Melee: Present and Future goals!

[Omega]

Hard to say when the rework is unreleased, but from the notes I feel like the melee rework will be a nerf overall.  The loss of scaling combo counter is going to hurt Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds if they are left untouched.

Other than the fancy animations in the Dev notes, they should have made the UI open and the damage numbers visible

[Firetempest]

If you read the dev post going into it in more detail, they plan for combos to rack up ~a lot~ faster and this will perhaps let us reach multipliers non-macro users may have never reached before. And for them to 'maybe' be used to pull off heavy strikes. It's all still subject to change. So much is being changed at once you can't compare it to current standards.

[AnemoneMeer]

Personally, I'm really eager to see almost all of this. I'm really worried about how this will interact with Blood Rush and the Gladiator set bonus however. If those are retained for normals, and combo counter retains its status of "How to boost crit", I'd love this change. If combo counter centric builds are killed off and we fall even more into "Condition Overload on everything ever", we'll just be trading one demon for another.

 

Nerf condition overload to only apply on heavy attacks perhaps? Make it an execution tool while crit applies to all attacks?

[korndolorous]

once this update was released, don't forget to balance melee in conclave, I don't wanna see overwhelming unbalance again.

from what i see on this video is high mobility on jump attack, and long range melee.

and this is my suggest on balance in conclave 

• reduce range on normal attack
• remove SWORD ALONE mods because we have high mobility from jump attack
• remove knock down effect on jump attack

 

10 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

[ThatWildPanda]

1 minute ago, seprent said:

all it does it stop you from hitting things though walls you have to be able to see who your hitting so its like a pseudo nerf it fixes part of the problem 

I understand that this pseudo nerfs hitting thru walls. That's not the problem. Generally, people who Spin2Win speed thru the level with high octane and kill everything. What I'm saying is that if they are aiming to hit Spin2Win, there needs to be a solution to those mods that stack on combos. If there isn't, people will still use Maiming Strike WITH Blood Rush + Body Count, and STILL Spin2Win endlessly. If they do a hard nerf, Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, Relentless Combination and mods that rely on combo counters alike will be absolutely useless. It will effectively kill builds that rely on combo counters, not even mentioning Spin2Win right now. General crit/status builds will die if the way they're saying it is the way it's going to be.

Combo mods will become useless if they only affect heavy attacks. People are still going to press E with Berserker and no one will use Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds or Relentless. If it stays the same. people WON'T use the heavy attack. You neg more than you plus when you use your heavy attack when you're at an inate 4x multiplier on a Zaw weapon or something such as the Lesion with Weeping Wounds + Drifting Contact. Whether it be a status build or a crit build, DE needs to provide context with how multiplier mods will be affected. Otherwise, I agree with everything they're doing. Spin2Win is boring and cancerous and does not need to be the meta of the game when half of the population is paying for a mod that is inflated to all heaven (500-1000P), and it not even that good. You'd need Blood Rush + Body Count to make it work. The REAL nerf to Maiming Strike will come in the form of nerfing combo counters, which is why I asked for more context later on with whatever they decide to do. 

[chainchompguy3]

They're also taking a look at Range and Stance slash-archs / usage, so hopefully heavy attacks will be worth building up for.

Maybe not as worth building up for as Bloodrush, but I always felt that was kind of out of line to begin with.

 

As everyone else is saying:

A Plea for people with opinions like OP: Wait until it's released.

[DeMonkey]

Why are you pleading to us?

[Tain_OSkoom]

4 minutes ago, Firetempest said:

If you read the dev post going into it in more detail, they plan for combos to rack up ~a lot~ faster and for them to possibly be used as a currency of sorts to pull off heavy strikes. It's all still subject to change. So much is being changed at once you can't compare it to current standards.

This. If you got to a 5x multiplier in a couple seconds instead of an hour, and a heavy attack has a wide arc, autocrits, and has a 15m range, you'd probably come out ahead in certain horde scenarios.

It's probably more productive to come up with ways to make a no-details list of vague objectives fun instead of imagining the worst possible disaster scenario.

[amp_the_nation]

I really like the sounds of this so far.  One thing I thought would be cool is if you could, like for heavy attacks, use a chuck of your combo multiplier to do a finisher.  Obviously a bigger chunk than just a heavy attack.  Either way, sounds great!!!  

[Waffenheimer]

jesus.. if all they care about is the automation of dodging LoS... why not just remove Primed Reach?? and Reach??   
If they really wanted to make this game more "fun"....all this time they're spending "reworking every single melee weapon and most of their useful mods" could be spent improving the myriad of other issues this game currently has. 
 who is sitting around saying "gee if only I could melee differently this game would be pure gold"  DE that's who..

you know why people automate your game DE?? CAUSE IT NEEDS HELP IN ALL KINDS OF AREAS.  YOUR GRINDS ARE IMMENSE, PEOPLE GET BORED.  EFFICIENCY MATTERS.  ISNT THAT WHAT SIMARIS CONSTANTLY REMINDS US IN YOUR HOT NEW GAME MODE?!?!?!

 

[ElectroDbstp]

i think some weapons should be allowed to go trough walls, like the plasma sword, the zenistar secondary fire, and so on, maybe the range should be looked at, how can i get a melee weapon that has 15mts of reach? that's illogical

[seprent]

6 minutes ago, Waffenheimer said:

jesus.. if all they care about is the automation of dodging LoS... why not just remove Primed Reach?? and Reach??   
If they really wanted to make this game more "fun"....all this time they're spending "reworking every single melee weapon and most of their useful mods" could be spent improving the myriad of other issues this game currently has. 
 who is sitting around saying "gee if only I could melee differently this game would be pure gold"  DE that's who..

 

 

you do know a big mainline update is coming next week right?

[CupcakesMoo]

Speak for yourself. I don't use maiming strike. 

[Waffenheimer]

1 minute ago, seprent said:

you do know a big mainline update is coming next week right?

you do know that time is not an infinite resource right??

how many other "mainline updates" have been done to this game over the years and it still has issues and bugs that have been around for years.

do you really think the next patch will suddenly be the messiah after this track record?

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Waffenheimer said:

you do know that time is not an infinite resource right??

how many other "mainline updates" have been done to this game over the years and it still has issues and bugs that have been around for years.

 

yep your time is finite my time is finite everything times is finite 

hmm i can think of a few and i cant recall the last time i ever encountered them in past a few months 

[qscgg]

but they also mentioned to let combo stack easily... 

maybe we can use normal attack on weak enemy like butcher and heavy attack the strong enemy like bomber 

[--LENGEY--]

Hi Beyblade players i have a thing to say...

R.I.P, your rivens...your platins...your maiming strikes...ARE DED.

[NullusvultLatine]

That's sounds awesome. Can't wait to test this.

[seprent]

1 minute ago, lucasmolla said:

Hi Beyblade players i have a thing to say...

R.I.P, your rivens...your platins...your maiming strikes...ARE DED.

well it certainty cut some of their killing power but its not a big surprise now they are bound to killing enemies that they can see no more magic walls 

[--LENGEY--]

2 minutes ago, seprent said:

well it certainty cut some of their killing power but its not a big surprise now they are bound to killing enemies that they can see no more magic walls 

For sure this will make the things more "equilibrated" and the gameplay more fluid. An game with this action system is actual and good to our eyes. See players spinning like for 2h it´s a shame. But some people will hate DE for that nerf for sure XD

[JK21Games]

I am going to make some assumptions here. The first being that mods that apply to combo counter are hereafter going to be heavy attack only, so Blood Rush will be used for more oomph in Heavy Attacks, since if this isn't the case, nobody will ever blow a Blood Rush combo on a Heavy Attack. 😗

So after some more reflection, here's what we ultimately need changed if this goes through:

#1 - Melee damage needs to be brought up across the board to a minimum of 3-4 times the damage. High end melee weapons are extremely underpowered as far as damage is concerned compared to high end weapons. So, consequently, they need a lot more damage to warrent use if they must stand on their own.

#2 Since there is no way to increase Crit Chance from combo counter now, the only standard crit mod left is True Steel which gives +60% critical chance. This mod will need to be buffed to at least 120% to maintain good critical chance in the yellow/orange territory.

#3 - Similarly, since its harder to get high level crits, Organ Shatter would also be buffed from 90%+ damage to higher amounts.

#4 - Since Condition Overload scales from total weapon damage, it will naturally be adjusted down, but should have a proportionally similar effect (hence lower face damage numbers, but a similar overall benefit to what it currently has). In other words, the numbers on the card go down, but the damage bonus is effectively the same as it is currently to offer similar performance.

#5 - Crit melee weapons will require much higher base values since they will not scale from combo counter. Thus, you could easily see 30%+ as a more standard crit melee value with it going higher on more top end melees that would be aiming for more Orange level crits.

#6 - I will still defend the concept that channeling is ultimately a better/more potentially useful mechanic than blocking, and should be adopted and used to augment weapon abilities. See, while I think blocking should exist, we already have so many different ways to close gaps that it is one of the most situational melee maneuvers in the game. By contrast, if channeling had its own energy source like an Amp, it would straight up be widely useful and used. If you can somehow fit in a channeling toggle button for pure melee situations (While in pure melee mode, R and Square are free), it would really pay off I think And if you think about it, Channeling could be used to activate unique modes on weapons, which frees up heavy attacks/charged attack from having to do that. For example, channeling with a gunblade could switch it to its firing mode in contrast to its usual melee attacks. This makes the weapon extremely adaptable. A large number of other weapons could have something similar.

This also preserves all of the channeling mods that people care about like Life Strike, the faster movement speed, the situational stealth melee, etc. More importantly, your more powerful channeling attacks now benefit from focused mods, which makes them much stronger as a concept. As I suggested in an earlier post, the reload button while using pure melee is an idle and convenient toggle for this. So by all means, rework channeling, but remember that you give yourself the ability to create some pretty adaptive and unique weapons if you make use of channeling. Even if most weapons don't use channeling for anything but a damage boost/instant enemy disintegration, there are a bunch of others that can use it for cool special abilities. If you really want to go all out, some of the best melee combos could be activated when channeling. Thus, a standard melee spin attack could be turned into something more amazing while channeling. This solves a lot of the usability issues with current melee stances as well as taking them away from being button spam.

#7 - So for heavy attacks, I think focusing on these being epic semi-ultimate attacks is likely the right direction to go for them (I see the beginnings of this in your test videos, but taking them even more this way would be a cool way to go). Thus, you can clean out a bunch of small enemies with your standard attacks, and then unleash something like a deadly charge strike with a rapier to a single target, or maybe a 20 bladed spectral rapier attack that bleed procs all enemies in front of you (in another theoretical rapier stance), a leap strike that hurls a ton of spectral daggers into enemies in front of you for dual daggers, or an amazing 360 strike with a hammer that clobbers a bunch of enemies all around you for a hammer stance. See, already getting people excited about the potential here. 🙂 This preserves the distinction between attacks that you use normally, and the cool/flashy charged semi-ultimate attack. Perhaps when you rework the combos, how each weapon pulls off different basic/heavy attacks can be the focus to give a really unique feel to even basic actions in the different combos with the final reward being our semi-ultimate payoff. Then, if people see how effective these charged semi-ultimate attacks are, they are more inclined to invest mods into charging them up faster. If you take heavy attacks in this way, people will love you for it.

We need more clarification from the Devs on the Following:

How will Combo Counter interact with Warframe abilities that scale off of it such as Ash's Bladestorm or Atlas's Landslide?

Will the Combo Counter decay, or will it be charged and Stored (I speak for everyone when I say, we would kind of appreciate the extra mod space). 🙂

Can you tell us exactly what will be done with Blood Rush/Weeping Wounds/Condition Overload/Covert Lethality/Life Strike? These are the most important mods that could change in the upcoming rework, and a lot of the current uncertainty is drawn from the dev workshop being vague on this subject. I know that you likely want to draw a lot from community feedback, but an addendum to clarify this would help guide things in the right direction.

Anyways, thanks for the read. 🤗

[seprent]

Just now, lucasmolla said:

For sure this will make the things more "equilibrated" and the gameplay more fluid. An game with this action system is actual and good to our eyes. See players spinning like for 2h it´s a shame. But some people will hate DE for that nerf for sure XD

trust me mate anything DE does that isn't a hot-fix gets doomsayed like its the end of world as we know it like if i had a dollar for every thread i saw about X big change id have alot of dollars and i would take them in dollar coins so i can put them in a chest and have pirate treasure 

[Dreamer_Frisk]

Something I would like to see in regards to FX showing range is maybe a spectral or energy version of the weapon with it's shape adjusted to reflect the range a little better while swinging. Just me though.

[seprent]

1 minute ago, Tenno_Crusader said:

Something I would like to see in regards to FX showing range is maybe a spectral or energy version of the weapon with it's shape adjusted to reflect the range a little better while swinging. Just me though.

imagine someone wit ha neon engery color swinging a high range weapon god that neon streak gives me a head ache thinking about it 

[tprx]

11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

• While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
• Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
• We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.

Will you take steps to revisit the Zenurik Inner Might ability if you change how chaneling functions ie. if you get rid of the energy drain?