[Update 22.2.0] Saryn Revisted 2.0 Feedback MEGATHREAD

[PikeOrShield]

Solid changes overall.  The armor stripping is great and having Toxic Lash work on all weapons lets you dish out tons of damage without having to get into melee range with those lvl 100+ bombards.  Miasma also feels much better as well now that armor gets stripped away by spores.  The speed boost on molt took getting used to, but I found it to be very useful for aiming without losing any speed, closing the gap when in melee, racing to extraction, or running away.

I've been playing mostly Saryn ever since her rework a couple years ago.  I'm really going to miss being able to nuke with a gas weapon, but I find the consistant damage from the new spore to be an okay trade off.

I would say the main downside of the rework would be how hard you get punished if you're not careful with your spore targets.  You only get one cast to build on, so if you don't spore areas with high enemy densities you will be recasting spore often.  I can understand why people who don't use mods like Overextended feel like spores don't do enough.  I never felt that Overextended was required in a Saryn build before since you could always just recast spores, but the new Saryn needs to keep her one cast rolling or she loses the snowball effect so I would say Overextended is almost too valuable to not use in a spore reliant build.

[Camato]

1 hour ago, PikeOrShield said:

I would say the main downside of the rework would be how hard you get punished if you're not careful with your spore targets.  You only get one cast to build on, so if you don't spore areas with high enemy densities you will be recasting spore often.  I can understand why people who don't use mods like Overextended feel like spores don't do enough.  I never felt that Overextended was required in a Saryn build before since you could always just recast spores, but the new Saryn needs to keep her one cast rolling or she loses the snowball effect so I would say Overextended is almost too valuable to not use in a spore reliant build.

you need the range, otherwise your spore spread between enemys is just crap.

I would say a build would go 200%PS cold so you have a 100% SC on your corrosive proc, range and the rest on duration so you dont starve on energy while recasting toxic lash.

Im not sure, but did they fixed the spore bug already? i read something in the patchnotes, but im not sure its the scource of the "cant recast spores" bug.

[SyBuhr]

4 hours ago, ZarakkiZenn said:

Saryn's dull now. That's all I have to say. It was active and rewarding gameplay that drew people to Saryn. Now, you can pretty much hit spores once and forget about it. They'll kill, they'll do the work for you.. off in the distance, without you having to do anything; and if you do want to spread spores as much as possible, it's more of a pain than anything and something that detracts from core gameplay mechanics: "see an enemy, kill it".

She's good, don't get me wrong, and I suspect people who didn't like Saryn might come around to playing her because of how easy it is to get kills. But Saryn was an active frame at its core, focused around spreading spores. This rework pays no respect to that fact and hence, I fear, people who liked Saryn won't. Much like Ember, her usage statistics will go down, I suspect as much as 50% (outside of onslaught). That should be all the feedback that is required to make an informed decision.

Even though she was my favorite frame, I felt a rework would go a long way to making her better, but the rework I had in mind wouldn't go against her her core mechanics and style, it wouldn't contradict the essence of the frame -not thematically, mind you, but in terms of the user experience-. Make her 2 and 3 suck up all the spores in her vicinity and grant a buff of some kind, defense and offense; make her 4 infuse active spores with corrosive damage and procs to then spread say corrosive damage and procs. Voila, you're done.

Even Mesa is more engaging now (and that's saying a lot!), as at least you select an area of the map to then trash with peacemaker, which is quite satisfying.  Akin to how you'd select an enemy to spread spores from and cover and area, also quite satisfying, except now you don't. You hit spores once then sorta kinda babysit trying to find out where exactly they spread to so you can kill an enemy there and continue spreading them, only for them to eventually die from nothingness and start the process over again. It's easy to get kills, in that sense she's good, but awful in how she plays.

Saryn feels stressful to play the way DE intended to play her, where as before I found it more relaxed and confident that my spores would spread consistently, without much thought. Now it feels like I have almost a chore set in-front of me, and I find myself either hindered by team-mates or awful spawns, to the point where I don't even use her spores anymore.

They are legitimately not worth the hassle in any sense now, and while the scaling damage, and infinite duration are great on paper, you will never see those benefits unless you play like an absolute potato.

That said, I do agree with DE's point, the Molt -> Spore combo to just sit and spam that was horrendous. I never personally used it, because there was never a need to, and I didn't find any appeal of it what-so-ever. But I feel that DE might have over-shot in fixing the perceived issue.

[SyBuhr]

1 hour ago, PikeOrShield said:

Solid changes overall.  The armor stripping is great and having Toxic Lash work on all weapons lets you dish out tons of damage without having to get into melee range with those lvl 100+ bombards.  Miasma also feels much better as well now that armor gets stripped away by spores.  The speed boost on molt took getting used to, but I found it to be very useful for aiming without losing any speed, closing the gap when in melee, racing to extraction, or running away.

I've been playing mostly Saryn ever since her rework a couple years ago.  I'm really going to miss being able to nuke with a gas weapon, but I find the consistant damage from the new spore to be an okay trade off.

I would say the main downside of the rework would be how hard you get punished if you're not careful with your spore targets.  You only get one cast to build on, so if you don't spore areas with high enemy densities you will be recasting spore often.  I can understand why people who don't use mods like Overextended feel like spores don't do enough.  I never felt that Overextended was required in a Saryn build before since you could always just recast spores, but the new Saryn needs to keep her one cast rolling or she loses the snowball effect so I would say Overextended is almost too valuable to not use in a spore reliant build.

Range isn't the only issue ; If you built Saryn during her 2.0 time, Spore spread range was insane, even without the Molt concept, while still having a great damage type (viral). Back then, I am also sure that the spread range was the same as cast-range (as they were one stat). Now they are apparently three separate stats, with diminishing returns.

Now, range is an issue, along with the sad fact that, you will never actually maintain decent damage to make the chore of getting to that Damage-per-tick worth it, as well as the fact that team-mates can ruin your progress entirely, or make your spores completely worthless from the beginning depending on team-composition. Your frames first power is at the mercy of those around you, and it is extremely difficult for people (especially in PUGs) to work with this efficiently. Before you could consistently spore the map, even without the Molt-Combo, now you cannot do that, either due to team-mates, bad enemy spawns, or strange-spore-spreading.

Spore is in a pretty bad spot right now, and while you can get some sweet damage numbers, the stars have to align for it, and it feels almost pointless to do so because in three seconds, it would disappear, and you will have to start all over. It is a boring style, that gets old really quick, if not stressful.

Molt is awesome now, Toxic Lash is great. Spore and Miasma are the only two that concern me with her rework.

[Cibyllae]

3 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

Back then, I am also sure that the spread range was the same as cast-range (as they were one stat)

They were always separate stats.

@1:02 you can see Power(cast) Range and Spread Range as two separate stats.

[PikeOrShield]

2 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

Range isn't the only issue ; If you built Saryn during her 2.0 time, Spore spread range was insane, even without the Molt concept, while still having a great damage type (viral). Back then, I am also sure that the spread range was the same as cast-range (as they were one stat). Now they are apparently three separate stats, with diminishing returns.

Now, range is an issue, along with the sad fact that, you will never actually maintain decent damage to make the chore of getting to that Damage-per-tick worth it, as well as the fact that team-mates can ruin your progress entirely, or make your spores completely worthless from the beginning depending on team-composition. Your frames first power is at the mercy of those around you, and it is extremely difficult for people (especially in PUGs) to work with this efficiently. Before you could consistently spore the map, even without the Molt-Combo, now you cannot do that, either due to team-mates, bad enemy spawns, or strange-spore-spreading.

Spore is in a pretty bad spot right now, and while you can get some sweet damage numbers, the stars have to align for it, and it feels almost pointless to do so because in three seconds, it would disappear, and you will have to start all over. It is a boring style, that gets old really quick, if not stressful.

Molt is awesome now, Toxic Lash is great. Spore and Miasma are the only two that concern me with her rework.

Spore spread range is still the same, you get the full spread if the spore is popped and half range if the target dies.  I think the main reason it feels so inconsistent is that you can't just recast spore anymore.  Previously if you ran into a non-spored target it wasn't a big issue.  Load them up with gas procs and cast spore on them and your job was done.  Now you have to hunt down the spore targets if you want to keep it rolling  It still works really well in maps where you don't move much (high level defense, ESO, etc.), but doesn't feel very good to restart your spores so often in normal missions cause you lose out on your damage.

[PikeOrShield]

I think a positive change would be to make spores recast-able without ending your current stack.  However, this would probably need to be balanced out with some sort of nerf.  Recast-able spores would make them way more consistent and you wouldn't need to go hunt down your spore targets at the edge of the map all the time.  I think a good way to balance that out would be something along the lines of "your stacks degrade overtime unless you are popping spores."

DE Pablo mentioned on his twitter that he was looking to make changes that make her stronger in normal missions and not as oppressive in ESO, and I think a change like this would make her play-style a lot more active (can't camp in a corner if your stacks degrade) while giving her the consistency her previous iteration had.  Players who run around and try to spread spores won't really notice much of a nerf, but they will be able to cast spores more freely while stacks degrading when spores are not popped will put an end to the passive style of play in ESO.

Edited May 19, 2018 by PikeOrShield

[catastrophy]

The only time I can make spores work is in onslaught. And then it feels like easy mode. Spores are now OP - their spawning mechanism is there to stop it happen unchecked.

I don't really need unlimited scaling. I don't want unlimited scaling. It'd be perfect to give us moderate damage and good armour stripping effect and go with the old spore transmissions. This way the Saryn player AND the team will benefit from synergies. Everbody gets targets that are not as bullet spongy anymore and still has to get to it to kill them.

I've played Saryn like the "Freeman" - that's whjat I called her. The Freeman can do with a crowbar, right? And that's what I did. Cast some spores - get into the fray and slash my way through. With eyes and ears. The procs would guide me through the mission. I'd hear them and that added to my awareness. Yes, on their own spores didn't do so much on higher levels. Still, I believe the viral procs helped the team when I was still struggling with the enemy armour scaling above my capabilities.

And honestly - if molt camping was the problem, it would have just required to remove the spores castable on molt.

Now, I didn't get to fully explore the potential with adding toxin to my playstyle - she got changed before I could explore that fully. (I got the venom dose augment the night before the rework, too, lol. Too bad.) So I can't say if there is some reason to rework it and nerf the transmissions. But as it is now, I'd rather have less OP spores for more team synergy and more fun - give us back the Freeman.

Nerf the current spore unlimited scaling. Keep the armour stripping. Buff the spore transmission to former glory.

[TyrianMollusk]

I know DE has told us they're just completely blowing off Saryns playing together, but I'd like to make a suggestion for it anyway: make multiple Saryns use the same spore.

• Each Saryn individually can start and stop spores.  If a Saryn is "off" spores, she can throw out a new spore and join the infection like she had cast it.  If she is "on" she can blast all the spores.
• All spores use the same base spore calculations/growth. Average the stats of "on" Saryns or take the lowest, or else track spores by caster and keep their stats on their strain.
• Keep the energy color of the caster on spores spreading from that cast.

It's not perfect by any stretch, but it's better than just saying "Screw everyone who finds another Saryn in their squad."

Hey DE, you can't just say "That's how it was before."  Before this rework spores had infection limits that at least left some possibility for two Saryns to play together (I know: my partner and I have played Saryns together), and it didn't really matter whose spores were spreading, because spores did their jobs on their own.  That's not the case now with new simplified Saryn, where she has to push spores to do anything, and it's the cast/infection status that matters, not individual spore details.  Now those three spore spots get filled right up and whichever Saryn gets in second is hosed.  Not to mention the screw ups with "other people" popping spores and the rest of the mess.  You made HUGE changes here and things are NOT like they were.  Show some responsibility.

Two additional alternative suggestions:

Competing colonies: When a spore tries to spread it always takes a slot on the new host, replacing an existing spore if the slots are full.

Multispores: Each spore slot can be occupied by a spore from every Saryn, but only the most damaging spore actually ticks.  The others just spread and count for their infection and the rest of Saryn's abilities.

Edited May 19, 2018 by TyrianMollusk

[SyBuhr]

1 hour ago, Cibyllae said:

They were always separate stats.

@1:02 you can see Power(cast) Range and Spread Range as two separate stats.

Thanks for the correction!

I know some people said that the inconsistency might be attributed to the fact only one spore at a time can be cast, but I never spammed the ability back then, so I am still at a loss as to why it feels so inconsistent. Still, having multiple spores thrown out would be nice to have again, and would fix the issue.

[Cibyllae]

36 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:

I know some people said that the inconsistency might be attributed to the fact only one spore at a time can be cast, but I never spammed the ability back then, so I am still at a loss as to why it feels so inconsistent

Spores hit box has always been so incredibly hard to hit its ridiculous. My hypothesis is now that AoE does not pop spores, unless a Saryn is using Toxic Lash, we aren't getting random AoE procs to help in spore spread. I think spores are simply popping for half range more reliably now that teammates actually have to hit the spore hitbox. Which has always been incredibly difficult even before Saryn 3.0, it was mitigated by using Weapons with AoE though PreSaryn3.0. Now they are still hard to hit, but we don't have the benefit of AoE. The reliability of teammates to help in spore spreading is down because of this. I think if they increased the hitbox of spores, we would see spores spread more reliably for everyone who is having difficulties.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Cibyllae

[Helmed]

For all the people that like the new saryn spores

Incoming ember-esque nerf

[Misgenesis]

Is anyone hearing these?

Quote

Saryn is also coming with a whole new set of sounds voiced by [DE]Danielle. 

Or is something wrong on my end

[Ceteruler]

On 2018-05-17 at 3:02 PM, Airwolfen said:

After extensive testing I do have to say that she needs a way to either store her spore damage or reapply it. currently its really hard to come back when spores are spread too far out.

Suggestion to let Miasma take and reapply all spores. in her range. allowing for more control over where her spores go.

 

20 hours ago, Naneel said:

Had some time to play her more. And she is definitely not bad but could use some tweaks.

You put to much in her 1st skill. Why is her 1st skill the one to deal the most damge (even if it takes some time) ? Make it recastable, without popping the spores and use her scaling damge not for the spores itself but for the next skill you cast (just store it and use everything stored up on the next skill). This way it would be much less painful if the spores die out.

• The scaling damage could deal more damage on the next miasma (per tick or overall)
• Toxic lash could get a higher damage buff or alonger duartion
• Not sure if Molt can benefit from this, maybe make it a healing over time (like the augment)

 

On 2018-05-18 at 6:08 AM, HidesHisFace said:

Lack of ability to recast can be the issue if you have two+ groups of enemies coming from different directions. The single cast feels forced, and as many mentioned before, the exploding of spores binded under the same key more often than not leads to killing your spores by accident. Instead of using spores multiple times, you now have to do it only once - and it is annoying and hard to suddenly change the way you use the ability by 180 degrees. Why not allow her to "store" three casts or so - and after that every new cast would destroy the spores of the oldest cast? It would be far more intuitive in my opinion, and far more versatile.

These ideas are worth consideration. The goal of the changes to Spores was to make them more damage oriented; some sort of storage mechanism sounds like a fantastic alternative. Of course a storage mechanism runs the risk of making them indirectly damaging, which would be moving away from the initial goal. This alternative might, however, open up space for Spores to maintain some of the appealing traits from before, such as widespread viral procs or toxin propagation.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Rhokkes
shorten quotes

[Ceteruler]

9 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Is anyone hearing these?

Or is something wrong on my end

I believe the new voice bites are less "voice" and more "sound." I'm hearing gurgles/slithers/fluids/hisses rather than anything recognizable as a voice. The sounds could have begun as voice clips from Danielle, but they've probably been filtered, butchered and Frankenstein'ed.

[m0b1us1]

So from my experience, Saryn has 1 major problem.

Spore is only reliable when playing solo onslaught or with a team that doesn't kill a lot. So you are the only dps frame and the only one with big weapons.

Spores require so much more work to keep spreading and alive to the point where playing with a semi-competent team in... well anything... will result in you losing all your spores at some point. Sure, if the stars align during the winter solctice along with the planets lining up on Friday the 13th, then Saryn rework is crazy strong! However the moment anything changes, then she sucks far worse than before. Make spores more reliable, have better spreading mechanics, and easier to keep alive then I think you have something.

What do I suggest? Getting rid of the second 1 detonation. Why do we need two ways to detonate spores? Let her 4 be the trigger and give us the ability to cast spores multiple times. Allow spores to be cast on any target that does not have a spore on them, including your molt! So the "spam 1 on molt" will still not be possible, and then give molt a much better job of keeping at least 1 spore alive for you at all times. This will ensure that you always have a way to keep your spores up without trying to beat your own team to killing your spore target. Additionally, keep the spore range spread on death the same as popping a spore and whenever an ally kills an enemy with a spore, just let that spore jump to only a single target.

I think the Saryn rework has a long way to go because as of right now, the biggest enemy in the game to Saryn is her own team. Make spores reliable and make Saryn work with a team better, then we can start toning down her insane damage if needed.

[CrudShuzKong]

19 minutes ago, m0b1us1 said:

So from my experience, Saryn has 1 major problem.

Spore is only reliable when playing solo onslaught or with a team that doesn't kill a lot. So you are the only dps frame and the only one with big weapons.

Spores require so much more work to keep spreading and alive to the point where playing with a semi-competent team in... well anything... will result in you losing all your spores at some point. Sure, if the stars align during the winter solctice along with the planets lining up on Friday the 13th, then Saryn rework is crazy strong! However the moment anything changes, then she sucks far worse than before. Make spores more reliable, have better spreading mechanics, and easier to keep alive then I think you have something.

What do I suggest? Getting rid of the second 1 detonation. Why do we need two ways to detonate spores? Let her 4 be the trigger and give us the ability to cast spores multiple times. Allow spores to be cast on any target that does not have a spore on them, including your molt! So the "spam 1 on molt" will still not be possible, and then give molt a much better job of keeping at least 1 spore alive for you at all times. This will ensure that you always have a way to keep your spores up without trying to beat your own team to killing your spore target. Additionally, keep the spore range spread on death the same as popping a spore and whenever an ally kills an enemy with a spore, just let that spore jump to only a single target.

I think the Saryn rework has a long way to go because as of right now, the biggest enemy in the game to Saryn is her own team. Make spores reliable and make Saryn work with a team better, then we can start toning down her insane damage if needed.

I think that her basedamage on spores is horrible and since you cant buff the DoT with toxin anymore she does absolutely nothing in the early stages of a mission (which coincidently happens to be the time where you can farm focus in ESO). She is easily one of the strongest frames DPS wise, but it doesnt translate into focus farming at all so the lenses I put on her are completely wasted...

[eXotic]

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/958493-do-not-nerf-saryn-because-of-eso/

[SSI_Seraph]

She had a place in both ends of the spectrum (high and low end content) before this. You decided to open this can of worms.

Now She's gonna get nerfed because of the obvious disparities between ESO and simulacrum testing and the rest of the game with the accent put around "normal" content.

Please stop balancing around level 30 content.This is getting ridiculous. No one wants another Ember "rework" case where she still does what she did by swapping p str for efficiency and range on the low end and the only real thing that got nerfed is her CC for higher level content with the augment.

Edited May 20, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[zazo55]

 Its easier to nerf saryn than make other stuff out of EOS better. DE logic. 

[TeaVice]

10 hours ago, m0b1us1 said:

 Make spores more reliable, have better spreading mechanics, and easier to keep alive then I think you have something.

What do I suggest? Getting rid of the second 1 detonation. Why do we need two ways to detonate spores? Let her 4 be the trigger and give us the ability to cast spores multiple times.

The simple solution is to keep the detonation

But pressing 1 spreads spore, and you can keep doing it, and holding 1, detonates spore

 

This would make her far more consistent.

[Purity]

Last time I expect any good from a megathread lol. Out of all the suggestions you decide the onr person who says shes needs a nerf is correct over an actual fix of spores. Done bruh

[Horonelius]

Why don't you just give us the option to hold the skill key down to switch between various Saryn themed spore damage types?

[Leqesai]

 

 

Keep the detonation but have it spread the spores. Then refresh the damage counter.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Leqesai

[Baterial]

To be honest I don't care about saryn's buff at all. People want her to be nerfed now and from what i have seen i agree with them. more damage over ticks does not have sense. I did not run the game to play in about 2 weeks or so and i dont have reason to do so.