Melee: Present and Future goals!

[(XBOX)overspark118]

What will happen to the blood rush mod?

[(PSN)warcrow2047]

rn we don't know

[(PSN)warcrow2047]

1 minute ago, (XB1)overspark118 said:

What will happen to the blood rush mod?

rn we don't know sorry, we presume it won't be changed

 

[(XBOX)overspark118]

I like all the changes except for the heavy combo and that type of stuff. You know

[(XBOX)overspark118]

I'm kinda Skeptical

[Sonicbullitt]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)overspark118 said:

I'm kinda Skeptical

 yep i think most people are, the removal of combo counter on normal attacks and forced heavy attacks doesn't sound great, its creating more work for nothing. When in reality you don't need such heavy handed changes.

[Carnage2K4]

Quote

 Channelling: Let’s be real, Channelling gameplay and mods may not be a priority in your Arsenal, especially for a feature that takes up an entire button by itself. So we’re moving some of the mechanics of Channelling to the block button completely – normal blocking will now perform like channeled blocking currently does!

Quote

Heavy Attacks: Heavy attacks will now use the old Channelling button and will be powered by your combo counter. Part of this change includes improvements to charge attacks (goodbye false swings), ground slams (making them able to be directional), and more.

I would love some clarification on how this will work.

Context, I have about 4 channelling builds, they might not be the uber-best-ever-super-damage-frame, but they do the job at sortie or higher, and I enjoy using them, which is what I care about most.

Nekros, built to specifically use a Named Reaper Prime, the first keys used in every mission I enter with this frame are to change to Melee and Channel the weapon... I do not really use ranged weapons on this frame.
This is my peak of Personalization in Warframe, This Nekros has been my main frame for 2 years of playing, my only Prime Access was the Nekros pack, I use the Acanthus Prime Armour (glows when channelling) and even my Operator is build to match my Nekros Colour scheme... I need to Channel with this build to drain energy constantly, while Despoil drains HP and Equality gives me 2x the HP/Energy from every single orb I pick up. This build is entirely based around using channelling.

So I have to ask what the above quotes mean?
Is my Riven going to be made into some sort of blocking heavy mod?
Will my Acanthus Prime Armour only glow while blocking or doing a Heavy Attack?
Is my Named Reaper Prime about to become unusable? (the channelling damage strength is what keeps this weapon viable)... I'm already waiting to see what happens with the scythe changes... 😞
Is there still going to be an option to Channel a weapon for damage attacks?

As a side question, if blocking will now be a 100% block stat, what is the point of having 85% 65% 90% etc blocking on weapons?

I also use a Channelling build on my Valkyrie; Venka Prime with a Four Riders build, Life Strike, Warcry, She is unstoppable due to the healing factor.

My Harrow, I Channel a Fragor Prime (also a named weapon with a Riven) that I use with Penance and Thurible for crazy Red Crits even before Convent.

And I've recently been working on a Trin and Zaw Build trying to make use of the otherwise useless channelling Zaw Arcanes...

Is all that going to be destroyed by these changes?
Because the implication seems to be that there will be no way to channel a weapon while attacking normally, the button is going to Heavy... it's all either Heavy Attacks or Blocking...

I just want to know if I can still turn on channelling (I use the toggle) to drain Energy while I melee like I can now?

[Rukako122]

The fact that heavy attacks takes the whole combo counter is bad and the the fhe fact that blocking will still use energy is even worse.

[(XBOX)calvina]

Would've been cool if instead of building up a combo meter just to spend it all on a Heavy attack, rework the channeling system so it uses the combo meter as a resource.

Use your normal attacks as normal to build up the combo meter, the higher the meter, the more powerful the channeling effect comes when you do use it. Channeled attacks consume the combo meter while giving nice quirks, as opposed to a simple damage boost.

-Faster melee speed

-Small range increase

That sort of stuff, if you really wanna get creative, having channeled attacks act like a basic version of Excalibro's exalted blade would be cool. Or where slam attacks suspend enemies in the air as opposed to ragdolling, etc.

[Sonicbullitt]

1 minute ago, (XB1)calvina said:

Would've been cool is instead of building up a combo meter just to spend it all on a Heavy attack, instead rework channeling so it uses the combo meter as a resource.

Use your normal attacks as normal to build up the combo meter, the higher the meter, the more powerful the channeling effect comes when you do use it. Channeled consume the combo meter while giving nice quirks, as opposed to a simpel damage boost.

-Faster melee speed

-Small range increase

That sort of stuff, if you really wanna get creative, having channeled attacks act like a basic version of Excalibro's exalted blade would be cool. Or where slam attacks suspend enemies in the air as opposed to ragdolling, etc.

Hmm  that's actually not bad. i too think challenging can still be improved, limiting it to block only is a unnecessary.

[Ragingwasabi]

from how they worded it, i dont think u can. and i am devastated. channeling is currently in a bad state but its still a cool concept. its got cool visual effects and some what ties in to lore (void energy and what not). so its just a really cool way to buff up damage. and on top of that, we have lifestrike; giving us us the ability to lifesteal when channeling. i absolutely love the concepts here. very upset DE are removing it completely instead of just buffing the numbers.

energy efficiency is a problem when comparing slow hitting weapons to fast hitting weapons. yet that can be solved easily by giving channeling a constant energy drain unaffected by number of enemies hit or bullets blocked.

damage boosts are small, so just buff them?

theres some other stuff u can do to make channelling good. even make lifestrike an innate feature of channeled attacks, increase attackspeed, increase crit/status etc. have a look at the hundreds of posts on buffing melee channeling on this forum. theres so many options to make channeling NOT bad. but they prefer to just remove it. such a waste

 

[Zilotz]

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

But spin to win and melee going through walls - should it stay the way it is?

I think yes as it is often the only good enough option.

Especially going thru walls because there is almost always some enemies behind walls/objects.

Enemies simply hide eveywhere.

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.

You forgot something - chanellig is  a way to destroy bodies so othe enemies won't react!

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily.

This part is good.

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

But this is horrible - it simple makes combo counter useless and any builds using it will be useless too!

This simple can take away 90+% of melee damage on higher levels(and we already lack the damage there so it will get much worse).

14 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

•  Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks

Thanks, but flat damage you add cannot compensate scaling damage we have(before the nerf you plan). 

Combo counter and mods araound it is the only way to scale the damage. 

Please consider rethinking of it like you did with IPS rework, i feel your ideas are not bad but you did not think of everything(so if implemented as it is infirst message  it will be GIANT nerf to whole melee system). 

[Carnage2K4]

1 hour ago, DeMonkey said:

They don't listen to us though, especially when we post feedback in General Discussion is my point. 

Reminded OP of this on several occasions.

Maybe you should say where they should be posting as well...

[Sonicbullitt]

1 hour ago, Zilotz said:

I think yes as it is often the only good enough option.

Especially going thru walls because there is almost always some enemies behind walls/objects.

Enemies simply hide eveywhere.

You forgot something - chanellig is  a way to destroy bodies so othe enemies won't react!

This part is good.

But this is horrible - it simple makes combo counter useless and any builds using it will be useless too!

This simple can take away 90+% of melee damage on higher levels(and we already lack the damage there so it will get much worse).

Thanks, but flat damage you add cannot compensate scaling damage we have(before the nerf you plan). 

Combo counter and mods araound it is the only way to scale the damage. 

Please consider rethinking of it like you did with IPS rework, i feel your ideas are not bad but you did not think of everything(so if implemented as it is infirst message  it will be GIANT nerf to whole melee system). 

I agree, this is almost as bad as the IPS rework, lets hope they think a little more on these changes, cause removing combo counter like this ruins so many mods and makes the combo counter useless, it is almost as if they forgot the reason why the combo counter was put into the game. It was to help with damage scaling later in the game, these changes could potentially set us back pre shadow debt and even pre damage 2.0. Lets hope they will reconsider, like they did with the damage 2.5, as right now this needlessly complicates things and unnecessary changes, when what was needed was tweaks not a whole revamp. Channeling can still be redeemed, too it does not have to be entirely relegated to heavy attacks and blocking.

[LupisV0lk]

16 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

Maybe you should say where they should be posting as well...

...are you serious? Are you legitimately serious?

I mean it's not like there's a whole stub called "Feedback"

[(PSN)AbBaNdOn_IGN]

All that will be left of channeling is a block button.....

Channeling should just be IMPROVED not gutted completely from the game.   

Crit Build should be left alone.  

Light/Strong should die in FIRE.   

Channeling deserved huge damage bonus or a growing damage bonus based on hit count.   Channeling would have been great if it BUILT energy instead of consumed it.  Channeling would have been a nice alternative to Crit builds if it let you gain more loot/affinity from enemies.   

But no, they are deciding to "simplify" melee combat just because some jerks enjoy slide killing non stop and through walls.   

The ONLY thing I saw that I like about new combat was  directional ground slams.  Ground slams were always a pain in the butt to do lol.  

[AlphaPHENIX]

I still renember my days of having light shows in dark areas with channeling to help myself memorize stance combos...sence the Earth redesign, my favorite and only spot has been destroyed by lightbulbs...and now this. Sad times indeed, comrades.

[SilverRook]

Never used channelling due to power creep and it sapping my energy pool - needed for other skills.

 

[Carnage2K4]

5 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

...are you serious? Are you legitimately serious?

I mean it's not like there's a whole stub called "Feedback"

Yes, because as we can clearly see it's not obvious to everyone, and just saying "don't post here" does not clarify the alternative to the point being made...

[LilDanteDubz]

Well if you are removing melee attacks to penetrate walls because.. well.. Spin2Win am I right?

Then I'm guessing that we should look forward to Ability Cooldowns

Like seriously any frost prime with efficiency mods and primed flow can spam their 4 on a defense mission until they die of old age.

And also add mods to reduce the cooldowns.

also, same thing with banshee, ember, zephyr, nezha, mirage, rhino, limbo, vauban etc.

Without ability cooldowns the game is just a boring farming simulator and I'm sure that you are not trying to make a game like that.

Also.. Nerf Octavia.. No like seriously.. She is one of those frames that stands out because when you get a kill on a level 150 bombard with anything else you are just like "Hey look I got a kill.. Cool!" and with Octavia you are doing nothing but somehow you are killing stuff, and when you kill 5 level 150 bombards you be like "Wow... I still feel like I'm useless.."

[(XBOX)Bunny Mittens]

I am kind of concerned. The focus on heavy and slam attacks sounds fun and fitting for a weapon like Galatine or Scindo, but I don't want to concentrate on slamming or single heavy attacks when using Venka Prime for example. That is a weapon that focuses on combo counter and lots of fast, "weak" attacks. And that is fun, hacking and slashing through hordes of enemies with the combo counter growing to insane numbers.

Currently I feel like weapons similar to Venka Prime have no place in the game after the changes to the system.

Of course this just my first impression after the gameplay demo during dev stream. Hopefully you will prove me wrong.

[Kboy2608]

I hate to say it but i think there are many problems might happened when the change come.. 

First of all, i agree that camping and sliding is definitely not fun. But make all the melees cant hit trough walls will not only kill that play style, but every other style that based on long range weapons as well. You can explain that it's unrealistic to hit through object, but let's applying our game concept here. Except POE, more than 90% of our contents (including Onslaught, the newest game mode) are using "normal" designed maps which tons of obstacle, stairs, corridors and walls. If people are forced to run around those things trying to hit mobs, how can long range weapons can even compare to short range ones which can hit harder, faster and has better overall moves sets. And if we being realistic here, long two-hand weapons were never been intended to be used in that case of combat environment, Only extremely short range weapons are suitable, which means anythings beside daggers and machetes weapons have been put in the game were wrong in the first places. Furthermore, if there are too many people abuse using that one kind of mods in a specific type of mission, why go around and making serious impact on others but dont simply straight up nerfing those type of mods or make change in the mission? Like what DE do in kuva survival, it's a damn tier 3 survival with stronger mobs and S#&$ but nobody camp!!

For the combo counter part, i think it is just so wrong. There are tons of people discussing about the mechanic and S#&$ so i dont want to repeat those knowledge again. I just have 1 single thing to say. Like DE needs to add thousands and thousands of base damage to compensate the lost in combo counters, what might be a possible consequence? Newbies will be able to 1 hit everything in the star chart using their not well- modded melees without considering any combo counters and S#&$ while veterans will struggle killing high level MOBs with their normal attack. Dont  you guys think that kind of change may push new players away due to boredom and long-time players away due to rage and confusion?  

P/s: I may complain too soon but i love melees in this game more than anythings and all those changes seem too bad in my opinion. So i rather complain first before somethings (potentially) very bad happen!

[Oreades]

I guess, I know I only channel when I toss my Zenistar disk (RIP) and I didn't even do that very much. 

Edit: Oh yeah and the two times I tried to channel to stealth kill with Ivara 

[Leorion]

I have been looking forward to the melee change for quite some time, but I'm not sure this is the correct way to go about it. I agree that the idea of spinning through walls (and Meme Strike, in general tbh) is too much and it makes sense to restrict it like that, but I don't think that deals with the root problem Melee is facing. Melee is one of my all-time favourite attack methods. It is a unique and critical aspect to the entire space-ninja idea, but at the moment it has been scaled badly so that a couple of weapons dish out obscene damage and others are not even worth picking up. I'll try and point out my thoughts regarding aspects of Melee to the best of my ability :)

Channeling

The idea of switching to melee-only is great, and using your weapons to block is also great but the energy cost of it all is the main reason I've never used it outside of leveling. Why am I forced to spend valuable energy and mod slots to get blocking and channeling mods? Channeling efficiency, damage, etc provide an unneeded aspect and complexity to melee that would be better without. We have damage, and utility mods for Primary and Secondary and yet for melee, we are forced to add mods for Damage, Utility, Combo and Channeling - which is too much. Especially that melee is still faced with the inherent disadvantage of not nuking enemies not close to you. My weapons & abilities can kill enemies near and far; whereas Melee forces me to run up to them, getting knocked down, and getting hit in the process.

The new mechanic that is to replace Channeling should provide a way to replace the energy cost for something more reasonable - perhaps a "weight" aspect that will determine how easily you can block, or attack. Daggers should allow you to move about quickly and dish out critical damage near enemies, and block a sure 70% of damage every second due to their size. Whereas Heavy Blades can block 100% of damage but every 3 or 4 seconds due to their weight. I'm not exactly sure, but the energy cost - and the excessive mods surrounding it need to be addressed as well.

TLDR : Energy cost too much. Too many systems in melee, not enough mod slots. 

 

Melee Combo

In theory, it sounds great but having to quickly run to find another enemy to hit within 3 seconds or lose all of your combo is punishing. You shouldn't need extra mods or a specific warframe to have a reasonable combo counter. I hate using the combo counter for this exact reason. Mods to boost my damage, or utility mods to make it more fun are replaced by mods to give me a fair combo counter. The entire idea is daunting and I believe it needs a rework. The Combo Counter should reward you for using Melee throughout the mission - and not punish you for no enemies spawning within a 3 second radius. It's not even practical in normal missions due to the spread of enemies.

The Combo Counter needs a ground-up rework to mimic the Sniper combo duration. The more you attack with it, the more it goes up. The more combos you perform, the more it goes up. If you miss or get blocked, you lose a tick and so on with a reasonable degradation. If such a system is in place, when loading into the mission I'd be more than happy to just go melee-only and get on with it instead of just using quick-melee.

TLDR : Timed combo duration is punishing, Combo Counter mods dilute melee mods. More practical and fun combo rework needed.

Specialisation by classes

I am sure such a thing already exists somewhat (like with Sword and Shield) but giving inherent advantages to specific weapon classes will provide much-needed diversity and choice to melee. The current critical and status-relying melee creates an unquestionable tier of weapons that if ignored, only punishes you in harder content. Why does the Fragor Prime, a hammer weapon, have the highest critical chance? Shouldn't such a figure naturally go towards a precise-attack dagger? I am not asking for the stats to be changed but inherent advantages to be taken into consideration.

Example :

If I am doing a stealthy, single-target attack, I want to take a Fang Prime, so Daggers (already with the shortest range for single-target) should have an inherent 50% increase in Critical Chance (Example), with a Dagger-counter that increases with each Critical Hit. 

If I want to go attack multiple medium-range targets, Dual Swords with an inherent advantage of going up twice as fast in Combo Counter, and offering a 50% damage increase if you hit the same target with both weapons would be ideal.

If I want something to cleave the infested with, a massive blade already with such slow attack speed, like the Glaive Prime, I should be able to get base damage increase per enemy killed in a single attack. Something that wouldn't be very ideal for single-target. I could come up with countless examples such as Scythes having life-steal in them, or Whips providing a Warframe speed increase but that's the basic idea in my mind.

 

Thanks for reading :) 

[(PSN)Gin_Da_Merciless]

Ok finally doing melee now. First i would like to say thanks DE for all the work you guys put in to this game.  Keep up the good work.  

First i was thinking that maybe we could use some of the other buttons and change the way some work. For instance, when in melee mode tapping the weapon swap button wouldnt switch to another gun but instead be apart of a melee combo or the actual heavy attack itself just for easier access over the old channeling button.  The channeling can instead be used to swap through any stances you may have while changing the style of attacks mid combo or some form of end to the combo letting you know that you’ve switched.  Im hoping you’ll have access to all stances u have already collected.

The reload button, which has no use in melee whats so ever, can be used for certain situations.  Along with being a button you use to do the other combos in a stance when not meleeing and your in melee mode it could be the stealth kill button so that you no longer have to stop killing hordes to kill a single target cause they were under an effect of a warframe ability. 

Air combos should be a thing and the only time you should ground slam is if you hold down the melee button while in the air. I can understand if that could be a little tricky so im not to worried about it atm.  A big issue i have with melee is when im trying to melee at an enemy that is either high or very tiny so i was wondering if there was a way for us to get kinda of an exalted view kinda view for melee so that we can properly deal with those cralwers and flying drones.  Maybe make it to where while your blocking first instead of melee you can do aim meleeing.

Thats all i got atm lol. Let ne know what u guys think.