Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

[Urlan]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

currosive does way more damage then viral... so everything they told you was wrong plus they r adding ramping damage, so u can acculy kill stuff

dont listan to the other people comnplaining, they are feeding you missinformation 

That isn't really true you will find, when most players use Corrosive projection. The real comparison is between this state and halving a scaling life force of such enemies. Corrosive is a nice status and damage type but it doesn't compare honestly in this case situation.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

26 minutes ago, Urlan said:

That isn't really true you will find, when most players use Corrosive projection. The real comparison is between this state and halving a scaling life force of such enemies. Corrosive is a nice status and damage type but it doesn't compare honestly in this case situation.

currosive damage, not status, damage, is stronger then viral vrs robotics and ancients... because its their weakness... so im sorry you don't understand the game

so pleas explain to me what the issue is? why is it "flying over my head" why half thier health when u can outright kill them with rifle amps and there is no reason u cant just use miasma,,,,,

ps: in public no one uses corrosive projection 

Edited May 15, 2018 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[Dabluechimp]

On 2018-05-10 at 2:06 PM, GnarlsDarkley said:

RIP my Saryn...but it actually seems pretty fun. I'm just not so sure about the Viral to Corrosive Change on her Spores though

I was upset at that at first as well but the change of corrosive to viral on miasma with 100% proc rate really helps, and that way you could still get that max hp reduction

[Dabluechimp]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Lord Touch Mi said:

Being still relatively new to the game. Only understanding so much about it. I feel in my own opinion. That this saryn rework will only hurt her similar to ember and her world on fire rework. I based this opinion on what I have experienced throughout game and chatting with other players. And what I see is further pushing me away from the game. I'm noticing DE trying to force players such as myself who enjoy using simple things such as saryn and her molt/spore combo or ember and her world on fire before it was nerfed (still disliking that change). That being said, I feel that some of these changes are good such as saryn's increased armor or miasma change from corrosive to viral. I don't mind those changes. What worries me is not being able to cast Spores on Molt and that spore will not longer be viral but instead be corrosive.

De are trying to remove the whole Stand in once place, spam 2 skills, and win mentality from the game

[Nykerios]

-snip-

Edited May 15, 2018 by --Q--Stryker
Tagged wrong person, disregard

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

currosive damage, not status, damage, is stronger then viral vrs robotics and ancients... because its their weakness... so im sorry you don't understand the game

so pleas explain to me what the issue is? why is it "flying over my head" why half thier health when u can outright kill them with rifle amps and there is no reason u cant just use miasma,,,,,

ps: in public no one uses corrosive projection 

I would love to visit such a world as the PS4 console, to live in such an idealized and mystical place that it denies the reality of PC. Delightful in a way to be told I don't understand the game, considering I have spent so much time on it; likely more than yourself by a bit I wager - even if one were to include alt accounts -but to live in such a world of make-believe where Corrosive Projection isn't used - priceless so well worth it overall I would wager. Now, you are likely still under the misnomer that Corrosive Damage is going to do anything; which is cute - its not - Corrosive damage doing additional damage to an ancient and Viral resisted is not meaningful when your enemies have that much life; what is meaningful for scaling is outright halving all the enemies' life totals. This allows the Saryn utilizing her maiming strike whip to easily kill the enemies more quickly - almost like a shotgun spinning on a floor in a room full of toddlers - if you parden the expression,  its quick and efficient and much more than trying to do Corrosive damage via Spores as an ability damage as fun as it is.

Your not really getting that the subject you were replying to was about the Saryn warframe's scaling and partially, I think you are realizing that; if only through your choice of text - out right killing them with rifle amps - which makes one feel that you understand that something like an ability to deal direct damage is heavily undermined by Warframe's enemy scaling design. It is well you understand that, since it means you understand some mechanics of the game! Unfortunately, you don't understand that while removing armor and dealing some small corrosive damage is nice, its real function is to enable easier killing of foes that are beyond our normal scaling or at the very least, stress it without jumping through serious hoops. This is the reason for meta builds and bandwagon behavior, even learning heavily on crutch mechanics that I am very glad you have enough experience with the PS4 Community to know isn't a problem on that console in public. Perhaps you would like to run more missions first?

[--Noizer--]

New spores have the line of sight thing?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

5 hours ago, Cibyllae said:

Bud I have 52 mil xp on Saryn, I know how she works I'm aware of her interactions which are well known. When an enemy has spores on them and dies, the spore spread range is halved. 1.45 x 16 = 23.2/(2) = 11.6m. Why don't you settle down here, her ranges are still working as they did. No line of sight changes, no range changes, atleast no los&range changes that the video can prove.

EDIT: And if there is confusion

10 < 11.6 < 13

Very good point. At first, i didn't notice the most crucial part of this, that the enemy died before the spore was spread. I had assumed that the spore spread before the energy died, but it appears this is not the case. I originally thought Rebecca had toxic lash up, which is why i thought the prior.

This may explain the reasoning for the reduced range, but even so, throughout the video, range still seems a bit off. I had to go frame by frame to detect the fact that the spore spread on death of the enemy and not by the attack of the weapon, which didn't 1 hit the enemy.

So if that's the exact reason for this instance, then spores range is not line of sight or reduced.

I am still hesitant to call the myth busted because throughout the rest of the gameplay, the range doesn't seem to match current stats. Even so, i knew about spore spreading on death at half range. This is common knowledge, so putting the information here in the workshop had me assume that there was something new with this mechanic as if they intended to have it spread at full range. Again, DE didn't specify anything.

It took a Primetime question to even get the information about the toxin carry. I still would like clarification by DE so that we don't start assuming anything.

For all we know, they may have halved overall range but let spores carry for full range on death. Otherwise, why mention it in the notes as "the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch." if it was there before the rework?

Still a very good point from you through, so thank you.

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Sasuda]

On 2018-05-11 at 2:25 AM, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

(Lots of good points)...the scaling is false...(Lots of good points)

On 2018-05-10 at 11:15 PM, taiiat said:

(Lots of good points)... Corrosive Status is permanent, Viral is not... (Lots of good points)

While I don't fully agree with these two guys, the points they are bringing up are really important and explain why some changes will be really bad for Saryn. I recommend taking a look at their posts.

1. Mostly Viral Corrosive damage switch being the very noticeably bad change to Saryn. There are so many reasons that it's not a good change. Spamming Miasma for Viral is nowhere near a good change. Armor Stripping via weapons is actually already quite significant and to better effect. Miasma made sense for the corrosive.

2. The whole infinite duration scaling thing completely contradicts the

On 2018-05-10 at 12:00 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

“set it and forget it” way of playing

that is supposed to be fixed. Honestly I don't think this was ever the case to use Saryn effectively you couldn't set and forget really. But if you could, the proposed changes would add to it not fix it.

3. Venom Dose change is also no good. Why would you want allies to use Corrosive over Toxin if Spores puts out all of the corrosive you'd ever want?

4. Removing her other synergies that weren't forced, along with the ones that were. Also just generally dropping the skill ceiling. Saryn may be confusing to get the most out of her, but her general play and options were actually relatively easy and straightforward. There are better ways of nerfing Molt + Spores combo that at least retain the point of attempting to use them together. Sure they will both have uses now but not together, Molt has returned to being a side ability you won't use that often. Toxic Lash is now just another always on buff for damage, like Accelerant but more of a set and forget for 45 seconds instead of having an intentional utility alongside damage bonus.

5. Miasma still is the main problem with the forced synergy. and again even moreso now that it doesn't stun more than once. Except now it doesn't do corrosive so building up the damage for it is not necessary or very useful and it's mainly a viral spam. And spamming being required since it's Viral and wears off.

6. Mechanically less interesting Saryn, maybe one with less confusing or weird issues. But also a rather plain one, again dropped the potential for high skill play here.

It's not like I'm saying don't touch her, or that all proposed changes are bad here. Toxic Lash being more applicable and Molt surviving a hit are improvements. Although I think potentially smarter and more interesting improvements have been suggested, they are at least fine. And the intended goals to fix are also good. This just isn't a good way to go about it, erasing rather than fixing synergies. Swapping ability functionality instead of tweaking mechanics. Kinda backtracking on the whole avoid overhauls in favour of tweaks conversations that happened after the first reworks.

Spoiler

Saryn's old problem  was spamming Miasma for damage, so it got over nerfed into a slow buildup with forced synergy. Spore was meh but new synergy made it spam for damage and really useful for spreading viral and lots of weird tricks for confusing results. Molt became overly efficient with using spores, but had some use outside the norm with becoming a spore mine and forced and a bit clunky bomb synergy to make Miasma actually do damage. Toxic Lash was basically the same but at least had a synergy to make it more interesting, mechanically it still needed work.
So now we're making Spore a slow buildup with a forced but not really useful synergy with Miasma, Molt being a weak synergy with Miasma and returning to mostly a defensive niche use, Toxic Lash being still mechanically uninteresting but at least always useful, and Miasma back to being energy hungry spam but keeping forced synergy and used for status instead of direct damage.
The reason overhauls like this were decided as generally not being the best route was because rebuilds created minor improvements that mostly moved problems instead of solving them, and they made the frames more confusing with all of the changes. Along with that it frustrated players with changes that left lots of new problems. Saryn's first rework was an improvement overall in my opinion with beginning to figure out what synergy could be and overall slightly improving her but swapped her less useful abilities since it wasn't tweaked well. Now instead of seeing the tweaks that need to be made were overhauling again leaving her with 3 useful abilities but not much in the way of mechanically interesting abilities, and 2 abilities that probably won't see much use. Seems like Molt and Miasma/Spores(depending on how it turns out which is effective) probably won't be used much in general play now. Or abilities will each be useful but not consistently. Each will be mainly used in specific scenarios without much synergy.

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Sasuda
Better explanation of quotes, grammar

[Ranzinzo]

I enjoy most of the rework, but there are two aspects of it that I think could be improved upon.

The first one is Toxic Lash. If Toxic Lash turns out to be a good ability, it will be the sort that you'd want to leave on forever. Meaning that when it time expires, you just recast it. There is no risk or decision making, just a key press once in a while. Honestly that sucks. Abilities are as fun as they are engaging. Many abilities have this problem in Warframe, including Defy, Vex Armor, Turbulence, etc. Since Saryn is getting a rework, this may be the right time to make Toxic Lash more dynamic.

There are a couple ways to do this and Harrow is the guy to go for. Harrow has very powerful abilities, including those long lasting buffs, but players don't usually spam them. This is because of two reasons: first, the ability has multiple effects at different times. This is the case of Covenant. Covenant has two very powerful effects: makes allies invulnerable and boosts critical chance. But the critical chance is based on the damage absorbed and you can't use Covenant again until it expires. This creates a decision making aspect. If you just spam Coveanant, you'll absorb no damage and get no critical chance. Giving Toxic Lash another effect could create a similar situation.

The second reason people don't spam Harrow buffs is because of drawbacks. This is the case of Penance and Thurible. The first removes all shield and the second has to be chagerd for a long time to be effective. Drawbacks help balance out powerful abilities and make them bad to spam. A drawback could be added to Toxic Lash alongside a buff to make it more interesting.

The other aspect of Saryn that I belive needs improving is the combination of Spores and Miasma. Spores can be cast a second time to detonate them. Miasma is an AoE damage ability. Both are intended to be massive nuke abilities and have too similar aspects. If Spore detonation is good, players won't cast Miasma that much. If Miasma is better, players won't detonate their spores. The two abilities compete within the same Warframe, and one of the is gonna be underused.

My suggestion is the removal of the spore detonation. Instead, casting Spores a second time would briefly paralyze all affected enemies at the cost of some stacked damage. This gives Saryn a great crowd control tool that can be used in moments of emergency. It balances itself out with the damage and doesn't require players to sacrifice all their Spores at once. Leave the area nuke to Miasma and give Spore some new mechanics.

[MacIntoc]

For Spore and Miasme, is it possible to change the nature of damage along corrosive, gaz, viral and poison (like the Hystrix) ?

Or have poison base damage and energy color change the nature of damage (green=poison, red=gaz, white=viral, blue=corrosive, like Chroma or Chromatic Blade) ?

And making Toxic Lash a drain power instead of temporary cast, there is no reason to break gameplay flow.

Edited May 15, 2018 by MacIntoc

[chaotea]

11 hours ago, Konachibi said:

Titania, who was super hyped up for months before release, is being completely ignored with no tweaks, reworks or just plain old fixes for her many problems.

Plenty of attention here: http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Titania#Patch History

Anyway. You may say that Titania didnt get as much attention as Khorna, but she got way more attention than, say, rhino. Newer frames get more post release focus with each new frame.

And again, i honestly think your overblowing the issue. Titania is fine. Maybe not my favorite warframe, but i'd choose her over syran or khora any day.

[XenMaster]

Make sure molt will scale its health with the level of the mission.

[blaes]

12 hours ago, Kalec said:

You have 3 ticks per second per enemy, that will stack up very fast

it will be nowhere near as fast as what can be done currently. when there is no spore left though, the stored damage will disappear just as quickly as it does now (which is instantly).

it took rebecca about 6 minutes to reach 2.5k damage on 8 enemies with 100%power strength. even with 300% power strength and 30 enemies at once (and let's be honest it'll be very hard to get past those values in any scenario), you'll get to about 30k damage in 6 minutes. 30k damage that we can currently get through toxin procs in less than 15s.

25 times as long to reach the same result. and the damage drops off just as fast. and considering those number, the "infinite" hard cap of 100k is actually pretty low (and very very long to reach). it's gonna be perfectly fine for starchart, sure, but if you want to get in endless modes, that's gonna fall off pretty quickly.

and that's just considering the numbers part of it. gameplay-wise, we switch from an ability offering the player lots of interactions to a cast (spread once) and forget.

dont get me wrong : i agree spores had to be reworked (i've even asked for it several times in the past), it was overcomplicated and wonky. i just dont think what's shown here is appropriate.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

16 minutes ago, blaes said:

it will be nowhere near as fast as what can be done currently. when there is no spore left though, the stored damage will disappear just as quickly as it does now (which is instantly).

it took rebecca about 6 minutes to reach 2.5k damage on 8 enemies with 100%power strength. even with 300% power strength and 30 enemies at once (and let's be honest it'll be very hard to get past those values in any scenario), you'll get to about 30k damage in 6 minutes. 30k damage that we can currently get through toxin procs in less than 15s.

25 times as long to reach the same result. and the damage drops off just as fast. and considering those number, the "infinite" hard cap of 100k is actually pretty low (and very very long to reach). it's gonna be perfectly fine for starchart, sure, but if you want to get in endless modes, that's gonna fall off pretty quickly.

and that's just considering the numbers part of it. gameplay-wise, we switch from an ability offering the player lots of interactions to a cast (spread once) and forget.

dont get me wrong : i agree spores had to be reworked (i've even asked for it several times in the past), it was overcomplicated and wonky. i just dont think what's shown here is appropriate.

spores was overcomplocated? cast spore and pop them? i see no complication here.... but corrosive spore not good idea, spores are fine as it is, molt and toxic lash need rework.

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

and again i will spam 🙂 no need for rework saryn spores, they are fine. molt and toxic lash are in need of rework. again cast spores and pop them are not complicated thing to do.  most of ppl are confused duo lack od game explanation of some ability. no explanation on which ability are affected by mods on weapons and which mods on frame. so player need to find other way on informing. in any case this corrosive spores rework thing are bad, whole "t-shirts are gone" thing can be done with cp aura and bild on weapons. so i think corrosive spores is STUPID idea to start with.

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

7 hours ago, Urlan said:

Perhaps you would like to run more missions first?

im almost 3k hours in, so id step down form ur podium... viral health having is only good with slash procs that bypass armor and do stupid damage

no where did i say viral was useless, but corrosive as a damage type in public is better, and not every single saryn goes out of thier way to play level 300+ with meta scum that keep getting things nerfed

let me ask u a question... how meany non-meta public games, of the sortie verity have you played?

Edited May 15, 2018 by (PS4)Spider_Enigma

[scourge213]

On 2018-05-14 at 9:49 AM, Oni_Spartan4 said:

For her fourth ability: "When recasting on the same enemy it will refresh the tick duration and maintain the Viral Status Effect, but will not stun enemies a second time." .... What?! Why?!   I primarily use this ability for the stun as a quick crowd control when things get too hairy but nerfing that seems totally unnecessary! Especially if I have to spend 100 energy on an energy hungry frame just to use it!  I suppose the main argument is that at max efficiency it only costs 25 energy to cast and can be spammed, but honestly, at only 15 meters base range I can think of quite a few better CC abilities that incapacitate more enemies for longer so I don't know why someone would optimize a build for this when they could just bring a better frame for the job, and for this reason this nerf particularly erks me. 

Actually read it again very closely. It says 'recasting', meaning within the duration of the previous cast. This means that DE are basically separating the toxic lash and the miasma CC. Especially considering that the miasma and lash durations are increased. If you want to spam miasma for CC, most likely you'll be able to with negative duration. However that partially kills the toxic lash. Ingenious from DE's side to be honest.

Though with a proper modding, at around 40% total duration, you would still have 2s miasma and 18s toxic lash. With the stun mechanic being around 2s at minimum, you would be able to stun-lock everything and will appreciate some of the damage from the lash.

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by scourge213

[(PSN)Spider_Enigma]

4 hours ago, blaes said:

it will be nowhere near as fast as what can be done currently. when there is no spore left though, the stored damage will disappear just as quickly as it does now (which is instantly).

it took rebecca about 6 minutes to reach 2.5k damage on 8 enemies with 100%power strength. even with 300% power strength and 30 enemies at once (and let's be honest it'll be very hard to get past those values in any scenario), you'll get to about 30k damage in 6 minutes. 30k damage that we can currently get through toxin procs in less than 15s.

25 times as long to reach the same result. and the damage drops off just as fast. and considering those number, the "infinite" hard cap of 100k is actually pretty low (and very very long to reach). it's gonna be perfectly fine for starchart, sure, but if you want to get in endless modes, that's gonna fall off pretty quickly.

and that's just considering the numbers part of it. gameplay-wise, we switch from an ability offering the player lots of interactions to a cast (spread once) and forget.

dont get me wrong : i agree spores had to be reworked (i've even asked for it several times in the past), it was overcomplicated and wonky. i just dont think what's shown here is appropriate.

spores do like no damage currently, they where showing 8k damage a tick with a really bad build when they showed it off 

[Urlan]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

im almost 3k hours in, so id step down form ur podium... viral health having is only good with slash procs that bypass armor and do stupid damage

no where did i say viral was useless, but corrosive as a damage type in public is better, and not every single saryn goes out of thier way to play level 300+ with meta scum that keep getting things nerfed

let me ask u a question... how meany non-meta public games, of the sortie verity have you played?

Every single sortie that has appeared, missing one - during War Within a bug stuck me in the Orbiter until it switched over. Though, at least it meant it was less likely to get to the consoles afterward. Last I checked, an Oberon, Gorgon Wraith, and co were not yet a meta. 😁 On PC just about every player you will get, random or allied, that thinks themselves a vet tends to have Corrosive Projection builds with a mixture of whatever 'best' build that everyone and their favorite Youtuber thinks is the ideal build. Its to the point that even on one of his few talky talk moments, DE Glen mentioned that he doesn't consider anyone who doesn't use Corrosive Projection a vet - and called players using Rhino, Boltor prime, and Carrier prime 'noobs' - but that isn't really the point fot this - so yeah, on PC using Corrosive Projection is pretty much considered the aura for what some consider high level play. You will find that Corrosive Damage, from spores is useful, but not better than Viral sporing the foes life. Absolutely useful, but a difference in scale - that armor is super high but it makes that life have a higher estimated value, essentially giving each point of life a bigger buffer; I halved it. With armor without armor. Now in the ideal situation, without armor from a helpful Corrosive projection team which is exceedingly likely in organized play and still quite common in all but starchart random, you don't even have enemy armor - though a Frost or even Oberon can help on that armor issue its another topic really. -and not only are you dealing some damage with viral though not enough at that level to be impressive but crushing their life to a half no matter what level it is. That is scaling, and pretty effective scaling; though not as much as Equinox or Trinity but pretty solid.

What will result is a warframe that has more early game power and absolutely more flexibility since Miasma might actually do status - but the warframe will lose spores on shed skin - but will lose her ideal scaling that is what has made her an ideal choice along with meta mods and gear, for Onslaught. It will remain to be seen how players adapt to this, I figure they will put her aside for higher level runsl but it will be interesting for a wee bit to say the least. 3k hours total or in game; If in mission, that isn't a low amount by any means! Still less than half the playtime of a few on PC but very respectable. I have around 10k in total time and around 7 in mission. Either way, consoles didn't exactly have the same time so I would put you pretty high in console time if that is in mission and at least not a new player if its total.

[LuckyCharm]

I'm very much looking forward to trying out this rework. I like the corrosive vs viral swap. It means growing power or another option is viable now rather than 100% needing corrosive projection. As for viral, and needing it to do damage, im sure many of you already run viral on melees or other slash weapons, though if i'm completely stripping enemy armor with it i'm totally going to run gas and the toxic lash augment. 

Molt seems to have a decent change too for the most part. Cant tell with miasma till i test it but it looks decent at what it does. 

[ThePredicament]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

spores do like no damage currently, they where showing 8k damage a tick with a really bad build when they showed it off 

Spores by itself? Yeah, sure. But that's not what the point the dude is trying to make. It does a S#&amp;&#036;-ton of damage when properly used, things like Blight procs will destroy whole rooms. Play her properly first, regardless of how many hours/xp you have, and then come back.

[blaes]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

spores do like no damage currently, they where showing 8k damage a tick with a really bad build when they showed it off 

casting spore on an enemy afflicted with toxin procs, then spreading those spores to other enemies, will carry the toxin procs as well. the whole point of the current spore implementation isn't the damage they do by themselves, it's the fact that they carry and spread the toxin procs from other sources (like your weapons). and that takes a few seconds to reach tens of thousands of damage. on the other hand, the new implementation will take several minutes and a lot of enemies infected to reach the same damage per tick.

and if you run out of enemies for any reason, you'll have to restart it from scratch. right now when that happens, the time necessary to regain relevant damage via toxin procs is counted in seconds. in the future, it will be minutes. for anything remotely high level, it's going to be a real pain.

Edited May 15, 2018 by blaes

[Cibyllae]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Very good point. At first, i didn't notice the most crucial part of this, that the enemy died before the spore was spread. I had assumed that the spore spread before the energy died, but it appears this is not the case. I originally thought Rebecca had toxic lash up, which is why i thought the prior.

This may explain the reasoning for the reduced range, but even so, throughout the video, range still seems a bit off. I had to go frame by frame to detect the fact that the spore spread on death of the enemy and not by the attack of the weapon, which didn't 1 hit the enemy.

So if that's the exact reason for this instance, then spores range is not line of sight or reduced.

I am still hesitant to call the myth busted because throughout the rest of the gameplay, the range doesn't seem to match current stats. Even so, i knew about spore spreading on death at half range. This is common knowledge, so putting the information here in the workshop had me assume that there was something new with this mechanic as if they intended to have it spread at full range. Again, DE didn't specify anything.

It took a Primetime question to even get the information about the toxin carry. I still would like clarification by DE so that we don't start assuming anything.

For all we know, they may have halved overall range but let spores carry for full range on death. Otherwise, why mention it in the notes as "the most likely portion of the rework to be highly reconsidered before launch." if it was there before the rework?

Still a very good point from you through, so thank you.

 

Nothing on you, my tone was towards the guy who red texted underlined "Please learn more about how Saryn works." I have nothing against you and whoever helped you do the work to figure out what was going on. By no means do I think Saryn is completely figured out, and I too would like Pablo to shed some light on the details of how Saryn works.

[(PSN)Timmy_642]

On 2018-05-10 at 2:23 PM, Finedaible said:

That's a lot of changes to check out. One question though, will spores still transmit Toxin status procs from infected enemies upon popping a spore? 

It is hard to say but I believe it will. But they may not even be needed due to how spores now work.