I don't want scaling rewards

[Hypernaut1]

3 minutes ago, Sonicbullitt said:

 

word,  the endless mode is completely optional, it is meant to be optional/supplementary, so I do not get why anyone would be against the option when you aren't forced to do them, again the mode is not meant to replace the kuva siphons, its the reason as to why we still have the kuva siphons. So I cannot understand why this is anything but a positive, its a win win situation.

i dont want a meta built around staying 40+ minutes. I like endless Kuva missions. Ive even played it past 20, but i didn't feel like i HAD to play past 20. thats the difference. 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

24 minutes ago, Wildcardgsx said:

I Think people are missing the point of Endless Kuva, The rewards should scale, regardless of what we want. PERIOD.

You get Less Kuva doing 20-30+ minutes of Endless Kuva

Versus

Doing regular Kuva Floods and Siphons.

 

Just Because you dont have the attention span or cant be bothered, to have a frame built and weapons that can support these endless missions just shows how casual 90% of this community is. I for one want Warframe to Give Us Some Kind Of Endgame, Personally and IMHO I want to be challenged and have a challenge. So far all DE has been doing is catering to people like this OP and Im not only tired of it, Im bored of it.

 

While I get that DE has to basically cater and tailor the hell out of its game to keep new players coming in and staying interested, There is nothing on the back end to keep Veterans from reaching that MR and then leaving because they have literally done everything! How many times can you do the same thing over and over again before you're bored the living hell out of? 

Think about this; I did an Endless Kuva for 30minutes, eventually Life Support pods stopped f'ing dropping, on top of having to try to figure out the paths for this tile set. i GOT 6400 Kuva out of it. That Is Horrible when I can do Floods and Siphons for 10-15minutes and make double or triple that. Doing the same 30minutes on Floods and Siphons with a booster getting 30,000Kuva!  Which got spent on maybe 3rivens.

For the amount of time that I have spent playing this game, which just over 3100+ hours recorded just on steam having registered back in 09 is not inconsiderable. Has been one big grind to grind even more. We grind endless amounts of resources of so many different types just to get weapons and frames so we can grind even more resources!? I mean comon! And now finally in 2018 we can now farm Kuva in the Kuva Fortress ... wow who would of thunk it? Guys comon you can do so much better then this, I know you can you've shown us you can. This is compounded by the fact that this Endless Survival on Kuva Fortress doesn't act like a normal survival, 20-30 minutes in and you cant find a life support pod! what the hell is with this? I thought this was supposed to be Endless? So now your basically forcing a new meta and you have to bring a Desecrate Nekro, but again wants the point if its easier and faster to just do normal siphons and floods?

[DatDarkOne]

1 hour ago, DrBorris said:

Like, what if Kuva Fortress missions all dropped... wait for it... Kuva.

 

And if DE is worried about people getting burned out on the Fortress, they shouldn't, because Siphons still exist.

Having Kuva in the Kuva fortress was my original argument waaaay back when.   

[(PSN)robotwars7]

7 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i dont want a meta built around staying 40+ minutes. I like endless Kuva missions. Ive even played it past 20, but i didn't feel like i HAD to play past 20. thats the difference. 

if a meta appears, nobody is forcing you to be a part of it. if you want to stay 20 mins or less, fine. but some of us want to go past that, and be appropriately rewarded for doing so. if I'm fighting more enemies, tougher enemies, and juggling life support for longer, why shouldn't I get more Kuva as time progresses?

this is why we need individual extraction for Survival modes, so that endurance runners aren't forced to leave sooner than they want, and those who want to leave sooner aren't being dragged along for minutes on end, unhappy because they can't leave without forfeiting rewards. individual extraction would solve these problems, it would filter out the two types of survival players without penalising either! why DE won't add this is baffling to me.

[Wildcardgsx]

I know this is really out there but;

 

Edited March 29, 2018 by Wildcardgsx

[Phatose]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

this is why we need individual extraction for Survival modes, so that endurance runners aren't forced to leave sooner than they want, and those who want to leave sooner aren't being dragged along for minutes on end, unhappy because they can't leave without forfeiting rewards. individual extraction would solve these problems, it would filter out the two types of survival players without penalising either! why DE won't add this is baffling to me.

It sounds good in theory, but runs right into a bunch of practical problems.  We'll ignore host migration, but there's still going to be an issue for the endurance runners who find themselves down a team member with no possibility of replacing that member. 

[DeMonkey]

1 minute ago, Phatose said:

It sounds good in theory, but runs right into a bunch of practical problems.  We'll ignore host migration, but there's still going to be an issue for the endurance runners who find themselves down a team member with no possibility of replacing that member. 

Allow inviting, but not public joining after 5 minutes?

I mean, I can't really think of any major issues that would arise from that, although I'm sure someone'll think of one.

[Phatose]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Allow inviting, but not public joining after 5 minutes?

I mean, I can't really think of any major issues that would arise from that, although I'm sure someone'll think of one.

Problematic.  Say there's a reward in rotation C everybody wants.  So I start a mission, invite only, run 15 minutes solo, invite 3 clan members for the last 5 minutes.  Afterwards, I go run other missions while one of them does the same thing and invites me, and so forth.  With the clan as a whole doing it, a reward that should take 20 minutes ends up taking a little over 5.

[Sonicbullitt]

34 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

i dont want a meta built around staying 40+ minutes. I like endless Kuva missions. Ive even played it past 20, but i didn't feel like i HAD to play past 20. thats the difference. 

How do you know there will be a meta around it ? Even if there is, how does it hurt you, if you are not a participant of it ? If players want to minmax and powergame let them, as long as they aren't harming other's experiences I do not see the problem with this. Again, its optional. Ideally the scaling would reward more over time, eventually rewarding more than the siphons, with a cap to it of course at a certain point. 

While alternatively the siphons instead reward more kuva for short bursts of time played. Honestly you shouldn't be playing endless missions in the first place, if you don't want to play past 20 minutes to get more kuva. This is what the siphon missions are for, high amounts of kuva for a short about of time played, how can you not understand this ? 

Honestly what it sounds like, is that you want is a replacement for kuva siphons, that have none of its downsides, with rewards equal to if not slightly lower, so that you can do 20 minutes or so leave, rinse and repeat. Which in this case would equal to 40+ minutes of rewards, since you want the difficulty to start at 20 minutes+. This is in stark comparison to us long time players and others who want a challenge with a reward to match, that want both modes to be viable, with each one having pros and cons.

There is factually no downside to having scaling endless missions balanced and with limits along side the kuva siphon missions, anyone else declaring otherwise is either ignorant, wilfully ignorant or selfish for not wanting others to have it, perhaps both.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Sonicbullitt

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Phatose said:

Problematic.  Say there's a reward in rotation C everybody wants.  So I start a mission, invite only, run 15 minutes solo, invite 3 clan members for the last 5 minutes.  Afterwards, I go run other missions while one of them does the same thing and invites me, and so forth.  With the clan as a whole doing it, a reward that should take 20 minutes ends up taking a little over 5.

Eh, tbh, for Kuva Survival specifically we could do away with rotation rewards for all I care. No one's going to be going there for anything except Kuva, and I'm sure many will trade the generic rotation rewards for the ability to invite their friends.

[(XBOX)Solargeo]

8 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Its a double edged sword reguardless of what is implemented.

1. If it doesnt scale, there is no meaning to stay.
2. If it scales people who want to leave early wont be able to unless at least 1 other person agrees, and it might screw over those who want to make "endurance runs" for those rewards.

This applies to any of the endless game modes, not just Kuva.

A solution is if they add an option to extract individually like in Defence/Interception, but it runs into another problem: Less teammates = Lower odds of survival/success. Then we go back to point 2.

If they wanted endurance runs why go Public matchmaking ?

[DatDarkOne]

23 minutes ago, (XB1)Solargeo said:

If they wanted endurance runs why go Public matchmaking ?

You know, I have asked this time and time again over the last two years.  I haven't gotten an answer yet that makes any kind of sense.  

[(XBOX)ReadingFire229]

1 hour ago, Wildcardgsx said:

 

 

Just Because you dont have the attention span or cant be bothered, to have a frame built and weapons that can support these endless missions just shows how casual 90% of this community is. I for one want Warframe to Give Us Some Kind Of Endgame, Personally and IMHO I want to be challenged and have a challenge. So far all DE has been doing is catering to people like this OP and Im not only tired of it, Im bored of it.

And the funny thing about this is the new player experience is still bad

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Solargeo said:

If they wanted endurance runs why go Public matchmaking ?

Dont question PUG logic, you will be saner that way.

45 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You know, I have asked this time and time again over the last two years.  I haven't gotten an answer yet that makes any kind of sense.  

See above.

 

[(XBOX)Solargeo]

20 minutes ago, Kaotyke said:

Dont question PUG logic, you will be saner that way.

See above.

 

As many people state let people who want to leave after the first 5 mins and not make everyone else have to leave to

[devildevil21]

I'm not following your logic at all op.

 

So you're saying that if the enemies are scaling and the difficulty gets increassigly more difficult, we should get the same rewards instead of better rewards?

 

That... doesn't make sense.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

2 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:

I'm not following your logic at all op.

 

So you're saying that if the enemies are scaling and the difficulty gets increassigly more difficult, we should get the same rewards instead of better rewards?

 

That... doesn't make sense.

Sadly, I think sympathy rather than sense was the goal....

[Vox_Preliator]

I'd like to ask one more time:

What's with the change of heart against missions that start harder and are more rewarding rather than locking both of those behind an unskippable twenty plus minutes of comparative nothing?  I think this is the first time I've seen it suggested without being almost universally supported.

Yeah, Endless missions are optional.  But I don't want to have to wade through easy, unrewarding content for round after round after round every single time I want to push myself.

It really, really, really feels like 80% of the posts in this thread didn't actually understand what OP was asking for or read nothing but the title.

[dudefaceguy]

56 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I don't want to have to wade through easy, unrewarding content for round after round after round every single time I want to push myself.

Yes. DE has a number in mind for how much Kuva they want us to be able to farm. Apparently it's about 9000 per hour, because this is how much you get if you do all siphons and floods, then spend the rest of the hour in survival. They could have made the Kuva reward start at 100 and scale up to 250, so that the amount farmed in 40 minutes was the same. Instead, they decided to make the Kuva start at a reasonable amount and just stay there, so that players aren't punished for extracting, or if something happens to ruin the run halfway through.

Infinitely scaling rewards are just bad game design in a game like Warframe that has to balance an economy. The amount of Kuva farmable per hour affects riven prices, so they would need to cap the reward at their intended farming level. This means that in order to have scaling, it would have to start below the optimal level and scale up to it, wasting players' time. I would much rather have it start at the optimal level to begin with.

Scaling rewards don't give extra rewards to people who stay in missions for a long time; that would break the game and DE's business model. They just punish people who don't stay in missions for a long time.

By all means, give us challenging content with good rewards, but don't make me wait 40 minutes to get to them.

[boysenbeary]

Maybe it could be like the index

You chose the difficulty, and the more difficult the mission you make, the higher rewards you get

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, Vox_Preliator said:

I'd like to ask one more time:

What's with the change of heart against missions that start harder and are more rewarding rather than locking both of those behind an unskippable twenty plus minutes of comparative nothing?  I think this is the first time I've seen it suggested without being almost universally supported.

Yeah, Endless missions are optional.  But I don't want to have to wade through easy, unrewarding content for round after round after round every single time I want to push myself.

It really, really, really feels like 80% of the posts in this thread didn't actually understand what OP was asking for or read nothing but the title.

Because one does not exclude the other and they really are two separate issues.

You want to skip to the point where enemy difficulty is the challenge and rewarded accordingly. I want to go for as long as I can possibly go in a mission where time is the challenge and want to be rewarded for that time. Which means I do not want to skip things....because skipping things would be antithetical to my goal. 

We both want good rewards...but we are both playing different games. 

So when OP says he doesn't want scaling rewards...then he is not offering suggestions in a way I can support it because he acts against my interests even though I have nothing against him getting harder missions and good rewards. 

[Neutricks]

14 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't want to be forced to stay more than 20 minutes in one mission in the name of efficiency. If people truly wanted to play for 40 minutes they can, it's not like you don't get rewarded. 

I think what people are really asking for is challenge and increased rewards. What I would prefer are survival missions that start off at wave 20 intensity with increased rewards. 

 

The simple solution is to allow individual players to leave when they want and keep rewards.  You'll be happy and those that want increased rewards will be happy.

[Wildcardgsx]

3 hours ago, (XB1)ReadingFire229 said:

And the funny thing about this is the new player experience is still bad

See the thing Is A "New Player" Isn't going to be doing a Mission on Kuva Fortress, there's just no way. You should be atleast MR 10-14 before you even have the Kuva Fort to goto to begin with. The amount of Questing alone that you have to do to get there.

A new player should be more focused on Unlocking the "Star Map" thats every single tile set/planet/ and mission in Navigation while your doing that You should be ranking up frames, getting resources to get new frames, farming some bosses along the way to get new frames to begin with and then getting the Two Main Story Quests done which are requirements for junctions to even get to the Fortress.

You Should Not be nit picking at content that is more then likely beyond your level or ability to currently do, Nor should you be putting idea's out there that will/can/could potentially Hurt Not Only The Veterans But You When You Get To That Point In The Game.

We as veterans have literally nothing to do in the game! Dont you get that? We do the same thing over and over again that we have been doing for the past 20+ Mastery Ranks, There are players that are leaving left and right because the only thing left to do is Fashion Frame. Instead we have the opportunity here to make an Endless Mission that is actually worth a damn and this OP (and others like this) are basically trying to ruin it?

[(XBOX)ReadingFire229]

58 minutes ago, Wildcardgsx said:

See the thing Is A "New Player" Isn't going to be doing a Mission on Kuva Fortress, there's just no way. You should be atleast MR 10-14 before you even have the Kuva Fort to goto to begin with. The amount of Questing alone that you have to do to get there.

A new player should be more focused on Unlocking the "Star Map" thats every single tile set/planet/ and mission in Navigation while your doing that You should be ranking up frames, getting resources to get new frames, farming some bosses along the way to get new frames to begin with and then getting the Two Main Story Quests done which are requirements for junctions to even get to the Fortress.

You Should Not be nit picking at content that is more then likely beyond your level or ability to currently do, Nor should you be putting idea's out there that will/can/could potentially Hurt Not Only The Veterans But You When You Get To That Point In The Game.

We as veterans have literally nothing to do in the game! Dont you get that? We do the same thing over and over again that we have been doing for the past 20+ Mastery Ranks, There are players that are leaving left and right because the only thing left to do is Fashion Frame. Instead we have the opportunity here to make an Endless Mission that is actually worth a damn and this OP (and others like this) are basically trying to ruin it?

No, no you misunderstand my point in bringing that up was to actually agree with the other person not op de has catered to the new players without fixing their starting point in the game which is a what I thought was funny because its backwards.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

2 hours ago, dudefaceguy said:

Infinitely scaling rewards are just bad game design in a game like Warframe that has to balance an economy.

Scaling rewards don't give extra rewards to people who stay in missions for a long time; that would break the game and DE's business model. 

By all means, give us challenging content with good rewards, but don't make me wait 40 minutes to get to them.

As I understand it (having zero practical experience with the mode yet) this mission has a diminished return....where the amount of Kuva rewarded per hour becomes less as the drop rate of life support falls and stations need to be sacrificed as well as the stations becoming more vulnerable and more prone to destruction. So we need to keep that in mind as well. 

Yet I agree with your first point. Infinite scaling is just a bad idea. Some people have done 3 hour runs of survival...and while that is different than this mission type...that would completely ruin the economy and break the game. 

This however does not mean scaling itself is bad. It means infinite scaling is bad. It also doesn't mean that there are not other methods to make staying in the mission longer rewarding for endurance run without breaking the economy. 

If scaling could not be done...a Kuva cash could be added to the reward pool for the mission...or even replace the reward pool. Finishing a rotation would reward or offer an additional chance at extra Kuva. An amount that increases with the rotation....before the cycle repeating. A system we already have everywhere else. 
 

Edited March 30, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76