Melee: Present and Future goals!

[Cradicias]

2 minutes ago, --Q--Mordred said:

I've always felt that blocking should be removed entirely. On over 1.5k hours I think I've used it 4 minutes, and it was to get the challenge.

Why? Because its inefficient. A dead enemy doesnt fire, thats what your weapons are for.

Ah, but in higher end play blocking helps melee players close with enemies without dying (that 85% damage reduction for some weapons helps a LOT). It also prevents knockdowns by the heavy units which is the leading cause of death for players, being suddenly stopped and easily targeted. It does serve a purpose despite what you might think.

[-DM-Mordred]

5 minutes ago, Cradicias said:

Ah, but in higher end play blocking helps melee players close with enemies without dying (that 85% damage reduction for some weapons helps a LOT). It does serve a purpose despite what you might think.

In Higher end play you just sit behind a wall and spam maiming atterax. (Hence why melee is being changed to begin with)

And yeah, I guess channeling could be useful for idk, melee only sorties or something. My main issue with it is that blocking locks you in animation, cant do S#&$ but hey, that damage reduction tho

[Hiiamwilliam]

Have you considered replacing rolling with something similar to Limbo's dash when you have your melee equipped? I believe this would be pretty cool because it could:

• Increase quantity and diversity of combos, allowing easier combo chaining;

It's common to kill enemies before the last, usually more powerful, attacks of a combo (thus "wasting" them) or to hit all attacks except the last ones due to wonky animations. Dashing mid combo could allow you to hit all attacks, integrating quick and heavy attacks in a more interactive way, easily chaining combos between spread groups of enemies (rewards player's dexterity), without being forced to start combos from the first attack after rolling (which kinda breaks the flow of melee game play). Ideally, combos would be shorter but more flexible to allow dashing and chaining, rolling would still be possible if you were holding block button (not holding it would dash) and it would grant less damage reduction than rolling but a little evasion percentage.

• Allow safer navigation of less melee-oriented frames if the player wants to use melee for something else than spin2win or play rolling simulator;

Since melee requires you to constantly get shot if you want to attack, in my experience, I don't even try actual melee if the frame doesn't possess high survivability or invisibility. Allowing higher mobility through dashing could make melee more friendly for such unfortunate frames.

 

And since we're talking about speed, it's important to remember that wonky or slow melee attack animations and slow transitions between animations (like not being able to attack immediately after a slam attack) are negative points that should be addressed.

 

Another thing: if you are going to revisit slam and heavy attacks... do something about wall attacks. Like, change them. Heavily. Just, do something.

[Cradicias]

1 minute ago, --Q--Mordred said:

In Higher end play you just sit behind a wall and spam maiming atterax. (Hence why melee is being changed to begin with)

And yeah, I guess channeling could be useful for idk, melee only sorties or something

...So, your comments only apply if you're abusing a broken system that is being adjusted to stop the abuse. As such, please keep on subject as this about how melee will work AFTER the rework. If you don't have anything to add that is based on what was posted in suggestions, then please keep the posts to yourself as they do nothing to progress the conversation.

[BenRiach]

Maybe i'm just ignorant but to me it seems like the proposed changes are for completely different type of game.

[(PSN)Niashi]

Can we please please please get rid of this mentality where not trying = fun? I admit that I have been playing less than a year. I don't pretend to know all there is to know about this game but as a fairly recent player I can say that I have noticed this trend. It's boring if I don't have to try. Keeping up a combo counter is half the battle. Rather than continually nerfing us down to fight the same level 30-40 enemies over and over again, give us greater challenges! If you want to get rid of spin to win, fine. If you want to reduce some of the range on things like whips and other weapons where they can clear a room in one swipe, fine. But don't strip away mechanics that scale us up to do endurance runs or challenging content because that's all we have if we don't want to sit there and do Hydron all day every day. Seeing the changes proposed to melee, what has happened to Khora and Gara do not give me hope for the future of this game. Every big proposal I've seen during my time on Warframe has made me more cautious to stay attached than the last because I feel like the game does not want us to progress past a certain point. And what is the point to any game if not to continuously try to be better than you are?

[Extroah]

8 hours ago, Kboy2608 said:

I dont even use maiming strike and my condition overload valkyr can easily take me to wave 8 or 9 solo in elite onslaught. But with all those changes, especially about meleeing through wall and combo counter, i dont even know that i cant make it to wave 5 or not 😐 Like they take away all the fun and effort to do this just b/c of something that i dont even use, so i think that i have the right to feel salty about it. 

Melee'ing through walls is only good for when an enemy glitches through a wall/ceiling, other than that its useless. If you depend so much on it maybe you're just doing it wrong.^^

[Extroah]

This one can be deleted, forum bugged for a bit and made me post twice.

[Lorechill]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Niashi said:

Can we please please please get rid of this mentality where not trying = fun? I admit that I have been playing less than a year. I don't pretend to know all there is to know about this game but as a fairly recent player I can say that I have noticed this trend. It's boring if I don't have to try. Keeping up a combo counter is half the battle. Rather than continually nerfing us down to fight the same level 30-40 enemies over and over again, give us greater challenges! If you want to get rid of spin to win, fine. If you want to reduce some of the range on things like whips and other weapons where they can clear a room in one swipe, fine. But don't strip away mechanics that scale us up to do endurance runs or challenging content because that's all we have if we don't want to sit there and do Hydron all day every day. Seeing the changes proposed to melee, what has happened to Khora and Gara do not give me hope for the future of this game. Every big proposal I've seen during my time on Warframe has made me more cautious to stay attached than the last because I feel like the game does not want us to progress past a certain point. And what is the point to any game if not to continuously try to be better than you are?

I think I'd reserve judgement until after Tennocon. Though this has been the problem with Warframe since, well, the beginning. All we can do is say our thoughts in the forums and hopefully it'll be added to collated data to be considered. As Rebecca have repeatedly stated, everything in Warframe is uncertain. That alone should give you a clear picture on how things actually are. I think being in beta for so long is kinda half of wanting to be better and half not knowing how to be. Even the plains was an experiment. At this point think of everything as an experiment. They're practically assassins at this point lmao, "Nothing is true, everything is permitted." Just look at Ember's deluxe. And now look at Nidus' deluxe. I don't even know what is what anymore.

[XzWasPzX]

hace 6 minutos, BenRiach dijo:

Maybe i'm just ignorant but to me it seems like the proposed changes are for completely different type of game.

Maybe im completely ignorant too, but thats exactly my opinion. Nice changes for Nier Automata or Bayonetta, not for Warframe.

[Praesagium]

hace 29 minutos, BenRiach dijo:

Maybe i'm just ignorant but to me it seems like the proposed changes are for completely different type of game.

The only thing missing here its the stamina bar so you cant meele/block/do heavy attacks everytime.

[(PSN)Niashi]

Heh, something for everyone though! I remember when Ember deluxe came out and I was like "Wha?...." as my husband was logging on as fast as he possibly could to buy it! But that being said, I feel like there's a lot of other things that could use some attention. (Looking at you Wukong!) I see the need and want to fix the issues, but I can't comprehend fixing the parts that aren't broken. Channeling and combo counters absolutely serve a purpose, even if they aren't for everyone. I truly love this game though. I have not yet hit my 1 year milestone, but I am already MR 25 and aside from raids, I have participated in all content that has been made available since I've been playing. So I felt I should at the very least voice my opinion. I just can't help but worry when I read things like this and the previous damage pitches over slash, impact and puncture. I am only thankful those were scrapped but I'm sad Khora was just slapped together because of it. Like all other Tenno, I truly want what's best for this game and I want to see it thrive. I just feel like this may be a step in the wrong direction.

[Kboy2608]

7 minutes ago, Extroah said:

Melee'ing through walls is only good for when an enemy glitches through a wall/ceiling, other than that its useless. If you depend so much on it maybe you're just doing it wrong.^^

Have you ever try to bring a melee to EOS?? Nobody depend completely on things like meleeing through walls. In fact, about just 10% or 15% of my hits are though walls but in later zone, this 10% can easily be the difference between maintaining the efficiency stable or having it drop like crazy. This thing alone can take me back 1 or even 2 last zones and with the combo counter change, it may take me much much further back. Before telling me that i'm doing it wrong or not, try it yourself first. 

[Torque_thebloodedge]

Please don't do away with channeling......i use lifestrike for my survivability.....If you ask me channeling should be left as it is where we have a choice to enable or disable it on the options screen

[-BM-Storm_Fire]

Well as i see and sorry for saying that But You Guys Killing everything Beautiful in this Game You Guys Killed Ember - Wukong - MAG and now u gonna Destroy Maiming Strike !! REALLY !!! idk why u guys killing the Game ! we love WF and We Enjoy our time playing it  our ways Why instead of making the Enemies Harder You Killing the Frames ! well we invested ALOT of Forma and Plat and alot of Kuva to Get the Best Range in a Riven and Time to make some stuff like Weapons , Frames , etc Descent so we can Survive against lvl 150+ enemies So what u going to do by doing a Nerf to Melee weapons and Maiming Strike will make only 1 thing alot of Players Like Me Who Enjoy Playing the game will Just Quit the Game because there will be No Enjoying anymore SO Just think How many players Will Quit the Game after You Guys Decide to Nerf Something Thanks.

[(PSN)A007Bear]

Going through this thread has made me hopeful that all the time I've spent making my Crit melee builds viable won't be flushed down the toilet. I'm very concerned that my Destreza/Plague Rapier and Guandao will be neutered into oblivion. I depend so much on combo multipliers combined with Naramon combo decay. Also, I've noticed that nobody at DE has mentioned punctuating melee combo strikes with channeling. Hitting those multiplier strikes with a channelled hit is devastating. I'd really hate to lose my mojo.

All in all, changes to my beloved warframe have been good. I may be apprehensive about these changes in particular, but I have faith in you Devs.

To sum up. Don't make the best feature of Naramon worthless. And don't nuke my arsenal, (which is melee dependent.)

[zerulaw39]

I see a lot of things that need a lot of thoughts before changing it here so I'll list it down here

 

- first thing first remove melee attack hitting through wall? ok I know you really don't like Maiming strike and I'm ok with it since I think it's kinda boring too but the problem is you know how many time that enemy bug and stuck in a wall and can't be killed right? expectially painful unit like Ancient healer and Energy leech eximus not to mention some place that they spawn in but it's where we can't go in to kill them like grey door  ,hole between pipe and so on. remove hitting through object with melee is basically make it impossible for us to handle these bugs anymore so please If you want to put and end to hitting through wall you really need to do something about these bugs or we all will be doom by this future update

 

- second thing is blocking that's We REALLY REALLY don't want to spend our energy every time we block at all for example let's talk about grineer fire rate he hit us like 10+ times with his bullets from his Grakata and in result of blocking we lose 50+ actual energy by blocking only 10+ bullets when there more than 10 enemy most of the time firing at us with 100+ bullets? so what do we need to block all those? 500+ energy for blocking? NO that's too much and really uncool.

          my suggestion about this channel blocking is give us a choice to channeling block or not and everything will be ok for everyone

 

- remove damage from combo counter and make it only use for Heavy attack is maybe good since you gotta make it easier for us to reach higher damage multiplier with lower combo count anyway but I think spend all combo counter on only one hit is kinda bit too much. maybe change it to use some of those counter to do series of heavy attack that do aoe like you do in the clip or different between weapon type instead. doing this will make an entire different playstyle for a certain amount of time(depend on how much counter you have) like heavy attack combo with hammer that do slam on every moves while moving forward , jumping leap attack that lock-on like atlas on heavy attack claws to close all the gap to violently kill like an animal(aka hunter in left 4 dead 2) or even one punch without atlas with fist heavy attack that can slowly charge all combo counter(more combo counter use = more x percentage scaling of enemy health,armor,shield) and go all out in one punch.

You might add some special effect if use with certain frame too like whip has special effect when use with khora or ash with dagger or something

please be serious about this because combo counter is always been best friend to all of us in warframe please take a good care of him

 

- last thing is range or primed reach from what I assume is getting nerf please if you do that then there no chance for short range weapon like fist or anything without higher than head attack animation to deal with osprey and expectially with Kronen prime that you just release has so low range making it even shorter mean no one will care about these weapon anymore so you need to careful with this

 

this is all I can say from what I see please do it carefully thank you.

[mrrobotto67]

This post leaves a lot more questions than answers honestly.

But from what i see ... 

1. I would say that instead of heavy attacks taking away all the points, let it take half of the points we get through the combo (or a flat ammount of points).
2. Hopefully blocking doesn't take away energy (as a matter the fact, i don't see the point of putting the aspects of channeling on regular blocking).
3. To me, every stance should have something special to them so there is a reason to use different stuff. (we already have that but with the new system that might be taken away).

[LuckyCharm]

16 minutes ago, -BM-Storm_Fire said:

Well as i see and sorry for saying that But You Guys Killing everything Beautiful in this Game You Guys Killed Ember - Wukong - MAG and now u gonna Destroy Maiming Strike !! REALLY !!! idk why u guys killing the Game ! we love WF and We Enjoy our time playing it  our ways Why instead of making the Enemies Harder You Killing the Frames ! well we invested ALOT of Forma and Plat and alot of Kuva to Get the Best Range in a Riven and Time to make some stuff like Weapons , Frames , etc Descent so we can Survive against lvl 150+ enemies So what u going to do by doing a Nerf to Melee weapons and Maiming Strike will make only 1 thing alot of Players Like Me Who Enjoy Playing the game will Just Quit the Game because there will be No Enjoying anymore SO Just think How many players Will Quit the Game after You Guys Decide to Nerf Something Thanks.

Players will quit because the game suddenly became a game? 

Having done a few missions melee only since the change was announced i specifically looked at how I played, and my melee style is a lot more bursty than I once thought. I blow a group of enemies up in 1-2 swings then have to stop and look for another group. Depending on how things are changed, if the changes are say.. gaining .5x on your combo counter per hit rather than exponentially based and capped at say 5x, i can see myself using heavy attacks to take out elites a lot. 

That said for super long missions it will be a nerf as well as times when you have to try to strike enemies on ledges above you, behind cover or crates or collect containers spawned in unreachable areas

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, BenRiach said:

Maybe i'm just ignorant but to me it seems like the proposed changes are for completely different type of game.

It isn't just you. When they presented it I was listening to the stream and thought that it sounded a lot like Dark Souls...

[Evhel]

Loved spin attacks (lets be honest, the swipe is really cool, especially on Valkyr's 4) before the spin meta, will continue to love it after the change.

Killing channelling is the way to go, it's a pointless feature. But i'm really scared of your plans with combo counter (Venka Prime?)

Will miss the melee hitting behind walls, i hate seeing crates on the mini map due to Animal Instincts and not being able to destroy them cause they spawned in unreachable areas.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

3 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Players will quit because the game suddenly became a game? 

 

These changes will fundamentally alter melee...and none of the changes sound particularly good at the moment. Some of them are a down right nerf to the melee system in a wave environment where armor & damage scaling of enemies is beyond atrocious. Others need to be really, really, really expertly done for them to not go horribly wrong,...and, I am sorry, but DE just does not have the track record (at least not recently) to inspire confidence they can pull that off. 

It is soon to say anything for sure...but these changes do not suddenly make the game ore of a game. The enemies are still not suited for tactical play and these changes are more suited for tactics than for what this game really is.

[Cibyllae]

Scott_On_Combo_Meter_Tiers

B-But the Combo Counter doesn't effect light attacks a-anymore right?

---

Scott_On_Melee_Dmg_Buff

 

Spoiler

 

 

EDIT: For everyone who doesn't understand the Slide Attack stat, it adds ADDITIVE BASE CRIT CHANCE TO YOUR SLIDE ATTACKS

[Vanillu]

28 minutes ago, LuckyCharm said:

Players will quit because the game suddenly became a game? 

Having done a few missions melee only since the change was announced i specifically looked at how I played, and my melee style is a lot more bursty than I once thought. I blow a group of enemies up in 1-2 swings then have to stop and look for another group. Depending on how things are changed, if the changes are say.. gaining .5x on your combo counter per hit rather than exponentially based and capped at say 5x, i can see myself using heavy attacks to take out elites a lot. 

That said for super long missions it will be a nerf as well as times when you have to try to strike enemies on ledges above you, behind cover or crates or collect containers spawned in unreachable areas

Players will quit the game because the ideas they're using are similar to Bayonetta-esque games which completely do not mesh with Warframe whatsoever at all.

Dozens of people I met in Warframe quit because of raids being removed. What makes u think someone wouldn't quit because instead of them changing melees, they should be nerfing rivens, like how they should have from the beginning with weapon balance passes. 

[Zergie]

finally no more whip jockeys in missions ruining the fun for the rest of us