This is why you stop nerfing things.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

You nerf something, and people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit. 

Sit back, have a long, detailed, in house discussion as to /why/ people are exploiting your game instead of just playing it. And look for ways to correct the issues that are causing people to LOOK for exploits rather just enjoying the game. For instance, I got a riven that requires me to kill four dargyn pilots before they hit the ground. This is such a joyless task, that I resulted to using the birb exploit to suck them up off their feet with tornadoes. (Yes, that's considered an exploitation of game physics.)

Look at the joyless parts of your game, figure out how to make them rewarding, and people will stop exploiting the game. Nerf after nerf after nerf has never been a valid solution, because no matter how many times you hit that nerf button, this will just keep happening. The solution to exploits is to make people not feel the need to look for them. As long as people feel the need to look for something they can exploit, people are going to find what they are looking for, and you lack the ability to prevent that. There's no two ways about it, you are not capable of finding and fixing all exploits, you are capable of finding out what's causing people to exploit, and doing something about that.

[Spartan336]

Who would win. This post...

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

You nerf something, and people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit. 

Sit back, have a long, detailed, in house discussion as to /why/ people are exploiting your game instead of just playing it. And look for ways to correct the issues that are causing people to LOOK for exploits rather just enjoying the game. For instance, I got a riven that requires me to kill four dargyn pilots before they hit the ground. This is such a joyless task, that I resulted to using the birb exploit to suck them up off their feet with tornadoes. (Yes, that's considered an exploitation of game physics.)

Look at the joyless parts of your game, figure out how to make them rewarding, and people will stop exploiting the game. Nerf after nerf after nerf has never been a valid solution, because no matter how many times you hit that nerf button, this will just keep happening. The solution to exploits is to make people not feel the need to look for them. As long as people feel the need to look for something they can exploit, people are going to find what they are looking for, and you lack the ability to prevent that. There's no two ways about it, you are not capable of finding and fixing all exploits, you are capable of finding out what's causing people to exploit, and doing something about that.

Or DE and an age old saying. 

[EinheriarJudith]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

~snip~

so its ok for people to find joyless parts of the game and proceed to exploit? hilarious. nerfs happen as a part of balancing the game. people were saying "omg DE i thought you said no more WoF lvl afk" when talking about revenant, then DE makes good on their promise and all of a sudden DE just destroyed a frame? wow people are fickle. it also showed how reliant on powers people are when they should be using their full arsenal.

dont like nerfs? you're not gonna be playing alot of games.

[VioletGoblin]

The set up for this Nuke Trin requires the coordination of 4 people. The number of people who will be able to pull this off will be so small that I don't think that DE will even both with it.

[xethier]

Your point is valid, however, there will always be a certain sub-set of players that go looking for exploits as their primary goal in life.

[Fishyflakes]

Nerf all of this.

Thanks DE.

[StinkyPygmy]

When you don't understand the bigger picture so you throw the same old "all nerfs are bad" lineout and see what sticks.

[Jiminez_Burial]

4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

so its ok for people to find joyless parts of the game and proceed to exploit? hilarious. nerfs happen as a part of balancing the game. people were saying "omg DE i thought you said no more WoF lvl afk" when talking about revenant, then DE makes good on their promise and all of a sudden DE just destroyed a frame? wow people are fickle. it also showed how reliant on powers people are when they should be using their full arsenal.

dont like nerfs? you're not gonna be playing alot of games.

The people complaining about something are often not the same people who complain after the change is made.  People aren't fickle, the community is conflicted.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

2 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

so its ok for people to find joyless parts of the game and proceed to exploit? hilarious. nerfs happen as a part of balancing the game. people were saying "omg DE i thought you said no more WoF lvl afk" when talking about revenant, then DE makes good on their promise and all of a sudden DE just destroyed a frame? wow people are fickle. it also showed how reliant on powers people are when they should be using their full arsenal.

dont like nerfs? you're not gonna be playing alot of games.

I didn't say rather or not it was okay, I said, that as long as you have badly designed parts of your game, you're going to have people looking to exploit. 

I have seen many games choose to nerf things rather than resolve underlying issues. Take Destiny 2 for instance. They looked at all the nerfing and rebalancing they had to do in destiny 1. I say "had". What I mean is chose to do because a vocal minority of people who never stop complaining wanted them to. So instead, they resolved the issue by making Destiny 2. A game where, to make sure nothing was op, everything was underpowered by design. And it killed the game. Literally, killed it. As of now it's being literally given away for free just to try and drive more players to play the game.

Nerfing might be an inevitable decision that some developers will choose, poorly, to make, that doesn't mean it's always the right decision. If something is so overpowered, it's legitimately broken, then that's one thing. But taking Destiny as an example, instead of observing that people were mostly relying on weapons that kill with one shot, shotguns, fusion rifles, snipers, RPGs, swords, they failed to realize that what 90% of the players want, is to have a faster paced game, so they should have decreased time to kill with other weapons, instead, they nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed, and killed their game. This has happened to other games. DE by and large has decided to just let many of their weapons and frames be overpowered, so it hasn't been a problem for them yet.

Yet.

[StinkyPygmy]

3 minutes ago, Starfreak911 said:

The people complaining about something are often not the same people who complain after the change is made.  People aren't fickle, the community is conflicted.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I have 100% often seen people in this community flip flop around like fish out of the water on a regular basis.

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

4 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

When you don't understand the bigger picture so you throw the same old "all nerfs are bad" lineout and see what sticks.

Excuse me a moment while I laugh at you. Not with you, specifically at you. 

[MechaEmperor7000]

I wholly agree. General human inclination is when given a task, you will find the most efficent way of doing it. Doubly so if the task is something you need to grind out multiple times.

The main problem me and my friends have observed is twofold:

1.) Missions with interesting mechanics do not have proportional rewards.

2.) Missions with proportional rewards do not have interesting mechanics.

Basically Infinite missions are the most efficient way to farm for resources, relics and other such desirable items, while missions like Spy, Capture (with one sole exception right now due to the unvaulting) Rescue and so forth giving rather disappointing rewards vs the effort put in (in both total time spent and skill required). The AABC rotation system is also means that, due to the most desirable items being in the C rotation, everything before then is just considered another roadblock.

For infinite missions, a large portion of them boils down to "kill x number of enemies fast", meaning nuke builds, Spin 2 Win and other such "Cheese" methods are basically the only way to get through them efficiently. Moreso since there's not much else you need to do most of the time. I have actually physically fell asleep at the computer doing them, and still somehow managed to not die while doing so. I have also seen many people on Bounties collectively cringe whenever a "secure area" or "Defend Armored Carrier" thing comes up, since it basically translates to "stand still for 2.5 minutes while pressing 4".

The other reason I observed is that despite ostensibly being "bite sized", due to the AABC Rotation system, infinite missions are actually some of the longest missions in the game. I have averaged about 1m30s for capture missions, 2mins for Exterminate and just shy of 2min for rescues. This is even more notable with the Ukko, the void capture mission that actually rewards a relic right now (normally something only available in later waves of an endless mission) and it just becomes both unfeasable and unfun to farm for relics in infinite missions. The long time investment it takes in addition to said time investment being unfun due to the above leads me to find any method that could speed it up (which usually results in nuke builds on defense missions).

Solution wise, I have some ideas:

1.) Get rid of the AABC rotation system. Make it so that all rotations have the same drop, but rarer items get increasingly higher chances as you go through waves. This would give people incentives to actually stay in longer infinite missions, as starting over would "reset" their chances. Properly balanced, anything up to 12 rounds could still have the same relative drop rate to time investment as what they are right now.

2.) Give desirable rewards to other missions. This does not mean putting relics on the reward tables of every mission. Some can be resources or blueprints for certain weapons. If it is to be resources or credits, make them substantial. This is a problem with some missions that award endo; you often get way more endo from the enemy drops than you do with the end of mission reward.

3.) Introduce more fun mission types other than (to quote one immortal british-australian-american): "Go to the place and shoot some lads". One idea me and my friends had was something like Rush, but with warframes instead. Orokin Challenge Rooms and Lua Challenge rooms are actually incredibly fun. Maroo's weekly ayatan run is actually quite fun to do (if it wasn't only once a week).

That's just my thoughts on it.

[TrickshotMcGee]

16 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

Yes, that's considered an exploitation of game physics.

Eh, not really. Limbo can do something similar with his abilities. If it wasn't intended, chances are they would have changed it.

 

Though, let me pose one question: Is it easier to nerf a handful of things, or rebalance the entire game any time they want to introduce something new?

I feel like that's a fairly simple answer, but many people don't see the logic behind it. People find "exploits" because they want to find the path of least resistance. Not because the game is hard, or because there's no reasonable way to do something. But because people want everything quickly and easily. Even if the devs have a plan for the way it should be played. 

But when you (Not you specifically. Referring to anyone who uses this stupid, nonsensical logic) say "stop nerfing things", that implies that you feel everything else should be buffed to be in contention with the thing that was nerfed. And in doing so, you feel that enemies ALSO need to be buffed to compensate for our power. People already complain about horrific enemy armor and damage scaling. If DE only added stronger stuff without bringing other things down, how do think enemies are going to start scaling? They're gonna get worse. That cycle is going to repeat. We get stronger, enemies get tougher, then we ask for more power to deal, and then they get buffed again. That's how it works. That's how it has always worked, and will continue to work. In basically every single game in existence that's updated at any regular intervals. 

However, if the devs nerf the handful of things that are out of place in their view of balance (that's the only one that counts, btw. Doesn't mater if you like it or not, devs have the final say) then everything else gets to stay the way it is. Not only is that simpler and faster, it also doesn't have any effect on the rest of the game. When things are buffed to compete with the meta, then the meta becomes the only option. Slightly nerfing the meta can have the opposite effect, in that it can prompt the devs to make things simpler, and open everything up to non-meta and non-"exploit" solutions. 

In short - Nerfing selectively is good for the balance of the game and general player experience. Buffing everything, for players and enemies alike, is both a waste of time and only serves to make everything more difficult for everyone. So no, they shouldn't stop nerfing things. I think sometimes they forget that the enemies have several design flaws as well, but that's another discussion entirely. 

[tripletriple]

Uninstalling until the nerf is reverted.

Edit just showing my overreaction too lmao.

Edited August 31, 2018 by tripletriple

[(PSN)abbacephas]

3 minutes ago, tripletriple said:

Uninstalling until the nerf is reverted.

[tripletriple]

Just now, (PS4)abbacephas said:

You are right. But gotta try.

[ZodiacShinryu]

30 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

Look at the joyless parts of your game, figure out how to make them rewarding, and people will stop exploiting the game. Nerf after nerf after nerf has never been a valid solution, because no matter how many times you hit that nerf button, this will just keep happening. The solution to exploits is to make people not feel the need to look for them.

Impossible. I dare you to find the most popular game ever and you'll find someone exploiting somewhere. The fact of the matter is unless someone can deliver an experience that is never the same (not even possible in real life) people grow bored and complacent and as such find ways to make things easier, often exploits. It is a natural human cycle.

7 minutes ago, Starfreak911 said:

People aren't fickle, the community is conflicted.

I mean its both. But of course its conflicted. You bring a whole bunch of individuals wanting their own thing to an environment where everyone has to play by the same rules. If we could all agree on things as humans the world wouldn't be the cesspool that it is.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

they failed to realize that what 90% of the players want, is to have a faster paced game

I can almost guarantee you that "faster paced" is something that people were NOT looking for. Honestly I think most people would probably say Vault of Glass was the best raid they did (I might add there were exploits all over the place). They never really got back up there. The leviathan just doesn't scratch the itch the same either and it was the most similar (well Oryx was close too). My biggest problem is that they made it more a shooter... like why? People can get a shooter anywhere, you need to dig into what makes you stand apart.

[tripletriple]

While its true that over nerfing almost killed destiny 2, it is extremely lively right now and is back on the right track. Pretty sure it has more or close to the same amount of players warframe does. 

But take notes de. Over nerfing kills games.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

This isn't gonna get nerfed. It requires a 3 to 4 squad combo of very specific warframes. If anything there should be more power combos like this in the game.

Normally DE nerfs things that are like "set it up and forget it as it kills things for you or you stand in one place as you rinse and repeat." At least that's how I see it. I would say the exception was the Iron Vault augment's interaction with one of the Plague Exodias or Glaive Prime's airborne throw but they are kind of right to argue that those attacks are NOT slam attacks.

[Threa]

1 hour ago, EinheriarJudith said:

so its ok for people to find joyless parts of the game and proceed to exploit? hilarious. nerfs happen as a part of balancing the game. people were saying "omg DE i thought you said no more WoF lvl afk" when talking about revenant, then DE makes good on their promise and all of a sudden DE just destroyed a frame? wow people are fickle. it also showed how reliant on powers people are when they should be using their full arsenal.

dont like nerfs? you're not gonna be playing alot of games.

*facepalm* 

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

You nerf something, and people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit.

So by that same reasoning, if I find a cockroach in my house, I shouldn't kill it because there will be other cockroaches in my house in the future.  Your reasoning is stupid. If an exploit needs a nerf and you don't nerf it, players will still continue hunting for exploits, and then you have two exploits to deal with.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

Sit back, have a long, detailed, in house discussion as to /why/ people are exploiting your game instead of just playing it. And look for ways to correct the issues that are causing people to LOOK for exploits rather just enjoying the game.

Players will naturally search for the most efficient way to play a game. And when a developer sees that there's a method that was unintended or makes the game too easy, they adjust it so the experience is more in line with their intentions.

I know that players will try to justify exploits by citing the grind of this game, but the simple matter of fact is that people discover and use exploits for two reasons: we can, and we are lazy. That's it. If DE reduced the grind significantly, it would do very little, if anything, to discourage players from using zero-effort gameplay and general cheese. Let's say we have a mission where the rare drop has a 5% chance of appearing, so players like to run WoF Ember to make their many runs less effort-requiring. If the drop chance of that rare reward were increased to 50%, players would still run the same cheesy builds to get to the reward as fast as possible. There might be some change in the approaches of a few players, but trust, cheese builds would still be prevalent and common.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

I got a riven that requires me to kill four dargyn pilots before they hit the ground. This is such a joyless task, that I resulted to using the birb exploit to suck them up off their feet with tornadoes. (Yes, that's considered an exploitation of game physics.)

That's... actually quite clever. But tell me, who apart from you is claiming that this strategy is a exploit and not just another clever use of our powers? The enemies are still airborne and you're using the air elemental frame to do it. I'd call that thematic and clever. And while this may not have been the strict intention of DE when they designed that Riven challenge (I infer that it's asking players to make 2 accurate shots in quick succession), there's a difference between using an ability to make a one-mod sidequest easier, and pressing a couple of buttons to trivialize entire missions. Your personal example sounds like reasonable gameplay to me. The video you linked, where the squad of robot ninjas wins the game by Rad proccing and Switch Teleporting a Link Trin so she can spin in place and nuke everything despite not hitting or seeing any enemies, does not.

[peterc3]

This should be automatic by now, I have lost faith in the forums.

[Tiltskillet]

12 hours ago, (PS4)Echo_X said:

You nerf something, and people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit, you nerf that, people find another exploit. 

Sit back, have a long, detailed, in house discussion as to /why/ people are exploiting your game instead of just playing it. And look for ways to correct the issues that are causing people to LOOK for exploits rather just enjoying the game. For instance, I got a riven that requires me to kill four dargyn pilots before they hit the ground. This is such a joyless task, that I resulted to using the birb exploit to suck them up off their feet with tornadoes. (Yes, that's considered an exploitation of game physics.)

Look at the joyless parts of your game, figure out how to make them rewarding, and people will stop exploiting the game. Nerf after nerf after nerf has never been a valid solution, because no matter how many times you hit that nerf button, this will just keep happening. The solution to exploits is to make people not feel the need to look for them. As long as people feel the need to look for something they can exploit, people are going to find what they are looking for, and you lack the ability to prevent that. There's no two ways about it, you are not capable of finding and fixing all exploits, you are capable of finding out what's causing people to exploit, and doing something about that.

It's true.  Instead of nerfing so much, DE could just address the problem by fundamentally changing human nature. 😛

I mean, sarcasm aside, there's validity in what you're saying.   I just think nerfing is a tool in the toolbox, and an extremely valuable one.  Because we'll never stop exploiting advantages, and yet most of us crave some semblance of balance.  (Or at least we do when somebody else is on the OP side of things.)

Now if you were to say that game designers sometimes nerf when it's not needed, and very often nerf in the wrong way, or nerf the wrong things, or make sweeping nerfs when precise ones are called for, I'd whole-heartedly agree with you. 

Of course, it's not an easy job.   If I got within a mile of a balance job at DE or anywhere, I think I'd kill the game pretty much instantly.

[rune_me]

I like nerfs, though. The more the merrier.

[-Temp0-]

13 часов назад, VioletGoblin сказал:

The set up for this Nuke Trin requires the coordination of 4 people. The number of people who will be able to pull this off will be so small that I don't think that DE will even both with it.

Yep. Because most are actually allergic to any kind of teamwork, not only in warframe. So most don't even know about things that are possible to do in this game because close groups keep shut about it.