End of mission statistics: why are kill related stats so important?

[SSI_Seraph]

Why are kill stats so important in a Coop game like Warframe?

I don't see the point of having them there personally and I think they create more harm than good.

Weirdly enough some people seem to care so deeply about them that it creates a bad experience sometimes even if having Most damage Dealth means absolutely nothing.

There are two cases when it bothers me the most personally:

- User shaming because they got the lowest % damage because they were outdamaged by the others when they have better gear aimed at that purpose.

- People who get annoyed because they can't get top damage % even when they have subpart gear for that purpose compared to another squad member and what follows of calls for nerfs and outcry of "OP" tagging on reddit and the forums. 

Which brings me to my initial question: Why are they so important if they bring nothing to the table and why can't we see them induvidually without the % for example to avoid these situations?

Edited June 10, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[Joutarou]

I mean I personally dont mind the kill related stats, but I would like to see more stats too like:

- Healing Done.
- Damage take on behalf of other players.
- Aggro held time.
- Total time on Crowd control etc.

I think that would somewhat even out the player shaming and stuff?

[Captain]

This is a PVE game. If this was a PVP game people would talk about their K/D/R ratio, but it isn't so people talk about their kills.

[xXDeadsinxX]

What’s so bad having statistics? I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t be in the game, it’s perfectly harmless.

[CxLL]

Full agreement with the thread.
Have seen quite a few arguments over "kill steals", tantrums for not having most kills, as well as those absolutely ruining new players' experiences for the sole reason of showing as "being better" in the results. While statistics are good, perhaps keep them to the profile area. There is absolutely no reason to have this stat in a game that promotes cooperation and from what I see and read, when it's discussed it only results in negative outcomes. 
 

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 30 minutes, xXDeadsinxX a dit :

What’s so bad having statistics? I don’t see any reason why it shouldn’t be in the game, it’s perfectly harmless.

I've seen countless cases of people "reporting" AFKs based on the fact that they dealth little to no damage when someone was hording the kills with a frame made for that.

Also people expecting and wanting to deal top damage when frames that are better built for that are present and jumping on reddit or the forums to cry for nerfs.

I didn't say all statistics are useless. Hell, some relevant ones are not even aknowledged in the game like the support and CC aspect. But kill related ones just create more tension transfered by a toxic PVP mindset in a coop game.

Edited June 10, 2018 by SSI_Seraph

[---RV---Maniac]

10 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

I've seen countless cases of people "reporting" AFKs based on the fact that they dealth little to no damage when someone was hording the kills with a frame made for that.

Also people expecting and wanting to deal top damage when frames that are better built for that are present and jumping on reddit or the forums to cry for nerfs.

Both those reasons are due to people's stupidity more than stats. For reporting DE can check mission stats and see if players were afk or not and for nerfs its up to DE to decide to actually nerf or not.

If you remove stats, you can argue that people seeing players standing in the same place for a while will report them as afk, while they could just be using frost/limbo/octavia/mesa/trin/... and still contributing to the mission. The stats would allow us to see if they are actually doing something or not. Players tend to report players based on lack of movement more than stats.

Also there will always be people asking for nerfs with or without stats. You see equinox clearing out an entire map, you dont need stats to tell you he killed everything.

[Vrekgar]

Yeah. When I get in a frame geared for utility and CC, I don't expect top damage and/or kills. In fact it's quite the opposite.

 

So given the toxic climate towards anything that doesn't deal top tier Kills and/or Damage, why should I ever bring anything else? 

[Gandergear]

This is a game where players will accuse MR25 players of buying their accounts.

Theres always somehing to b**** about

[Schwood]

I haven't seen people hating on low damage teammates in a long time, and I've been in this for 4 years. Sounds like there's some A******s out there. Not everyone wants to Equinox and Nova all day. I'd rather focus on people who show up to sorties and AFK so they can get the reward while everyone else does the work.

I do like the idea of having other stats displayed at the end of the mission though:

• Damage/kills done by pet
• Healing Done
• Revives Performed - maybe a "Field Medic" achievement on a per mission basis
• "Assisted Kills"
• Amount of time enemies are CC'd, along with a "Controller" achievement on a per mission basis

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Schwood said:

I haven't seen people hating on low damage teammates in a long time, and I've been in this for 4 years. Sounds like there's some A******s out there. Not everyone wants to Equinox and Nova all day. I'd rather focus on people who show up to sorties and AFK so they can get the reward while everyone else does the work.

I do like the idea of having other stats displayed at the end of the mission though:

• Damage/kills done by pet
• Healing Done
• Revives Performed - maybe a "Field Medic" achievement on a per mission basis
• "Assisted Kills"
• Amount of time enemies are CC'd, along with a "Controller" achievement on a per mission basis

I believe Revives performed is already there on a per mission basis.

Healing Done and Assists is in your weapon stats/profile stats if you check the profile, but not on the mission stat.

Pets and CC ... that one is not in mission for sure.

Anyway, if someone takes a DPS frame and expects an EV trin or something, they can't blame the Trin for not doing as much damage as them. Not every EV trin uses ridiculous AOE destruction weapons.

[mactrent]

Probably an outlier here, but I use the stats to police myself.  If I'm in a mission with some newer Tenno, the objective is being done, but I'm taking both top damage and most kills, I'll switch up my gameplay.  Go for headshots ("get more headshot kills than overall misses" is a cool one for snipers!), use more "fun" abilities, etc.  There's no kill like overkill, but I don't need to overkill everything, I can let my teammates have a shot or two while still being very active in the mission, if not as efficient as possible.

Gotta say, the times when I'm doing this are usually the most actual fun.

[MechaEmperor7000]

I use it to see who was most effective in a match, which allows me to analyze their build (either by viewing their equipment or asking them directly) and tweak mine to fit. If it wasn't for those same stats, I would have assumed my Volt build was the best for ESO, when in reality whenever a Saryn showed up, they'd be much more efficient than I am at killing stuff fast. It also helps to know when to pull out of an endless mission; it's good to remember which guy is doing the most in a mission so that when you see them pulling out, it's a good sign to also get the heck out of dodge.

[MiMiren]

I have never experienced this supposed problem. I bet its among some minority in minority in minority. Too rare for anyone to bother. Stats are useful.

If DE rewarded players for getting specific stats then we could talk about adding or removing them. This is not the case, however  so...

[Pyra_Firestone]

i personally dont mind them being there. but there a certainly missing stats that should be there, ie

~Health restored
~CC
~Damage Buff given to other players
~assisted kills
and probably another 20 if you tried. also certain stats that are a bit, meh. 
~abilties used
~Pickup Count
~Upgrades Received
~damage received (rage builds just screw up this stat so much) 

Edited June 23, 2018 by Pyra_Firestone

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Pyra_Firestone said:

~damage received (rage builds just screw up this stat so much) 

I like having this in there. In most cases when I'm on a defensive build to see how much aggro I drew and damage I absorbed on behalf of the team. But I also like this stat in general because it shows that I can take fully half the squad's damage and not die, so there's no need to hang back hiding in Snowglobe all the time.

[Daiwulf]

I don't remember seeing someone rage because of the stats, and I think not only they should stay but have more info available like other people said here.

I use them to compare my playstyle with others: if I'm going DPS and someone else has far better damage dealt, I check their loadout to see what they're using so I can try to improve mine (was just using this last week to try to find good Eidolon DPS combos because of the Chroma nerf).

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

The stats are useful to see how well builds and teams work, however as others have mentioned they could display more.

As far as arguments over stats goes, in my experience it's rare and usually comes from nuke/AoE frames. For example earlier this week I had an Ember complain that Supra Vandal and loki's invisibility needed a nerf after I got around 3.5X more kills, more damage and hardly any damage.

[Kaed0x]

i wish if you moused over the % damage dealt and taken it showed actual numbers.anyways, the people who statshame are few and far between, and are usually also people who have only just gotten a good weapon/killframe and think doing 600 AoE damage is impressive since the poor level 50 corpus can't survive it. the best thing to do to a statshamer, though obviously not everone can, is drag them far enough into an endless mission that their killaura/explosive can't handle anymore, and usually a single target weapon will actually do more damage per shot, you just aren't getting it off, so you should be able to outdamage them. alternatively, block them and you'll never hear from them again

Edited June 25, 2018 by Kaed0x

[Methanoid]

On 2018-06-10 at 4:23 PM, cxll said:

Full agreement with the thread.
Have seen quite a few arguments over "kill steals", tantrums for not having most kills, as well as those absolutely ruining new players' experiences for the sole reason of showing as "being better" in the results. While statistics are good, perhaps keep them to the profile area. There is absolutely no reason to have this stat in a game that promotes cooperation and from what I see and read, when it's discussed it only results in negative outcomes. 
 

you cant patch out "gobsh*te morons" even with a change to stats, luckily players can ignore their chat windows or switch from party to clan/whatever and instantly fix the non-issue of other ppls pointless opinions.

[CxLL]

18 hours ago, Methanoid said:

luckily players can ignore their chat windows

With a spoonful of the Community Guidelines which actually prohibit such behaviour.

[Methanoid]

2 hours ago, cxll said:

With a spoonful of the Community Guidelines which actually prohibit such behaviour.

impossible to prevent, so it ends up a wasted quote.

[CxLL]

On 2018-06-28 at 10:06 PM, Methanoid said:

impossible to prevent

This entire thread and comments are actually about the prevention of such issues.

[KIREEK]

Out of well over 30k missions, i only saw 5 or 6 players that actually complained about me killing everything, because no one in their perfect mind will ever complain about fast and well rewarded missions, the efficienty goes up and players get to benefit from that, obviosuly when too many players end up being efficient then nerfs happen, but that's another issue.

Kills reflect in many cases how well you understand the game and how well you are close to the limit of efficiency, this limit is essentially killing enemies as soon as they spawn, there is nothing above that, the best you can do is to get close to that limit and the closer you are the better you end up being, obviously other things need to be considered, are you a hallway hero, do you know the objectives, when someone dies away from a defense terminal will you sacrifice the objective to save your teammate, are you looting aswell, are you reviving, are you doing side objectives (stalker, juggernaut, caches, simaris target), how fast is the mssion being done, are you helping your teammates,....

All of this is important aswell and many are more important than kills, simply because objective comes 1st, kills are often tied to efficiency or the art of doing several things at the same time, killing while reviving, casting an ability while moving, lotting while killing, moving while killing, defending while atacking.

For example a capture, main objective is to capture the target, but you can do that while getting 1 kill and you can do the same while doing 200 kills, one player is rewarded, the other one not really, complains about oxium costs, or certain resources are common, players literally quit warframe because they are unable to gather a single neurode in 10 earth missions, while some players get several of them in under 5 minutes and killing is part of it.

For some players, your profile is a long record of what you do and competent players can easily identify players who despite being MR25, don't do much, if you are trying to improve and you saw a player doing something spectacular, one way to learn if it's effective or not is to read the profile, namely the :

•  kills per mission ratio
•  kills per hour ratio
•  missions per hour ratio

If all 3 stats are like lower than yours, aswell other stats like completion ratio then something is wrong, maybe the player had a fluke of a game (unreliability), maybe he is a 1 trick pony (aka the ponies DE tries to bring back to their normal efficiency level with nerfs)

Obviously you need to see everything, some players may get less kills in a long period of time like eidolon hunting or they might be doing many high level missions that require more effort to get the kills, if you kill 100 enemies in a 2 min capture, then the same capture in a sortie with eximus stronghold will either cause you to get less kills or take longer to complete the mission.

The key is to read "on the long term", because for the most part while we may lean towards certain missions, many do sorties, relics, bounties and so on, so the player with the most kills and with the better overall stats will often be a better player, because he does more than just the objective, he does it fast and does it as close to the limit of efficiency lets him.

This however is not something that will end being important, i do not check 3 ratios and do profile checking on 3 random players that join me, i check the warframes and that's about it, but sometimes with arrogant players or players that say that a specific player is great or a player that had a fluke of a game, profile checking can be a quick and easy way to check if the player can be usefull for the clan, if his opinion on "best" can be considered, you have to be sort of like a real life goku, if someone is better than you and has a good technique, then implement it into your game (this has nothing to do with copying builds, we are not in the tutorial stage here), if future missions between you and him can be a thing, like adding him as a friend, we lean towards efficiency.

But yes, some players despise efficiency. they do not like you and so they will remain on the bottom floor of the efficiency level, these however, are rare.

Don't bother reading my profile or my ratios as they are very high, so i know a thing or 2 regarding effort being translated to results

Edited July 1, 2018 by KIREEK

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎2018‎-‎06‎-‎10 at 10:19 AM, -Virtuoso- said:

I mean I personally dont mind the kill related stats, but I would like to see more stats too like:

- Healing Done.
- Damage take on behalf of other players.
- Aggro held time.
- Total time on Crowd control etc.

I think that would somewhat even out the player shaming and stuff?

I would like to add Assists to that very nice list.