Jump to content

Melee: Present and Future goals!


Recommended Posts

Wow, that was fast.

Edit: Okay, so my post ends here, as little as that is. Apparently, many posts got merged into mine, and I only found out after getting a message from @lihimsidhe, whose content is demarcated below, as requested. Guess I've found myself the de facto curator of some other people's content. I work the next few days, but if anyone else would like to receive credit for their own posts, message me and I'll get to it when I can. We're working on the honors system here, as that's all I can manage.

 

Thank you for the workshop! That was quick, gonna read it.

EDIT: Well I read itl, I heard this on the Devstream, but if the combo counter is going to be removed from having any effect on basic attacks, the damage of melee weapons will need to be brought up significantly. These days, using the combo counter to ramp up your damage is a staple, and it'll be a huge nerf if we lose that multiplier effecting our basic attacks.

My other questions is about mods like Blood Rush, will they continue to have an effect on basic attacks? Or will they too only apply to the heavy attack? Lastly, will we get an increase for the decay timer on Melee combo counter or will the lower hits per tier make this a non-issue?

 

I noticed the channeling changes when I watched devstream 111 and I wonder what's happening to life strike? Will I still be able to use it as a reliable source of healing?

 

I'm looking forward the changes 🙂

Spin to win is efficient but definitive not the most enjoyable way playing warframe ^^'

On 2018-05-11 at 2:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Everything from this line to the next is actually a post by @lihimsidhe that got merged with mine somehow. Credited as per request.

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system.  Without going into too much detail the player does not have to choose between 'firearm mode' or 'melee mode' as a Tenno does. The player has access to all their moves from a default 'stance'.  It also has a unified combo system.  Meaning that regardless of the weapon a DMC player has the combos they learned for their first weapon works on any subsequent weapon they acquire.

While there is a lot more to DMC's combat than that, Capcom's approach has created a combat system that is near peerless in its execution.

Warframe is a different game on many levels so a straight copy and paste into Warframe wouldn't work well as any of us would hope.  However, there are 4 things Warframe can import from DMC that would work wonders:

  • The elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode'.  
  • The implementation of universal combos.
  • An emphasis on aerial combat
  • A combo counter that rewards variety over repetition.

I feel if the below suggestions were followed not only would it be of a lesser scope than what DE has planned, it would salvage mechanics with great potential that have languished for years, and it would be a more accessible system overall that gives rise to depth built on the backs of proven legends such as Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden.

Dedicated melee and firearm modes are the primary obstacle holding Warframe's combat back.

Quite simply I'm suggesting a quick firearms/quick melee system instead.

How It Would Work

Quick Melee Is the Gateway to All Combos. Any combo a stance grants can be executed with the quick melee button.  However, considering Berserker and Fury are a thing, the commands to execute said combos need to account for this. I'd also suggest that the travel distance that some combos force upon a Tenno be more varied between stances; I personally don't like when a combo string has me moving wildly about but some Tenno may love it. Give us that choice.

Quick Fire is the Gateway to All Shooting. Simply press the fire button and you fire regardless if you are deep in a combo or not. Allow Quick Fire to cancel at least some melee attacks. By doing so you'll see players invent their own combos; trust me on that.

Combos Have Universal Inputs. Glad to see this in the OP.  Once a new player learns the combos for their MK-1 Bo or Skana, they now know how to execute all combos Warframe will throw at them.

  • At Least Two Types of Combos Per Stance. An AoE focused one (because Warframe is a horde game) and a single target focused one (for that rare enemy that actually demands more than passing effort. Ex: Nox).  Without a stance a weapon still has a combo string.  This string is still accessible once a stance is equipped.

Aerial Combat. As it stands if a Tenno executes an aerial attack they can not attack again for 1-2 seconds and I have no idea why.  If players could launch enemies into the air and pursue them with flurries of aerial attacks, I would wager a lot of Tenno would find that fun and useful. However, Warframe should ditch the 'floatiness' of enemies being attacked while airborne unless mods or Warframe/Operator/Archwing abilities call for that.

  • Make Wall Attacks Useful, Please. I have tried my hardest to use these in combat and despite my best efforts they just aren't.  Simply allow them to travel in the direction a player is aiming, removing the end roll animation, with a massive buff to speed and distance traveled and viola! #wallAttacksSaved.
  • Not all Down Attacks Should Be Slam Attacks. A Tenno's option while in the air is either to do an attack that prevents them from attacking for 1-2 seconds period, a momentum killing slide attack, or a slam attack.  Slam attacks make sense for the Fragor but what about a Ceramic Dagger? Sometimes I'd rather just do a downwards aiming non slam attack from the air as I dart around like... a ninja.
  • Aerial Combos. Either allow all of of a weapon's combo to be used in the air or convert at least one existing combo to be used in the air.

Combo Meter Skews Towards Variety, Not Repetition. Reward players more who don't do the same exact attack over and over and over.  1 hit should always add something to the combo counter.  But reward the player more who has explored the depths of what Warframe's combat system has to offer and uses the full bag of tricks at his or her disposal regularly.

Channeling Becomes a Universal Buff Mode. Available at the execution of a single command (single key or multi key press), the Warframe surges with void power. A warframe's parkour, firearms, melee, blocks, archwing, operator, abilities, etc are all buffed in some way either innately or via mods.  Adjust the energy economy to be proportionate to the buff granted. The reason channeling isn't in widespread use is because by time the average player switches to melee mode to use it, Mr. xXSpin2WinYOLOXx just cleared half the room. Even when a Tenno goes through the trouble, the payoff is hardly worth it. It's as the old saying goes: if you can't beat them, join them. Remove the melee mode requirement for channeling, make the buffs worthwhile and it will see a massive upswing in use. The potential for channeling is staggering; don't sacrifice an ocean of potential by merging it with block... which is still locked behind a cumbersome, restrictive, dedicated melee mode.  PLEASE. If Warframe ever becomes an anime, channeling will be the signature 'I'm going to destroy you with overwhelming power' moments. Meanwhile it still can be that exact thing in the actual game.  PLEASE!!!

Block Anytime, Anywhere. The Tenno either can execute a single command (single key or multi key press)  to block. Allow most actions to be cancelled into blocks. Blocking always should have been a fallback action for when a Tenno finds themselves in trouble regardless of what they are doing. This is another clear example how dedicated firearm/melee modes hold back Warframe's potential. Get ready for block damage % to matter just as much as base damage, status, and crit.  Also I can't mention blocking in a serious manner without referencing this. 🙂

Charged Attacks. Take inspiration from Ninja Gaiden.  If charged attacks evoke a sense of power and unleash a massively amped up attack, I'd wager Tenno would use them.  Especially in solo.  However give Tenno the option between consuming some of the combo counter - all of the combo counter.  There's no need for a separate key for heavy attacks when holding in one key can accomplish the same thing. Just make the charged payoff scale to the time held in instead of 'must hold in for x time or you get nothing'. You'd be surprised to see how much more charged attacks would be used when they can be tailored to the situation.

Roll Cancelling.  Quite simply, I'm very happy to see this in the OP. Go the extra step and allow us to cancel our rolls by hitting roll again. Give roll cancelling a cooldown period equivalent to the duration of a roll to prevent abuse.

Cosmetic Stances. Finally some players may be really fond of the cosmetic animation of carrying their firearms with all other weapons holstered or carrying their melee weapon with all other weapons holstered.  Also there's the issue that the idle animations we assign to our warframes don't prompt in missions.  Simple fix: the cosmetic stance of a warframe is determined by the last type of action they performed with the types being: firearms, melee, and abilities with abilities prompting an all weapons holstered, idle animations when still cosmetic stance.

The biggest problem still remains though: DE could create the most exquisite combat system known to man BUT the enemies in Warframe are dumb as #*!%.  Fodder.  Trash mobs.  And Warframe gears Tenno with the Infinity Gauntlet to steal candy from a baby.  But that's a whole other day, a whole other story.


tl;dr: Change the existing firearm/melee modes into a quick firearm/quick melee system, remove the cooldown for aerial attacks, make wall attacks worth it, gradient charged attacks > separate key for heavy attacks, reward varied combos more than repetitive ones, channeling's potential is stunted by being locked behind a dedicated melee mode.

Update: @GrayArchon and @NightmareT12 have brought up valid concerns about how all this can work on console controllers.  I will explain how.

The PS4 has two features the XB1 controller does not: a touch pad and motion/tilt controls.  So this means any new mapping scheme has to work on an XB1 controller first. If a mapping scheme can be addressed by an XB1 controller it can scale up to the PS4 and PC.

https://support.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/accessories/xbox-one-wireless-controller

Counting the X, Y, A, B, Left Bumper, Right Bumper, and 4 directional pad inputs that's 10 mappings.  A factorial is a mathematical operation to figure out how many combinations are possible if a given quantity of things is known which in this case is 10.  What is the factorial of 10?  I used this online factorial calculator and got this:

3,628,800

If we count holding any button in as a separate mapping the total mappings jump up to 20 which gives us a factorial of:

2.4329020082e+18 (not even sure what this means other than its huge)

Out of the millions of combinations of buttons on an XB1 controller the proposed melee rework would require additional mappings in the single digit quantity.  Hope this clears things up.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Awesome work [DE]Rebecca and the whole Warframe team... needed a change to melee 🙂

 

Thanks Rebecca! Just two things:

  • What will happen to current Channeling VFX? Should they be tied to combo counter now? They're a HUGE part of Prime Accessories specially.
  • Can we please, PLEASE, have animation cancelling into Warframe powers? (AKA I'm mid combo but I need to recast X-> Animation stops and casting begins!) It's been one of the things that have frustrated me the most over this years since Melee rework landed back in 2014

Also super excited to regain heavy attacks and see where this is going 🙂

 

On 2018-05-11 at 2:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Dodge canceling any melee attack!

Yes. I've been meaning to ask about this for ages, and I am glad that this is coming.

 

 

 

 

 

But, about moving channeling away. I'll get to the point - what of Channeling Mods?

 

Will the interaction between Blood Rush + Maiming also be looked at? That's another factor of the spin2win "meta"

 

Will any Melee dispositions be changed with these changes? This is not just a melee issue, but I feel it is important. Melee through level geometry was never really a problem, it was due to the Scoliac having a 1.3 disposition as a whip.

The combo meter is getting heavily nerfed. What will the relevance of heavy attacks be if you ruin your entire Blood Rush stack for one attack? These changes will also heavily affect Ash, Excalibur, and a few more frames. The combo meter for some Warframes' kits is crucial for damage output and I hope this is addressed.

I was hoping for more Quality of Life than nerfing most of the reason Melee is powerful. I am still going to stay optimistic of the changes presented, but the geometry change and combo meter changes will be quite devastating. Increasing base damage to compensate does not really address the problem. What will this mean for weapons such as Zenistar? Range stats on Rivens will mostly become useless on high disposition weapons as any sort of geometry will gimp the potential of your weapon.

 

I like what I see

Will there be additional variations between weapons - eg. Tonbo and such polearms with dual blades being split into staves?

Edit: orthos in its make seems to be more aligned to a staff than a polearm or glaive (in the traditional sense) as something as the tonbo is - such a change could bring greater variation to play styles

Edit 2: nikana sheathed and open blade stances - will there be any options to remove the auto sheath/keep the blade out for the nikana coming with the melee update?

Eg. Decisive judgement vs tranquil cleave in the animation difference in styles of attack

 

This is going to be interesting..

 

"Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack."

"Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing."

pls no

"We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat."

Channeling is one of those things where it is incredibly powerful and far more people would use it if it did not detract away from other things, chiefly ability use. The fact of the matter is that channeling drain is simply too high in it's current state to make it worthwhile (unless using certain passives on spoiler mode) when asked whether a player wants to swing their melee a few times for a bit of extra damage or clear the entire map with a massive ability it's pretty clear what they are going to pick. That being said the loss of channeling damage will be a very big one for everyone out there who likes to main melee and knows and appreciates just how good it is. I'm not even gonna get into combo counter because I feel like other people will do a plenty on that front to address why that is just not the greatest idea.... to put it nicely.

 

Sounds good, let's see how it plays out in addition to the Melee rebalance.

 

You could have the old channeling fx activate on hitting a certain number in the combo counter. 

 

I have a question about Zaws now, how will the existing arcanes that effect channeling be changed and reworked? I just finished building Exodia Brave and I've been having fun with it, making a channeling crit build sword zaw with it, allowing me to actually use channeling efficiently, and even gain energy from it.

 

Will ash bladestorm still scale off combo?

 

My biggest question is what's going to happen to Acolyte mods like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds.

EDIT: You know that DE could have removed the spin-to-win spam if they didn't let Memeing Strike and it's relevant Riven modifiers be boosted by Blood Rush.

 

 

Was just on the DevStream and I have to say I'm excited, I hope to get my hands on it soon

 

One on the most important option about dual wielding melee and secondary would be to be able to have an option to set Right click for right weapon and left click for left weapon ; Cause no one need to aim pistol when dual wielding, and using left click and melee quick attack doesnt feel right when actually holding the melee weapon.

 

That'd be fun and practical.

Edited by cursedmoon13
credit given for merged post at original poster's request.
  • Like 72
Link to post
Share on other sites

While I don't like spin to win, don't even use it either, I do feel this is maybe going a little overboard with the 'adjustments' to the ENTIRE melee system....if you want to fix spin to win, simples just stop allowing macros

 

Also not sure I like the proposed combo counter being used for the heavy attack... I don't see how that is more 'intuitive' than holding the melee button to charge it.... not to mention how's it going to impact mods that rely on combo's...

 

Also feel this is nerfing the trade value of certain mods....hmm, really is starting to feel like DE doesn't want a trade market anymore.

edit: actually thought of a really simple fix for heavy attacks and blocking, seeing as it seems we're losing charge attacks (hows that going to work with focus schools)...

Why not just right mouse to block and left mouse button + melee button to do a heavy attack...none of this 'combo counter' is needed and we can keep the old combo counter system.

Edited by LSG501
clarity
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

If normal attacks wont get any dmg mod from combo counter you will get back to old days when melee vs higher levels were spaming heavy attack only.

For melee gameplay Life strike is one of most important things, please adres how will that change.

Channeled blocking was useless because it drained insane amounts of energy to reflect small amounts of dmg (when enemy have lvl 100+ and you reflect 100dmg its definition of useless) , if you will force block to drain energy you will make players to never use block again.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

This is imo the worst change of them all - melee had a great scaleability, and it was why it was so much fun, at least for me. If I understand this correctly (And I might have misunderstand), that's basically going away with the changes done to melee.

  • Like 12
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to see channeling be separated from JUST melee and be seen as "Hyper Transference (hold 5?)"

A state that adds functions to our warframes (or their abilities), or alters stats to weapons, like increasing range or damage (think DMC Devil Trigger).

Not to mention, I think you could make a cool interaction with particular mods and add "Auras" like flower petals when channeling.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

 this is so bad

Edit: wall incoming.

* During an older dev stream you specified how combos didn't work because of how fast the enemies were dying and that none of them were close enough to chain combos.

Here comes today's dev post where you frontload even more damage to emphesize the combos problems to make up for the loss of combo multiplier. 🤗

* You want to remove the scaling from melee. Sure thing but what's the point of putting myself at risk with my fist weapons when I can just shoot from 20m away. It needs to be a risk reward situation.

* that inaros gliding through the sky is sure nice to look at but all I'm seeing is me locking myself up in the air while everything is shooting at me to do something fancy. This is another problem, you're going for the "wow" effect rather then what's actually useful and you should learn by now that players always go for the efficiency in the end (proven by the maming strike meta)

* You said it yourself, you're nerfing maiming to make the other stuff look good. Sure it was kinda op and all but you're solving nothing without asking yourself this question: why was everyone using it in the first place?

People are always gonna default to the efficient way of doing things like it or not. You saw it with frames, with adaro ect...

* You are putting emphesis on one of the most hated parts of melee: heavy attacks, they are slow, cluncky and put you at risk with the charge. And you are asking everyone to dump all their combo or feed of it for one single strike which will probably be either beyond overkill or will thickle high levels at best. there is no middle ground in warframe to consider fantasies like combos, it's either oneshot fodder or meatbags with infinite hp. Unless ofc you are planning to make combos the AW dotconnector that everyone hates.

* How are mods like Blood rush or weeping wounds going to worK? if you lose all your combos on heavy attacks then nobody is going to do that if they affect light attacks and if they only affect heavy attacks then they are not worth the mod slot.

* Please fix enemies spawning out of bounds and locking missions since you are removing the only effective way to deal with them. 

and if we follow the logic, enemies shouldn't be able to damage you through walls.

*How is all this gonna interact with frames that rely on the combo counter?

 

Edited by SSI_Seraph
  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, PoisonHD said:

Thank you for the workshop! That was quick, gonna read it.

EDIT: Well I read itl, I heard this on the Devstream, but if the combo counter is going to be removed from having any effect on basic attacks, the damage of melee weapons will need to be brought up significantly. These days, using the combo counter to ramp up your damage is a staple, and it'll be a huge nerf if we lose that multiplier effecting our basic attacks.

My other questions is about mods like Blood Rush, will they continue to have an effect on basic attacks? Or will they too only apply to the heavy attack? Lastly, will we get an increase for the decay timer on Melee combo counter?

They already said the base damage is going to be increased dramatically to make up for loss of combo counter. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Jigoogly said:

 "Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack."

 

pls no

Do not forget this will heavily affect Ash players as well. The combo meter was a great thing for melee. Sad it is getting toned down because of Acolyte mods most likely.

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, CrazyValkyr said:

This is imo the worst change of them all - melee had a great scaleability, and it was why it was so much fun, at least for me. If I understand this correctly (And I might have misunderstand), that's basically going away with the changes done to melee.

Not really. They said i nthe dev stream the base hits are all going to be dramatically increased to make up for the loss of combo counter

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two things I want to know.

1) How will the combo counter affect mods like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds and also Warframe powers that scale off of it? Do Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds still affect regular attacks and only the damage bonus that the current counter gives is leaving? Or will Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds only affect heavy attacks. Also if all points are spent on a single attack, why would I heavy attack when playing a frame like Atlas or Ash who have powers that scale off combo multiplier?

2) What is going to happen to Channeling mods? I know I don't use most of them but I'd like to keep Life Strike around.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry I hate the whole revist on this

-Makes combo useless since it takes the scaleability of melee
-Moving the block button away to the left (the shoot button) is weird and highly counter productive
-Using combo counters do do heavy attacks and possible blocking is also bad in my opinion, We would have to get body count in all the melees to keep combo to use heavy attacks since its prob the only choice now.
-Over complicating the system. The current melee system is straight foward and easy to use. why making more complex.

All that needed to be done is boost ranges on melees and either remove or rework channeling in a meaningful way.
If you have a button open since you are going to remove channeling why not being able to melee with the mouse now ?

All im saying is:
Don't go through with this
Keep block on the current block button
Put a melee strike on the mouse instead of channel
Fix ranges (dagger/Tonfa/etc)
Don't mess with the combo scaling melee dmg as it gives a lot of use to melees on higher missions and longer runs

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

unnown but currently you don't need to 'charge' those with a combo meter for them to be useful, so I'd wager not. Will be interested in how the orvius will work since right now the grab/hold is a channel mechanic. Will we require the block button to do that since it's taking on some of the channel aspects?

dual wielded orvius only need the correct timed charge throw to do the same thing

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, lihimsidhe said:

Before I begin with Warframe's combat system, I'd like to briefly talk about Devil May Cry's combat system.  Without going into too much detail the player does not have to choose between 'firearm mode' or 'melee mode'.  It also has a unified combo system.  Meaning that regardless of the weapon a DMC player has the combos they learned for their first weapon works on any subsequent weapon they acquire.

While there is a lot more to DMC's combat than that, Capcom's approach has created a combat system that is near peerless in its execution.

Warframe is a different game on many levels so a straight copy and paste into Warframe wouldn't work well as any of us would hope.  However, there are 2 things Warframe can import from DMC that would work wonders:

  • The elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode'.  
  • The implementation of universal combos.

How this would work is by using the formerly named quick melee button as the gateway to launch into all of a weapon's combos.  

By this train of thought, a Tenno could also block at anytime by having a dedicated block command which could either be a single key press and/or a combination of key press.

Finally the elimination of 'firearm mode' and 'melee mode' would allow a player to channel at any time they so choose.  It should buff firearms and melee.  Deplete energy per shot fired with a firearm and deplete energy per enemy struck with a melee weapon and per attack blocked.

As for the combos themselves every weapon should have at least two combos: an AoE dedicated combo (because Warframe is a horde based game) and a single target focused combo in the rare event there are enemies which aren't hordes but challenging (I'm looking at you Nox).

The above suggestions would breathe new life into melee, allow channeling to be saved and to make it useful, and would be much less work than going in a whole new direction.

DE, WE ALREADY HAVE QUICK MELEE YES?
GIVE US QUICK FIRE!

As in if we have our melee equipped, let us quickfire our last firearm we had equipped by spamming E like we do with melee when primary or secondary is equipped. This will open up a whoooole other level of immersion and make for some epic moments during fights.

Imagine, you're slashing away at a grineer heavy with your fang prime and all of a sudden 4 grineer flamers walk through the door behind him, you backflip to get a bit of distance between you and quick fire your pandero, taking out all 5 units in one fell swoop.

Pls.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mewvg2 said:

And you forget that the moment you unleash that one powerful strike... you're back to swinging around a wet noodle again. All the while any decent firearm or frame would have the entire room cleared by the time you even get to that one powerful strike.

Melee is a good spammable system to get rid of enemies at close range so you can keep aiming, shooting, casting abilities, and parkouring without having to worry about another complex system. Its simplicity is its strength. It works the way it is, with the exception of Memeing Strike (which can easily be fixed without a complete overhaul of a decent system).

No one ever said you go back to zero combo counter, they said that it uses the combo counter as fuel for charge attacks.  If you seeing that gameplay in action didn't get you excited, then I guess you will just have to mourn the loss of your Atterax; Put the old girl to bed and dream of the other uses all of your wasted time and platinum could have bought you.

The big issue was that it wasn't a simple system, people just found it was more efficient to exploit it.  There was a pretty significant depth to the melee combos and stances, but it was so clunky that it was virtually unusable.  The intent was for a keen player to learn the combos and channel when the heavy hits came, effectively turning a heavy 3x damage slam into a 4.5x damage slam for 5 energy.  We didn't have time for that in the chaotic maelstrom that is Warframe, so we either face tank a heavy gunner and spam E, or we spend an exorbitant amount of time and resources into a slide attack, many even going so far as macro it and essentially stop playing the game and playing something closer to cookie clicker.  DE is making it well known that they are killing the cheese, if you were smart you would sell your exploit items before the BS rapture comes. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...