My concern once Orbs can be fought

[IntheCoconut]

I'm less concerned about avoiding meta and common-place strategies, and moreso just want a boss fight that is fun and engaging. A meta exists because the game is grindy. My first few fights with the Teralyst were really fun, sure, but once you figure out the mechanics and realize that you need to do the fight 30 times to farm for Arcanes and Quills, it becomes more about getting the fight done and over with as fast as you can. So yeah, I'm fine building the meta amp, investing in meta weapons, and meta warframes, if it means that I can complete the fight in 5 minutes instead of 10. 

As others have said though, if you don't want to be running the most efficient and time-saving builds because you don't enjoy it, than don't. No one is forcing you to play the game a certain way. Will it take you a few minutes longer? Probably. But you need to play what you enjoy. It is a game, so take some time figuring out what works for you and spend less time worrying about what everyone else is doing.

Edited November 13, 2018 by IntheCoconut

[Misgenesis]

18 hours ago, Beas7ie said:

I just want to fight a giant boss that I can hit with my sword and don't have to worry about shooting at small glowing weak spots, or constantly going into operator mode to take down some otherwise invincible shield.

 

Just let me hit it with my sword.  Just get me closer so I can hit them with sword.

This is a wholesome post. I agree.

[WhimsicalPacifist]

20 hours ago, Eisdschungel said:

The Problem is we cant have a hard fight AND no meta. The harder a boss is, the more important it is to use the most efficient way to tackle the fight and the more relevant the Meta will be. The eidolons being time gated to night only make this Problem worse.

I read damage gating as fix a few times. But what will that change save from making slow firing hard hitting weapons less usable (Lanka is not op, outside eidolons its hardly seen at all)?  Just take a look at plague star and the hemocyte.  Is there Really a difference between oneshotting a synovia with a sniper + Chroma and burning through a Head with Titania in about 2 seconds?

Technically there are plenty of other options other than Titania for Plague Star.  Far more than Chroma + Riven + Void Strike which is nigh-mandatory to one-shot limbs.  There's Loki for Switch Teleport, Nova for portal'ing the drone, Rhino, friggin Amesha, Chroma etc.  With Plague Star there's many options for DPS and auxilary roles that can potentially speed up the run (even with a 524 Blitz Titania, there's still multiple heads).  With Eidolon there's only one slot to one-shot a limb, and Twiddle Dee 1/2/3 who are on drones/buff duties.

But specifically regarding Titania vs Chroma, there's some significant details you neglected to mention.

Titania has to sacrifice a ton of survivability to burn through each head in 2 seconds.  That's like a maxed out STR build with a perfectly built Dex Pixia which wouldn't be optimal for other content.  Even then she can be outdamaged during the day by a Mirage with a Pyrana riven.  This really isn't a problem with Plague Star, but why don't you see her more often in Eidolon/Tridolon?  She takes unavoidable AoE damage and with 65 base armor it is not pretty.

The other problem with Titania in a boss fight...Operator.  Recently the Dev's have loved forcing operator in mechanics (Umbra quest, Eidolons).  Chroma synergizes with Void Strike + Vex + Castanas/explosive glaive perfectly to one-shot limbs.  Titania really doesn't synergize with anything Operator-mode; far to the contrary it's a massive opportunity cost for any Duration-base Blitz build.  All stacks of Blitz lost each time exiting Razorwing to go on foot to go into Operator.  Then from Operator, to foot-mode, to Razorwing and stacking 4 stacks of Blitz up again for whatever burn phase there is.  It is really clunky.  Given the dev's proclivity towards the annoying-kid-mode, I find it unlikely Titania will be making any large appearance vs the Orbs.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

The only way I can think of to prevent a boss from getting stomped by our ridiculously OP gear is to make us use different gear entirely. Make it only able to be hurt by some specific thing we have to raid a base for. Have one player man some Corpus-sentient turret while the others try to distract it with either large chunks of damage(that only serve to make it target them instead) or explosives to knock it off its feet, anything really.

As long as the direction they take the fight in allows me to do it solo(I mean, I could take down a Teralyst solo without the pesky time limit) I'll be fine.

[ZesiMuerte]

On 2018-11-13 at 4:48 AM, Ceryk said:

I'd say this was more 50/50. DE has admitted that they gave us way too much power early on with weapons and part of it is certainly on the players because of that. With the Eidolons, I can believe that DE did not anticipate it. But now they know it's an issue, so they should be taking steps to correct their mistakes. Short of Damage 3.0 actually getting done and the game being rebalanced, these bosses really need damage gating or something like that. We know they have been working on damage gating off and on for awhile for Warframes to prevent one shot kills or shield breaks, so it's not like it would be a new idea for them.

May I say something as a new player? I am just reading through some of the posts here.

The thing is, why do people see the need to either have some damage gating strategy to make the fights more interesting?

Wouldn't a boss fight be more interesting if some sort of coordinations are required among all the squad members? I haven't experience all the content yet but from what I have seen on youtube, it seems that the meta in this game is to build damage output and go in gun and AOE blazing. Correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps DE should build a boss fight where each individual squad member needs to know what he/she is doing. Perhaps 1 member needs station or deal with a Point of Interest in order to bring the shield of the boss down, while another do CC and boss. Or maybe, at every intervals, every member needs to take an exact actions within a certain time frame (e.g destroy 3 things that is powering the boss within x mins or the boss will wipe the party) Something like that would make the dynamics of boss fighting in a squad much more interesting.

[CoolDudeMcCool]

4 minutes ago, ZesiMuerte said:

May I say something as a new player? I am just reading through some of the posts here.

The thing is, why do people see the need to either have some damage gating strategy to make the fights more interesting?

Wouldn't a boss fight be more interesting if some sort of coordinations are required among all the squad members? I haven't experience all the content yet but from what I have seen on youtube, it seems that the meta in this game is to build damage output and go in gun and AOE blazing. Correct me if I am wrong.

Perhaps DE should build a boss fight where each individual squad member needs to know what he/she is doing. Perhaps 1 member needs station or deal with a Point of Interest in order to bring the shield of the boss down, while another do CC and boss. Or maybe, at every intervals, every member needs to take an exact actions within a certain time frame (e.g destroy 3 things that is powering the boss within x mins or the boss will wipe the party) Something like that would make the dynamics of boss fighting in a squad much more interesting.

The only thing I'd want to ensure is the ability to do it solo, and reasonably. Even if it's kind of a slog, solo should be an option.

[420-chan]

If team performance and efficiency matters at all in the fight, then it will be optimized and there will be a meta. If you can do something faster and get more rewards, people are going to want to do it faster. The only way to stop a firm meta from developing is to make it so it doesn't really matter how well you perform; the rewards per time spent has to be roughly equal. That would probably require something dumb like timegating. It's just not possible to create content in Warframe where every frame can excel equally, since all the frames do such different things. Any given role is going to have one frame that does it better than anyone else. 

[deothor]

On 2018-11-12 at 7:22 PM, Erytroxylin said:

You dont have to do Eidolons as a meta build if you don't want to.

Good luck getting invited into tridolon hunt while playing a frame that doesn't really help much, like Hydroid or Zaphyr. Not saying those 2 frames suck, but noone sane will let you go with those if they could bring chroma or volt. You could potentially host your own run with mishmash of weird frames, but in the end it will end up making the run alot more difficult, than it should be.

 

Even when ou do use the right build META frame people are iffy about letting random join unless they have meh-ton of caps done already. So far had ran tridolon only twice. Not because I didn't want to, but because noone wanted to run it with me untill I'd share all details regarding what i'm going to use for the hunt (that being said, altho I am newbie with tridolons, I'm MR 21 with all important frames and mods and even few decent weapons).

 

The whole "go play via bounty with 4 randoms" is a joke. You either end up with leechers, or clueless guys, or team setup that can't even deal ANY damage or protect lures.

 

Eidolons have 4 major issues because of which "just hunting them" is if not inconvinience, then simply unfun experience:

1. Almost all weapons, beyond few snipers (and maybe titania), are full-meh mode against them. Sure your super endgame lvl9999 weapon with best arcanes can DPS him, but not everyone has it. Thus players want DPS frames, such as chroma/volt in their team

2. Damage between eidolons is too wide or too random. You die for no reason or by attack you cannot defend. your lures cane asily blow up on the second eidolon within seconds. Thus players want trinity

3. the magnetic procs screw players just as much so again, what would you go if not something that can ignore them, like Harrow (or Oberon)

4. lets say you got whole team for tridolon. A perfect speedhunt very skilled team. Now you rush and hunt tridolons even as much as 4-6 per night. God damn would that be tiresome and unfun. Doing it once? No tridolon PROs would want you for just 1 run. Eitehr full cycle or try your luck with bounty randoms.

 

By no means am I defending old trials, but Eidolons do have quite alot of bad design in them.

Edited November 14, 2018 by deothor

[lennieplop60]

What I'm worried about is how "samey" all warframe's bosses feel. They're all normally invincible, until they reveal a weak spot, you shoot the weak spot, wait for it to return, rinse and repeat. This makes them a bit boring snd unstatisfying. If DE wants orbs to be interesting instead of a boss you just want to rush, they'll have to try something new.

Edited November 14, 2018 by lennieplop60

[MartianGHunter]

Personally after reading this thread I am very confused.

What is wrong with having certain setups be good for certain parts of the game e.g. snipers are practically annoying to use throughout the whole game they finally have content that is usefully to them and justify having several zoom levels yet it seems some people complain I can't use my melee weapon when you basically can use it well and effectively throughout this whole game.

Also Eidolons are the first proper world bosses there are like 10 more planets to go we will get more world bosses with different mechanics what people should do is suggest what world boss battles they would like added with new open worlds that will probably be receiving so DE has a large pool of idea variations to add to the game.

And more on topic, META will always exist you don't have to use it but its there and why must those of us who enjoy being efficient be punished to suit everyone's taste e.g. I don't like ESO meta so I rarely use it but I love Eidolon meta and use it because its fun to me. Play what you enjoy and suggest "better" for you world bosses that will fit your meta <- which will probably be what you enjoy using.

[deothor]

28 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

snipers are practically annoying to use throughout the whole game they finally have content that is usefully to them and justify having several zoom levels

Yeah and they are used in almost melee-range, only for eidolon cheese and nothing else. What's more no other guns can be used vs eidolon from the get-go.

30 minutes ago, MartianGHunter said:

Eidolons are the first proper world bosses there are like 10 more planets to go we will get more world bosses with different mechanics

Sure they have unique emchanic (not counting kuva guardians) but did DE had to repeat the same killing mechanic on each boss 5 times? That's just... meh.

[Erytroxylin]

1 hour ago, deothor said:

The whole "go play via bounty with 4 randoms" is a joke. You either end up with leechers, or clueless guys, or team setup that can't even deal ANY damage or protect lures.

Hasn't been my experience. My random bounty groups have been successful 9 out of 10 times. Half the time its been possible to do 2x. And a couple times even gotten pub groups capable of 3x.

[SenorClipClop]

On 2018-11-13 at 2:20 AM, Ceryk said:

Adding more endgame content is much needed, but I am very worried it's going to turn into yet another boring Meta Mess

Unfortunately, it's pretty implausible to make endgame content without a Meta Mess happening to some extent. With our character loadouts as customizable as they are, with those customizations making the huge differences they do to gameplay, the necessity for difficulty to make high-level content interesting, a tight mission-trivializing meta is kind of unavoidable. Either DE heavily limits our customization for the gamemode, severely limits the impact of our customizations in the mode, challenges every kind of difficulty at once with a single challenge, or accepts that people will just pick Loki/Atterax or Chroma/Lanka and turn the mode boring with how trivially easy it becomes.

While this issue can't be dodged entirely, it can be mitigated in several ways. A good way to look at how to do this is by studying what makes Eidolon hunting so fiercely same-y. In Eidolon hunts, the following things are either unusable or of little consequence:

• Melee. All of melee (except maaaybe thrown melee) has zero impact on Eidolon fights. It's difficult to reach their weakspots with melee weapons -- possible, but so much extra hassle that you might as well not bother and just grab a gun. Even the minion Vomvalysts are best left to ranged play, floating around as they do. Future fights like this would do really well to include melee, and at least have it do something. A good example would be to let players whack the legs of an Orb to open up a weak point or temporarily disable something about the enemy.
• Stealth. This also is pretty inconsequential in Eidolon fights. Whether or not the Eidolon is aware of you specifically, it'll still be hitting you with its smears of AoE damage. Like melee, Stealth doesn't need to be the thing in new bossfights, but having it effect the fights in some way might be nice. (This is just an example; in actuality I'd rather see stealth incorporated into non-boss missions since Warframe's invisibility isn't actually stealth as we see it other games, since using it makes to virtually impossible to detect and you don't need to play stealthily).
• A very small chunk of weapons are effective. Status effects have zero effect on Eidolons, and all Eidolons are weak to Radiation above anything else. A better variety of strengths and weaknesses among boss monsters, as well as letting Status do something at least, expands the list of weapons players become inclined to use.

[Raso719]

For as long as gamers are playing online games together there will always, ALWAYS be a group of those players working to find the most efficient way to cheese through an objective and spreading the methodology to the masses. 

So long as we don't get to a culture where people are denied the ability to group up because they don't have the requisite load out or MR or whatever I don't much mind a boring meta in a largely co-op game. Once the culture of the game gets to the point that elitists refuse to group with newer players who lack the end game equipment thus preventing them from acquiring the end game equipment then we have a problem. The old, "how do you get experience if no one is hiring unless you have experience" paradox, but for gamers.

[(PSN)XxDarkyanxX]

Le 13/11/2018 à 00:54, Erytroxylin a dit :

I mean, you're right that a lot of mechanics are removed from play. At the same time, that's what it takes to make bosses non-trivial because our abilities in game are just that strong. I honestly think the Eidolon fights went way beyond any of the other boss combat encounters, in existence before them, when it comes to making an interesting fight. I think that perspective on where DE came from is important to the overall discussion. I do think DE has plenty of room to improve yet, and I have high hopes for the Spidos on Orb Vallis. But, lets not lose sight of the fact that DE is getting better at this over time. Since the spiders aren't in yet, it means they are still likely working on them. What kind of ideas do you have that they could do for those fights to do better?

I don't deny that ; DE has a lot of room to improve and they've gone above and beyond with that idea.
I don't dislike the idea of preventing ability use on the boss, that's actually quite necessary in order to balance things out.

However I'd like to see a fighting mechanic that include our everyday mission/grind into the lot, not just "Hit the boss, boss dies"
For example, mix in an "Elimination" objective where you have to kill 20-30 enemies and completing that task would affect the boss or the player in a way that's beneficial.
Something along the lines of : "The nearby patrol units are bringing in Shield amplifiers to supply Spidos, take them out and we might be able to turn this fight around"

You could actively choose to ignore the objective, but this would result in the boss getting more power and energy for stronger and more durable hits for a few minutes,
or
You could delegate a teammate to the task and make the boss more vulnerable to shield damage for a minute, it goes both way.
___
I'd also very much like to see Status being implemented back into the fight one way or another.
Being able to corrode a single "Limb" or weakpoint with concentrated fire without affecting all the other parts,
Stacking Viral damage at 0.1% the rate and having to control your Status duration effect so that it may be more efficient over time.

Being able to stack the 4 basics elemental a number of times to trigger a specific event,
Short-circuit for electric,
Meltdown for fire
Shutdown for ice
Purge for poison.

Point being, there's a lot of things that can be put into a single boss to make it a different experience a hundred times over depending on player choices.
The Vombalyst RNG, the straight immunities, the lack of proper side enemies to fight and the lack of control on the Lure objective depending on your warframe choice is all mainly detrimental to the eidolon fight in my opinion and things that need to be fixed in the Spider fight.

[Erytroxylin]

I'd say go take those ideas and submit them to DE in the feedback forum. That's the best chance for them to be seen. Who knows? Maybe DE could use them, if not directly maybe it would inspire them with their own unique ideas after seeing yours. @ me there cause I enjoy reading ideas other people come up with too. It gets me thinking about my own projects.

@(PS4)XxDarkyanxX

[Fishyflakes]

As long as you don't have to kill an orb in 50 minutes, everything will be fine.

That is the problem with Eidolons and metas.

It's the time limit.

[Beas7ie]

On 2018-11-12 at 9:28 PM, Marvelous_A said:

-Umbra the ultimate sentient slayer

-Has absolutely no way to harm the eidolons coz melee don't do sh1t on them

Pretty much,

 

that and a few other bosses but at least he wasn't specifically designed to kill them.

[LazyBlissIV]

As stated numerous times above, you cant simply stop things from becoming meta. Call it the nature of the beast.

[Sormaran]

So many people talking about bossfights should be epic and meaningful. Blah blah blah, as if community wants to minmax everything just because. Nope, it is simply about loot. And no its not about how you enjoi the game, if you like getting all the best gear or you dont, no. Its about amount and quality of loot locked behind content, simple as that.

Lock a ton of arcanes behind raids and then tridolons and what do you expect, that people going to do them for fun and epicness of the battle? Please.

So i just going to call this now, the more really helpfull loot going to be locked behind orbs - the more people will minmax them. Spoiler: going to be minmaxed af.

[SaltyKelong]

Imagine recruit channel:

"Looking for 3 other non-meta folks to capture Hydrolyst. Use what you like, we might fail but we'll be able to have fun!"

 

Realize how awful that sounds?

[Batwing]

I just wanna be a badass and recreate one of the best scenes in cinema history.