would People be fine with a completly unbalanced Game?

[Scharfohr]

After reading trough the Forum I was wondering about the following:

I saw People again and again complaining that DE nerfed/balanced things and were saying something like "Why do they nerf things/attempt to balance in a PVE Game" and more along that line. ( Some People are pissed if somebody even remotly says something about balance/Nerf)

And while I agree that not every balance/rework attempt turned out fine, would People really be fine with completly unbalanced Game?

Lets say DE brings everything back that they nerfed (indefintily corpus map cleaning mag, auto turret Mesa, Map Stunning Mirage and so on) would people really be fine with such a game if DE threw out all attempts of Balance and intruduce more 1 button map cleaning?

While I am one of the Players too that abused such things from time to time (for some Missions you have to do it, thanks to the wacky Enemy Balance) i probably would drop the Game in the end it would probably become too boring for my taste. ( already turned to a more Weapon heavy Gameplay because i started to dislike ability spam)
 

Looking forward to see your Opinions on this.

[Spartan336]

What is this "Balanced Game" thing you talk about?

[krc473]

I do think so form of balance is needed in a PvE game. If a couple of things are far better than everything else, you might run into problems. I do feel like a lot of DE’s balancing is not really required though. Take the latest Gara changes: I really don’t think these were essential. They did make the frame more in keeping with others, but it was certainly not essential.

 

They could revert all the balancing without me being too concerned. But I don’t usually use the frames effected the most. I tend to pick frames based on aesthetic appeal, rather than abilities.

[(PSN)s3d_sas]

I do agree u blanching farme can good but can it be bad sometimes take ash as an example (yes ash) soooo  

I think ash after got very bad after the rework

but sometimes the rework can good just as mag corpus machine killer after the rework she became a frame that more effort to use and pretty powerful with every faction instead of just killing corpus in the entire map u can just kill them in a small area and not just corpus 

[Airwolfen]

Seems many do. Personally my belief is that game balance is a necessity. even in PvE co-op like warframe. And for that sometimes the overused downright cheap stuff has to be tuned down and low use weak stuff needs a boost. This allows for choice and prevents the meta from stagnating even though people may not like their new toy getting taken from them.

What I do have to agree with though is that DE is lacking in the aftercare department. after changes you need a period where yo look at the feedback and make changes accordingly if necessary. This is also what people usually fear when DE makes changes. So they switch to defense saying Warframe is PvE and needs no balance.

[saradonin]

I'm fine with it. It's PvE game for the most part and almost every frame can shine in certain circumstances.

I don't believe perfect balance is possible - someone will always complain his/her favourite frame is underpowered (even if it's not) or claim the other frame is overpowered leading to severe nerfs.
 

Spoiler

free Frost mains crying about how Gara took their job

Spoiler

Striving for perfect balance leads to less unique, boring classes, like what they did to SW:TOR some time ago - in the name of balace, every class received a stun, stun immunity cooldown, movement ability etc. In efect too many abilities were pretty much identical, only with different animation, stripping off the uniqueness of the spec.

Edited December 18, 2017 by saradonin

[YUNoJump]

My best guess is that the people who fundamentally disagree with nerfing in general are just so focused on progression/loot that they'd rather play a more efficient but less interesting game to get loot, than an interesting game to have fun but get a bit less loot. OG Mesa or Mirage was completely unfun when used the meta way, and nobody saying that their old forms were more fun actually believes what they're saying. People like loot, and people with a lot of time in the game might like loot so much that they'd rather get loot than have fun. 

If the game got even less balancing that it does now, it would be horrible. Nobody in any game category at all actually wants a game without balancing, it would be terrible. You might as well just open up a Word document and type "I have all the loot" if challenge is irrelevant to you. And Balancing is incomplete without nerfing, if you can only make something on-par with its peers by buffing every single other item in the game, you're A) going to have to wait incredibly long while DE continuously buffs the power of everything in the game, and B) are giving way to the most massive power creep boost ever seen. Balancing is needed because the devs can't make everything perfect; which means that when they buff things and never nerf them, they're going to overbuff a few things, and then everything else needs to be buffed again. Fundamentally hating nerfs is just an incorrect opinion, there is no sensible way for it to be feasible and still preserve challenge. 

Basically, challenge levels are required in literally any game because otherwise you might as well just get a "You Win" pop-up as soon as you open the game, and human nature requires us to balance in both directions in order to avoid horrific power creep.

[Token-]

Well, if you want balanced game then you should look at the rest of the frames/weapons/mods cuz some are still broken af like nova, mesa, ember.. but all in all im against nerfs and dont rly care about balance, since there's no balance in warframe and there will never be in the future. To many broken stuff in this game.. i mean just look at the melee damage and the word "balance" completely loses its meaning...

Edited December 18, 2017 by RoyalHaze

[NightBlitz]

there definitely needs to be some balance, otherwise things will go south,  fast.

there should never be a situation where you can say X frame is objectively better than the others across multiple fields,or even within the same field really, as the other major options should be about equal in usability for said situation and the same should apply to weapons

[Deathbricked]

If this game was unbalanced like many of the people on the forums keep trying to make it.. I'd probably quit. There wouldn't be any skill needed or fun. It was like joining a game with mirage and simulor while being slowed by a decaying dragon key. You get to play walking and collecting loot simulator while the mirages aren't even looking at the screen and just spamming buttons. 

[saradonin]

10 minutes ago, NightBlitz said:

there definitely needs to be some balance, otherwise things will go south,  fast.

there should never be a situation where you can say X frame is objectively better than the others across multiple fields,or even within the same field really, as the other major options should be about equal in usability for said situation and the same should apply to weapons

This would turn the game into horde of Rhinos with Somas P.
I think you're confusing balance with boredom.
Every frame being equal in every possible scenario is the worst thing that could happen, it'd kill the game. 
For me balance is more about every frame having it's niche, being good at something, not at everything, like so:
* frame A is objectively better than frames B and C if condition 1 is met
* frame B is objectively better than frames A and C if condition 2 is met
* frame C is objectively better than frames A and B if condition 3 is met

Edited December 18, 2017 by saradonin

[Luc1fer16]

42 minutes ago, Scharfohr said:

After reading trough the Forum I was wondering about the following:

I saw People again and again complaining that DE nerfed/balanced things and were saying something like "Why do they nerf things/attempt to balance in a PVE Game" and more along that line. ( Some People are pissed if somebody even remotly says something about balance/Nerf)

And while I agree that not every balance/rework attempt turned out fine, would People really be fine with completly unbalanced Game?

Lets say DE brings everything back that they nerfed (indefintily corpus map cleaning mag, auto turret Mesa, Map Stunning Mirage and so on) would people really be fine with such a game if DE threw out all attempts of Balance and intruduce more 1 button map cleaning?

While I am one of the Players too that abused such things from time to time (for some Missions you have to do it, thanks to the wacky Enemy Balance) i probably would drop the Game in the end it would probably become too boring for my taste. ( already turned to a more Weapon heavy Gameplay because i started to dislike ability spam)
 

Looking forward to see your Opinions on this.

People like you destroyed my boi ash bladestorm

[NightBlitz]

Just now, saradonin said:

This would turn the game into horde of Rhinos with Somas P.
I think you're confusing balance with boredom.
Every frame being equal in every possible scenario is the worst thing that could happen, it'd kill the game. 
For me balance is more about every frame having it's niche, being good at something, not at everything, like so:
* frame A is objectively better than frames B and C if condition 1 is met
* frame B is objectively better than frames A and C if condition 2 is met
* frame C is objectively better than frames A and B if condition 3 is met

no im not, for example, you have stealth, you have a few frames that all work well for it,  but it should never be the case that you can say one of them is superior than the others by any notable amount. its fine for loki to be objectively better at stealth than, say, a chroma, its not chromas job to be sneaky, but it wouldnt be fine for loki to be objctively better than ivara when it comes to stealth. in fact, the lack of balance promotes the use of the same stuff: the stuff that is far above the rest, aka the meta stuff, there should always be alternatives, which means things have to be relatively balanced

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

I would be completely fine with "unbalanced" if we could trust the rest of the community to not nuke maps while new players are present. Basically, if the new player is MR10 or less, allow them to enjoy the damn mission, step in if it looks like things are getting too rough. This is not rocket science, be considerate = happy new tenno =more tenno = more fun! Otherwise, I'm willing to put up with obnoxious Banshees and Embers, especially if I brought my Saryn or Frost Besides, in most situations where these frames can be annoying, there's usually an option to leave after five waves or minutes.

Right now I'm so angry I spent plat on Gara and now I hear from PC people that she's been nerfed. I'll eventually get over it, but I think now I will wait a month before even considering a new warfame. I like having frames for particular circumstances and Gara was my new go-to for defense missions. I just keep telling myself that it's not all about me and that the devs have to take into consideration many factors of which I'm probably unaware. /gripe

[Ada_Wong_SG]

The problem with the so called "balancing" acts often leave the game more "broken" than "balanced"
When you took out a cracked pillar but never really rebuild something.

Players who took the effort to build, potato and forma their items to 
resolve existing issues suddenly have their working tools taken away and replaced by something 
which never really seems to address the issue.

Over more and more update it gradually leave a game feels more fragmented than actually complete.

 

It is kind of like you are a chef, you finally sharpened a knife, and suddenly your boss "nerf" the knife
by dulling it and capping how sharp you can sharpen it. (but it was never as sharp as before)

and hence you have to work harder than before to get the same amount of job done.
 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Ada_Wong_SG

[Nez-Kal]

20 minutes ago, elpapitoluizito said:

People like you destroyed my boi ash bladestorm

We're all so sorry for you and your "4" Spam Win, and the fact you actually have to, I don't know, TARGET enemies with the Assassin Ninja Warframe. We feel your pain and understan-pffffffft I'm sorry, I just couldn't keep a straight face through that. I tried, I really did. xD

[(PSN)Councilor_VayHek]

NERF THE TENNO.

BUFF THE GRINEER.

THIS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OPTION.

[(PSN)supernova_girlie]

22 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

We're all so sorry for you and your "4" Spam Win, and the fact you actually have to, I don't know, TARGET enemies with the Assassin Ninja Warframe. We feel your pain and understan-pffffffft I'm sorry, I just couldn't keep a straight face through that. I tried, I really did. xD

You act as if Ash didn't have to target an enemy in previous most glorious state. I recall having to aim at, at least, one enemy to get bladestorm to kick in. The skill with Ash's bladestorm was not whether or not you aimed at an enemy, but rather knowing when to use bladestorm. I saved so many PS4 tenno on Draco back in the day. For some reason they'd choose to go frolicking while 50 bajillion eximus (eximii?) were pouring onto the map. Oh but lucky for them I pressed 4 (well, really R1 + triangle) to wi...save my squad mates. I don't know about anyone else, but I play video games for fun, not to prove that I'm better than anyone or to overcompen...well, you get the picture.

[Frosthaven83]

The problem imo right now is that they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. I personally would like to see a more refined and balanced experience, but how DE can accomplish that without massive backlash from players who have in their own minds earned their power is beyond me. And that is before you get into the sticky situation being further shaded by weapons, frames, etc being purchased with real money. Small changes here and there already do take place, sure, but a re-balance on the scale required to increase the health of the actual game would be much more destructive.

As to the point of ruining fun in a pve game, I guess that really comes down to how you define fun. Fun to me requires engaging content that pushes me to be a better person, a better player, and more skilled at the task presented. Fun for many is winding down after work and hitting 4 a few times to see lootsplosions and pretty graphics. Different strokes and all that.

The one saving grace in this game for me right now is that at minimum I can still choose to build sub-optimally to force content to be engaging again, but I imagine that is a mental road block for many (and I've been attacked for even bringing it up, so there is that).

Edited December 18, 2017 by Frosthaven83

[-_Highlander_-]

 the word Balance is abused by people that needs nerfing

 

If you all having an constructive solution aswell instead hammering everything into the ground 

that would be neato .. but no only how we all can't bair the light in someones eyes and start trashing all over the topics

 

while the rest of warframe enemys getting there buffs we getting the nerf how can you call that balance 

 

BALANCE 

-- Balance is an way of life where everything is equal .. so buff enemys after the buff on waepons ...

-- Take it from world of warcraft . how they buff enemys after they seeing how much power you can release in an heartbeat

 

Nerfing things can cause unplayable warframe's to those that are used to it .. I know i know sometimes you need to move along to new warframes .. but what if you are just depended on that favorite warframe that you are having with much fun .. as wasting the time for it ..(farming etc) 

it would be an shame to see someone time getting wasted for nothing 

[Tsardova]

Not completely, no.

 

I don't mind nerfing for the sake of balance but DE has failed to strike the right notes in getting "balance" right time and time again that I just don't care anymore.

They always overdo things that only very few of the stuffs survive the shenanigan, and even the weapons that are supposed to be buffed still suffer from either underwhelming power creep or straight up misdirected balance pass altogether.

 

Their fix to all this? Rivens.

 

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

Nerfing sucks

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, saradonin said:

This would turn the game into horde of Rhinos with Somas P.
I think you're confusing balance with boredom.
Every frame being equal in every possible scenario is the worst thing that could happen, it'd kill the game. 
For me balance is more about every frame having it's niche, being good at something, not at everything, like so:
* frame A is objectively better than frames B and C if condition 1 is met
* frame B is objectively better than frames A and C if condition 2 is met
* frame C is objectively better than frames A and B if condition 3 is met

To me balance means that any frame can be used for almost any situation if it matches your playstyle, or you adjust your playstyle to the frame. 

A DPS frame deals with enemies by dealing damage.

A CC frame incapacitates enemies, giving them and teammates more time to deal damage

A support frame empowers themselves and teammates to kill enemies. 

I think players have a problem when they choose a support frame, but really want to play DPS. They get mad when DPS frames kill faster. Or a DPS frame player wants to just avoid enemies and get jealous when a CC frame saunters through an area. 

True balance would mean that that a DPS frame needs to take a breather every now and then for defense, while the support frame or CC frame can maintain sustained, but weaker offense.

 

The other side to balance is the actual enemies themselves. That's a much harder nut to crack. Mainly because players are so divided on it. Do they want to defeat enemies with tactics, or do they prefer bullet sponges? I think this community leans more towards mindless bullet sponges than they do tactical enemies that can actually get the upper hand. Or enemies that appear complex, but essentially die just as easily.

[TotallyLagging]

the thing with balance is that we don't know what measuring stick DE are using for their balance changes

 

we don't know what is considered 'fine' and 'OP', what level should be the standard or considered end-game, etc.

 

in the end we are okay with unbalanced game because that's what the game already is

[(XBOX)BigLithuanian]

21 minutes ago, TotallyLagging said:

the thing with balance is that we don't know what measuring stick DE are using for their balance changes

 

we don't know what is considered 'fine' and 'OP', what level should be the standard or considered end-game, etc.

 

in the end we are okay with unbalanced game because that's what the game already is

Everything has different uses so really how could anything be unbalanced. It's like comparing Chroma to Trintity. A Trinity main may be pissed that a Chroma may do more damage but that is what Chroma is for.

I am sure there are unbalanced things but not necessarily in terms of weapons for example Arca Plasmor is good against enemies who are weak against radiation but not the infested compared to The Ignis unless you mod it differently. Does this mean the Ignis is more Powerful than the Plasmor and needs a nerf? No it does not.

Edited December 18, 2017 by (XB1)BigLithuanian
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