Primes Should not be Side-grades

[Voltage]

It is frustrating how every new Prime Access has a side grade in it. Akbolto Prime has less base damage and less fire rate than Telos Akbolto. Why? What happened to Primes being the best weapon version of their normal counterpart? Kogake Prime can only be built for status because its crit chance is lower than normal Kogake. We don't need a Tigris and Galatine Prime every Prime Access, but atleast make these weapons worth our time. They will be 50 plat in the next 72 hours given that the Telos Akbolto is much easier to obtain, and has marginally different stats. Bring back hyped up weapons like when we got Vectis Prime and Carrier Prime with Ash Prime Access, or when we got Spira Prime with Saryn. Getting Cernos Prime, Ballistica Prime, and now this Prime Access is a turn off to waiting 90 days for upgraded gear. Underrated gear should be primed, and I have no issue with Kogake (if it were a straight upgrade), but more Syndicate Sidegrades and sidegraded stats just make me want to use old gear.

Edited December 12, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[(PSN)kishteralt]

im getting the access no because the weapon, im getting because the Plat and the sexy mirage. So chill up.

[GrayArchon]

When was it ever stated that prime gear is supposed to be the best possible version of a weapon? What's stopping Baro from bringing Prisma Tigris with double the crit and status of Tigris Prime?

[NekroArts]

I find it strange that you decide to leave out what did get boosted.

[Rawbeard]

1 minute ago, NekroArts said:

I find it strange that you decide to leave out what did get boosted.

it's not strange, since it would hurt his argument.

[Zephyr_TheMLGPro]

6 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

It is frustrating how every new Prime Access has a side grade in it. Akbolto Prime has less base damage and less fire rate than Telos Akbolto. Why? What happened to Primes being the best weapon version of their normal counterpart? Kogake Prime can only be built for status because its crit chance is lower than normal Kogake. We don't need a Tigris and Galatine Prime every Prime Access, but atleast make these weapons worth our time. They will be 50 plat in the next 72 hours given that the Telos Akbolto is much easier to obtain, and has marginally different stats. Bring back hyped up weapons like when we got Vectis Prime and Carrier Prime with Ash Prime Access, or when we got Spira Prime with Saryn. Getting Cernos Prime, Ballistica Prime, and now this Prime Access is a turn off to waiting 90 days for upgraded gear. Underrated gear should be primed, and I have no issue with Kogake (if it were a straight upgrade), but more Syndicate Sidegrades and sidegraded stats just make me want to use old gear.

It has less damage than telos but has base 35% crit and reaches to 103% with just primed pistol gambit. Not to mention you can pretty well hit orange crits with a good riven

[GinKenshin]

last time I checked, condition overload was a thing 


I also checked that slightly less dmg is nothing when the wep has more crit chance, as in more chance to DOUBLE+ the dmg >____________> 

Edited December 12, 2017 by GinKenshin

[Voltage]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)kishteralt said:

im getting the access no because the weapon, im getting because the Plat and the sexy mirage. So chill up.

I never once mentioned Mirage.

3 minutes ago, GrayArchon said:

When was it ever stated that prime gear is supposed to be the best possible version of a weapon? What's stopping Baro from bringing Prisma Tigris with double the crit and status of Tigris Prime?

Right from the Wiki: "Primes frequently sport improved damage, more Polarity slots, or other stat changes that grant them an advantage over their non-Prime derivatives." Why should an easier to obtain version of a weapon offer more than the Prime variant that takes relics, traces, and RNG to unlock?

1 minute ago, NekroArts said:

I find it strange that you decide to leave out what did get boosted.

Because less crit for more status, or less base damage for crit is a clear upgrade and makes me want to invest forma into something that is better when the Crit RNG works in your favor.

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

when we got Spira Prime

Unsure if this is a great example since it was so bad at first that they buffed it.

[Acollector]

-

Edited March 7, 2018 by --Q--Forcellrus

[--F--NerevarCM]

2 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

it's not strange, since it would hurt his argument.

On point!

[Emulad0or]

Why do we even need an upgrade anyway? I mean, what we have now is more than enough in terms of power. I myself like sidegrades. Take your own Telos Bolto exemple:

-It is a Syndicate Weapon, not a normal weapon, it doesn't make sense that the Prime "needs to be stronger" than it

-IF it were a straight upgrade, why would people ever use Talos Bolto ever again? Do we actually need another useless weapon in our arsenal?

[(PSN)kishteralt]

The deal whit getting access to prime weapon that start to breaking the balance on game is when people start calling the game PTW even when is a PVE game. Im no mad because were getting MEH weapon, im mad because is no  synoid simulor PRIME... BOOM

[Voltage]

7 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

it's not strange, since it would hurt his argument.

If you read my title, it said sidegrade, not downgrade. If you read my post, I explained the Status on Kogake. Please explain how these weapons are worth your time without the mentioning of Riven Mods. 6,000 Mastery and making my profile have less gray spots is all I can see.

Edited December 12, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[NekroArts]

10 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

it's not strange, since it would hurt his argument.

Leaving it out can really misguide others. Before I read this I didn't know the stats of those weapons and after reading it I had doubts. After looking them up there were stats that did get improve, enough to convince me that this argument was pushing further than what appears.

I'm okay if you feel that a Prime is weaker/side-grade from the other variants, what I don't like is leaving out crucial information to just to support your argument. Acknowledging the strong points yet saying it's not enough would've been so much better.

Edited December 12, 2017 by NekroArts

[Cifrer]

3 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Right from the Wiki: "Primes frequently sport improved damage, more Polarity slots, or other stat changes that grant them an advantage over their non-Prime derivatives." Why should an easier to obtain version of a weapon offer more than the Prime variant that takes relics, traces, and RNG to unlock?

Right from your post:   "Primes frequently sport improved damage, more Polarity slots, or other stat changes that grant them an advantage over their non-Prime derivatives."

Let me point out the important word there.  Frequently.  It means more often than not.  It doesn't mean always.

 

People who are buying Prime Access aren't trying to P2W as you seem to suggest.  They're buying things for the looks because "fashionframe is endgame."  They're buying it for MR.  They're buying it for basically a discount on Plat.  Typically they're buying it for all of the above.

[GinKenshin]

so, just to clarify, did you test these weps out?

did you pull out a lvl100 (or whatever) bombard, killed it with telos akbolto, seen how much ammo/time it takes, then pull out the akbolto p and tested that out and THEN came to the conclusion that they're basically the same? 

same thing with kogake, did you test out the standard one and the prime one and they both killed the test enemy in the same time/number or hits? 


ofc you need to test multiple times. don't just test once ;) 

[Azamagon]

Akbolto Prime is weak at base (32 vs 50), yes and has lower RoF (7 vs 10). Though note that the lower RoF is negligble at the moment, as semi-auto fire rate is capped at 10 anyway (easily achieved with Lethal Torrent).

BUT

It also has guaranteed crits with Primed PG (36% vs 10%), higher critmultiplier (2.8x vs 2.0x), HALF the reloadspeed (1.3 vs 2.6), bigger magsize (40 vs 30), slightly more statuschance (14% vs 12,5%) and 4 great polarities (VVV- vs D-).

Overall, it's a nice improvement. It's more reliable and has lots of QoL to it, at the cost of some basedamage (but with crits in mind, it is still vastly stronger than the base)

----

Kogake Prime loses critchance (16% vs 20%) and critmultiplier (1.8x vs 2.0x), but has DOUBLE damage (70 vs 35) and a HUGE upgrade to status chance (34% vs 10%), along with 3 great polarities (VVV vs None).

Overall, that's also a big improvement. While it has slightly less critpotential, it's got huge improvements to counteract the losses as well. Now, consider Condition Overload and you have an absolute monster of a DPS-weapon.

[MagPrime]

So.... you want Prime Access Power Creep?

That's exactly what would happen if every Primed weapon was a direct upgrade to it's vanilla counterpart. And I haven't been able to find where DE states that;

20 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Primes being the best weapon version of their normal counterpart

Besides the wiki, can you provide a source?

[DeMonkey]

Okey dokey then, just mathed it out.

AkBolto Prime has slightly superior sustained DPS on top of the increase in status chance.

Telos has higher burst, much higher burst. 200 damage per second higher. As well as the truth effect.

Sidegrade? Perhaps, that assumes that the AkBolto Prime doesn't have a unique feature itself.

I'm at work so I can't be bothered to explain or show my workings, hopefully this pic will give you some idea of my workings. (That's not an apathy thing, that's a I don't have time right now thing)

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by DeMonkey

[Rawbeard]

9 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

If you read my title, it said sidegrade, not downgrade. If you read my post, I explained the Status on Kogake. Please explain how these weapons are worth your time without the mentioning of Riven Mods. 6,000 Mastery and making my profile have less gray spots is all I can see.

I am trying to wrap my mind around what that has to do with accusation that was made against you leaving out the buffs those items recieved. I honestly couldn't care less for an akbolto or kokage prime, so I also don't care how they are worth anyone's time beyond the mastery, which is for me enough reason to justify their existence.

what is those item's MR requirement anyway?

Edited December 12, 2017 by Rawbeard

[(PSN)lhbuch]

I agree that Prime 

19 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

It is frustrating how every new Prime Access has a side grade in it. Akbolto Prime has less base damage and less fire rate than Telos Akbolto. Why? What happened to Primes being the best weapon version of their normal counterpart? Kogake Prime can only be built for status because its crit chance is lower than normal Kogake. We don't need a Tigris and Galatine Prime every Prime Access, but atleast make these weapons worth our time. They will be 50 plat in the next 72 hours given that the Telos Akbolto is much easier to obtain, and has marginally different stats. Bring back hyped up weapons like when we got Vectis Prime and Carrier Prime with Ash Prime Access, or when we got Spira Prime with Saryn. Getting Cernos Prime, Ballistica Prime, and now this Prime Access is a turn off to waiting 90 days for upgraded gear. Underrated gear should be primed, and I have no issue with Kogake (if it were a straight upgrade), but more Syndicate Sidegrades and sidegraded stats just make me want to use old gear.

I agree that Prime weapons should be better than the regular ones. 

Been better does not necessarily means powercreep. A faster reload or bigger mag might mean a better weapon without making it OP. 

 

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

The better the weapons the faster they nerf them 

[Azamagon]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Okey dokey then, just mathed it out.

AkBolto Prime has slightly superior sustained DPS on top of the increase in status chance.

Telos has higher burst, much higher burst. 200 damage per second higher. As well as the truth effect.

Sidegrade? Perhaps, that assumes that the AkBolto Prime doesn't have a unique feature itself.

I'm at work so I can't be bothered to explain or show my workings, hopefully this pic will give you some idea of my workings.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

There are 2 things that makes this incorrect

1) RoF on semiauto weapons are currently capped at 10. So, after Lethal Torrent (a staple mod, pretty much, unless you can find something better for the Telos version), they have the same RoF.

2) Critmods scale better than what might be expected, since they improve base damage too. Also, add to it that the Prime can get guaranteed crits, meaning reliable boosts to damage, it scales even better after modding than the Telos does.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Azamagon

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Azamagon said:

There are 2 things that makes this incorrect

1) RoF on semiauto weapons are currently capped at 10. So, after Lethal Torrent (a staple mod, pretty much, unless you can find something better for the Telos version), they have the same RoF.

2) Critmods better than expected, since they improve base damage too. Also, add to it that the Prime can get guaranteed crits, meaning reliable boosts to damage, it scales even better after modding than the Telos does.

It's based on their base stats, nothing more.

It's correct.

If you wanna throw in modding, go ahead. But at their base values I wouldn't personally consider the AkBolto Prime a sidegrade.

Edited December 12, 2017 by DeMonkey