Here is why we dont need kuva endless to scale

[DatDarkOne]

25 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

Realistically in 20 minutes of gameplay you cannot even roll your riven after your 7th try. It is ridicolous...

Yes it is ridiculous that with all the methods to get kuva that some still aren't satisfied.  

Before this mode was added, it took quite a few missions to get large amounts of kuva.  That's even counting the floods.  Then kuva rewards was added to both bounties and sorties and it got a little easier.  

We now have a dedicated way to get decent amounts of kuva whenever we want, and some still aren't satisfied.  

 

On a side note:

I just finished a Kuva Survival and was held hostage after the 20 minutes by the others.  They literally were going to let me use up all my revives at the extraction point even after I requested that I needed to leave.  

I could care less if the rewards scaled or not, but that last mission kinda ticked me off.  I know now to always solo all kuva survivals just like I do all the other Kuva missions.  

[.Yes]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Yes it is ridiculous that with all the methods to get kuva that some still aren't satisfied.  

Before this mode was added, it took quite a few missions to get large amounts of kuva.  That's even counting the floods.  Then kuva rewards was added to both bounties and sorties and it got a little easier.  

We now have a dedicated way to get decent amounts of kuva whenever we want, and some still aren't satisfied.  

 

On a side note:

I just finished a Kuva Survival and was held hostage after the 20 minutes by the others.  They literally were going to let me use up all my revives at the extraction point even after I requested that I needed to leave.  

I could care less if the rewards scaled or not, but that last mission kinda ticked me off.  I know now to always solo all kuva survivals just like I do all the other Kuva missions.  

this could literally be fixed by not doing random pub missions and getting a group and a goal set. Don't blame the gameplay because you didn't plan accordingly 

[DatDarkOne]

24 minutes ago, --Q--Phanini said:

this could literally be fixed by not doing random pub missions and getting a group and a goal set. Don't blame the gameplay because you didn't plan accordingly 

Apparently you didn't read my whole post.  Hmmmmm? Especially my last sentence.  

Edited April 2, 2018 by DatDarkOne

[dudefaceguy]

5 hours ago, --Q--Phanini said:

it isn't a matter of opinion, it truly is bad design

It is a fact that many people share your opinion about scaling kuva. But other people also have different opinions and preferences. There are many facts about the Warframe economy that we don't have access to, but DE does. If you don't care about those facts, that is also a matter of opinion based on your preferences. You only care about one thing: rewards scaling with difficulty. But, other people care about other aspects of the game which are also affected by this, sometimes negatively. So, it is possible for people to have different opinions without being insane.

It's like any other design choice. It is a fact that most people prefer white toilets versus blue toilets. But, you can still buy blue toilets, because some people do like them. Even if most people agree that blue toilets are ugly, their ugliness is still an opinion. The statement "blue toilets are ugly" is an opinion, and so is the statement "rewards should scale over time in endless missions." Saying it many times, or other people agreeing, does not make it a fact. It is not even clear that most players share your opinion, though many certainly do.

[More-L]

Just did a 3:36 siphon run for 600 kuva solo, a squad would have been even faster for spreading out to search. It would take me minimum 4:45 for the same in survival (adding 15 secs for traversing/filter) it's pretty clear which one is better.

Kuva survival only sits in the 'middle' of siphon and flood on a survival mission.

EDIT: I will also note, did 3 full siphon missions solo and it took me approx 17 min including the time it took me to post my original comment and I wasn't even intending to rush the missions so probably closer to 15 but w/e. 1800 kuva in 17 mins from siphons. Where in survival it would be about 2000 in 17 mins if you assume 1:40 for each tower (1:30 spawn and only 10 sec for travel time.) If survival is meant to be in the middle of floods and siphon it is pretty clear it currently gives well below a 'middle' point. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by More-L

[.Yes]

tell me again how its in the middle?

 

Data courtesy of u/Warframe_engineer on r/Warframe

Edited April 2, 2018 by --Q--Phanini

[DatDarkOne]

That list doesn't make sense.  Also why are the times different for the spy missions?  That is the one mission where you don't have to kill anything so the average time should be the same.  

[zWhiteKz]

18 minutes ago, --Q--Phanini said:

tell me again how its in the middle?

 

Data courtesy of u/Warframe_engineer on r/Warframe

This is the reason why we need a base increase is enough but not scaling, scaling would only lead to bad/toxic behaviour in the player base in the end... trust me the old void keys system show this side already and how we suffer from it also remember to count the time down between siphon/flood, endless dont have down time and dont have limit how much u can do in 1 hour until siphon/flood reset.

Edited April 2, 2018 by zWhiteKz
typo

[.Yes]

Just now, DatDarkOne said:

That list doesn't make sense.  Also why are the times different for the spy missions?  That is the one mission where you don't have to kill anything so the average time should be the same.  

this information was provided on reddit by the user named above. The data he amassed was through personal missions and experience, the timing may be different but the main take away from this is, the real numbers prove its NOT in any sense in between a siphon and a flood

[More-L]

19 minutes ago, --Q--Phanini said:

Uhh... just did a quick calculation based off of average kuva/min values for siphon and it = 130.3, not 150. I know it probably isn't your table but I have no idea where that 150 average came from. Especially considering only 2 values are above 150 and highest being +23 where lowest is -53

EDIT: Nevermind, I think I figured out where it came from. The 30 and 34 runs from the +150 values is probably where it came from. So it is likely that the original person added every value together from every mission type and got an average. While that shows average kuva/min for that single player though, it is incorrect to do it this way if you wish to compare siphons to survival missions as only average kuva/min for each mission should be used.

Edited April 2, 2018 by More-L
reformat

[Voltage]

On 3/30/2018 at 12:52 AM, zWhiteKz said:

So in the end the kuva endless is working as intended and no scaling is needed because this is not a mode for scaling reward and not to replace flood/siphon by any mean. 

As someone who buys 100% of their rivens due to the nature of farming Kuva, why should I touch a mission that is worse than the best available one (a Flood)?

Survival gives no incentive to push players and it caters to those who leave after 20 minutes to rinse and repeat because their effort is not rewarded past said point. This gamemode is an exact copy of excavation: slow, boring, uninteresting, unrewarding, and with non-scaling objectives/rewards.

Why should I invest my time into a gamemode that is poorly designed? The intent of Endless Kuva should have been to have players push themselves to invest more into Rivens to push harder the next time from better rolls on their mods, not a gamemode that is just like Defection/Infested Salvage/Bounties: unoriginal and boring. Since the Void Key has been demolished, DE has given players little hope for high level and rewarding content. The reward for pushing yourself in T4S was key efficiency. There is no efficiency in any endless modes anymore.

Until DE gives me a reason to invest time and resources into my gear past Forma, I will continue to buy Riven Mods, test them against enemies I never encounter in the Simulacrum, pat myself on the back for skipping Kuva farming, and logout.

I have no interest farming a resource that is an eye-sore when I cannot be given a place to encounter enemies that challenge my gear and rewards me properly for doing so.

Edited April 2, 2018 by --Q--Voltage

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, dudefaceguy said:

The statement "blue toilets are ugly" is an opinion, and so is the statement "rewards should scale over time in endless missions." Saying it many times, or other people agreeing, does not make it a fact. It is not even clear that most players share your opinion, though many certainly do.

Eh...the toilet thing is a matter of personal preference...some people like blue, some like red. Whilst the other example is simply a matter of common sense, not an opinion. Why would someone work harder for the same gains? Of course you do that since it pays off accordingly. But it's currently not the case with kuva survivals. So that needs fixed. If it is endless, it should show endless. Nobody likes to play harder stuff for the same gains than on the easy stuff. No wonder people get burnt out when all there is to do is to rush quick missions to the extraction, in order to get the good loot.

Edited April 2, 2018 by IceColdHawk

[(XBOX)Clockwork Geoff]

On ‎30‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 7:37 AM, Zhoyzu said:

Kuva scaling is a poor solution. I know it, DE knows it. Other people know it.

A flat increase in kuva so that it is on par with the gains per minute doing siphons (including loading screen times) is all this endless mode needs. I approximate 250-275 kuva hits the mark.

Reasons we dont want scaling kuva are because of trolls and grief-ers. Some people like to stay a long time and others do not. Sometimes people who like to stay long need to leave earlier than theyd like too. So what happens? While you have people who want to stay super long  and one person wants to leave. Well this is where griefing comes into the equation where now you have people using the life support before you can put the filter in. Now everyone is pissed.

The fact you dont have to run a million missions sit through countless loading screens  is a reward in and of itself. 

Of course someone will retort "harder enemies should reward more" but the next thread over youll see that "the game is too easy and poses no challenge". Why should kuva scale if the difficulty, allegedly, does not?

Kuva on the kuva fortress doesnt make sense anyways.

At the end of the day this new mode only needs to be a viable alternative to existing methods. It does not need to be better or scale rewards.

Yeah spot on, this is the exact balanced solution that is required.

I also agree the main purpose to it, is simply to provide an alternative way of doing things.

[(PSN)schachi-chaos]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb (XB1)Clockwork Geoff:

I also agree the main purpose to it, is simply to provide an alternative way of doing things.

Exactly. People are behaving as if this gamemode is the only way to gain Kuva. It is an alternative and does not need to be better than the already existing ways of earning Kuva. It is simply designed for those who like to do survivals and don't like the previous way of getting Kuva.

[DeMonkey]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)schachi-chaos said:

Exactly. People are behaving as if this gamemode is the only way to gain Kuva. 

You'd think after the term strawman has been used about 20 times in this topic people would learn, alas this does not appear to be the case. 

Like, I can see why some wouldn't want it to scale, I totally see your points, but holy Lotus will you lay off with the strawmen, it's pathetic and doesn't help your case.

20 minutes ago, (PS4)schachi-chaos said:

It is simply designed for those who like to do survivals and don't like the previous way of getting Kuva.

It is designed to be yet another short spammed mission, just like every other mission in this game.

People who like to do survivals tend to enjoy long missions, ergo not Kuva "endless". 

You can argue it's designed for survival players, that's cool. But I can just as easily argue that the missions very structure is antithetical to what survival players want.

[Hypernaut1]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

 

People who like to do survivals tend to enjoy long missions, ergo not Kuva "endless". 

You can argue it's designed for survival players, that's cool. But I can just as easily argue that the missions very structure is antithetical to what survival players want.

The idea that people love survival suddenly can't play past 20 BECAUSE newly added kuva doesn't scale doesn't make sense. 

I've played kuva survival to 30 already, I've played fissures past 20, because I was having fun- and I don't LOVE endurance. I still net 3k+ Kuva, which is the most I can get in one sitting anywhere besides sortie. so the idea that it's useless to stay is simply not true. 

The advantage to staying long is the lump sum of Kuva gained from one mission. If you LOVE endurance so much, the time/efficiency kuva min max shouldn't even matter to you. You should be happy you can do [what you love] and still earn a valuable resource. 

Also-i did this after a doing flood. So no, I couldn't just do another flood for more Kuva as none were available. It wouldn't make sense for me to think "well I'm not doing survival because Kuva is more efficient"... While no flood is available.  So in one hour I am able to earn about 5k Kuva instead of just 1400 from a "efficient" flood and waiting for another one. 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[dudefaceguy]

7 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

the other example is simply a matter of common sense, not an opinion

Folks needs to look up the definition of "opinion" in the dictionary. Having a reason for the opinion does not make it a fact, even if everyone agrees with the reason.

I take mass transit instead of driving because I don't like sitting in traffic. Nobody likes sitting in traffic; that's just common sense! So mass transit is better than driving. It's not a matter of opinion.

[.Yes]

5 minutes ago, dudefaceguy said:

Folks needs to look up the definition of "opinion" in the dictionary. Having a reason for the opinion does not make it a fact, even if everyone agrees with the reason.

I take mass transit instead of driving because I don't like sitting in traffic. Nobody likes sitting in traffic; that's just common sense! So mass transit is better than driving. It's not a matter of opinion.

when your example is so subjective then yes, mass transit is better than driving when it comes to dealing with traffic, just like subjectively my example is better than yours when it comes to explaining details of other examples

 

Subjectively thats a fact

[(PSN)Yes-Man-Kablaam]

Honestly for me just not havinb to do siphons is reward enough lol. Hated siphons and flood never found them fun and wasn't good at them. Even failed some so the 200 here every minute + survival rewards and decent affinity gain for casually farming focus works out well enough for me. Tbh scaling rewarfs while sounding nice would start a lot of hostage holding and strict meta farming i wouldn't be looking forward to getting into. Right now Kuva survival basically you want 1 Nekros and then go with w/e.

[dudefaceguy]

8 minutes ago, --Q--Phanini said:

when your example is so subjective then yes, mass transit is better than driving when it comes to dealing with traffic, just like subjectively my example is better than yours when it comes to explaining details of other examples

 

Subjectively thats a fact

Exactly, we are talking about opinions that are informed by various different facts and subjective preferences.

[SneakyErvin]

I see many people using the " but it takes x seconds for the tower to spawn and you have to get there". Sure, the tower takes x sec to spawn, but do people seriously stand around at the old tower until the new one has fully spawned? The travel time between towers should be zero unless you play terribly wrong. You should be at the next tower when it spawns, there is no excuse not to be.

I also saw someone mention a time regarding siphons and how 5.22 minutes would result in siphons giving more? How? Maybe if you play endless for only 5 minutes and add in the travel time to the calculation. But in reality a 5.22 per siphon run would mean over 21mins spent for an avarage of 2500 kuva, a result obtained somewhere between 15 and 20 mins in endless kuva survival. This does not include loadtimes or the lack there of when comparing the two. If you add those endless kuva will be even further ahead.

So stop adding numbers that simply arent there, like the travel time between towers in endless since you dont wait around until it has spawned, you move on as soon as the location lights up.

edit: And I must say the spread sheet posted is so horribly done to compare anything. You simply cant do it that way to get the right result.

Edited April 2, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[dudefaceguy]

16 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

it takes x seconds for the tower to spawn and you have to get there

Also, the time when you activate the tower does not affect the rate of life support drops. If you get behind, there will be multiple towers on the map at once, and you can activate them all at the same time to catch up. So, it is always exactly 133.333 kuva per minute.

[White_Matter]

18 hours ago, dudefaceguy said:

I mean, it's obviously a matter of opinion. We are talking about the best way to have fun in a video game; I don't know how you can get closer to the exact definition of "opinion." For those who can't think of any reasons why scaling is not implemented, here are a few that I already posted in another thread:

1. Increased rewards cause inflation. Warframe has an economy, and kuva rewards affect the supply of rolled rives with good stats, and also incentives to buy boosters. This in turn affects the price of rolled rivens, and DE's income. If rewards scale infinitely, kuva will suffer inflation, possibly to the point that it will be worthless, because people will have more than they could ever need. This means that after a few long missions, you will get no rewards at all because you will already have all the kuva you need. It would be like scaling alloy plate rewards. (DE obviously already wants to decrease prices for rolled rivens, or they wouldn't have implemented kuva survival in the first place, but it's a matter of degree.)

2. To prevent ridiculous inflation, rewards would have to be capped. They would also have to start below the optimal farming level so that the average reward would reach DE's target level. For example, they would start at 100 and scale up to 300 over a few hours. This is much worse for people who don't want to stay in very long missions. Or, they would just scale a trivial amount, like 10%, quickly and then hit the cap. Bascially, DE has a number in mind for the amount of kuva they want us to farm; any increase through scaling rewards would have to be met with a reduction elsewhere in order to avoid messing up the economy.

3. A scaling reward feels like a punishment for extracting. It also feels like you are wasting your time in the early stages of the mission. The higher the scaling, the worse this problem gets.

To fix inflation, and to give people who don't like very long missions a reasonable reward, and to avoid feelings of wasted time while waiting for rewards to scale up, you can just start the rewards at a reasonable level and have them stay reasonable forever. Then everyone gets a reasonable reward, no matter how long they stay.

I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't have scaling rewards; I'm just saying that there are good reasons to not implement them. Whether or not these reasons are more persuasive than the reasons to implement scaling rewards is partly an issue of fact (e.g. how much they affect the plat economy), and partly an issue of opinion (e.g. how much individuals dislike waiting for rewards to scale up to reasonable levels).

There is a difference between common sense and opinion. 

Having better loot as a result of increased difficulty is common sense. 

Now you may arrgue that common sense isn't needed here. But then, it would be your opinion.

[dudefaceguy]

33 minutes ago, White_Matter said:

There is a difference between common sense and opinion. 

Having better loot as a result of increased difficulty is common sense. 

Now you may arrgue that common sense isn't needed here. But then, it would be your opinion.

Yes, exactly this. Increased loot for increased difficulty is one of several different factors to consider when forming an opinion.

[vvhorus]

I did a couple of 20 minute kuva survivals over the weekend, 6200 kuva each with a booster.

Rolled a riven twice (no improvement). Bye bye 7000 kuva.

The rest I used to roll unrolled rivens.

3000 kuva (without a booster) for 20 minutes is not worth the time to me. Basically you need to grind for half an hour to be able to roll a riven once. I don't own that many useful ones anyways, so no, thanks...