Arca Plasmor Change

[UncleWalrus]

@GeoffFromAccounting More or less, yeah.

My issue isn't even with future proofing in and of itself. Derp things will happen, and, on occasion, the derp is glorious and enhances gameplay. (Speed Nova, for instance.)
It's not even testing. DE have been testing things a lot more than the used to. Speaking of Mag, remember that one update that tried to make Polarize less braindead by making it Line of Sight, but because warframes don't have LoS to themselves, Mag couldn't polarize her own shields anymore? That was truly stupid and would have taken a twenty second test to see. But nothing comparatively stupid has happened in recent memory IMO. They are improving on that front.

My issue is symptomatic fixes that fail to resolve underlying issues while also disrupting unrelated behavior.

 

This without even bringing into question the earnestness of a "We forgot that all weapons can headshot and left this behavior unchanged for four months." justification.

[UncleWalrus]

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

The augment works as intended for every other weapon.

It doesn't. Amprex breaks it wide open. I have demonstrated this in my OP in another thread, which you posted in without reading.
As do presumably to other headshot-happy weapons and beam weapons in general.

 

8 hours ago, peterc3 said:

People seem to have these urgent, dire problems with the game, nerfs they find dangerous. What do these mean when they keep playing the game?

It's not the nerf itself I find dangerous, but the way it was implemented, since it suggests an unwillingness to address underlying issues and a preference for slapdash, symptomatic approaches.

[Zeyez]

10 hours ago, Cytobel said:

The simple conculsion is this:  Arca Plasmor is NOT A STATUS WEAPON, first because the only group-targeting status procs aren't tremendously useful later on (armor and health scaling kill them), and secondly because the low RoF, long reload, and limited ammo pool leave you with little option but to target large packs in the hopes of wringing as many procs out of each shot as possible.  It's beam weapons and status-per-second all over again.

its an status weapon, but with different vision from what you know as "status shotgun"

- on start, status weapon was any kind of weapon that can deals massive amount of procs on single target, which because of the traits of each damage type, like Corrosive, Slash, Gas... the ones that can stack with itself, will benefit the most from it, this is why Tigris Prime, Grakata, Zenith.... is called like that, plus they are older weapons recognized like that

- beam weapons... aren't status weapon... or even good weapon, at all (i'm overreacting, and ignoring Ignis for this comment, but look at the points)

they can proc, but its low amount... against only one target per time, almost all of those weapon can't survive without its modifier, like bouncing effect from Atomos and Amprex, explosives of Quanta (Vandal) or the bonus damage + enlargement of Nukor , but even then, they can't compete against single damage weapons (Sicarus Prime) or the former status weapons ((Prisma) Grakata) on their areas because they aren't designed for that

- Arca Plasmor lives on other reality, recent, of status weapons: it can deals massive amount of procs... on different targets, which makes damage types that can't stack with itself (Blast, Impact, Viral, Radiation...) worth to use, plus, since this weapon has low amount of projectiles, but high damage on each one, Gas procs can be really deadly, because it can AoE with itself. It doesn't matter if i can't proc gas on everyone, but if one or another get gas proc, the enemies nearby will receive additional damage while close together, something that Slash damage can't do)

 

your definition tha Arca Plasmor isn't made to kill single targets its right, isn't made against armor, isn't made for Corrosive damage/proc... and this weapon don't need to be changed for that, in fact, its better stay like it is now

if someone needs power against single target, pick another shotgun/weapon, not this, or maybe switch for an secondary/meele that can handle it

Edited January 28, 2018 by Zeyez
like this topic, everything in the world can be changed, it just needs the right words... and the left ones too

[UncleWalrus]

@Cytobel @Kayll My mate has given me an excellent hypothesis for the multiple damage popup issue. (Which, I will admit, I have NEVER seen occur before the "fix".)

Its most likely the way hit detection is coded: I'm assuming the game checks, several times per second, whether the projectile has dealt damage to the enemy yet. Since it dealt 0 damage, it lets it deal damage. Which is 0. So it does no damage. So the game checks whether the projectile etc etc.

 

[Kayll]

Where did this Harrow reasoning even come from?

The Arca Plasmor still procs arcanes that require you to headshot the enemy,so I think its pretty safe to say it still works with Harrows augment.
I'd test this myself but seeing how its currently dealing 0 damage on headshots,and the augment requires you to kill something its not possible atm.

@UncleWalrus
It's clear something wonky is going on with the Plasmor and headshots,which is why they attempted they change they did,and your friend probably just never has noticed it before in the heat of battle, since the bug occurs on very specific spots.

 

[UncleWalrus]

5 minutes ago, Kayll said:

Where did this Harrow reasoning even come from?

The Arca Plasmor still procs arcanes that require you to headshot the enemy,so I think its pretty safe to say it still works with Harrows augment.
I'd test this myself but seeing how its currently dealing 0 damage on headshots,and the augment requires you to kill something its not possible atm.

Correlation, mostly. It was fine before, now it's suddenly not fine when this other thing came out. We shall have to see, whenever they get around to changing that x0 headshot multiplier into an x1, which was prolly how this mess happened in the first place.

5 minutes ago, Kayll said:

@UncleWalrus
It's clear something wonky is going on with the Plasmor and headshots,which is why they attempted they change they did,and your friend probably just never has noticed it before in the heat of battle, since the bug occurs on very specific spots.

Also, both me and him pretty much mained the AP ever since it came out. I've used it to pop single enemies plenty of times, and had been using Vicious Spread, so shots would go all over the place, even above the target. I don't recall it ever having done that.

Which, tho, brings me back to the issue of bandaid fixing. If the AP is somehow multi-hitting on headshots (which they made no mention of), why not fix that behavior instead, leave the headshot bonus as it is, and make it behave completely normally, like every other gun does? It just boggles the mind.

 

@OvisCaedo Excellent observation. It does seem to not belch out that many numbers every time it lands a grazing hit and deals damage.

Edited January 28, 2018 by UncleWalrus

[OvisCaedo]

yyyeah, I'm pretty sure the wild spray of numbers is actually something NEW since DE's "fix". Something that completely blatant isn't going to have been entirely unnoticed for four months of a reasonably popular weapon's use. Walrus's theory about it continuing to check because it hasn't dealt damage yet seems pretty plausible, especially since in your own image there the spray of numbers is MUCH smaller any time it actually registers a bodyshot and deals damage.

[Man_In_Suitcase]

10 hours ago, TotallyLagging said:

i'm more miffed that they changed it because of harrow than a genuine balance change

Me too. This rebalance feels more like a rushed out nerf, before players could catch on it being vastly op. However DE could of given the plasmor a 'soft nerf' meaning that with the plasmor paired with lasting covenant, headshot damage would remain as is now. Without harrow's aug would see the plasmor back to pre-nerf. 

It feels DE give little thought when rolling this out, and was easier for them just to outright nerf it instead of considering any other options, what a shame. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Man_In_Suitcase
Posting on forums using phone is true endgame.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Kayll:

So I'm assuming all this arguing has been for nothing,as pretty much everyone has been wrong.
When DE said it was hitting multiple headshots, they meant just that.

Upon testing headshots with the Arca Plasmor (currently bugged and dealing 0 damage on them),unmodded with no multishot would hit a target over 10+ times sometimes depending on where you aimed the head. If it was doing this before when headshots DID do damage, then clearly the weapon has been doing way way WAY more damage than was intended, so perhaps once they get down to this problem, maybe you guys will get your headshots back.

Here is an example.

https://gfycat.com/ConsiderateChiefAardvark

(Edit, Oh god its even worse with multishot, so many numbers pop up the other numbers despawn cause theres too many.)

I wouldn't show a completely bugged and broken code to prove an argument. I do see it shows lots of bugged "0"s. But it never dealt more than 1 - 3 (depending on multishot) numbers. It's bugged and everyone knows it. Don't think it dealt multiple 5-digits with no multishot built in because that never happened. There's a reason no one called out plasmor to be op.

Edited January 28, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[Kayll]

@UncleWalrus

"The Arca Plasmor received a change yesterday where headshots no longer deal bonus damage. The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance, but with wide wave projectiles and inherent punch-through, a single shot could result in multiple headshots."

Maybe they worded it wrong? Idk, but it does mention multiple headshots and there is a gif I posted showing it doing multiple headshots, just in a different way than what would original be presumed.
It COULD just be a coincidence, but who knows.

@OvisCaedo @IceColdHawk
The gif I posted was an unmodded Arca Plasmor, so it had no multishot so still at best its only hitting 3 times when it should be one, and at worst its hitting the target 10+ times.

[IceColdHawk]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Kayll:

The gif I posted was an unmodded Arca Plasmor, so it had no multishot so still at best its only hitting 3 times when it should be one, and at worst its hitting the target 10+ times.

And i just told you that your .gif is completely misleading and wrong. It shows so many numbers due to it being outbugged after DE's plasmor nerf. Would you have tested it PRIOR to the nerf, you would only see 1 number upon headshot. 

[MirageKnight]

Given the fact that lots of things that have been borked in this game have taken months if not years to fix (this is a fact), I can actually see the devs only noticing NOW that the Plasmor wasn't working as they intended it to. Their preliminary testing process doesn't strike me as being thorough enough if things like this can slip through the cracks and some issues that escape internal testing definitely take way too long to fix. 

That said...you people need to stop with the self-righteous, melodramatic hyperbole about how the Plasmor has been completely ruined now and how DE has deliberately screwed everyone over with what it obviously a god-damn FIX. What I'm seeing with all these "revert the Plasmor nerf" threads is a bunch of spoiled, paranoid screaming children and you need to grow up and get over this AND yourselves.

This is not game-breaking. What you entitled whiners don't want to realize is that Plasmor is still great at its intended job: hitting multiple enemies over a wide area like a friggin' 18-wheeler.

God's teeth - I haven't seen so much player-sourced FUD and saber-rattling since DE FINALLY addressed long-standing issues with the Tonkor and Simulor.

On a side note...I'm willing to bet that you all wouldn't be making such a fuss if the Plasmor had been released without a headshot multiplier. You'd still be calling the Plasmor a fun weapon that can melt mobs. Right now you're all are just pissed off because you can't exploit an unintended feature and feel extra powerful anymore.

To answer the argument "MY Plasmor got nerfed yet <x> goes untouched because reason" You know what? <x> should be addressed too. But saying that the Plasmor change should be reverted because <x> hasn't been addressed yet is just short-sighted and nonsensical.

 

11 minutes ago, UncleWalrus said:

since it suggests an unwillingness to address underlying issues and a preference for slapdash, symptomatic approaches.

This I will absolutely agree with. DE does have a terrible tendency of band-aiding things and treating symptoms, rather than addressing core issues. They also have an annoying tendency of putting things on the shelf and then forgetting about them, addressing problems and balance concerns in a very piecemeal fashion, and so on.

DE's biggest problem is a severe lack of focus, particularly with regard to designing and balancing systems and testing things they plan on releasing. The fact that patch notes are typically full of fixes and yet there are still dozens of items that still need addressing only serves to underscore my point.

If DE is going to release a weapon that does things in a particular way, they need to make doubly sure it performs as intended BEFORE releasing the damn thing. Then we can avoid raging S#&amp;&#036;storms like what we have now with the Plasmor.

I get that Warframe is made by people that aren't perfect...but dear God they need to quit rushing stuff out the door.

[UncleWalrus]

@IceColdHawk @Kayll

Assuming for the moment that the issue actually was a real multihit bug, (which I doubt) the question still remains, why not fix that instead of jury-rigging three quarters of a workaround on short notice?

[IceColdHawk]

Gerade eben schrieb UncleWalrus:

@IceColdHawk @Kayll

Assuming for the moment that the issue actually was a real multihit bug, (which I doubt) the question still remains, why not fix that instead of jury-rigging three quarters of a workaround on short notice?

No we don't go to assume that -_- Could we please stop on spreading further misinformation? The fact that this went unnoticed for over a page almost cringed me away, seriously.

Okay, aside from that. Assuming something more realistic, which is not only an assumption but based on DE information an actual fact. The problem being arca plasmor easily getting headshots with no efforts when it wasn't intended due to arca plasmor hitting multiple enemies etc. So, how about making it so you can still get headshots but actually need to be precise, just like with other weapons? As in, reduce the hitbox for accounting headshots so you don't get headshots for when you aim over the head but when you aim AT the head. How about that instead of removing a whole big chunk of damage potential?

[Kayll]

4 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

And i just told you that your .gif is completely misleading and wrong. It shows so many numbers due to it being outbugged after DE's plasmor nerf. Would you have tested it PRIOR to the nerf, you would only see 1 number upon headshot. 

That's a huge coincidence if the bug was just introduced,and seeing how wildly off target you have to aim sometimes to get this to occur.
But alas, I can't go back in time to check if this issue was present before,would be harder to realize since it if it did occur it just hit the target till dead and then stopped happening.
Maybe it is wrong,but its still and issue to be fixed

I mean most of the people in this thread didn't really seem to test the mechanics of the weapon and are just throwing around baseless, or "my friend said...", so I'm going to take everything said with a grain of salt.

 

 

5 minutes ago, UncleWalrus said:

@IceColdHawk @Kayll

Assuming for the moment that the issue actually was a real multihit bug, (which I doubt) the question still remains, why not fix that instead of jury-rigging three quarters of a workaround on short notice?

You got me.
Weirder things have happened.

[Ragnarok160]

12 hours ago, peterkas said:

"The Arca Plasmor received a change yesterday where headshots no longer deal bonus damage. The Arca Plasmor was designed to hit multiple targets with a high-status chance, but with wide wave projectiles and inherent punch-through, a single shot could result in multiple headshots. With it being a shotgun, it was never intended to behave as a precision weapon, and the bonus pushed it too far out of that mold."

Yeah of course, now tell me the advantage to use the "good weapon designed to hit multiple target with a high-status chance", if i can take a melee weapon to does better than this? yeah, we no have problem with 400% range melee weapons with full 9999999 red crit dmg with headshot enabled, but arca plasmor can't do headshots.

High reload, low fire rate, low range, no headshot, yeah you've created a junk weapon, congrats!

 

Let's spin 2 win!!!

its the balance change no body wanted

[MirageKnight]

6 hours ago, peterkas said:

"OMFG this new harrow mod is OP with the Arca plasmor, hmm... yeah, i see the problem, let's nerf the Arca Plasmor!!"

More like "Whoops - this thing can headshot? That's not supposed to happen. How the heck did that slip past QA testing a few weeks ago? Well let's patch this up and hope the forums don't erupt in a torrent of fire and salt..."

*torrent of fire and salt ensues*

Fortunately, when using the Plasmor as intended, it still plows through mobs like a 18-wheeler. Still, if this is what they intended for the Plasmor, it should been released like that. So much for proper testing...

Edited January 28, 2018 by MirageKnight

[(PSN)vl_Monarch_lv]

To be fair, it doesn't take much potency away from the Plasmor.

Just... please DE, don't touch the Corinth.

Edited January 28, 2018 by (PS4)vl_Monarch_lv

[aligatorno]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)vl_Monarch_lv said:

To be fair, it doesn't take much potency away from the Plasmor.

Just... please DE, don't touch the Corinth.

Why would they nerf Corinth? It's only mid-tier, nowhere near the top tier shotguns like Tigris Prime, Sancti Tigris, Kohm etc

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Kayll said:

Where did this Harrow reasoning even come from?

The Arca Plasmor still procs arcanes that require you to headshot the enemy,so I think its pretty safe to say it still works with Harrows augment.
I'd test this myself but seeing how its currently dealing 0 damage on headshots,and the augment requires you to kill something its not possible atm.

@UncleWalrus
It's clear something wonky is going on with the Plasmor and headshots,which is why they attempted they change they did,and your friend probably just never has noticed it before in the heat of battle, since the bug occurs on very specific spots.

 

I have no idea how you do that, i simply cannot manage to do the same. At max i get 4 of the zeros and 8-12 with multishot but no more.

[Jicematoro]

27 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Why would they nerf Corinth? It's only mid-tier, nowhere near the top tier shotguns like Tigris Prime, Sancti Tigris, Kohm etc

I mean, so was Plasmor, being Hi-Mid at best.

[aligatorno]

16 minutes ago, Jicematoro said:

I mean, so was Plasmor, being Hi-Mid at best.

Plasmor was top tier because of how it functioned. Innate radiation damage, wide aoe plasma, high damage, easy crowd headshotting. It's not a staple eidolon hunting weapon for nothing. 

While I do love the weapon myself, it was still a braindead weapon that required nothing more than pointing and shotting to kill whole groups. Think Synoid Simulor or Tonkor. 

Edited January 28, 2018 by aligatorno

[rudman88]

get used to it. If a gun is top tier, they will tweaked it

If not how they entice you with new weapons ?

So it will forever be :

new weapon strong -> ( nerf/ change / tweak ) = normal / weak

and it will repeat the cycle xd

[(PSN)DBR87]

I want this change reverted before it hits console. It baffles my mind why the Arca Plasmor is the only shotgun that does not receive a 2x damage bonus with headshots. It's slow to fire, literally can't shoot past 30 meters without Zephyr, and has one of the slowest projectile travel times in the game. Most shotguns with an average spread can headshot groups of enemies. Every weapon with punchthrough can headshot crowds of enemies win one bullet. Sure, Arca Plasmor has innate ENEMY ONLY punchthrough but that's offset by the fact it does NO DAMAGE to ANYTHING past 30 meters. That's what keeps it from being a precision weapon, the fact it can't hit targets past 30 meters unless you mod it or a Warframe to make it do so. Explosive weapons can score headshots with their projectiles and they aren't precision weapons either. If a person takes the time to aim for the head, they should be reward with bonus damage. Especially given Arca Plasmor is a crit shotgun and crit weapons thrive off headshot multipliers. Arca Plasmor was not vastly outperforming V Hek or Tigris Prime. If it can't take advantage of headshots what does that mean for a shotgun like Kohm?

Drakgoon has charged based damage of 900 with punchthrough that can score multiple head shots and has no damage fall off. Kohm is a rapid fire shotgun with innate punchthrough of 1.5, more than enough to puncture multiple heads. It's fire rate allows it to shred armor with status procs and slash procs. Kohm is functionally a better shotgun now because at least it doesn't have a 30 meter range limit and can stake advantage of headshot multipliers.

Please DE, I don't want to see Tigris Prime, Kohm, or Drakgoon nerfed because Arca Plasmor can't deal bonus damage on headshots, but this change makes Arca Plasmor less appealing as a weapon choice. Again, Kohm can put out status effects far quicker then Arca Plasmor and can destroy groups all while taking advantage of headshots. Vaykor Hek and Corinth can put out farm more crit damage because they can take advantage of headshots. Please don't nerf such a well designed and loved shotgun like Arca Plasmor.

I doubt anyone though the weapon was OP.

[Mokkun108]

Is maiming strike still additive? I took a 3 month break from the game, coming back now and what is it I'm seeing? Even more critical boost with that gladiator set. But than I remember the glorious days of Naramon shadow step with telos boltace and maiming strike, those were the days; spin, spin, spin, slash them, gas them, jump and spin.

Telos boltace got nerfed, maiming remained untouched, imho maiming strike should be made multiplicative. Atterax is just going to be replaced with next best alternative, should it be nerfed.

Them scoliac rivens anyone?