Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[zWhiteKz]

1st Thanks [DE]Sheldon for impliment this mode it a good change of wind for us "Kuva farmer" to have a mission to stay in one place rather than just jump from node to node. Also DE already clear on the point kuva endless won't be scale due to this is not a mode to replace Flood whatsoever and we all know how bad the system "void key" is when talking about scaling reward *void key flash back intensify*. And i have high hope that DE will think of a mode in the future which we can challenge ourself rather than doing endure run and we all know endure run is not CHALLENGE u want to know why? it easy because we use "cheeze" tactic to do it ( using whip through wall, zenistar "spinning around", banshee spam sonar,....), that just fighting will the math of scaling and scaling in Warframe at this point is not a good system by far

So here is my math for endless kuva to back it up:

we all know that right now endless reward 200/min (each tower need 1 min to provide 200 kuva)

and siphon reward 550 - 700 (avg 625) flood reward 1100 - 1400 (avg 1250)

now let say in the perfect world we run siphon/flood mission with only 4 mins ( some can do faster than this and some can do slower than this and ofc we all know how long can assinate mission can be and also the fact that some planet make it hard to find kuva in aka CERES / ICE PLANET tileset but for the math we will say it 4 mins)

so the avg kuva u get per min is:

Siphon 625/4 = 156.25/min

Endless 200/min

Flood 1250/4 = 312.5/min

now we look back at endless and the kuva/min is 200/min which sit somewhat in middle between siphon and flood just like [DE]Sheldon said and this is good

also keep in mind that each hour we only have 1 flood and 5 siphon up at one time

after seeing this u will think "Huh endless is much more than siphon then i just gonna do endless than siphon then". This way of thinking is both right and wrong and here is why:

If taking in account of booster buff the kuva amount will be:

Siphon 156.25 x 2 = 312.5/min

Endless 200 x 2 = 400/min

Flood 312.5 x 2 = 625/min

and now with smeeta buff ( assuming u only get 1 stack of buff at a time ):

Siphon 312.5 x 2 = 625/min

Endless 400 x 2 = 800/min

Flood 625 x 2 = 1250/min

This math is both right and wrong and here is why: Remember this smeeta buff only last for 2 mins, now for 4 mins u will get 2500 kuva ( 625 x 4) from siphon with smeeta buff in the window of 120s when siphon is active and booster at the same time. If u want to get 2400 kuva ( (200 x4) x 3) from endless which gonna be 3 towers but each tower last 60s so u can only get 2 tower affect by buff ( assuming u active the tower that exact moment ) so u will only get ( (200x4) x2 + 400) = 2000 kuva and siphon can be done much faster and with less tough enemies like in endless kuva.

So in the end the kuva endless is working as intended and no scaling is needed because this is not a mode for scaling reward and not to replace flood/siphon by any mean. My only wish is for DE to increase the base from 200 to 225 or 250 or 200-250 each tower so the kuva/min sit more well in the middle of siphon/flood right now it just slightly better than siphon and not really worth for the trouble of protect tower + defense agaisnt dealy fortress enemies + always keep eye on LS meter while switching all LS tower to kuva harvest for max kuva/min gain. And my other idea is make every enemies in fortress drop 1-5 kuva on every mission except kuva endless so other node can be playable without worrying of min/max kuva gain ( this is just a wild idea, i dont do the math to check if this can be exploited or not).

Also i'm have run around 15-20 time of 20-mins kuva endless and the math check out with/without booster/smeeta buff. And i would love to hear u guys opinions about this matter and please be polite to each other and #NoScaling

 

 

[Lawmonark]

"Endless" kuva missions are not 200/min.  The filter takes 1 min to finish, yes. But you need to include the time it takes for them to spawn and the time to travel to them.

 

We do need/want scaling Kuva but with a limit.  Something similar to how fissures work, would be nice. 25% booster every  5-10 minutes, up to 100% (or 200%).

Without scaling, people will just continue to do Floods, over and over. (Yes there is a way). It is a nice mode but i do not see people that are actually farming large amounts of kuva... to do it. 

[zWhiteKz]

this is math base on pefect world scenario to explain why we dont need kuva scaling and if scaling u can also do the math the kuva giving back is too much and also that will breath toxic meta back to WF like the old day of void keys also [DE]Sheldon already said this is not replace flood it just another way to do kuva

[Aeiroth]

You see, you assume we get a Life Support every 60 seconds, but the reality is, we get it every 90 seconds. Thus, the math is actually Endless 200/1.5 = 133.33 repeating, putting it BELOW normal Kuva missions. Now, as you said, some can do the normal missions either faster or slower depending on the mission type and how experienced the player/players are. Secondly, the Kuva Fortress Survival is the hardest survival of all with the exception of Mot with it's 2x Damage multiplier. Also, protecting a tower with 4,000 hp from enemies at level 50+ can be especially difficult since some start to do insane damage real quick. I do agree a small boost in gain to 250 per siphon would be adequate, but having a small scaling after every 4 towers would make it feel better when you do go for longer sessions.

[Grimmstyler]

I think Kuva Endless Survival, Siphons and Floods are fine how they are.. Welcome to the grind 

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, Krhymez said:

"

Without scaling, people will just continue to do Floods, over and over. (Yes there is a way). It is a nice mode but i do not see people that are actually farming large amounts of kuva... to do it. 

You can do both. Scaling or not, the amount of Kuva we can acquire per play session has increased. 

[zWhiteKz]

that is why i want the base reward to increase, right now doing kuva endless give back to less for what we do and we all know that also like i said scaling reward just gonna breath more toxic back from the old void key system which force people to stay for set amount of time to get maximum efficency rate

3 minutes ago, Aeiroth said:

You see, you assume we get a Life Support every 60 seconds, but the reality is, we get it every 90 seconds. Thus, the math is actually Endless 200/1.5 = 133.33 repeating, putting it BELOW normal Kuva missions. Now, as you said, some can do the normal missions either faster or slower depending on the mission type and how experienced the player/players are. Secondly, the Kuva Fortress Survival is the hardest survival of all with the exception of Mot with it's 2x Damage multiplier. Also, protecting a tower with 4,000 hp from enemies at level 50+ can be especially difficult since some start to do insane damage real quick. I do agree a small boost in gain to 250 per siphon would be adequate, but having a small scaling after every 4 towers would make it feel better when you do go for longer sessions.

 

[Grimmstyler]

10 minutes ago, Aeiroth said:

You see, you assume we get a Life Support every 60 seconds, but the reality is, we get it every 90 seconds. Thus, the math is actually Endless 200/1.5 = 133.33 repeating, putting it BELOW normal Kuva missions. Now, as you said, some can do the normal missions either faster or slower depending on the mission type and how experienced the player/players are. Secondly, the Kuva Fortress Survival is the hardest survival of all with the exception of Mot with it's 2x Damage multiplier. Also, protecting a tower with 4,000 hp from enemies at level 50+ can be especially difficult since some start to do insane damage real quick. I do agree a small boost in gain to 250 per siphon would be adequate, but having a small scaling after every 4 towers would make it feel better when you do go for longer sessions.

You need to calculate going back to ship.. Starting another mission.. Siphon availability.. Modding for faction of planet siphon on.. Mission objective (which isnt a big deal to experienced players, unless its survival)..

Compared to endless survival mission.. On the same node.. Anytime.. With the same faction.. Less Guardians..

Edited March 30, 2018 by Grimmstyler

[Orblit]

Life support is 90 seconds, then there's the minute to even get the kuva...its hella slow and non-scaling makes going past 20 minutes pointless.

[NoLazyShadow]

Endless 200 Kurva every 2 min 30 sec(1 min to Harvers + life suport every 90 sec). With Booster you get 7000 in 30 min =  NOT worth it at all. You can get more kurva faster by doing simple siphon over and over again. So we NEED scale or this game mode will be useless...just like arcwing, Lunaro..PVP

[zWhiteKz]

please read carefully this is base on perfect world scenerio which mean no travel time cost only kuva gain per minute and yes right now it not worth doing endless kuva compare to siphon/flood but u can only 5 siphon 1 flood each hour so there is that 

[Lion]

Please don't try to speak for the community - there is no 'we' - only your opinion. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Blade

[zWhiteKz]

i dont speak for the community i just show why "we" dont need for a scaling in kuva endless but just a raw base value increase is enough

Edited March 30, 2018 by zWhiteKz

[taiiat]

so with the correct numbers instead of yours - Endless is 80/Minute if you assumed that a Player would never need to move. while a Siphon is ~120-150 (assuming a mission time of 4-5min), a Flood is 300-240.

here's what i had to say on the subject:

On 3/23/2018 at 2:56 AM, taiiat said:

i agree that the amount given probably isn't appropriate and there isn't a skill risk involved with it either. the problem with trying to nail this Survival between Kuva Siphons and Kuva Floods is that Players complete both of them in basically the exact same amount of time. because it's the same thing, but with higher Level Enemies. so since all of the AFK'ing Timers are the same, that means the Mission completes in the same amount of time +/- like 30 seconds. at any rate i'd recommend the amount per Life Support Tower to be 300-350.
i hope more than one is allowed to run at a time, but most importantly is that the more of them you run at once, the more you should get. and not just 600 because you did 3 at once, but rather that the more active at once increases the amount that you get from them as long as that many survives ofcourse. something like +25% to each tower for each Tower higher than 1 that is simultaneously active when each expires (so rather than 3 of them giving 600, 3 of them running at once gives 1050 via [[200 * 1.75] * 3]). the reason for this is two part: because it's an added skill risk and that adding this skill risk makes this Kuva collecting more interesting to do. maybe do the same with the Life Support the converted Towers end up giving off as well.

ideally do both - increase the starting amount somewhat and also have the skill risk bonus.

[Zhoyzu]

Kuva scaling is a poor solution. I know it, DE knows it. Other people know it.

A flat increase in kuva so that it is on par with the gains per minute doing siphons (including loading screen times) is all this endless mode needs. I approximate 250-275 kuva hits the mark.

Reasons we dont want scaling kuva are because of trolls and grief-ers. Some people like to stay a long time and others do not. Sometimes people who like to stay long need to leave earlier than theyd like too. So what happens? While you have people who want to stay super long  and one person wants to leave. Well this is where griefing comes into the equation where now you have people using the life support before you can put the filter in. Now everyone is pissed.

The fact you dont have to run a million missions sit through countless loading screens  is a reward in and of itself. 

Of course someone will retort "harder enemies should reward more" but the next thread over youll see that "the game is too easy and poses no challenge". Why should kuva scale if the difficulty, allegedly, does not?

Kuva on the kuva fortress doesnt make sense anyways.

At the end of the day this new mode only needs to be a viable alternative to existing methods. It does not need to be better or scale rewards.

[SilvaDreams]

33 minutes ago, Blade said:

Please don't try to speak for the community - there is no 'we' - only your opinion. 

 

26 minutes ago, zWhiteKz said:

i dont speak for the community i just show why "we" dont need for a scaling in kuva endless but just a raw base value increase is enough

There is a difference between want and need.

You Want it because it will make things easier for you.

But you don't need it because it will make playing normal or Floods pointless.

[Birbyque]

58 minutes ago, NoLazyShadow said:

Endless 200 Kurva every 2 min 30 sec(1 min to Harvers + life suport every 90 sec). With Booster you get 7000 in 30 min =  NOT worth it at all.

The second life support doesn't spawn 90 seconds after you've finish the kuva siphon. The 90 seconds count as soon as the life support spawned, active or not. So by the time you finish defending, you only have 30 seconds left to wait for the next one.

[-Bing-]

You could have replaced your giant wall of words with DE doesn't want it to scale so it doesnt. I hope you didn't spend too long carefully bolding every other word.

Edited March 30, 2018 by .chcesz.piwo.

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

Reasons we dont want scaling kuva are because of trolls and grief-ers. Some people like to stay a long time and others do not. Sometimes people who like to stay long need to leave earlier than theyd like too. So what happens? While you have people who want to stay super long  and one person wants to leave. Well this is where griefing comes into the equation where now you have people using the life support before you can put the filter in. Now everyone is pissed.

Then don't pub it? Same can be applied to any other mission that's present as well...if people would like to continue doing the fissure survival whilst that 1 guy doesn't want to etc. So it wouldn't make any single difference. It's a behaviour issue.

2 hours ago, Zhoyzu said:

Kuva on the kuva fortress doesnt make sense anyways.

Wtf? You just said money being in a bank doesn't make sense anyway.

[.Yes]

7 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Then don't pub it? Same can be applied to any other mission that's present as well...if people would like to continue doing the fissure survival whilst that 1 guy doesn't want to etc. So it wouldn't make any single difference. It's a behaviour issue.

Wtf? You just said money being in a bank doesn't make sense anyway.

just cuz its in the name doesn't mean it belongs there! There doesn't need to be peanut butter in a peanut butter sandwich. /s

seriously though, the idea that harder enemies =/= better rewards is like saying you don't want end game content, you don't want rewards, you're just here for the "challenge" rather than not wasting your time.

 

[(PSN)johnsoigne]

I need kuva. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by (PS4)johnsoigne

[Kylo.]

Endless Kuva is 200/1.5 not 200.

Also no way in hell are you gonna do a siphon mission in four minutes on average.

Edited March 30, 2018 by kylooooren

[(XBOX)Solargeo]

Well its rewarding people who are willing to stay. And if people want to leave early let them be able to.  Give Survival the same treatment as Defense and Interception . As in it interrupts every 5 minutes and lets you choose to stay or go

[LordNero86]

Endless kuva is just a temporary solution imho. Imagine you ran out all kuva siphons and kuva flood (took around 30 mins to complete all) in 1 hour time span before it refreshes. Rather than doing nothing, just waiting for siphon and flood to respawn, DE gave us a choice to do Kuva survival now. Though I agree the initial reward and scaling seems poor, but in the end DE has all the data if taveuni will be as rewarding as siphon or flood in the long run. Give them time to gather the data amd then perhaps they'll tweak it

[DeMonkey]

7 hours ago, zWhiteKz said:

this is math base on pefect world scenario to explain why we dont need kuva scaling and if scaling u can also do the math the kuva giving back is too much and also that will breath toxic meta back to WF like the old day of void keys also [DE]Sheldon already said this is not replace flood it just another way to do kuva

So you're basically admitting the math is irrelevant. 

A perfect world scenario is not realistic in the slightest, and attempting to use this math to back up your argument is nonsense.