Icebreccer Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I think we need to wait for Update 18 for any change to the Chesa. Either that or DE has already forgotten about it while focusing on the new 'Kubrow pack tactics' like Sheldon mentioned.... :( New shiny stuff keeps coming in while existing stuff never gets fixed. As long as money rolls in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra302 Posted October 5, 2015 Share Posted October 5, 2015 (edited) Updated: 10/6/15 Current thread views: 18,820 Existing Chesa Issues: - items retrieved per trip capped at 3 - pathing - prioritization of items to be retrieved - delay in retrieved items being conveyed to owner - items retrieved often dropped far from owner or during return to owner due to collision with objects or terrain - some retrieved items never conveyed to owner due to Chesa's inability to physically keep up with owner, upon teleport to owner items has lost - kubrow general issue, inability to restrict or prioritize kubrow to certain tasks via mod equipping to specific slots, that is to say the sentinels have attack precept mod, kubrows do not == Historical Timeline == 7/31/2015 Update 17: Echoes of the Sentient Chesa kubrow is first introduced and only picks up one drop at a time. 8/1/2015 This thread is created, among others, expressing frustration at how different the Chesa functionality is from what players wanted and what DE implied would be delivered. I.E. A viable alternative to King Carrier. 8/2/2015 DE Steve is asked about if the Chesa was intended to be comparable to carrier on his Twitter and he states. "that is the goal sorta, needs some improvements" 8/4/2015 DE Steve is asked again about the Chesa's functionality on his Twitter and he states. "We've already admitted/planned to improve... not sure why a half dozen tweets about it is needed." 8/6/2015 Update 17.0.4 Patch Notes: "The Chesa Kubrow’s Retrieve ability will now grab multiple items at once." (Yup, mine picks up the huge amount of 3 items at one time now.) 8/7/2015 Update 17.0.5 No Chesa fix. 8/12/2015 Updates 17.1.0-17.1.4 No Chesa fix. 8/13/2015 Prime Time #83 (time code 50:47) https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/510537-thanks-for-watching-prime-time-83/#entry5700359 DE Sheldon states: "Hey, there is a fix almost ready for Chesa. I was gonna say I tested it today. Chesa will go around and pickup all kinds of stuff before she comes back to you." 8/14/2015 Update 17.1.5 No Chesa fix. 8/19/2015 Update 17.2 No Chesa fix. 8/20/2015 Update 17.2.1 No Chesa fix. 8/21/2015 Update 17.2.2 No Chesa fix. 8/24/2015 Update 17.2.3 No Chesa fix. 8/26/2015 Update 17.2.4 Patch Notes: "Fixed some inconsistencies with Chesa retrieval behaviour on items that are in areas that have already been retrieved. More fixes will be rolled out as we continue to address polish items." 8/27/2015 Update 17.2.5 No Chesa fix. 8/28/2015 Update 17.2.6 No Chesa fix. 8/28/2015 Community Hot Topics https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/519495-august-28th-community-hot-topics/#entry5807302 "Chesa and other Companions We’ve discussed companions in previous Community Hot Topics, but this topic is specific to quality-of-life improvements that could make existing companions more desirable. Kubrows often come under scrutiny due to their required maintenance, and Chesa has garnered criticism because of the limitations of their Retrieve ability. Chesa’s utility is ultimately a reflection of Carrier’s vacuum, so do you think that homogenization of companion abilities is the best way to increase their value, or do you think there are ways to make each companion unique and desirable? If so, how? Is increasing Chesa’s Retrieve ability sufficient? What would you add or change to make other companions more useful? How often do you change your companions currently? Is there a change that would encourage you to diversify? Post your thoughts and ideas in this thread!" 9/2/2015 Update 17.3 No Chesa fix. 9/4/2015 Update 17.3.1 No Chesa fix. 9/4/2015 Devstream #59 (time code ~ 8:47) https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/522963-thanks-for-watching-devstream-59/#entry5854142 DE Rebecca attempted to obtain clarification from DE Sheldon on the Carrier Vacuum debate but only in brief passing mentioned the word Chesa. When the discussion transitioned to Kubrows the Chesa topic was avoided and instead DE Sheldon discussed "Pack Tactics", which appeared to be a distraction to properly responding to the core issue and player comments that have been posted regarding the Chesa. 9/9/2015 Update 17.4.0 No Chesa fix. 9/10/2015 Update 17.4.1 No Chesa fix. 9/11/2015 Update 17.4.2 No Chesa fix. 9/16/2015 Update 17.4.3 No Chesa fix. 9/17/2015 Update 17.4.4 No Chesa fix. 9/23/2015 Update 17.4.5 No Chesa fix. 10/1/2015 Updates 17.5 & 17.5.1 No Chesa fix. 10/2/2015 Updates 17.5.2, 17.5.3 & 17.5.4 No Chesa fix. 10/5/2015 Update 17.5.5 No Chesa fix. 10/6/2015 Update 17.6 No Chesa fix. Edited October 6, 2015 by cobra302 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebreccer Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Nice new Kubrow cosmetics and Prime stuff, but not a single improvement in the general Kubrow AI? Awesome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Sandman Posted October 6, 2015 Share Posted October 6, 2015 Nice new Kubrow cosmetics and Prime stuff, but not a single improvement in the general Kubrow AI? Awesome... Hate to sound salty but it seems as though sales > total customer satisfaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaltharos Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 So that's why nobody wants the chesa :v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Megan Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monybags33 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 (edited) Nice new Kubrow cosmetics and Prime stuff, but not a single improvement in the general Kubrow AI? Awesome... Things need always updating and adding onto so while somethings might need fixing life still will move on and so will this game, that dose not mean they have forgotten about it in the least. Otherwise this thread is really helpful for the developers in knowing what they need to fix. First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Proof enough that things are not forgotten. Edited October 7, 2015 by Monybags33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oceano4 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Thank you Megan! If Kurbow can be made to be on par with Sentinals, I will be much more likely to buy this PA (Still sad about Gene Maskign kit though... :( ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolake Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Please remind the AI guys that all the kubrows have problems, they often stop doing anything or just attack instead of using their abilities. Please implement commands like you already have for specters/operatives and make precepts actually affect dogs behavior (like sentinels) so we could remove the attack precept or give it low priority. Make Sunika non-useless. Single target attack adds nothing and she's too slow and dumb to keep up with new capture targets. Sunika badly needs a new function and fix to capture behaviour. I can do some videos if you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kolos1001 Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 I really feel like Kubrows are cosmetics that will do something occasionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Averath Posted October 7, 2015 Share Posted October 7, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. It would probably be easier on the coders and the playerbase if Vacuum/Retrieval was simply removed as a mechanic, and Warframe's had their loot range increased to compensate. It'd require new mechanics for Chesa and Carrier, but the coders would probably have an easier time getting those to work, rather than having to worry about every edge case that this system utilizes. It'd also have the side-effect of giving the playerbase a great quality of life improvement, especially for newbies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasarian Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 If Kurbow can be made to be on par with Sentinals, I will be much more likely to buy this PA (Still sad about Gene Maskign kit though... :( ) Hate to say it but from what I hear if it weren't for pathing and general dumbness of Kubrovs they would outclass the sentinels by far. For now they outclass in every possible way when it comes to survivability and "power" of skills (excluding Chesa which was a let down) when compared to sentinels. Only Range, precepts (and Carrier being very usefull in Loot based game to the big part of playerbase) and no need for any kind of maintenance keep them somewhat competetive. Personally I hope that with Chesa fix we will get also a fix/upgrade for kubrows and with that Devs making a look at Sentinels to adjust them as well to make both parties a viable option (and by sentinels being a more viable option I mean anything besides Carrier Prime that won't get shot down by a stray bullet and that does it's job, somewhat) instead of just Carrier vs everything else... PS. We did get Diriga which was a step in the right direction but then few power players showed the DE it's true potential and they had to adjust the new sentinel... with a sledgehammer..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratego89 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. I personally would like to see Chesa kubrows able to retrieve needed items in a very large radius. The main point of this is to allow the chesa to fill a roll that carrier doesn't already (and better). Carrier could be the one that can give decent CC close range and suck everything you need up instantly as long as it's near you, Chesa could also retrieve but be one that causes chaos elsewhere on the battlefield and retrieving items for players who like to stay back away from the combat and snipe/play squishier frames. I really feel doing this would give Chesa a good place in the game and add a niche that is currently missing among the companions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknow99 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Seriously, bring commands for companions too... Before even being added ingame I was asking : "is it possible to give them orders like...You know...A soldier would do with his trained animal?..." You can try to make an extremely reliable AI that does exactly what we'd want it to do anytime(it's hard) or you could just make the AI decent & let the players choose when they want it to do a very specific task... And what I'm talking about isn't just for kubrows : hostages,specters,Clem or even syndicate allies could benefit from this! Edited October 8, 2015 by unknow99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebreccer Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Well, that makes me feel a lot better. I will be eagerly waiting for future updates. Perhaps we should start collecting video material on existing issues with Kubrows on this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InFlames Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Theres this other massive thread make by "_Rue_" that has a lot of pages and a lot of opinions on Kubrows on general. Would be great having Megan/Rebecca or anyone else at DE take a look at it!https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/527525-what-is-your-reason-for-not-using-kubrows/Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Bowjangelz Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well, that makes me feel a lot better. I will be eagerly waiting for future updates. Perhaps we should start collecting video material on existing issues with Kubrows on this thread? Also eagerly awaiting improvements to Chesa and all kubrows' AI. Example issues I see fairly often with general AI/etc: *getting stuck under staircases *getting stuck running in place when there are terrain interferences *suicide since when they fall through map holes they bleed out under the map instead of being teleported back in bounds the way our warframes do *being unable to stop them from attacking when we want them to be close by *suiciding into the column of fire when doing raids and carrying the bomb in part 3, he jumps down into the fire after I have left that area -_- Much of this could be fixed if we had a "come here" command instead of having to run across the map to try to trigger their teleport since circumstances don't always allow that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RainbowShi Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Maybe see if some drop priority can be put in the Chesa too. They have a huge radius, and go for rare mods first, then regular mods, then rare materials, etc. IE they're smarter then carrier about what their owner wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faulcun Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 I havent even been able to grow one yet. The airlock has claimed so many....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinetos Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) I think kubrow, but generally all followers, need 5 commands. Could be added between gear wheel and emotes. Or instead of the context action toggling hold and follow, could show this menu. Or both. Context menu being for individual, but gear menu overriding all individuals so you don't have to command kubrow, clem, specters separately if you don't want. 3 are formation commands, 1 is active at a time. Advance: current behavior, but prioritize waypointed enemies, allow them to range out a little farther and when idle don't have to be as close to you constantly. Form Up: if you are more than 5 meters from me, drop everything and get within 5 meters, teleport if necessary. Hold Position: basically Form Up, then stay here even if I move. Then 2 behavior commands, toggled non exclusive. Hold Fire: don't use weapons or basic attacks, attack precepts. (Includes Hunt, Ferocity, Vaporize) Conserve Energy: don't use any special abilities or precepts, other than attack precepts or guardian/sanctuary. Edited October 8, 2015 by KinetosImpetus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra302 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 (edited) First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. Megan, Thank you for taking the time to respond to the concerns and questions raised in this thread. The official response you have provided allows us to now understand what DE's position is on this topic. I am very happy to hear that the Retrieval mechanic and other issues with the Kubrow are on the list of items to be fixed. I think many players would like to use Kubrows as a change to sentinels and for their interesting characteristics but are discouraged by the problems discussed in this thread. If DE can get them functioning reliably and effectively I believe many players will be encouraged and the variety of use in game will be increased. I hope that "on the radar" is a lot closer than "down the street" and "around the corner". If the AI coding for the Kubrow is what will be also use for the upcoming Kavats then perhaps the effort to introduce Kavats can also serve to fix the Kubrow rather than Kubrows being placed on the back burner for the sake of something new. If there are to use the same coding then perhaps we will see some Kubrow fixes in Update 18? Edited October 8, 2015 by cobra302 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)wonderwoman814 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 First let me thank you for continuing to report and log issues related to the Chesa Kubrow. This thread has shined light on many behavior issues that our team can take a look at. For clarity, the Retrieval mechanic does not have an item limit. It does however, depend on what is currently in the player's radius when the ability is active. If a player is constantly moving this may skew what Chesa will retrieve, making it look like it's not picking up items it should. Our team has the Retrieval function on the radar for review, and are looking at screenshots/videos of other lingering issues with Kubrow pathing as a whole. T_T THANK YOU!!!! FINALLY THIS IS WHY I THROW MONEY AT YOU PEOPLE YOU ACTUALLY LISTEN!!!!!! :D you just put a big pep in my step for the day lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobra302 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 Well, that makes me feel a lot better. I will be eagerly waiting for future updates. Perhaps we should start collecting video material on existing issues with Kubrows on this thread? Your idea to post video or screenshots here relating to Kubrow problems to be addressed sounds like a good idea. Anything we can provide will hopefully help DE better resolve the concerns voiced regarding the Kubrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)wonderwoman814 Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 It would probably be easier on the coders and the playerbase if Vacuum/Retrieval was simply removed as a mechanic, and Warframe's had their loot range increased to compensate. It'd require new mechanics for Chesa and Carrier, but the coders would probably have an easier time getting those to work, rather than having to worry about every edge case that this system utilizes. It'd also have the side-effect of giving the playerbase a great quality of life improvement, especially for newbies. oh dude....you better hope carrier users dont see that....they will eat you alive lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasarian Posted October 8, 2015 Share Posted October 8, 2015 oh dude....you better hope carrier users dont see that....they will eat you alive lol. Gimmeh 5-7 meters radius without requiring FoV and I'll throw carrier into the abyss, maybe I'd start using Djinn or Helios... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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