Melee: Present and Future goals!

[QQQQMkII]

First off 

I hope you all love that mocap studio- seems like you are planning to redo the animation for pretty much every combination 

 

Second 

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

This can be ok or very bad

ok implementation 

 

melee attacks don’t do damage to any enemies hit on the other side of a  object

 

bad implementation 

 

if if the swing hits and object it stops and the character plays a “staggered “ animation 

 

That would turn reach into a bad thing, or create a need for alternative choke-up/poke combos

 

 

 

[Fire2box]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)DAVEGADGETBOY said:

Has anyone said what's going to happen to all our melee rivens with channelling damage on them, or those exodias that currently provide a boost to channelling damage?

I assume converted to straight damage. 

[Petroklos]

So the way I'm reading it, holding M2 acts like current Channeling Block, which never felt good.

It would be great to have a small window when we begin blocking, with increased damage/resistance or reduced channeling cost, or both, to emulate the feeling of perfectly times parries from hack'n'slashers. (and then add a sparring weapon that slows enemies on perfect parries *cough*witchtime*cough*)

Shields on the other hand could have no reflect, but perfect guard with no energy cost. Kinda lame, but a significant differantiator.

A new animation for parrying would also be cool, because the current spinspinspinspin isn't that cool looking.

 

Finally, do not completely remove Combo Bonus from Light attacks.

The design implies that we should build Combo killing regular enemies with Light Attacks and then spend Combo to kill stronger enemies with Heavy Attacks, which is cool and clever, but having the combo counter completely ignore light attacks is a bit anticlimactic.

Maybe retool/introduce a Mod to do that, or have different Combo multipliers for Light and Heavy Attacks. The modifiers could also be different from weapon to weapon, allowing for even more variety in our melee options.

 

All of my yes to every other point. (DUAL WIELDING SHOTGUNS, REDEEMER AND MARA DETRON BAYBEE, WOO) 

[Kaminarion]

Can we get 30 pages of player base rage? ^_^

[BombtailsTheFox]

17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

As for the rest of the steps? What follows is an open door to what we're working on internally. This may not release exactly as described here, but we want everyone to be on the same page of what our plans are.
 

• While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
• Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
• We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
• Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.
• Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
• You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!
• Dodge canceling any melee attack!
• FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
• Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 

And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

• Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
• Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
• Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

While the melee revisit would be nice on paper, it has some bad and good flaws:

1)The large problem with Channelling is ENERGY DRAINING. I get that some weapons like the Synoid Heliocor lives for Channelling attacks, but energy draining is not cool. It also wastes the space for mods. Oh, and another thing: What the hek is Focused Defense supposed to do? It's near useless, why you would even use it?

2)Ugh, costant energy draining...That doesn't sound like a pleasant idea.

3)Why i would even perform an heavy attack, if i could just increase my combo to help Weeping Wounds and Blood Rush? It makes no sense.

4)Mhh, slam attacks would be good. I'll say that because weapons such as Hammers and Heavy Swords has a good slam attack.

5)Dual wielding...Kinda interesting.

6)Dodging might be useful.

7)I don't know, would you add a "Range" counter on the weapons, so we can know how much range they get when we use mods such as Reach?

8)Let's hope those adjustement would be nice.

9)???

10) Let's hope it would be, Fang Prime needs big buffs.

11)wut?

[DukeAshura]

I generally favor most of these changes; but I have a few concerns.

• Melee not Going Through Walls and Objects
  • I'm mostly for this; but perhaps there could be a little leeway? As it stands, I've encountered instances where enemies can spawn in walls or beneath the floor, and I'm worried that It'd be impossible to progress should they spawn in a defense or interception mission.
  • Maybe just have a small amount (like 3m) of a "clipping range" where weapons can extend through the wall; which'd also prevent the problem of small bits of level clutter getting in the way.
• Channeling Removal and Blocking Changes
  • I don't remember the last time I've ever channeled, so removing channeling doesn't bother me.
  • Blocking changes I'm iffy on. If blocking costs energy. I don't want to have my energy drained because I aimglided with my melee out and an enemy shot at me.
  • Perhaps instead of blocking costing energy and reflecting damage, it should instead give the player some kind of meaningful reward. Perhaps it should give the player energy for bothering to block and approach instead of nuking the enemy from half a room away?
• Combo Counter
  • As I'm sure the dev's already know by now, the players don't like this. Considering endgame (Level 150) melee builds rely on the combo counter for damage, this basically renders melee useless in endgame.
  • By the time I get in, get a combo going, and try to land a heavy attack, all the enemies probably would have been killed by other players with guns.
  • Faster combo buildup helps, but the players are still unlikely to see the benefit.
  • Adjusting the numbers to compensate helps, but I think I've come up with a good solution that serves as a blend between the current system and the proposed changes.
    • Player's build up and benefit from their damage multipliers as normal (1.5x, 2.0x, ect.)
    • Instead of reseting after 3 (or more with mods) seconds, the damage multipliers instead degrade; running down in reverse (2.0x, 1.5x, 1.0x). This allows for leeway when moving between groups of enemies. Perhaps to compensate, the strength of mods that increase combo duration can be reduced.
    • Upon using a heavy attack the combo multiplier degrades by one level. However, in exchange, the damage multiplier is doubled in strength for heavy attacks. (2.0x becomes 4.0x for heavy attacks, for example.)
    • This encourages players to go all out on tough enemies with heavy attacks without unfairly punishing them for doing so.
  • I'm mixed on the new Slam attacks. IMHO, the charge up time at the start of the attack is too long; preferably, I should be able to click and immediately shoot down. However, I do like the ability to aim the slam attacks.
• Dual Wield Melee's and Secondary's
  • YES YES YES YES YES

As I said, I do like most of these changes; but in my opinion the changes to the combo counter and damage multiplier aren't for the better. I'm looking forward to seeing how the dev's respond to the feedback here.

[Guest]

I still don't understand why they don't just bring back stamina and use it for blocking and only blocking.

In fact, why channeling used Energy when the stamina bar once existed and was discontinued I will never understand.

[Sonicbullitt]

1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

I still don't understand why they don't just bring back stamina and use it for blocking and only blocking.

In fact, why channeling used Energy when the stamina bar once existed and was discontinued I will never understand.

the original way stamina worked was a problem, however bringing it back for just blocking and melee channeling might actually be a pretty good idea. All i know is that channeling cannot take energy for it to be useful, it needs to consume another resource.

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

17 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

Love what y'all are doing. Cause melee right now is lackluster. But the only thing that has me worried is the heavy attack using (ALL) the combo counter. Hopefully the combo counter goes up so fast that it doesn't matter if we use it all on a heavy attack or make it were we don't use all but a fix amount. Can't wait, might start using melee only after this rework.

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

11 minutes ago, DukeAshura said:

As it stands, I've encountered instances where enemies can spawn in walls or beneath the floor, and I'm worried that It'd be impossible to progress should they spawn in a defense or interception mission.

Yea this does happend. Hopefully de can fix this and make sure it doesn't happen. But this is bugframe😂😂😂 so I don't know

[XhaltY]

Honestly, this change was completely unneeded, In my opinion DE, something that isn't fun to you, doesn't mean it isn't fun to us. All your doing so far you completely killing crit, considering blood rush and maiming strike nerf. I understand nerfing Maiming Strike, but the combo system doesn't need change, the heavy attack idea theoretically seems interesting , but stuff like polearms , whips and some other melee types don't have a logical charge/ heavy attack, regardless , my idea is to just keep the combo system so that Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds and the damage multiplier would work. Maiming strike can get the nerf, but no need to change the combo system. The heavy attack concept is good, but Don't make it use up combo counter.

 

Solution : Keep combo as it is, nerf maiming strike, don't NERF RANGE, Theres nothing to nerf range for, keep it going through walls.

[Kinetos]

1 hour ago, viperveteran said:

I too use channelling builds and would also like some clarification on what they meant because, I am guessing here, most of the people who used channelling builds don't even care about channel blocking and most of the people who even choose to channel only do so for lifestrike.

I use channeling builds if I want to do a stealth mission so that there are no bodies to be discovered. I also use channelling builds on my melee brawler frame loadouts like my Ash and Excal, they need lifestrike to survive so if melee attack channelling is being changed it will make their builds less self sufficient.

Please clarify DE

Same for me. I never channel blocked. I almost never block at all. I Take damage to gain energy to fuel abilities and lifestrike, throwing energy away on blocking damage is counterproductive. The only reason I block is shockwave/hook spam if im not midswing with one of the weapons that ignores it while swinging. Oh, or if I'm aim gliding. Putting 3 different functions on 1 button is not something I would consider ideal...

1 hour ago, Oreades said:

I got the impression that the channeling exclusive mods would be converted in some way to work with a post channeling melee system. 

Yes they made an incredibly vague statement that they would be looking at mods.

So they have no idea what they are doing yet, and it doesn't help us prepare ourselves at all whether ingame or mentally. They don't even know how blocking will work. If it drains energy by default, what happens when it runs out? Can't block any more?

 

For myself, I don't care too much about channeling and modding channeling itself, as long as lifestrike survives in some way whether it remains tied to channeling or not. Because that's all I use it for.

would be a shame to lose the visual fx and the disintegration is supposed to be useful for stealth, but making them always on would be too much.

 

Random speculation time:

What if blocking charges a channeling meter based on how much damage blocked, which drains over time, but attacks with meter charge available are considered channeled, damage bonus = percent of the meter filled, and the fx show when meter is not empty. Stealth finishers could also charge it perhaps.

[Zanchak]

I like melee as it is. All that needs changed is melee going through walls and objects so the auto spammers can't just wedge in a corner. Everything else is fine. I don't understand the constant wheel of adding new gameplay then punishing people for finding efficient ways to play it (not including the automated bores that ruin things for everyone). Sucking the fun out of everything is not fine.

I also don't understand the maiming strike panic. Unless you're camping in corners the mod should still work fine when used as intended. On the flip side, people always crying about it need to get a grip, its a single mod, not an equinox nuking the whole map around you.

[Diezen]

RIP in Peace Atlas and Khora, gonna end up losing 2-3.5x damage from those abilities with the loss of combo multi... Going to have issues killing armored Kuva Flood and later sortie enemies yet again. 

Hopefully something is going to be done to compensate with the loss of combo multi, otherwise it's an Atlas nerf. RIP. Also Naramon.

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

2 minutes ago, Zanchak said:

I also don't understand the maiming strike panic. Unless you're camping in corners the mod should still work fine when used as intended. On the flip side, people always crying about it need to get a grip, its a single mod, not an equinox nuking the whole map around you.

So trueI don't know y people keep saying it's getting nerf when it's not u still will be able to get red crit but u just won't be able to do it behind walls. So plz stop saying it's going to get nerf😒😒😒😒

[(PSN)Zer0-Rama]

2 minutes ago, Diezen said:

RIP in Peace Atlas and Khora, gonna end up losing 2-3.5x damage from those abilities with the loss of combo multi... Going to have issues killing armored Kuva Flood and later sortie enemies yet again. 

Hopefully something is going to be done to compensate with the loss of combo multi, otherwise it's an Atlas nerf. RIP. Also Naramon.

Um atlas yea but khora no. Unlike atlas she adds to the combo counter.

[(XBOX)CAMMOsamax]

I think the ideas presented sound good on paper but when using melee I tend to just spam the fastest highest dps combo to murder rooms and I find that super fun on my nekros with the hulking mass of overcompensation (galatine prime) so I probably won't even touch the heavy attacks as they're too slow 

Similar thing far channeling, it was underused because of the energy drain so even if merged with blocking I can't see a reason to use it 

[(XBOX)zorroporro]

A lot if seems fine. Not having 300 different combo executions surely helps, and if there would be just a few standard combos with somewhat similar flow, it would encourage people to try and actually use different moves. Nerfing of overkill range is alright with me - but then again, one of the strengths of Warframe is how you can - with time, effort and plat - feel incredibly powerful, and really make the builds destructive without seemingly too intrusive limitations. That's what Warframe is for me: it's a playground where I can become OP in ridiculous ways if I know what I'm doing. I understand when something is overkill, but I hope Warframe would remain a game where one can really stretch the builds and their capabilities. That's the biggest draw for me in this game. And I don't even use "spin to win". So I understand, but I'm kind of worried at the same time. So many games are too obsessed with having players have fun "the right way", and often the games will end up having intrusive limitations.

 

About channeling, and "We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat." The cool factor is the second biggest reason why I like this game. No matter what it is: a cool mechanic, cool visual/sound effect, sometimes just an idea or a gimmick. There are many of them, and I appreciate each and every one, regardless of how often I use it or not. Every moment where I see something neat, unnecessary or not, I'm thinking of a dev team that likes to have fun, experiment and share that fun with us. It's great. Something like channeling is amazing. It's a neat touch, and especially with the introduction of riven mods, I could really make some amazing channeling builds with very little energy consumption and channel away to my heart's content. Now I feel like that's all for nothing, and that in the future I'd have less options if channeling is taken away. I'd lose the "this is neat, I love how they came up with this" feeling, and I'd lose a viable build option - which is a direction I do not want WF to go in any degree - making melee weapons just a tad more boring. I hope you don't take away channeling, but more than that, I hope you guys don't underestimate the power of 'cool factor'. Without it, I probably wouldn't be playing this game. If WF was just about loot, and not about all the cool stuff you can do, it would become boring quickly.

I'm not sure what to make of the heavy attack, where heavy attack consumes the combo counter. Is it that you want to have people using heavy attack more? I don't know what to say, because once again I'm seeing the loss of something: blood rush+combo duration builds. Those builds helped me embrace the stance combos in general, and it made melee fun for me when I was a little less experienced with the game. I don't like the idea of heavy attacks being something you "have" to use. So I'm worried about losing another viable build (in addition to channeling riven builds), and I fear the melee combat could become more boring down the road, and in some ways more restricting and forcing the players to take a certain route, than fun. That said, if you guys can come up with ways to make more builds viable without taking all of the edge from the current ones, that could be great. 

TL;DR: Cool factor is cool, don't lose it. Also make sure you're not restricting players' ways to have fun and build their weapons too much, and make room for more viable builds instead of destroying the current ones and forcing in 1-2 new ones that would be the new meta.

[Unktena]

I haven't looked through 27 pages of stuff, but will the new system allow you to channel execute enemies. It destroys the corpse which was nice for stealth.

[Kainosh]

Forgot to say that I would like melee to be viable VS Bosses.

Melee will be good when ALL of the starchart is doable with basic Skana alone (or other one handed sword). 

Here is my mediocre idea of how to make it possible to deal with some "hard to reach" things.     Can be replaced by aerial combos, but i think that latch will allow more...precision.

 

  About slam attack

Should remain vertical (as it is).   I really dont like what You guys came up with.  There is absolutely NO issues with current slam attack. I like it as it is and i really dont want any change.

[CerebrateJoe]

18 hours ago, lihimsidhe said:

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system. 

"Briefly"  lol

But anyway, I believe that a bunch of DE did work on Devil May Cry.  I was wondering if anyone remembered which dev stream they talked about it?  I'm sure OP would love to know more about that connection.

[Ubarruk]

With Melee revisit can we have the Telos boltace be useful again?

[lihimsidhe]

6 minutes ago, CerebrateJoe said:

"Briefly"  lol

But anyway, I believe that a bunch of DE did work on Devil May Cry.  I was wondering if anyone remembered which dev stream they talked about it?  I'm sure OP would love to know more about that connection.

Um if that's true you bet your Tenno ass I would!  If that's true I would love to hear what they think about the current combat system unfettered.

[Extroah]

As a melee enthusiast i'm pretty hyped about it. It will also be funny to see people that can't reach higher stages in onslaught without maiming strike high range cheat builds cry about it. (looking at you, certain youtubers)

[Edzhang]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

 

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

While i do agree that melee attack shouldnt go through walls, there’s sometimes when enemies were spawned inside walls or trapped underground.. if it happen on wave 8 defense sortie, what we should do? Abort our mission just because we cant kill them? I think DE need to either fix the spawning problems or simply reduce our current melee range when facing the wall, like we need some punch through to be able to shoot through object with primary and secondary.. 

For combo counter, i think instead of all point are spent on one single attack, it’s better to have like fixed amount of number every time we do our heavy attack, like 30 or 50 counter points.. but we’ll see if this needs to be fixed on its release.. 

Anyway, cant wait to see what will happen to fang prime, gram, and all staves (i love this category).. love the new slam attack..