Can We Stop Catering to New Players?

[FlusteredFerret]

18 hours ago, rune_me said:

Restrictions made by the game developers are fine. In fact, that's what I'm asking for. Make the game more challenging so I won't have to make up my own rules to do it. 

Removing a mod, or not formaing my weapon is not however restrictions made by the game developers. That's restrictions made by me. 

I am asking for different content in the game. Adding a new game mode that says I can not use, say, maxed out gear, is indeed new content. Removing the mods from my weapons however, is not. The content in that situation, remains exactly the same as it has always been.

The problem that DE face with this (as I'm sure you'll appreciate) is that "challenging" is a highly variable parameter, depending on how long you've spent playing the game and your general skill at videogames.

DE need to keep as much content as possible available to the majority of the player base...not just the skilled vets with all the gear to cheese through everything. In any case, this is a lore / story-driven game, rather than one that is primarily focused on increasing difficulty (though that is definitely present in the star chart).

The problem (which has been discussed many times over) is that this game is built around the "power trip" concept. When you give players the ability to acquire such levels of power, its tough to build in a corresponding amount of challenge in the game, without alienating newer / less capable players. Especially in a game that is story-driven, rather than relying (solely) on the traditional mechanic of increasing levels of difficulty and end-of-level bosses (though again, these are present in the game).

 

Therefore any "endgame" or "challenging" content needs to be in a separate game mode. Now DE have made several attempts, that I'm aware of, over the years, to provide just such a mode and challenge...but these have all been generally rejected as unsatisfactory (at least by what I've read on here), for various reasons. What have been the flaws in these?

 

Maybe all the vets should get together and draft ideas for their ideal "endgame" game mode? To be honest, given how this game is designed, I can't see beyond some kind of Ultra Sanctuary Onslaught in the case of PvE. I also still think a PvP version of The Index could be good for players that want that mode instead.

I highly doubt DE will ever include special main game content for vets, so wishing for that I believe is utterly futile, for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

The problem that DE face with this (as I'm sure you'll appreciate) is that "challenging" is a highly variable parameter, depending on how long you've spent playing the game and your general skill at videogames.

I agree with that. I doubt DE even can make it challenging to vets (of which I am not, though) at this point. I think they would have to completely rework all abilities and frames to accomplish that.

3 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

DE need to keep as much content as possible available to the majority of the player base...not just the skilled vets with all the gear to cheese through everything. In any case, this is a lore / story-driven game, rather than one that is primarily focused on increasing difficulty (though that is definitely present in the star chart).

I don't agree with that. I have never paid any attention to the lore and have no idea who is who or what is going on, and what little I've gleamed seems rather poorly written nonsense. I think this is a loot driven game. I have no desire for lore or story in Warframe.

5 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

I highly doubt DE will ever include special main game content for vets

I agree completely. It will never happen. Which is of course okay. No game will be enjoyable forever, and no one should expect any game to have unlimited content to keep you entertained and challenged. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb FlusteredFerret:

In any case, this is a lore / story-driven game, rather than one that is primarily focused on increasing difficulty (though that is definitely present in the star chart).

That is a joke, right? 😀

From my experience, i played maybe 2-3 hours worth of mentionable story-quests in the game or story related stuff.

And many hundreds of hours where i just do stuff without caring for lore or getting told anything related to lore.

 

Spoiler

 

I know everyone enjoys different things, and there are people that liked several quests, but for me only the war within and the 2nd dream have been interesting and told a good story in an interesting way while having an impact on the gameplay itself. All the other quests are barely memorable imo and just serve the purpose of giving you something, besides that they dont matter at all for what you do in the game.

Yes, there is some lore hidden somewhere in the game in the codex for example which i guess most people ignore, and some lore is told by Steve in Streams, which even more people dont even notice i guess. Thats not what i would call a "story-driven" game ^^

 

 

vor 43 Minuten schrieb FlusteredFerret:

Therefore any "endgame" or "challenging" content needs to be in a separate game mode. Now DE have made several attempts, that I'm aware of, over the years, to provide just such a mode and challenge...but these have all been generally rejected as unsatisfactory (at least by what I've read on here), for various reasons. What have been the flaws in these?

 

Maybe all the vets should get together and draft ideas for their ideal "endgame" game mode?

I dont think it needs much to please most of the people that are looking for something (although there will be always some people who say everything that is below the level of a 5 hour Mot-survival run is not worth their time). One thing is the enemy lvl. For whatever reason, DE fears to really put high lvl enemies into the game, and from what i have seen most people always wonder why we either have to start at a low lvl or why the scaling gets slowed down heavily. In the end its the same, you have to play for a long time to see high lvl enemies.

 

So, Arbitrations could be "fixed" by either raising the starting level or increasing the scaling speed. (i like arbitrations already btw)

ESO on the other hand has the problem with efficiency which basically erases the possibilty to push yourself, because at some point it decides for you that you cant go on.

So i think, making efficiency drain a lot less or replacing it with something else like a killcounter: 500 normal enemies + 50 eximus + (1 boss?) would solve the problem.

 

The basic idea of those gamemodes is not bad, and with just a little tweaking they could be really awesome.

 

 

 

I dont know why they hesitate to put higher lvl enemies in the game, i really dont get it. I mean, we can spawn 155 enemies in the simularum, but in the actual game we have to play for more than an hour to see those enemies. Its simply a joke that all Youtubers always think they have to do the "lvl 155 test" for weapons while not one of them actually fights them in the actual game at any time (besides lifeofrio, but let us not talk about him ^^). This also promotes the thinking that your weapons need to be able to fight those enemies, while in reality you never see them.

And i think this has also an impact on new players. When i was new, i saw all those guys testing stuff against those strong enemies, and i thought i have to prepare myself to be able to fight those enemies someday too. But then you are ready and simply wonder "where are those enemies now outside of the simularum?"

Edited November 26, 2018 by DreisterDino

[vvhorus]

A handful of people complaining that their 5-forma one-button nuke warframes and their 6-forma rivened weapons are decimating everything in Fortuna. Just another day in the forums...

[Vox_Preliator]

19 hours ago, rune_me said:

Restrictions made by the game developers are fine. In fact, that's what I'm asking for. Make the game more challenging so I won't have to make up my own rules to do it. 

Removing a mod, or not formaing my weapon is not however restrictions made by the game developers. That's restrictions made by me. 

I am asking for different content in the game. Adding a new game mode that says I can not use, say, maxed out gear, is indeed new content. Removing the mods from my weapons however, is not. The content in that situation, remains exactly the same as it has always been.

That is... completely arbitrary, though.

So if they tomorrow put out a completely regular Survival mission that disables +Damage% mods, it's new content and worth doing, but taking off your own right now and getting the exact same experience isn't?

[rune_me]

12 minutes ago, Vox_Preliator said:

That is... completely arbitrary, though.

So if they tomorrow put out a completely regular Survival mission that disables +Damage% mods, it's new content and worth doing, but taking off your own right now and getting the exact same experience isn't?

It’s not the exact same thing, though. One would add a new game mode to the game, the other would not.

It’s like saying if you want a new open world, just play Fortuna but pretend it’s a dessert planet.

[Sasha-]

Can we stop complaining?

Maybe?

[(PSN)nekokujo]

1 hour ago, vvhorus said:

A handful of people complaining that their 5-forma one-button nuke warframes and their 6-forma rivened weapons are decimating everything in Fortuna. Just another day in the forums...

Perhaps it hasn’t been communicated clearly enough, but gearing down or using “non-meta” gear is not a solution to the lack of endgame. Players generally want to fully mod and make their load out as strong as possible. Those same players also want fun gameplay that requires that insane level of gear and preparation or else they’d get absolutely destroyed by the challenge put before them. It doesn’t have to be every game mode. Many other MMO and MMO-lite type games have these challenges, and it’s exciting to watch world first clears of raids or takedowns of epic world bosses (even if you’re not participating in the race yourself).

Edited November 26, 2018 by (PS4)nekokujo

[vvhorus]

37 minutes ago, (PS4)nekokujo said:

Perhaps it hasn’t been communicated clearly enough, but gearing down or using “non-meta” gear is not a solution to the lack of endgame. Players generally want to fully mod and make their load out as strong as possible. Those same players also want fun gameplay that requires that insane level of gear and preparation or else they’d get absolutely destroyed by the challenge put before them. It doesn’t have to be every game mode. Many other MMO and MMO-lite type games have these challenges, and it’s exciting to watch world first clears of raids or takedowns of epic world bosses (even if you’re not participating in the race yourself).

Fun is subjective. I very much enjoy spinning my Guandao and downing 4-5 enemies in one spin, while others frown upon that. Subjective.

DE just released a major update, with the rest of it coming soon. Until they add that seemingly elusive "proper end game content" to the game, we'll just have to wait and see. In the mean time, I suggest we (and by "we" I mean complainers) start using those unused loadout slots and make low stat builds. How does that saying go: "if the mountain will not come to you..."?

Edited November 26, 2018 by vvhorus

[FlusteredFerret]

1 hour ago, RyzenMeow said:

Can we stop complaining?

Maybe?

 

There will always be some people who can find something to complain about.

 

It just makes me laugh how there seem to be 2 competing factions in the player base. One wants ever more powerful frames and weapons, complaining if each new one isn't more powerful than anything that came before it. The other bemoans the lack of challenge, because everything is too easy now they have all the gear & frames to make it so.

I suspect there is a hidden third faction that overlaps 1 and 2...they want ever more powerful gear AND challenging content... 

 

Like I said...you'll never please everyone...just as well DE seem to realise this.

 

[Lady_Xenomorph]

I am pleased with how the things going, my only wish a xenomorph frame.

[BeeWhyOhBee]

heh, it will never happen. you dont pay, newer players pay the game (because they didnt know how to earn plat in-game at first)

its a sad realization that 'the challenge part' will never happen. because low MR players want to experience that 'challenging part' too, and since they dont have the gears, the skills and the weapons for it -- hence the nerfs. ESO babymode exists for a reason, not that ESO itself is a challenge, even arbitrations. By this time you must've realized that the game is for new-to-mid-level players only. Once you reached that 'endgame that you call it', its nothing. Or rather it doesnt exist. So i decide to just have fun with what the game can offer for now, im having fun hunting wild animals (i dont really focus on what rewards it can give anyway)

Other games have their 'endgame raids' where you need to actually have a coordinated team = complete with support, dps, tank etc, with certain mechanics that if you fail to meet or perform the said mechanics -- you fail the dungeon raid. It doesnt have to be overpowered with maiming strikes and 1-shotting everything, the bosses can be a 1-2mil HP bullet sponge for all i care, as long as the mechanics are not repetitive, and the fight itself is actually challenging.
TERA's Kelsaik's Nest (the old 5,10,20-player one) was one of the best raids i experienced playing, ever. Again, noting the bullet-spongy boss, the mechanics of that mode is a challenge in itself. It relies on player survivability, coordination on when to use that 'stun mechanic' on the boss, when to change tanks, monitoring your status on when to switch -- topping it off with a strong boss to boot. Now i dont know how it works now in current (the mode is probably dead now because its old), but that is one of my best experiences in raids.  

Now i know WF is a totally different game but at least there should be something like it, challenge/mechanics. Something that gives us a reason why we are forma'ing and powering up our frames and weapons besides the default 200-hour survival camping sessions and calling it 'endgame'

[(PSN)nekokujo]

42 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

Fun is subjective. I very much enjoy spinning my Guandao and downing 4-5 enemies in one spin, while others frown upon that. Subjective.

DE just released a major update, with the rest of it coming soon. Until they add that seemingly elusive "proper end game content" to the game, we'll just have to wait and see. In the mean time, I suggest we (and by "we" I mean complainers) start using those unused loadout slots and make low stat builds. How does that saying go: "if the mountain will not come to you..."?

I absolutely believe the majority of Warframe gameplay should be more like Dynasty Warriors and less like Dark Souls. However, even if the “proper end game content” is only able to be completed by < 1% of the playerbase, it still can add a whole lot of excitement and hype to a game. The most recent good example that comes to mind is the addition of FFXIV’s ultimate level raid (another game where casual content is way more numerous than ‘hardcore’ content).

[SneakyErvin]

If only DE could come up with a level-sync system, that could potentially solve alot of things.

Lots of games have done it successfully before in ways that lets you still feel more powerful in BiS gear. However implementing such a thing in WF will be hard because levels mean very little in the end and the mods make the most difference.

In a regular setting they tend to set a level limit for zones. Say it is limited to level 30 out of 50 for a specific zone, any level 50 entering this zone will have his character level/stats downgraded to that of a level 30, same with his gear, he would however keep the quality of his gear, the skills available for being level 50 and so on. This makes his progress still mean something compared to an actual level 30 being there aswell. This just isnt possible in WF since there are no actual levels that have a connection to stats, except a few on the frame.

They could rework their system so levels on frames and weapons are more impactful on stats, both when it comes the stats on frames and weapons aswell as the damage output on skills. Each single level would add stats to skills, frames and weapons, this would let them scale down players to the level of the content while also letting them keep their capacity to avoid modding nightmares.

This would also remove the need to rework mods since they scale based on the downscaled damage of abilities and weapons already. A fully ranked serration would simply be the equivalent of epic or legendary gear in other level-synced games.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

5 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

That is... completely arbitrary, though.

So if they tomorrow put out a completely regular Survival mission that disables +Damage% mods, it's new content and worth doing, but taking off your own right now and getting the exact same experience isn't?

Yup. That's what I said too. Doesn't really make much sense. 

[vvhorus]

3 hours ago, (PS4)nekokujo said:

I absolutely believe the majority of Warframe gameplay should be more like Dynasty Warriors and less like Dark Souls. However, even if the “proper end game content” is only able to be completed by < 1% of the playerbase, it still can add a whole lot of excitement and hype to a game. The most recent good example that comes to mind is the addition of FFXIV’s ultimate level raid (another game where casual content is way more numerous than ‘hardcore’ content).

See, there's an issue right there. Warframe should not strive to "be more like" anything else. That is only your wish or desire based on your experience with other games you play. The moment DE starts copying other games to add content, Warframe automatically becomes a clone of those. Players will pick up on that and DE will get a ton of flak. The people at DE have proven to be super talented and creative geniuses. Let them figure it out. Stop comparing Warframe (speaking in general here) to other titles and enjoy it for what it is, or if someone doesn't enjoy it, he/she can use their prerogative to play other games...

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

1 minute ago, vvhorus said:

See, there's an issue right there. Warframe should not strive to "be more like" anything else. That is only your wish or desire based on your experience with other games you play. The moment DE starts copying other games to add content, Warframe automatically becomes a clone of those. Players will pick up on that and DE will get a ton of flak. The people at DE have proven to be super talented and creative geniuses. Let them figure it out. Stop comparing Warframe (speaking in general here) to other titles and enjoy it for what it is, or if someone doesn't enjoy it, he/she can use their prerogative to play other games...

i kinda agree with this as its what got me into warframe int he 1st place, it was different and unique onto itself 

[(PSN)nekokujo]

10 minutes ago, vvhorus said:

See, there's an issue right there. Warframe should not strive to "be more like" anything else. That is only your wish or desire based on your experience with other games you play. The moment DE starts copying other games to add content, Warframe automatically becomes a clone of those. Players will pick up on that and DE will get a ton of flak. The people at DE have proven to be super talented and creative geniuses. Let them figure it out. Stop comparing Warframe (speaking in general here) to other titles and enjoy it for what it is, or if someone doesn't enjoy it, he/she can use their prerogative to play other games...

You said that you like spinning through multiple enemies with a guandao. This is what called to mind the Dynasty Warriors reference, not some need for me to make Warframe into a clone of Dynasty Warriors or something.

That being said, I don’t think it’s a sin to look at other successful franchises and see what might or might not work within the confines of the Warframe universe. Nor do I think it is a sin for players to suggest the developer looks at a certain idea and consider implementing it in the game. 

[(PSN)nekokujo]

4 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

 

I suspect there is a hidden third faction that overlaps 1 and 2...they want ever more powerful gear AND challenging content... 

 

Why not? That sounds good to me: new, challenging content and at least equally powerful gear that still feels unique and can compete with ‘meta.’

[Vox_Preliator]

1 hour ago, vvhorus said:

See, there's an issue right there. Warframe should not strive to "be more like" anything else. That is only your wish or desire based on your experience with other games you play. The moment DE starts copying other games to add content, Warframe automatically becomes a clone of those. Players will pick up on that and DE will get a ton of flak. The people at DE have proven to be super talented and creative geniuses. Let them figure it out. Stop comparing Warframe (speaking in general here) to other titles and enjoy it for what it is, or if someone doesn't enjoy it, he/she can use their prerogative to play other games...

As a case study:  Lunaro,  AKA Warframe trying to be Rocket League.  At least they seemed to have learned their lesson somewhat, and Frame Fighter was never anything more than a side project and was never really meant to be taken seriously.

In the end, Warframe tends to be at its best when it's Warframing.  I think there are aspects of -Warriors games that would be good to add, but I also think there are aspects of Souls-like games that would be good to add, as well as like a dozen others, and trying to be any of those just results in a lesser product.

23 minutes ago, (PS4)nekokujo said:

Why not? That sounds good to me: new, challenging content and at least equally powerful gear that still feels unique and can compete with ‘meta.’

And then what?

Oh, that's easy, harder content and more powerful gear.

And then what?

Oh, that's easy, harder content and more powerful gear

etc. etc. etc.

Constant escalation isn't healthy, especially when there's already a huge discrepancy between a player's ability to take and deal damage even in sub-100 levels.  Higher numbers wouldn't accomplish anything permanent, and since it would likely result in "Just never give anything the chance to shoot at you" gameplay pretty quickly it wouldn't actually result in a more enjoyable game.

[FlusteredFerret]

41 minutes ago, (PS4)nekokujo said:

Why not? That sounds good to me: new, challenging content and at least equally powerful gear that still feels unique and can compete with ‘meta.’

Because you very quickly hit...

 

...and there's nowhere to go after that. Everything just becomes pointless when it becomes a contest to see who can 1-shot each other first.

 

And Warframe is not that kind of game (well, it is, sort of, since the devs wanted some level of power trip) but first and foremost it is a story-based game.

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

9 hours ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Maybe all the vets should get together and draft ideas for their ideal "endgame" game mode? To be honest, given how this game is designed, I can't see beyond some kind of Ultra Sanctuary Onslaught in the case of PvE.

That's basically how we got what we have now iirc.

Whatever players can call "endgame" will be obsoleted in 6 months...Same as it is in any other game.

Fortuna isn't even fully rolled out and people are already complaining about lack of content, lack of endgame, etc.

That's ignoring the fact that if you ask 10 players to describe "endgame" you will get different answers due to how subjective the term is.

Endgame tends to be a unicorn for gamers imo.

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

11 hours ago, Vox_Preliator said:

That is... completely arbitrary, though.

So if they tomorrow put out a completely regular Survival mission that disables +Damage% mods, it's new content and worth doing, but taking off your own right now and getting the exact same experience isn't?

Logic?  In this thread?

[CaelThunderwing]

 We veterans cant really expect to enjoy the game forever, Playerbases Age much like we do day to day. we pass on teh baton to the new generation (we pass it to the new group of players that find and explore n enjoy the game just as in real life as we grow up have kids, teach in our jobs educate etc the growing new generation of people to come after us. ) and thus its going to be natural as since DE makes thier operating Money from mostly plat sales Prime access and Prime Vault sales from the new and "Low-young" (about a year into Warframe) Players and ocassionally us veterans who have grown numb to the grindfest that will say "F*k it and shell out for Prime access or buy a lil extra plat for any new frame that comes out. 

the crying for those going "Ehh vets need to just Hush/STFU and stop whining./ its on venus for FFS. " we kinda do have a point about the bases and while i do advocate some of the difficulty be restored i dont want it harder than part way, Yes its on Venus  Yes its the second planet New players will be going thru (i have a profile on teh switch just for some WF Fun when i'm on the go or stuck at the doc's office for a few hours or waiting a long arse time for uber at walmart.. so im going thru the "New player Pains all over again) but New players below MR6 shouldnt be going After bases!~ being usually most that early on have thier starter frame or one other frame, thier starter weapon or 2 new ones usally the FREESWORD code or Once awake given one or when Fortuna hits consoles, Plus/XBL/SwitchOnline pack bonus weapons they will be woefully under prepared both equipment and mods.

if you watch Region chat for a few good hot mins.and you catch a new player asking questions along the lines "Im dying frequently in venus. what can i do to survive or do more damage?" which will be sad most higher rank players berate them right out well before someone willing to help them out. Something should be in place to indicate they're entering a higher level area intended for slightly more experienced players, ones who's learned about damage types or modding.  who'd build atleast a few weapons (aka leave Fortuna as an Objective to encounter by the 3rd planet's Junction.)

[DreisterDino]

I dont feel like opening another topic, but out of curiosity, what do you guys think about the "new" elite enemies in O.V.? Did it bring back the engaging combat?

 

I think what made prehotfix so engaging was the fact that all enemies, so yes, even "trashmobs" could harm you.

I played a bunch of bounties now, and those elite-untis are a good addition i guess, but it still doesnt feel like pre-hotfix.

 

And it cant obviously, because like it is now, everyone still has to do the same missions with the same enemies,

so it must be balanced around those new players aswell and they cant just make it like it was before.

 

I guess in the end, we need to have seperate difficulty modes to chose from if we want to fully satisfy both types of players,

because whenever you try to please both in the same spot with the same conditions, there will be always complains from both sides.