Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

as i sayed, we end up with broken ability. still have strong ground on whole spore rework. 

[SolyImmo]

First skill bugged. Can`t cast, spore timer is still on, dying not helping... Happens randomly. All other skills are castable except number 1 (Spore).

[Xolgys]

vor 20 Minuten schrieb -HoB-AngelofRevenge:

@Xydethi do respect your opinion and suggestion, thing is that many player have their own suggestions and DE still push what they seem to be good. we are by passed in actual reworks so we can talk all night about rework and possible solution and end up with none. we as players are leaved with broken stuff and 2+ hot fixes after update. and we agree that spores are broken at this point and not productive, expecialy in term of corrosive nature. so yeah this rework is bad...

its not. corrosive benefits from reproccing. viral doesnt. by nature it makes more sense to put viral on miasma since u dont spam it. spores would procc viral once and every further procc would just refresh duration. corrosive has no duration since its a flat removal. reproccing it makes it worthwhile and actually a real beast for endgame where armor is one's worst enemy. the only issue with the rework is the mentioned selftermination of spores.

[-Virtuoso-]

OH. MY. GOD.

After about 2hrs of testing and twisting and turning...
Love this rework! Absolutely fantastic. You are actually making a 'stand n spank' frame into a 'run n gun' frame and im loving every bit of it. My views about the abilities:

Spore: reduced spread range is very good, with the 'detonate on recast' mechanic we are actually having to work to spread the good spores, or just killing stuff, either way, no more 'stand still and cover the whole map' deal, very good! The damage rack-up is also great, when the numbers starts to go up i actually feel powerful cause i see all those big dot numbers!

Molt: The speed boost is really a QoL addition, not to mention the molts wont die right away now! 4secs of breathing room is a lot!

Lash: The augment is actually silly awesome now. sniping and making clouds? Checked! Supra spam and cloud the room? Checked! People would actually use it now!

miasma: Tbh with all those awesome stuff on the other 3 abilities, the nuke is kinda feeling like an over-killing tool :P Havent tested much into this cause was too busy ogling at the awesomeness of rest of the rework.

other survivability rework/buffs: Felt like that cherry topping!

10/10 even though she isnt my top frame (i mean nyx is nyx after all) but she is going to be my most used if this rework stays this way :P thanks DE and everyone worked on this rework this was great!

PS: forgot to mention, now i can equip 'condition overload' on my crit weapon just cause saryn is spreading so many conditions! Legit beast mode!
PPS: yeah the spore getting stuck at 10 cause im not the host and i casted it on a dying enemy needs fixed, but im sure you guys are working on it ❤️

Edited May 17, 2018 by -Virtuoso-
forgot to mention CO synergy with saryn!

[LovinglyWicked]

Having issues with the spore spread. Seems like that's happening with a lot of other people. The counter usually stops around 6 for me and even shooting them isn't spreading it to the enemies right next to them.

[MexicanBreadstickPuppy]

So to start, thanks for borking my favorite frame. 'Preciate it.

Spores don't spread, not when I kill the enemies, or pop the spores myself. The bubbles don't even properly attach to enemies after SEVERAL missions to test, and having 1 detonate them again is one of the most annoying nuances. Make it a hold to detonate or something else. But let me cast spores where I want, when I want. Spores are her powerhouse, now they don't even work.

Miasma is fine, I guess, but completely killing her Spores makes her almost useless. The rework sounded great until I played it, but now I wish you'd just revert her back.

[NezuHimeSama]

I don't know what the current discussion is, but spores are not spreading correctly. I've had them not spread to enemies within 5m of the spored target after it died. They don't seem to spread at all sometimes, and when they do, not very far.

Spores need another look again.

[RMSGM]

Theres something wrong here.. spores don´t spread as they should and sometimes i cant even cast them?? bug??

Edited May 17, 2018 by RMSGM

[Purity]

2 hours ago, -Virtuoso- said:

OH. MY. GOD.

After about 2hrs of testing and twisting and turning...
Love this rework! Absolutely fantastic. You are actually making a 'stand n spank' frame into a 'run n gun' frame and im loving every bit of it. My views about the abilities:

Spore: reduced spread range is very good, with the 'detonate on recast' mechanic we are actually having to work to spread the good spores, or just killing stuff, either way, no more 'stand still and cover the whole map' deal, very good! The damage rack-up is also great, when the numbers starts to go up i actually feel powerful cause i see all those big dot numbers!

Molt: The speed boost is really a QoL addition, not to mention the molts wont die right away now! 4secs of breathing room is a lot!

Lash: The augment is actually silly awesome now. sniping and making clouds? Checked! Supra spam and cloud the room? Checked! People would actually use it now!

miasma: Tbh with all those awesome stuff on the other 3 abilities, the nuke is kinda feeling like an over-killing tool 😛 Havent tested much into this cause was too busy ogling at the awesomeness of rest of the rework.

other survivability rework/buffs: Felt like that cherry topping!

10/10 even though she isnt my top frame (i mean nyx is nyx after all) but she is going to be my most used if this rework stays this way 😛 thanks DE and everyone worked on this rework this was great!

PS: forgot to mention, now i can equip 'condition overload' on my crit weapon just cause saryn is spreading so many conditions! Legit beast mode!
PPS: yeah the spore getting stuck at 10 cause im not the host and i casted it on a dying enemy needs fixed, but im sure you guys are working on it ❤️

Reduced spread range is a positive? Okay, imma just hang up my saryn coat and play khora or nyx for a while.

Edit: you aren't a de spy right?

Edited May 18, 2018 by Jebbers

[blaes]

2 hours ago, -Virtuoso- said:

Spore: reduced spread range is very good, with the 'detonate on recast' mechanic we are actually having to work to spread the good spores, or just killing stuff, either way, no more 'stand still and cover the whole map' deal, very good! The damage rack-up is also great, when the numbers starts to go up i actually feel powerful cause i see all those big dot numbers!❤️

that's funny because i have the exact opposite experience with spores. before the rework, i used to be constantly casting spore on enemies, running up to them and melee-ing them in the face with toxic lash to instantly ramp up and spread disease everywhere, which killed everything in the general vicinity real quick/instantaneously, then moving to another spot/mob.

 

now i cast spore on an enemy, shoot him a few times to spread spores, then... i wait. i wait for spore's damage to slowly ramp up. because there's nothing else to do. if i kill the enemies, spore's damage will ramp up even more slowly, making it irrelevant most of the time. or worse, there wont be any enemies left and it'll just stop. so i wait, and i shoot a couple of enemies from time to time to ensure it spreads to new enemies. and when spores damage is finally relevant to the enemies' level, they start dying. then things go real fast and spore burns itself out shortly after, for a lack of enemy. and i'm back to square 1. cast, spread and wait, wait, wait.

 

edit : there are a few places where it works fine. small maps on onslaught, where enemies are constantly spawning, and organized survival where players stay together which effectively turns it into a small map with constant spawns.

pretty much anywhere else, it's just a pain. back to the closet with saryn i guess.

Edited May 18, 2018 by blaes

[Peter]

Please remove Line of Sight from spores, this not make any sense.

[Kahelsinova]

I feel like the most enjoyable part of old Saryn was to have so many damage numbers popping up across the screen at the same time because of the nature of how Spores spread. As it stands, it feels a little bit off that it doesn't spread anywhere near as much even with 280% range, even more so with the inability to recast it on other enemies without removing it from those currently suffering from it it, but I also understand the trepidation about making it too strong, seeing as it does have the potential to be so.

Maybe allow the Spores to spread like they used to but tone down the damage and the damage scaling a bit? That way it relies on there being a lot of enemies around for the Spores to tick up for the scary damage numbers, but it allows the Corrosive Procs to really shine and encourage players to do more than just stand still and let Spores do all of the work whilst still having the whole "Numbers Confetti" that Saryn used to enjoy across the entire map.

As it stands, I do really like the Molt change and the Miasma change. Definitely helps with the survivability of her and the mass Viral proc is much handier as a one off explosion than the old Corruption proc. It's not the most exciting ultimate in Warframe, but it's much more effective and that's what matters. 

I feel Toxic Lash could be a little bit more buffed, again, maybe lower the damage of the amp but allow her team to benefit from it as well to help her fit the niche of "AoE DoT Utility" and to contribute to the number confetti again for everyone, so that people really know they've got a Saryn on their team. Letting everyone be capable of stacking Toxic procs on enemies from their weapons would be thematic to the frame and help solidify her niche of being THE large area threat that increases over time rather than just an outright immediate damage buff from the likes of Rhino and sorts.

As it stands though, I feel like with a few quality of life tweaks and changes it could be a really successful rework to literally my favourite frame in the game. ❤️

[Entharias]

Honestly, played Saryn all day, and i am unhappy.

1) Spores now seem to use LOS, which is a massive nerf, and explains why the spread is so much worse
    Love the corrosive and % status on it though.
   
•I would suggest to bring back spores duration, keep endless scaling (for those who like duration builds on her) and remove line of sight on spores and make spore detoation spread spores to nearby enemies or remove the detonation completely, it's cute, but it's a mess..

2) Molt is just great, i love that you can't cast spores on it anymore.
3) Nothing to say, great change.
4) Same as 3, just great.

Overall 3/4 are good changes, but spore is her key ability, if it's bad, the other 3 also collapse.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Nakrast

[Yorgy]

Well, I don't know what everyone is complaining about. I just did and Onslaught with my wife and managed to get a DoT of 3720! Lash made my shotgun all that more terrifying and molt was an lifesaver when things got hairy I've played Sayrn since she was first put and and I have to say, this is the most fun I've had with her in a long long time.

 https://imgur.com/a/o3wynmh

https://imgur.com/a/Ak9J1FP

I'm really enjoying this change and I wouldn't even call it any form of nerf

[NezuHimeSama]

3 minutes ago, Yorgy said:

Well, I don't know what everyone is complaining about. I just did and Onslaught with my wife and managed to get a DoT of 3720! Lash made my shotgun all that more terrifying and molt was an lifesaver when things got hairy I've played Sayrn since she was first put and and I have to say, this is the most fun I've had with her in a long long time.

 https://imgur.com/a/o3wynmh

https://imgur.com/a/Ak9J1FP

I'm really enjoying this change and I wouldn't even call it any form of nerf

It builds up pretty quick. The issue is the consistency of the move. I think the buildup should be nerfed to have an increased initial buildup but decreased scalability, and return the spread range and reliability of the old Spore. As is, outside of single, open tiles like you get in Ons or some Defense nodes, Spore is pretty much worthless garbage outside of very late-game. As a first order ability on a warframe, that is the opposite of what it should be.

[(PSN)teacup775]

The changes look interesting. The over use of exclamation points is distracting. I hate being lobbied by punctuation.

[Purity]

2 minutes ago, NezuHimeSama said:

It builds up pretty quick. The issue is the consistency of the move. I think the buildup should be nerfed to have an increased initial buildup but decreased scalability, and return the spread range and reliability of the old Spore. As is, outside of single, open tiles like you get in Ons or some Defense nodes, Spore is pretty much worthless garbage outside of very late-game. As a first order ability on a warframe, that is the opposite of what it should be.

Even in late game, one slip up (which is bound to happen) and you get punished like a mofo

[Entharias]

18 minutes ago, Yorgy said:

Well, I don't know what everyone is complaining about. I just did and Onslaught with my wife and managed to get a DoT of 3720! Lash made my shotgun all that more terrifying and molt was an lifesaver when things got hairy I've played Sayrn since she was first put and and I have to say, this is the most fun I've had with her in a long long time.

 https://imgur.com/a/o3wynmh

https://imgur.com/a/Ak9J1FP

I'm really enjoying this change and I wouldn't even call it any form of nerf

She works perfectly in onslaught, but only there.
If you play her in any other mission that is not onslaught or survival, you will notice that was overall nerfed.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Hello DE,

I'm back again to bring in some of my early diagnostics.

So I've been watching the streams and talking to many players. They speak mainly about one thing, that the scaling is hard to maintain. Having seen this enough to know, I know that this is due to 2 things.

A. Cascading effect. I mentioned this before, that once the spores reach the point that they're killing enemies fast enough to become autonomous, it kills itself out. This is something players are noticing, that you cast the spore, then spread it, then it's a waiting game. You wait for the spore to do it's dirty work, spread to others, then when it reaches the point that it cascades kills, it kill itself out. After this, you must recast again and start the scaling over.

B. The tactic scales with enemy density, so naturally, in missions with high enemy density like simulacrum and onslaught, it performs more than adequate, but in missions with normal enemy densities, it starts pulling back, and in solo, it falls off severely. The issue is that it scales linearly. The rate is really determined by enemy density and spore density per enemy, which really is limited. When enemy levels and scaling are lower than spore's starting scaling and kill rate, this tactic really acts much like a small area nuke. The sweet spot for spores currently is around level 50-80. People talking about getting 5k per tick, this is really nothing, because the enemies you fight at those levels are low enough that this is enough to kill and spread, but this point where it performs like it was envisioned is around the 50s all the way up to the 80s.

Around level 80 is the sweet spot and only level 80 in onslaught. Take it to any other mission, and once enemies pass this point, she's basically another armor stripper. Reason is that enemy scaling (Keep in mind I'm talking about health scaling, not armor scaling since corrosive strips this very easily) passes the scaling potential of the spores, and when this point is reached, saryn must retire.

I predicted many of the issues that she has in this post here.

DE, I love the mechanics and the changes to everything else was truly amazing. Miasma and Spore switching makes great use of each, because you really only need 1 viral proc every  8 second with her, which miasma cover, while corrosive needs fast successive procs, which spore covers. I never complained about this, nor do I complain about the molt+spore combo.being removed. In fact, I support that, but stopping the Toxin carry and recasting of spores is really gimping her right now.

I understand what the issue was with the toxin carry mechanic, but the method of its mechanics was really one of the best mechanics in the game to date. I believe DE that if you bring this mechanic back into the current iteration of spores, you'll be surprised as to how well it fits into the frame.
Again, Thank you for all your hard work and I hope this reaches you.

I'd wait a couple weeks for the change to set in, and then maybe we can see what happens with this.

[Cibyllae]

Can someone please quote DE where they said they gave spores a LoS requirement

Edited May 18, 2018 by Cibyllae

[-Virtuoso-]

3 hours ago, Jebbers said:

Reduced spread range is a positive? Okay, imma just hang up my saryn coat and play khora or nyx for a while.

Edit: you aren't a de spy right?

i mean if its hard for you to run and gun then its kinda like a personal problem ya know!

[-Virtuoso-]

3 hours ago, blaes said:

that's funny because i have the exact opposite experience with spores. before the rework, i used to be constantly casting spore on enemies, running up to them and melee-ing them in the face with toxic lash to instantly ramp up and spread disease everywhere, which killed everything in the general vicinity real quick/instantaneously, then moving to another spot/mob.

 

now i cast spore on an enemy, shoot him a few times to spread spores, then... i wait. i wait for spore's damage to slowly ramp up. because there's nothing else to do. if i kill the enemies, spore's damage will ramp up even more slowly, making it irrelevant most of the time. or worse, there wont be any enemies left and it'll just stop. so i wait, and i shoot a couple of enemies from time to time to ensure it spreads to new enemies. and when spores damage is finally relevant to the enemies' level, they start dying. then things go real fast and spore burns itself out shortly after, for a lack of enemy. and i'm back to square 1. cast, spread and wait, wait, wait.

 

edit : there are a few places where it works fine. small maps on onslaught, where enemies are constantly spawning, and organized survival where players stay together which effectively turns it into a small map with constant spawns.

pretty much anywhere else, it's just a pain. back to the closet with saryn i guess.

i guess yeah for you! We clearly have different play styles for sure! Sorry if the new saryn doesnt suit yours!

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

8 hours ago, Xydeth said:

its not. corrosive benefits from reproccing. viral doesnt. by nature it makes more sense to put viral on miasma since u dont spam it. spores would procc viral once and every further procc would just refresh duration. corrosive has no duration since its a flat removal. reproccing it makes it worthwhile and actually a real beast for endgame where armor is one's worst enemy. the only issue with the rework is the mentioned selftermination of spores.

we agree on spores, and many many other are also complain about it and xp are random on that mater. about armor striping you are right partially, but since most of player are not playing end game and advarge lvl of enemy is 100 and mission duration about 40min. and we have already mechanic for remove armor and many ways, aura as usual so no need for corrosive spores. and by mechanic it should remove armor eaven in late end game no mater of number  since it is done by % of aura and i think flat on weapons, but if it does not than is broken mechanic in theory( 4xcp should remove all armor ). i think that viral also benefit from recasting but could not find any official comfirm. DE prity much are lacking solid background explanation in general about game. any official comfirm is eyes look above and say yeah i think it does not sure if it is actualy, saw it dev time and prime time few times. for surv and constant enemy spam this rewok is good but in other missions yep it is prity much nerf. so far i saw players complain about it.

Edited May 18, 2018 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

1 hour ago, -Virtuoso- said:

i guess yeah for you! We clearly have different play styles for sure! Sorry if the new saryn doesnt suit yours!

if something is reworked it does not mean that is good by default. and as usual something are always bugged in this game. so new play style may be broken by bugs and can be bad. old saryn (spores) was so much batter. and atm this is main problem and xp about it is different from player to player. so yeah it does not suit anyone if it is broken ability.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

If these rework of spores have same range as old one than this would be very nice. but at this point  this is such a nerf. and you can talk all you want spores as spores are nerfed. tryed it and you know what this is so bad in term of range and spread. end of story. detonate for more dmg is good but i would keep viral and range of old spores and incorporate it this new rewok. may be interesting results, this way i am so dissapointed. lot of broken stuff and 2 hotfix for update- rework speak how good it is done.