Melee: Present and Future goals!

[LemonNade4Kavinh]

22 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

This is basically trade normal melee build for heavy attack only

[Axres]

Please don't make melee blocked by all objects, I can understand having walls completely blocking it, but if its a box or fence type of thing, just give like a 50% damage debuff as a cover bonus (or just do that for all objects less coding required).  Also, if melee can't pass through something even though the animation will, please update it so our weapons bounce off of walls/objects (thinking dark souls here) which will ruin long range weapons (and slow you down a lot) but at least makes more sense then your animation hitting an enemy but doing no damage.  Either go all in or do nothing, halfway is just annoying. 

As for as the channeling thing, I can't see the changes being very useful.  Unless it does stupid amounts of damage (or you nerf the light hit) it just isn't going to be worth it.  Most melee weapons are only useful on spin or jumping attacks with a few being good for spamming the e key.  Slam attacks are slow so unless make them do high damage as well it still won't be that useful outside of knock downs and even then on high-level missions you'll just get killed while you recover from the animation.  If you want to make people use different melee weapons just buff everything that isn't spin to win, that may be through mods or tweaks to the numbers.  Outside of messing around on a lowish (under lvl 50) missions I can't see any reason to have a melee in your main hand for most frames, I have far better ways to kill enemies without risking being killed for high level missions.  And for high levels the Atterax isn't always great, especially if its enemy physical armour sortie.  So again, tweaking numbers would be a better option, make it so the spin attack is more effected by armour values.  Base enemies die to anything anyway so just make the bigger units more resilient to a spin attack.  Logically, you can justify it as a spin attack isn't very focused so it is more of a glancing hit. 

But simply put, with the mods that are based on multiplier combo, no one is going to want to use a charged attack and lose the stack.  Blocking isn't that important, as if your far enough away you may as well use a gun and if your up close a dead enemy does 0 damage.  I do agree that spin-to-win needs to not be the only melee meta, as I am very tired of wishing whatever weapon I picked to fashion frame with my load out was an Atterax.  Please just nerf spin attacks by buffing the rest.

 

PS enemies get stuck in walls and ceilings at times, with noway to kill them some missions might be impossible to complete

[TheHalfsightedOne]

Any chances that we can see the Jaw Sword get a substantial buff with this pass? TBH its augment mod at this point needs to be an innate effect like the Vaykor Hek has if it were to be useful.

It looks like, and colors like, Link's Fierce Deity Sword. so it deserves to be more badass (and heck you guys have Volt wielding it in the login screen. A lot of people know what it is)

Basically, I just really want some of the older, and rather awesomely designed melees, to get a reason to use them. I know its a lower MR type weapon, but even still you can get much MUCH better melees at even like, mr2. which takes all of 2-3 days of play to reach.

 

BRING THIS BEAUTIFUL *@##$ INTO THE LIIIIGHT~ Please? 

[(PSN)Crixus044]

DE, I'm gonna add to this brainstorm of ideas.

Have the Combo Counter scale up faster, be consumed by a heavy attack, BUT have the benefits of the combo meter apply to combo attacks , meaning slide attacks, aerials, and wall attacks won't benefit from the combo counter (Whether or not in contributes to it is up to you DE) while combos from stances will benefit from the combo counter and combo scaling mods.

Instead of focusing on the melee range itself, work on magnetic lock-on for low range melee like Daggers, Fists, Sparring, and other such weapons. This involves closing distances on strikes and auto-targeting, perhaps based around a conical area in front of the warframe's orientation. I've seen many games get this feature as part of their melee for low range weapons and it work out perfectly.

[rapt0rman]

17 hours ago, LazerSkink said:

 

I was more referring to straight up removal of the mod instead of translation into the new system because of my pessimism, but I do hope you're right.

I don't think they've ever removed a mod (not counting unreleased mods acquired through transmuting, though people have gotten to keep those too).

Also they said everything was going to get translated on the devstream.

[YandereWaifu]

13 hours ago, SgtJoe426 said:

But now, without the combo counter and (maybe) bloodrush/weeping applying to normal hits, the melee weapons won't scale very well at high levels. 

combo counter and multiplier are applying to heavy melee hits, what happens with blood rush and weeping wounds is yet to be seen this i refuse to make points or judgements based on them or speculation there of. 

[peterc3]

4 hours ago, EpicBred said:

You could also add bonuses on a well timed dodge

Well timed to you, the host or DE's servers?

[ENDERWlGGlN]

I like all of this except:

"Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack."

This would be very not-fun, and I don't want to see only a few status-build weapons become the meta tyvm.  I really don't even see why this is needed for a balancing standpoint, and it would greatly affect Naramon users (AGAIN).  I think if you do this without some manner of scaling-combat compensation you will lose a significant number of players who prefer to melee their way through higher level enemies.  It would just make melee completely obsolete in drawn-out missions in between heavy attacks.

[TheChaotic1]

I'd like to see channelling be triggered by using stance combos

[Feuershark]

Channeling is kinda like a niche thing, or for special stuff, like Life strike, it's not bad, but it's not awesome.

Also "Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use." Because slam attacks aren't fun & useful ? maybe weapons with a very small aoe have a slam that's not interesting, but a lot of weapons have a pretty good slam attack.

[IfritKajiTora]

23 hours ago, LSG501 said:

if you want to fix spin to win, simples just stop allowing macros

I can spin to win all the time without macros and any effort put into it. You just need some short practice, and then to make if over and over again just to train fingers. Just like getting it done on guitar.
 

 

[boattin1316]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my body and finger they are excited for new move hhehehehehehehehehehehehe for my katana sword...............................oh i really want post my video of my playstyle meele and move (when i using meele i move like im a monster killing everything ahead like i dont care feel like im monster  oh things im not good at gun i good at meele because meele is good for me is like i can do anything) P.S i dont like whip weapon i like using katana , etc oh one things when i using atterax with maiming strike is making me feel like i taste something bad killing enemy , but not feel like i killed it

So i use some katana and etc moves they making feel like i killing something..........fresh and gore......

Oh Dev one things i saw people using trinity link + sanctis catanas is so op - - too op

 

 

[Danjal777]

21 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

What’s that got to do with DE removing melee sustain from the game and acting like it’s a buff?

I love ya BWT, but its about enjoying the game.  I gotta be honest, the new melee looked like it was fun.  It may be more effective right now as rapidly tapping E or sliding around, but it definitely doesn't feel like fighting, it feel like killing pinatas.  I was nervous at first, because this is a massive change, but so was movement 2.0, and damage 2.0...but they were important to making Warframe a fun game to play.  All of these guys that are freaking out need to realize that even though its bitter medicine, in a year they won't even care because they will be either enjoying it, finding different ways to exploit Warframe, or have moved on.  I play Warframe to have fun, the fact that I get materials and new weapons are a byproduct of fighting a hopeless uphill battle against hordes of enemies.   When you have those moments of sheer badassery, like when you jump off of a ledge, aim glide and pop a dude in the head, then slide into another guy, knocking him down, spin attacking into a third guy then bullet jump, turn around and kill the guy you knocked down with a headshot while flying through the air backward...nothing beats that feeling which I believe is what the true essence of Warframe.  Sure those enemies were level 20, no big deal I would have just spin attacked them and had the same effect, but its empty.  

To answer your question directly though, they aren't removing melee sustain, they are adapting the game to rekindle what makes it fun.

[Kaminarion]

Has anyone explained to those decision makers how pitiful melee is without maiming for damage? It's just so bad... You need to attack so many times to stack multiple status effects for Condition Overload to even wake up... 10 seconds per enemy..?? 

[o.0-]

I've been thinking along similar lines, and have been considering another point of input for how we could setup combos. Such as:

• Quick Melee keybind evolves be the go-to for Finishers and special actions.
  • such as quick melee is there to stun, counter, parry and finish, regardless of what weapon is out,
  • so could use the Warframe body to throw elbows, shoulders possibly even the equipped weapon without switching weapons.
• regular Melee is there to damage, kill and block
  • Quick Melee animation gets added to the basic attack animations
  • ability to aim attack angles to what ever allowable degree for targets above and below the warframe.
  • blocking can combine with the other keys to execute more Advanced moves that say would tap into the tracked 'Consecutive Hits' we collect for the Combo Counter.
• the now freed former channel keybind can be there to execute slams, charges, heavy attacks and dodges, in combination with other keybinds.
  • With updated Melee Combos, it would be pretty cool seeing Combo execution be far more nuanced as to what a player intends for the situation at hand.
  • so this keybind and Block could allow for a Charge, alone it could do a basic Heavy Attack, combined with the Quick Melee could perform advanced dodges and while airborne would execute a Slam or combined with a regular attack
  • I can easily imagine being able to execute Blazing Vortex when I want when I see a dense group of enemies and then wail on them with Molten Whirlpool until the enemy turns to mush before me.

So there can be much that could be done, now that now having three separated inputs is being considered in the planning stages, that combos can evolve and combat in general can flow better, as Quick Melee would then no longer be a direct damage function and be a support to what is currently equipped, and then using Melee would provide more control over what a player is doing in the field.

[ClausKnight]

Hey Guys just writing my thoughts on this I can be wrong on some things but just giving my two cents here.

It sounds good that you want to do some changes on melee, it does make sense after all but it is something a bit sensitive. The whole melee through walls, it's good but you guys should fix the whole Ancient magical can find you tentacle attack even backwards while you are doing that.

The whole spining thing I've never really used it and from what it looked like, it was handy but removing it all together would be wrong I feel. Make it more balanced would probably be the best bet.

Going for the more important bits:

Blocking and channeling: channeling hasn't been really my thing and I always avoided it so can't say much but making blocking as a constant energy drain sounds dumb. Three things in fighting that shouldn't cost a thing: attack, evade and blocking don't change what is working fine I would say.

Combo counter: going up faster sounds good and interesting but applying damage multiplier only to heavy attacks? really? that's just wrong, both normal and heavy should benefit from damage multiplier, after all it is what is currently happening the exception in my case is heavy attacks and that's because they are slow and take forever to do which leaves me open to attacks and breaking my flow which would be not rewarding as you don't want to die or suffer damage unnecessarily. How will this affect the different mods we all have like Blood Rush, Berserker, Weeping Wounds? These have become mandatory mods on builds now a days, what about the status builds that benefit a bit from damage multiplier too?

I have a build I enjoy on my dual kamas that kills quickly, if you employ this change and from a quick kill it becomes a slow kill why should I use the weapon again? I ask this as most weapons as long as they have a good build can kill well but these changes can alter the way weapons work making fun ones become obsolete and useless nothing more than mastery fodder.

Stances and Heavy Attacks: You guys also mentioned about stances having the same combo types, doesn't sounds bad after all I use the normal combo and the block combo which seem to be the more helpful ones to me, if every stance is going to be the same have you thought of giving them different heavy attacks? What I mean is instead of making heavy attacks take forever and only hit one enemy (makes it look really pointless and a waste of the build up), make it do special things like for example with an hammer in one stance the heavy attack does a slam attacks that causes heavy damage around the frame and stuns and with another stance it sends a shockwave forward for like 5 meters or something, that way players can still use stances (probably need different name after) and do different attack types which could help on different situations. For example with the Galatine you could perhaps send a wave forward with a big wide arc and have another that drains enemies hp to recover yours?

You can always instead of spending all of the combo multiplier you got from the normal attacks in a single heavy attack, could instead perhaps use a portion of it to spend on the heavy attack, like: got 10 combo multiplier, use heavy attack it reduces to 7 that way we don't lose the entire combo multiplier on one single attack and have to smash the button again to raise it up.

Range: So range is going to be adjusted, sounds good but how will this affect the mods we have, can you guys give an idea on how this will affect the mods we have for it?

Base Damage increase: So if you guys just do the simple explanation we got on the devstream how will this work after all just increasing damage doesn't mean anything if the weapons end up doing worse than when we only had the mods to rely on. It is nice that you guys are thinking on increasing it but it would have to not make weapons useless and once again nothing more than mastery fodder.

In general sounds like a good idea and all up for it but it is something you guys have to be careful with, I personally like Warframe all round but melee does play quite a bit for me and it is the same for other players and for some even more. I hope you guys really nail it.

[WindigoTG]

Well, what can I say? I'm definately interested to see what will come out of this rework. However, I have to say, reworking a system without understanding what is wrong with it may result in a different system with equally wrong stuff within it.

 

And my main reason to think that this may be exactly the case is the new attraction toward the enemy a-la archmelee.

This is the definition of Bandaid Development. Instead of getting rid of cause of the problem, let's add an additional mechanic ,that will allow to get close enough to desireable result, accounting for the cause of the problem being present within the system.

In this case, the problem is: being stuck at place during melee attacks, resulting in troubles of maneuvering around the battlefield.

The cause is: being stuck in attack animation.

The right solution would be: making lower body unaffected by the animation, and allowing free movement while the upper body is busy with swings and stuff.

The example of this in action: Blind Justice. I do realize that everething about Blind Justice is a pure accident, and free movement is definately unintentional, but it works marvelously, and it feels great.

Being attracked to the enemy does solve the problem of getting from enemy to enemy, but it doen's solve the problem of general maneuverability. Like, for example, what if you want to move towards cover and smack some grineer in the face along the way too?

Targeted slam attack looks great, though!

 

And the thing about the current melee system is, the system itself isn't all that bad. It is just filled with bad components.

Namely, stances.

Every stance but one is @.#.$.%.^.N.G.   T.E.R.R.I.B.L.E.

Stances are filled with inconvinient, frustrating, unfun to execute inputs for combos.

Stances are filled with combos that have questionable effects, or combos being similar to one another, whether in function or looks.

Why would sombody use a combo that is pain in the tailpipe to execute? It isn't fun.

Why would somebody use a combo that looks too similar to the other one? It isn't all that interesting.

Why would somebody use a combo that is objectively weaker than the other one? It isn't effective.

All of that result in the easiest, strongest combo being chosen and being spammed till kingdom come.

And if you are gonna just spam something anyway, you may just spam slide attack, it is the simpliest and the most effective one.

 

You know what's fun in current melee system?

Blind Justice is fun.

It allows free movement, it has easy an convinient inputs for combos, it has meaningful combos with distinc effects (the Badass-looking-Maneuverable-Slash-proc-ing one, the Focused-for-a-tough-opponent one and Wider-crowd-affecting one ), resulting in you being constantly engaged and thinking about what you should use at any particular moment, in any particular situation.

 

In order for melee to be good, all the stances must brought up to something similar.

Combos must be easy and comfortable to execute. Combos must have a reason to be used.

I hope that what Scott have said about stances will lead to exactly that.

Because without that Meme Strike will always be the king.

Line of sight won't change scrap. If I get to sliding, I slide right into the bunch of enemy faces anyway, so I won't even notice the difference.

 

So, please, DE, get the stances right. Please. Otherwise all that work you are doing is going to be in vain.

[Yurinaga]

22 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

• While channeled blocking is useful on paper (hello 100% damage block + enemy hits reflected back), channeled damage has never really been celebrated beyond 'cool factor'. Getting rid of a separate channeling button frees up an input allowing us an additional attack button to use in combos making them easier to perform.
• Channeling is blocking, blocking is channeling! Normal blocking now performs like channeled blocking currently does [There's still the issue of having to switch to meleé before being able to use it, which wouldn't be a problem if not for the currently arthritic weapon holster/draw rate (Get rid of Speed Holster and make it universal.)]. Experiments such as constant energy drain [In which case, it will be used about as often as channeling because Warframe powers take priority] or a separate resource [Like the stamina bar of yore?], blocked hits adding to Combo Counter are ongoing. [I'd go with the latter two]
• We're still working on how/if to include the 'cool factor' of Channeling in combat.
• Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack. [Then I'd suggest letting it remain indefinitely until spent; Body Count/Drifting Contact should NOT be as mandatory for heavy attacks as they are now for Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, otherwise new players will still be unnecessarily penalised.]
• Revisiting Melee will focus on slam and heavy attacks to make them more useful and fun to use.
• You'll be able to dual wield any one-handed weapon with any secondary weapon - as shown many moons ago on a Devstream! [I cannot wait, provided you can actually use the combos without having to switch to meleé, otherwise it'd be just as pointless as the Glaive version. Don't stop there though, allow single daggers to be dual-wielded with primaries and secondaries, get rid of the speargun alt-fire and make it so it takes up both the primary and meleé slots and uses staff stances so that the Stargate reference made during the Javlok reveal actually makes sense.]
• Dodge canceling any melee attack!
• FX treatment representing the true Range of melee attacks will be implemented.
• Mod adjustments will come to speak to the above, too! We will be taking a look at everything! 

And last but not least, and sadly what only looks like one bullet point but actually touches well over 100 weapons, and is in fact parallel to the depth of the Secondary/Primary rework we did this year:
 

• Complete stat and Mastery Rank pass in line with the Primary and Secondary weapons.
• Base damage increased significantly to compensate for loss of channeling and combo counter multiplier on normal attacks
• Stances will be revisited to normalize combo inputs AND all combos will be reorganized to be more useful and fun to use! [Most important: GIVE THE LIKES OF IRON PHOENIX AND BLEEDING WILLOW A SECOND COMBO AT THE VERY LEAST (E spam doesn't count)!!]

Very welcome changes, especially to channeling, which was pretty much dead on arrival (all the way back in update 13). When an entire mechanic's worth hinges on a single mod (Life Strike), you know something has gone awfully wrong.

There is also this almost 2-second hang-up that occurs after an aerial attack, during which you cannot shoot/swing again. Will that be addressed as well?

[JK21Games]

To everyone who is going on and on about how great the current Combo counter is... I'm going to be your wake up call.

- The current Combo Counter disappears after a mere 3 seconds by default. Again, by default your way that melee damage "scales" vanishes after 3 seconds of not hitting something. You guys really think that's acceptable? Sure there are the ol' duration increase crutch mods, but don't mistake those for anything but bandaids on a bad system. Why exactly am I hitting something with a weak noodle after three seconds anyways? How does that make any sense?

- You are actively punished by the Combo Counter for not using melee weapons. Want to switch to guns for a bit? Kiss all of your melee stacks that you've worked to build up goodbye. I'm being effectively forced to use melee to make melee get to a place where its worth using, instead of being able to switch between it at will. I'm not punished that way for switching to a Secondary Weapon from my Primary Weapon, so why is there this mechanic that punishes me for wanting to use other weapons? Shoot, the closest thing is Sniper Combo, but in no way are Sniper Rifles made ineffective without Combo Counter. If anything, that's just a bonus for already very strong weapons.

- Speaking of the above, I'm engaging in ranged battle when an enemy suddenly appears before me. I whip out the melee weapon to find... its ineffective for the first while, well... See the problem there? Melee should be a quick response, but with the ramp up time, it ends up not actually being a quick and easy response because it is initially unreliable.

- On those duration mods... ever notice how they manage to be just short enough to vanish in between ye ol' defense/interception rounds? Proceed to hit someone with a wet noodle for a while until combo counter builds up.

- Blood Rush is a crutch. Ok, there is a hilariously large discrepancy between that mod at even 1.5x combo (which takes all of 5 melee hits to reach) and poor little True Steel (which should be the primary melee crit chance mod after all). Seriously, its a factor of slightly over 4x the effectiveness of True Steel at 5 melee hits or a 1.5x counter. We all know and use this, lets not pretend this sort of power discrepancy makes any bit of sense. No other weapon group needs +247.5% crit chance (at 1.5x multiplier), +330% crit chance (at 2x multiplier), or +495% crit chance (at 3x multiplier) on a single mod to be considered viable. Hek, crit weapons in other classes aren't judged by whether or not they can orange/red crit since that's basically unnecessary for the vast majority of them. Yes Blood Rush has "worked" up to this point as a band aid solution for melee being ineffective as a weapon class prior to its existence, but lets not treat Blood Rush as something that should exist forever in its present state. I should be able to pull off a melee crit build that is every bit as effective as similar primary and secondary builds using only True Steel and Organ Shatter. We all know that build doesn't scale almost at all though because of the poor melee damage by default and neither of these mods exponentially scaling like Blood Rush/Condition Overload. Hence why Blood Rush has been necessary up to now. But see, this is the time when they can actually fix this by bringing up melee damage and crit potential so that it actually can stand by itself and not be pathetic. If they can do this so that we get consistently performing melee weapons that hit hard all the time and don't punish you for using other weapons, isn't that better than just having Blood Rush serve as the eternal crutch?

So just because Blood Rush makes crit melee good now, lets not overlook the big issues with it and Combo counter as they currently exist. This isn't a good system, it just has a lot of band aids that people are used to and which makes them think its good. Once you peel those off, you realize that it has a ton of flaws, you've just adapted to these flaws and gotten used to them.

[George_PPS]

"Combo Counter minimum hits per tier adjusted significantly so higher tiers can be reached more quickly and easily. Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack."

This change is absolutely the worst thing I've ever seen from DE. The current combo system works well and change something that works? This is a huge nerf to melee weapons many players like to use the most. 

[Azamagon]

On 2018-05-11 at 9:09 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

-snip-

Alright, this is something I -REALLY- want to delve into discussing. So let's!

First things first - The stuff I like and agreed upon (but still need to toss in a comment about):

• Channelblocking being the default blocking - Good! But it should definitely not be tied to energy (not immediately at least, I'll get to that later)
• More use of Slam and Heavy attacks (i.e. charge-attacks) - Good! But Heavy attacks need a more... drastic rework.
• Dualwielding - It's nice, but can it be optional? Since the dualwield uses a unique stance for Glaives, for example, which features lots of ragdolling... well, it can be tedious to use sometimes.
• Dodge cancelling any attack - Perfect!
• FX treatment representing true melee range - Yesss, this is great!
• Normalized combo inputs - I'm cautiously optimistic about this. Can be amazing, can be a slog, we'll see!
• Additional button freed up, allowing a more "typical" combo system - That's great!

Things I (maybe) disagreed with, but maybe not for the immediate reason you think

• Melee not passing through the environment - This is NOT gonna be a good idea. Will it likely destroy some of the Maiming Strike cheese? Most certainly (and that's great!). But it also runs a serious risk of breaking melee fighting in general (which is obviously NOT so great). Imo, it feels a bit of a bandaid/kneejerk attempt at fixing Maiming Strike issues, when the Maiming Strike mod is not necessarily the issue, but the situation rather needs a more elaborate fix than that (more to that later).
• Channeled attacks going away entirely - I'm on the fence. Overall, this sounds like a good idea, as it barely did anything... in the CURRENT balancing. WIth some number tweaks, channeling could've been viable though. Not to mention, it could've been a way to allow allies to hit enemies crossrift when teamed with a Limbo etc. It's an interesting mechanic. But if it has to go away, then so be it!
• Combo points uselessness on regular melee + consumed entirely with Heavy attacks - The only thing I feel is most likely entirely a bad idea. WIth some massive revamps to base damage, this might not be an issue, sure. But it still feels like the combo counter is such an awesome way to integrate some scalable damage, not to mention how the system meshes with a lot of Warframe powers. I think the combo counter should, mostly, be left alone. But having Heavy attacks requiring some fuel in some way, that sounds neat, especially if Heavy attacks become monstrous attacks...

On to my suggestions!

• Changing things up, radically - Slideattacks and Heavy attacks get VERY rearranged in useage.
  • Slideattacks - No longer does 360 degree attacks with any weapon. Instead, they do more fast "gapclosing" single-target attacks (i.e. dashing thrusts/punches/kicks/stabs), with quite a lot of distanceclosing. Damage gets higher the further away the attack was done towards the target. Thus, spamming the slideattack in an enemy's face will not yield spectacular results, it's meant as a powerful initiaiton tool.
  • Heavy attacks - Differentiated into two different attacks:
    • Regular heavy attack - Performed by holding down the main melee button (thus also useable from quickmelee). A more utility based attack, which does something neat for the specific weaponclass. Examples of attacks:
      • Glaive -> Throw glaive
      • Gunblade -> Shoot
      • Rapier -> Current thrust-attack, with added Impact-proc
      • Polearm + Staff -> Thrust-attack with Impact-proc (or; Polevault kick with knockback ragdoll)
      • Dual Daggers -> Toss a dagger (you could have some "ammo" for this, and could function similar to how the Primary Javelins do, being pick-up-able etc!)
      • Sparring -> With some mild forward movement, a roundhouse kick with knockback ragdoll
      • Fists -> After a short dash, an uppercut with upwards ragdoll
      • Sword & Shield -> With some mild forward movement, a shieldbash with knockdown+knockback
      • Warfan -> Small wind-cone, pushing back + Impact-proccing them (no damage)
      • Heavy blade / Scythe / Hammer / Staff etc -> Wide slash/smash, with ragdoll (does the Zenistar disc launch and Caustacyst acid launch too). This attack would be what MOST weaponcategories uses, if nothing unique can be thought up for it.
      • Stuff like that. Not necessarily the most damaging attacks, but useful for other reasons (basicly; stuff like range or snap CC).
    • Empowered heavy attack - Performed by holding down the NEW melee attack button (and thus only accessable when equipping your melee). This would be an entirely new attack, which does a far-reaching (i.e. range-increased) 360 degree attack, with TONS of power, regardless of what weapon is being used (but ofc has individual animations). Also uses the "channeling" flashiness (possibly including dissolving enemies?), to emphasize that these attacks are some seriously empowered attacks. But, it's an attack with LIMITATIONS! How is it limitted? Well, I haven't really figured that out yet, but something like this:
      • Consumes X amount of combo points. The amount depends on the weapontype (daggers consume little, like 5, while heavy blades consume more, like 10, for example. Simply due to range and damage-differences). This gives you a reason to weave in BOTH regular attacks and heavy attacks. And sacrificing some combo points for a devastating and huge AoE melee attack, to me, sounds more than reasonable.
      • On top of that, there is a slight "cooldown" on these chargeattacks (similar to aimgliding). Just so you don't spam 10 attacks in a row (considering how powerful and far-reaching they are).
      • On some weapons, the attack doesn't have to be 360 degrees around the Warframe, but could rather be a rather forward-reaching conical strike. Still makes it a huge-area-clearer attack, but gives the various empowered heavy attacks some individual flair.
  • Maiming Strike (and its Riven-equivalent) - Let it apply to slideattacks, air attacks, slamattacks, wallattacks and maybe even the Empowered heavy attacks!
• Wall attacks - Give them the same effect as your proposed slam-attacks, but allowed at any angle (although, with limitted but still far-reaching, travel distance), making them awesome (but situational) gapclosing tools!
• Blocking - Adds combo points when attacked, reflects damage BUT runs on a limitted rechargable timer (akin to aimgliding), and this timer ought to be visible (could be as a circle, where the reload circle is?). Attempting to use block beyond this timer, will then start draining energy.
• Channeling mods -> Don't remove them, just revamp them! For example:
  • Life Strike -> Could now be Life GUARD, for example: Damage reflected is now also damage HEALED for the Warframe.
  • Dispatch Overdrive -> Could now be based on Empowered heavy attack kills instead?
  • Focus Energy -> Still Electricity damage, but the other bonus could now be Empowered heavy attack combocost reduction?
  • Reflex Coil -> Like Focus Energy's second bonus; Empowered heavy attack combocost reduction?
  • Parry -> Increases the maximum blocktimer (total recharge timer remains the same though!)
  • Focused Defense -> Increases the blocking angle (so you can block more to the sides) + the blocking reflection-damage?
  • Killing Blow -> Increases damage of Empowered heavy attacks
  • Corrupt Charge -> Increase damage of Empowered heavy attacks a lot more, but increases their combocost mildly
  • Quickening -> Each attack blocked increases melee attackspeed by X% for 1 strike. Can max stack for 20 strikes.
  • Just some examples. Hope this can be of any inspiration 🙂

 

All in all, even if everything I just said was a complete waste of time, what you guys have proposed for melee 3.0 (with only the exception of the combo counter revamp, maybe, depending on the intended statbuffs), I'm actually really excited for these changes! 🙂

[LemonNade4Kavinh]

30 minutes ago, JK21Games said:

To everyone who is going on and on about how great the current Combo counter is... I'm going to be your wake up call.

- The current Combo Counter disappears after a mere 3 seconds by default. Again, by default your way that melee damage "scales" vanishes after 3 seconds of not hitting something. You guys really think that's acceptable? Sure there are the ol' duration increase crutch mods, but don't mistake those for anything but bandaids on a bad system. Why exactly am I hitting something with a weak noodle after three seconds anyways? How does that make any sense?

- You are actively punished by the Combo Counter for not using melee weapons. Want to switch to guns for a bit? Kiss all of your melee stacks that you've worked to build up goodbye. I'm being effectively forced to use melee to make melee get to a place where its worth using, instead of being able to switch between it at will. I'm not punished that way for switching to a Secondary Weapon from my Primary Weapon, so why is there this mechanic that punishes me for wanting to use other weapons? Shoot, the closest thing is Sniper Combo, but in no way are Sniper Rifles made ineffective without Combo Counter. If anything, that's just a bonus for already very strong weapons.

- Speaking of the above, I'm engaging in ranged battle when an enemy suddenly appears before me. I whip out the melee weapon to find... its ineffective for the first while, well... See the problem there? Melee should be a quick response, but with the ramp up time, it ends up not actually being a quick and easy response because it is initially unreliable.

- On those duration mods... ever notice how they manage to be just short enough to vanish in between ye ol' defense/interception rounds? Proceed to hit someone with a wet noodle for a while until combo counter builds up.

- Blood Rush is a crutch. Ok, there is a hilariously large discrepancy between that mod at even 1.5x combo (which takes all of 5 melee hits to reach) and poor little True Steel (which should be the primary melee crit chance mod after all). Seriously, its a factor of slightly over 4x the effectiveness of True Steel at 5 melee hits or a 1.5x counter. We all know and use this, lets not pretend this sort of power discrepancy makes any bit of sense. No other weapon group needs +247.5% crit chance (at 1.5x multiplier), +330% crit chance (at 2x multiplier), or +495% crit chance (at 3x multiplier) on a single mod to be considered viable. Hek, crit weapons in other classes aren't judged by whether or not they can orange/red crit since that's basically unnecessary for the vast majority of them. Yes Blood Rush has "worked" up to this point as a band aid solution for melee being ineffective as a weapon class prior to its existence, but lets not treat Blood Rush as something that should exist forever in its present state. I should be able to pull off a melee crit build that is every bit as effective as similar primary and secondary builds using only True Steel and Organ Shatter. We all know that build doesn't scale almost at all though because of the poor melee damage by default and neither of these mods exponentially scaling like Blood Rush/Condition Overload. Hence why Blood Rush has been necessary up to now. But see, this is the time when they can actually fix this by bringing up melee damage and crit potential so that it actually can stand by itself and not be pathetic. If they can do this so that we get consistently performing melee weapons that hit hard all the time and don't punish you for using other weapons, isn't that better than just having Blood Rush serve as the eternal crutch?

So just because Blood Rush makes crit melee good now, lets not overlook the big issues with it and Combo counter as they currently exist. This isn't a good system, it just has a lot of band aids that people are used to and which makes them think its good. Once you peel those off, you realize that it has a ton of flaws, you've just adapted to these flaws and gotten used to them.

here a thing, you going full melee Building the counter is just a point, gun at this point already bored you, and it easier to build melee since you know you want to melee. The issue we have here is now the amount of counter you build is only effect *heavy attack* Why??. Sure blood rush is over kill but at least it make some weapon that status heavy could be Crits. So that player who can't afford "Condition Overload" can go "Hey i can at least go for them Crits with some easier build. With the changes go "heavy attack now only Be damage boost by Counter"  Why even bother with stances when player now going to I GOT MY COUNTER UP TIME TO SPAM HEAVY. Imagine if the hammer heavy attack is a Big slam with decent AOE (can be boost with range mod or does more dmg with crits) "welcome to the new meta, here guys we have a heavy hammer just build counter to somewhat of a 3x, since DE make it easier. You can now go Slam Jam your way off all the enemy"

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, IfritKajiTora said:

I can spin to win all the time without macros and any effort put into it. You just need some short practice, and then to make if over and over again just to train fingers. Just like getting it done on guitar.

Majority use macro's, not everyone is going to go down the route of rsi etc.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, Danjal777 said:

I love ya BWT, but its about enjoying the game.  I gotta be honest, the new melee looked like it was fun.  It may be more effective right now as rapidly tapping E or sliding around, but it definitely doesn't feel like fighting, it feel like killing pinatas.  I was nervous at first, because this is a massive change, but so was movement 2.0, and damage 2.0...but they were important to making Warframe a fun game to play.  All of these guys that are freaking out need to realize that even though its bitter medicine, in a year they won't even care because they will be either enjoying it, finding different ways to exploit Warframe, or have moved on.  I play Warframe to have fun, the fact that I get materials and new weapons are a byproduct of fighting a hopeless uphill battle against hordes of enemies.   When you have those moments of sheer badassery, like when you jump off of a ledge, aim glide and pop a dude in the head, then slide into another guy, knocking him down, spin attacking into a third guy then bullet jump, turn around and kill the guy you knocked down with a headshot while flying through the air backward...nothing beats that feeling which I believe is what the true essence of Warframe.  Sure those enemies were level 20, no big deal I would have just spin attacked them and had the same effect, but its empty.  

To answer your question directly though, they aren't removing melee sustain, they are adapting the game to rekindle what makes it fun.

So, two things:

 

One, DE keep trying to design systems as if Warframe were a slower paced tactical shooter and not a horde shooter, and then wondering why the community savages their suggestions. The game which DE think Warframe is sounds like a really good game! But that is not the game which they actually made. If they wanna make that game, they need to go back and redo basically everything, lower the overall power level, make stealth and positioning more important, and improve enemy AI.

 

Two, Life Strike is dead, and I suspect that DE will be similarly nerfing stuff like Healing Return. There is no way in hell that this is not a nerf being applied to melee life steal/regeneration/sustain.

[Oksanya]

Well fiddle-sticks..it seems like the entirety of the melee category is going to experience a massive nerf...god damn it, DE, can you stop ruining your own game?  It's like they don't KNOW this is a horde game.