Focus based passive regen means when you've gone through the grind, forevermore you are able to get free, constant energy at 4 energy per second. There is no cost to actually using it once you have it. Considering the effort you put in to attain Energy Overflow, how much have you used it by comparison? Every mission since?

The thing is that this enables play that would otherwise be non-functional. It basically becomes a crutch to make bad builds plausible. You can have your negative efficiency build, your Blind Rage maxed out, where it used to only be possible with a high-power Trinity on your side. These niche builds we used for pure farming or for pure camping in the Void... they're now viable with that 4 energy per second regen.

But that's just it, friend, these builds aren't viable without that regen. If you were another player without the Focus yet, or who picked a different school, those builds wouldn't work.

DE have decided to change it so that we have to pay the cost. You'll get all your affinity back to respec into the school as you want, but you will definitely have to play the game with energy regen coming at a cost to use.

And before you jump in again with the line 'we're a mobile, fluid game, stop making us stand in bubbles', there are literally six different modes in this game (defense, mobile defense, interception, excavation, defection and arena) that encourage you to move between points of standing around, if not outright standing around. Even survival, if you're smart, has you pick a room with lots of spawn-areas outside it and stay where you have easy access to life support as well as places to draw enemies into groups, and stay there.

DE know their game and where they want to head with it. If they say that the first step towards eradicating infinite power spam is to take away the most broken tool of energy regen in the game? Then that's what we're going to have to cope with.

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Mepheri said:

its basically a free energy pizza, it might be alright, it might fill like 10 energy/sec, the thing is, we dont know specifics yet, so we dont know how good/bad focus 2.0 is.

Even if it would grant 100 energy/sec it would be still a "sit tight afk there" type of skill. Pizzas are supposed to be an emergency supply not the main way to get energy, this defensive style of is great for def maps and all but this is a game about mobility and ninjas.

[Fallen_Echo]

25 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

The thing is that this enables play that would otherwise be non-functional. It basically becomes a crutch to make bad builds plausible. You can have your negative efficiency build, your Blind Rage maxed out, where it used to only be possible with a high-power Trinity on your side. These niche builds we used for pure farming or for pure camping in the Void... they're now viable with that 4 energy per second regen.

Going with this logic trinity itself is a crutch. Blind rage as every other mod should be useable when maxed out, not just when you have trinity in the team. 

Also what makes you say its a bad build? Needing to always have atlest 160% efficiency to make a frame useable means that the frame is badly designed, going for 75% efficiency shouldnt cripple your frame and yet it does.

Zenurik energy overflow let people who dont want to constantly make pizzas or search for trinities able to use a frame to its fullest, no build choice were deemed useless. You did not had to go for the Meta build because that was the only energy efficient way to use the frame you could go and do anything you want.

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Zenuriks revealed passives just aren't that good.  Its "Oh look, allies get a small percentage of the energy orbs I pick up!" which is worthless compared to the current meta of pizzas and trins unless its on the level of Arcane energize and also increases the energy you get per pickup.  The other one of "Hey you get melee channeling efficiency!  You know the thing no one uses because its objectively horrible in the vast majority of use cases!" is pointless.

Wait a bit this is what they changed so far?  Turned the energy overflow into energy surge? Kept the energy spike and turned the systematic override into a channel efficiency effect?

I had my fears that this rework will be the same quality as hydroids rework or the limbo afterwork but seriously?

 

Energy Surge
Void Pulse will leave a field that replenishes 2 energy per second to allies standing within it for 5 / 7 / 10 / 12 seconds.

Energy Spike Void Pulse causes energy orbs to restore energy to allies within 3 / 4 / 6 / 8 meters for the duration of the mission.

Systemic Override
Void Pulse increases the efficiency of Warframe abilities by 20% for 15 / 20 / 25 / 30 seconds.