Melee: Present and Future goals!

[LupisV0lk]

I honestly think it's sad that i'll assume grown adults are reacting to change worse than those with a "certain" mental disability.

Melee needed a change and it's good to see that DE not only is smashing the Spin to Win macro kiddies but also fix the whole meleeing though walls thing.

[Sonicbullitt]

12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We all use it - even us here. The dizzying yet super-effective slaughter-tornado that can make all other Arsenal options obsolete. But spin to win and melee going through walls - should it stay the way it is? At present time, we don't think so.

via GIPHY

We do not think Melee is at its best when you are facing a wall and spinning into it over and over again. And if we do not address that, any work invested in our melee rework could be wasted. We want to make melee better overall. Primary and Secondary weapons have all gotten pretty painless overhauls this year. Melee's turn is coming.
 

via GIPHY

Scenes like this are all too common, our data shows this method in particular is often abused by automation, and our minds show it just simply isn't fun.

The melee review is taking the longest. It has the most complexity - you can equip Melee, use combos, channel, stealth kill, hit multiple targets, and so on. Removing the clear 'spin to win through walls' is our first step in this plan of making all things melee engagement better.

The first change melee will see before it's broader review is a change to how melee attacks work. The coming change:
 

• Melee attacks (including spin attacks) will no longer sweep through walls or objects.

 

As for the rest of the steps? What follows is an open door to what we're working on internally. This may not release exactly as described here, but we want everyone to be on the same page of what our plans are.
 

• While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
• Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does. Experiments such as constant energy drain or a separate resource, blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing.
• We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
• Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.
• Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
• You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream!
• Dodge canceling any melee attack!
• FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
• Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 

And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

• Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
• Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
• Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use!

These videos show what we have so far. The first is showing quick attacks and heavy attacks together, with emphasis on direction ground attacks. The second video hows you how combat looks against invincible enemies so you can get a feel!

You guys are needlessly complicating things and make more work for yourselves, I like some of these changes like the heavy attacks and directional melee, but removing combo counter from normal attacks is a very bad idea. Just universally buffing all melee weapons damage will not make it better either, for one you have to rework a metric s h i t ton of mods for no reason and secondly this change will not necessarily make players use heavy attacks more either.

You guys need to remember this is a horde based  game, why use a single heavy attack to kill one  enemy when a bunch of quick attacks accomplishes the same thing quicker while hitting more at the same time. If you guys want to  change the combo system, make it so that varying your combos up with heavy attacks adds more to the combo counter and spamming is either rewarded with no combo counter points or very few with a cap.

This system would work incredibly well with the new intended directional melee, it will reward comboing and mixing things up while still keeping the combo system and its mods intact.

[DeMonkey]

6 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

Because mob rule won before.

This is a prime example of why developers shouldn't listen to their communities. It limits progress, much needed changes are stifled.

They don't listen to us though, especially when we post feedback in General Discussion is my point. 

Reminded OP of this on several occasions.

[LupisV0lk]

Just now, DeMonkey said:

They don't listen to us though, especially when we post feedback in General Discussion is my point. 

Reminded OP of this on several occasions.

Damage 2.5 says other wise. They only listen when we start attacking their income stream. It's not helped that we're a disjointed lot with no clear direction of where we want to go.

[ngrazer]

12 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

...the hell? What am I supposed to do with melee since I use fast attacks only?

[Hoxard]

While we're looking at slam attacks, maybe we could consider having them increase your falling speed?

It would make them easier to control and give them a lot more visual and tactile feedback that would make them much more satisfying to use, and as an added bonus it would make them a useful parkour technique too.

[(PSN)hiltaldo]

I’m a fairly new player and had no idea about stances or combos for melee but one of the things that I like about Warframe, it’s speed, genuinely means I button mash into a room. I’m not really sure if it’s worth the time spent pressing 4 different buttons when you can empty a room quicker using just one, quickly.

i appreciate it may need a rework but I’m not sure if I’d use a heavy attack unless it cleared a room or affected multiple enemies, otherwise why waste the combo build up on one guy?  Remember the quote “simplicity is genius” 

[DeMonkey]

9 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

Damage 2.5 says other wise. They only listen when we start attacking their income stream. It's not helped that we're a disjointed lot with no clear direction of where we want to go.

Not my point. I'm pointing out to the OP, yet again, that they're posting their feedback in GD. They're pleading the community, not DE.

Whether DE listen or not is really irrelevant, my previous response to you was intended to be lighthearted.

[LupisV0lk]

1 minute ago, DeMonkey said:

Not my point. I'm pointing out to the OP, yet again, that they're posting their feedback in GD. They're pleading the community, not DE.

Whether DE listen or not is really irrelevant, my previous response to you was intended to be lighthearted.

AH, i see that now. My bad.

I'm always cynical(?) when it comes to pleads to the community by the community. Too often have i seen it turn into a riot.

[lihimsidhe]

5 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

You're taking a wrong premise in all this. Warframe is a fast paced shooter game at its core. You can't remove the Triangle/Y/F button mapping in any way for two things:

I'm not removing any mappings except for a dedicated go into melee mapping.  Both games I cited, DMC and Ninja Gaiden, are also fast paced games. Whether Warframe is a shooter or a slasher - the answer is it's both.  The mappings and direction I provided are optional things that exist on top of what already exists now.  If you want Warframe to remain strictly a shooter then that is still open to you.

5 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

no one will sacrifice using a rifle or pistol or make them behave like in a game that's vastly different

Firstly when you use operators such as 'no one' it makes your premise easy to disprove. Don't assume you speak for the entirety of all Tenno and their tastes, preferences, and interests. Secondly, my suggestions aren't sacrificing using a primary vs a secondary.

5 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

Warframe can never be like that unless you completely sacrifice the shooter aspect of the game. Which it won't

Again I never said anywhere in the OP, or any of my responses, about sacrificing the shooter aspect of Warframe.  If you could copy and paste where I did that would be of much help. If your copy and paste is accurate, I'll amend it in the OP.  I don't think any other Tenno has confused my rework with sacrificing the firearms aspect of Warframe.  I haven't checked the thread in a few hours so things could have changed.

[Futurehero]

Please consider nerfing/ limiting attack speed increases as well and buff the weapon damage correspondingly.

 Swing speed is one of the defining characteristics that sets melee weapons apart from each other. Having the ability to turn all weapons into billion-hits-a-second blenders removes a major factor in weapon choice .

Imagine if all weapons had a 1 second reload, or 0 recoil. There'd be a lot less difference and a lot less DE could do to set weapons apart

[Doomsknightmare]

Hell yaeh ! Finally can I use melee besides whips and polearms with satisfaction !

[Tomppak]

Moving heavy melee into a separate button for quicker access is kinda nice, but would it be possible to also activate it by holding the melee button down, as in the old way?

[lihimsidhe]

56 minutes ago, (PS4)GL_alphamind said:

Maybe deplete the combo counter through the combos from stances rather than heavy attacks. Easier combos do more damage than then the basic button mash and deplete the counter less than a harder combo that does more damage than the easier combo.

I think you may be onto something here but I would like some clarification.  It seems you are putting forth an idea that all attacks contribute to and take away from the combo counter?  If that's the case that may be a hard pill to swallow.  If that's not the case I apologize for my misunderstanding.  

[greiff]

Hello and good morning to DE!

After watching the devstream twice, read the workshop post multiple times, and slept on it.... i think i am ready to conclude what my thoughts are regarding this coming proposal/changes

Spin and Maiming:

First of all i think its about damn time the spin-to-win method is being look at, and corrected. Despite its a game where we are space ninja, space dogs lay eggs and a blue alien with a long ass arm manage to seduce our space mum, a physical melee swing would somehow pass through object and walls and kill multiple enemies, or break all container, is beyond ridiculous.

I was too myself a fan of the combo of maiming + Atterax (although the last time i use that combo was more than a year ago), as well as the previous mechanism of Telos Boltace, the box opener. But i am glad as a result when they make the change on Telos Boltace. I was not happy at the time, but it brings me to learn to appreciate how fun the game play would be by finding unique combination between primary, secondary and melee.... and when you find that synergy you are looking for between these elements, the game play just felt that much better (good example would be a ranged/duration Inaros with a dagger, and a hall of M build mirage with a dual sword. Lets admit it, if everyone were to simply slap on their atterax/scoliac with maiming strike and spin the whole tile set, we would not be learning how well a zakti would works with Glaive prime with Ivara, and everything just get dull. 

Another fact that because of how crazy the setup is, it means maiming strike as a mod, is barred from a lot of others who simply do not have the luck for a drop (because RNGesus is a *@##$), cant afford or dont have that much plat to pay for it, hence not able to try and enjoy the mod at all (at some point people were asking 800p if not higher for a maiming strike mod) 

If anything i do think everyone agree that its not a pay to win, and with the current state of maiming on trade market, it is money to buy power (and a wrong kind of power)

 

 

Combo counter and Stance combo:

This is my biggest concern from the whole write up of the workshop, the fact that DE is considering removing the combo counter from normal attack and stance combo

At the moment the most fun i am having in Warframe is to run into the crowd of mob, and slash through with my melee of choice, play through the stance combo, and built up the dmg as the combo counter start counting (final harbinger with Silva and Aegis, Tempo Royale with Dokharm+Sthung zaw, and Dual Keres with Carving Mantis)

The combo counter would makes certain weapon which seems weak on paper, but strong as hell in practice, and surprise the S#&$ out of most player who only watch youtube, and copy methods from others. And that is the power you learn by playing, and all the elements mentioned above enable that.

Yes i am aware that Scott mentioned all melee base dmg will be increase to make up for the lost, but i think we all know that the power of the combo counter will always surpass whatever number you guys are willing to increase. 

I will repeat this one more time, the fun of melee is about finding that unique combination that suits each player's play style. And with combo counter, working with stance combo, it enables that.

A good example: Most people on forum, wikia, reddit slam the dual keres, simply because of the "sucky range" and "oh its not better than nami skyla prime" on paper. But in realistic play test, it is easily on par, if not better than nami skyla prime in terms of slashing through mobs into pieces with red numbers flying... and that is the fun of it!

Isolating combo counter on  heavy attack only is like putting a powerful engine into a cow-pull truck that yes will make the truck powerful, but not all that efficient or useful. It will not make people wanting to use the cow-pull truck anymore than current. And once again i know DE want to make sure all methods and mechanism is being used equally, and at current state heavy attack is not popular. So change the method to make it popular, not taking a popular mechanism from others, and stuff it on so that it becomes popular......

 

I think that's it for now regarding changes...

 

But while we are at it...

- Please clarify range on melee..... How its calculate, and perhaps the stats actually show the range, and how it change once certain mod is added on, like crit chance etc?

- Have you ever consider making stance combo viable through quick melee? that would makes the flow of attacks that much better, similar to dual wield, without forcing player to use a throw weapon and single handed secondary (one can dream of running aklex prime with a nikana prime and able to swing execute the stance combo and shot smoothly....) Is that what the new "dual wield" system will allow?

 

[(PSN)S1R_TERRANCE]

No more Wall Clipping. Reduction in Ranges. Am I needing to consume Combo Counter to use a Charge Attack..?
With these three things in mind, I am worried about my Zenistar 😞

[LuckyCharm]

While the changes implimented are ..interesting.. it seems like they fail to nail what it is that's causing problems with melee that causes systems to be underused or cheesed. 

Problem point 1: hard to hit enemies. 

I don't know if it's just me but some melee weapon types and stances find it very hard to hit certain enemy types. Things like tempo royale for example doesn't have the easiest time vs flying enemies except for if youre lucky one hit in a combo. Generally for me it's why I used long reach polearms etc to hit them as I'm at long enough range that they'll not be too high on my screen.  

Other enemies like shockwaves, ancients, bombards and napalms and any arson eximus seem to forever be spamming knockdowns or grapples to disrupt you from actually closing with them and most times we dont have tools for that. The aimed slams look like theyre going to help.. but having to double jump in many confined areas isnt that possible. This makes people want to just spin to try and keep momentum and attack animations happening with the hopes these enemies will be unable to cc them

Shield lancers have no cooldown on they shove too which makes them a nightmare and frequently breaks combo chains.

Problem point 2: collateral aoe damage. 

Some frames are exceedingly squishy. Frames like loki generally survive by not being hit but many times youre forced to slice enemies through walls or doorways if your team mates happen to be not on stealth frames and are anywhere near you. It's usually controlled if you disarm or cc but not always.

Problem point 3: blocking and parrying isnt effective on fast enemies. 

It really feels like blocking is a lot less effective than it should be. It would really be a little better if you could 100% block a few strikes or shots until you had your block broken. That way well timed blocks can save you a lot of hp damage. Maybe pressing attack while blocking could shove an enemy back or stagger them if times to parry. 

Problem point 4: melee attacks ptompt finishers with the same button as all the other attacks.

Main issue with this is it leaves you vulnerable to a forced animation that usually you cant avoid hitting. Really needs to be moved to a different keypress. Maybe the interract button. 

 

Some of the propsed changes can ease these problems a little with stance fixes but it would really take an ai change too for some of the issues. Unless it was possible to block to avoid shovkwaves etc

[Cibyllae]

Spoiler

 

[An8rchy]

We only used 2 combos right now 
button mash and block combo

If we dont combos now, what tells that we will do combos then ? 
It's just better to do one of the prior. and not using the combo counter for scaleable dmg for any of them will just nerf melee in general and really wont make us use the combo either way since its just not as fast or efficient or cool (mowing down hordes of enemies that seem to never stop is cool).

Just dont go through with this. leave the current melee as it is,remove the channel button for a heavy attack if you want to, i personaly would just put melee attack there, and dont mess with the combo counter, its legit the only scalability that melee has to deal with high levels and long runs

[Cibyllae]

3 minutes ago, An8rchy said:

its legit the only scalability that melee has we have to deal with high levels and long runs

fixed*

I'm sure we'll find something to replace it, the Meta never goes away it simply rotates

EDIT: so why not have something more fun than what we currently have if there is always going to be a meta

[Avvercus]

13 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

1

I don't often chime in on the forums, especially not to give negative feedback, but I feel like this is the worst decision you've ever made, DE. This would not only make Naramon completely useless, but melee itself would become irrelevant. If you want to force people to use heavy attacks, make them scale with attack speed mods so I don't die every time I'm charging one up.

[(PSN)Anfffy]

22 minutes ago, (PS4)S1R_TERRANCE said:

No more Wall Clipping. Reduction in Ranges. Am I needing to consume Combo Counter to use a Charge Attack..?
With these three things in mind, I am worried about my Zenistar 😞

Ye I main melee and I'm really worried about the changes, I've been playing for 4 yrs now and if this isn't done right this might be the thing that finally pushes me away from the game =(

[Capt.Parasyte]

After this melee and saryn rework what are you nerfing next? 

gives me a reason to quit warframe

[ashnakag]

Okay, so the "not going through walls anymore is understandable, because that was just broken. The thing with the combo counter now focussing on light and heavy attacks. how are you gonna do that with blood rush and mods like that. If people want to stack their crit through blood rush, they won't use the heavy attacks because that consumes the  combo counter and they would lose  their stack. Also, maybe people will use heavy attacks in the beginning because it looks cool but later on light attacks with a crit stack will be way more useful and effectient. Then heavyattacks won't be used at all anymore and just become  forgotten feature. Also, if you are gonna nerf maiming strike so much, just remove it at all or place it to the normal droptable. Farming acolytes won't be worth it anymore.

[(PSN)warcrow2047]

Okay DE, i'll be honest i dislike this change in general that you are putting forward, i think it's the wrong move not only because i think channelling IS redeemable, but also because i don't think most people will care to use this new feature especially when it comes to newer players who get easily confused.

now i know what your asking, how would i redeem channelling, since no matter your efforts you haven't been able to, what i would do is basically give the players 2 load-outs per a melee weapon which can be active at a time, the player would be able to go in-between them through channelling, 1 would be the basic weapon and the other would be when that weapon channels this could also tie in with weapons that can come in 2 forms, giving the player the option to make use of that and in my perspective make the game more enjoyable.

but expanding upon that idea, it's make split-swords and other mix weapons a lot better to use, but i haven't looked over the main issue the player base has with channelling; the energy consumption, now this can be dealt with in a number of resolutions such as A. since it'd now cause metamorphosis make it a one time charge costing the players dependant of mods like life-strike (this could be timed, work with the warframe mods that effect abilities and also possible to go into negative for energy gain, as a opposition to rage) B. make a separate form of energy for the melee weapons that increases over time but can also be sped up through dealing damage to enemies (which would work well the the already integrated channelling only mods)

what about the amount of mods available won't that be OP? now because they would basically be 2 weapons that isn't really a big concern, the concern would be over mods like: life strike, which is the biggest blockade in-front of this whole idea when going down the route of idea A. from the paragraph above, which is my genuine favourite out of the 2 ideas, which allow players to easily switch between the 2, now this could be fixed through 5 main methods, 1. You increase the metamorphosis cost and add a duration to it 2. you remove the mod (which is obviously not a real choice and the player base would hate it) and finally 3. you make the mod take up one space on the normal weapon AND the channelling weapon 4. you change the mod itself to be more situational with the charged weapon such as a slam attack with the channelling form 5. make 2 types of channelling the split-weapon mode and the original mode, this would only come into effect if the player has no mods or stance on his second mode meaning that the user can only activate this kind of mod with this mode, making use of the old channelling since some people like me do use it.

Now then before i continue i would also like to point out how this isn't only for weapons that have 2 forms, it can be used to switch between stances, or even elements and statuses at a moments notice allowing the players to also be more free from the worries of bringing in the wrong statuses against the wrong units and i believe this WILL be used especially with the metamorphosis idea, which i liked the most because it means the player can choose to use that mode then be allowed to bring out any of their other weapons without a worry of it reverting or being unusable.

as you can tell i have quite a few ideas and going back to one of my complaints what about newer players? Well this is why i added idea 5. into the previous paragraph for the newer players, so whilst they don't understand it it's not a useless feature and also to expand on the original it could have a bit of a change too like a percentage of bullets whilst channel blocking are reflected (for a lesser cost than it does in-game, because that mod is basically unusable in the face of any rapid-fire weapon.

You can see how much i considered this and i would love DE to notice and consider what i am putting forward so if you have read and agree with what i am saying can you please up-vote it, if you think you can improve upon it please reply as well. i tried my best to give a thorough look into my idea, because i want this channelling rework to be something to look forward to instead of scared for what it will change, because all i can see right now in the other change is nerfs and DE making the game harder for new players and less relaxing for those who just want to relax.

.P.S i know i'm using metamorphosis in the wrong way, but throughout this i was thinking how this was just like how equinox works with her 2 forms and in respect for how she is most likely where this idea originates from i was linking back to her 1st ability in which she changes forms