Conglomerated Wukong rework

[DeMonkey]

3 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

If that doesn't work, I've got a full carry-box of Magic: The Gathering from the Mirari cycle and earlier, a few of them are worth a fair bit as I recall.

What say you, @[DE]Pablo?

Also could you take a look at Zephyr? I know she got a once-over earlier in the year, but it made her average out at 'not terrible'... At least a Tailwind fix that makes it less painful to use anywhere that's not the Plains or Vallis, maybe make that Hover into an active thing where you don't have to squat on the ground, not moving, until you fart out some lifting gas?

Hmmm, a gofundme to convince Pablo to rework frames he doesn't want to?

Does gofundme accept pokemon cards as a form of currency?

I am tempted, I must say.

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

Hmmm, a gofundme to convince Pablo to rework frames he doesn't want to?

I would suggest a Patreon, where we could then have tiers of support per month, where we could then workshop and vote on new ideas he has while he's working, but not on whether he does them, just what kind of stats we'd like to see on them.

His ideas go through, but we get to suggest all kinds of cool interactions to see what he can make ^^

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

From my childhood, I was an avid watcher and viewer of the original Mandarin version of Saiyuki and the one thing that really drives it home for me is Wukong’s ability to create clones of himself. Imho, the prospect to create melee specters of himself would be ideal. Maybe give his specters highly aggressive Prosecutor AI that goes and melee enemies with Primal Fury. That’s the dream for me.

However, I’m unsure what or how to proceed with this idea. Maybe replace Cloudwalker or a set a conditional passive that could generate a duration based specter or two. Have it synergize with Wukong’s own Primal Fury build that can be shared to his specters.

Also, having Chinaframe Wukong’s Primal Fury range would be ideal to have, especially with the global build restricting melee behind LoS and having no melee punchthrough. I can most definitely see this happen.

Always a pleasure to read your Wukong threads @DeMonkey. A friend and myself are avid fans of playing Wukong from time to time, and it’ll be great to see him improve. Let’s hope for the best.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

Not to keen on Cloud Walker being replaced...you catch on fire...boom right into cloud walker and status is over..plus it's a great get out of jail free card when you get mobbed let alone dragging energy and health over to other teammates while flying around can be a life saver...not everyone stands around and just dies to be reborn again with defy...I use Cloudwalker a lot...

I would just like it to pass through laser traps though using it...one more goto spy vault frame would be fun to add to Loki, Limbo, and Ivara...

[DeMonkey]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

However, I’m unsure what or how to proceed with this idea. Maybe replace Cloudwalker or a set a conditional passive that could generate a duration based specter or two. Have it synergize with Wukong’s own Primal Fury build that can be shared to his specters.

If it works, I'd be down 

6 hours ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Also, having Chinaframe Wukong’s Primal Fury range would be ideal to have, especially with the global build restricting melee behind LoS and having no melee punchthrough. I can most definitely see this happen.

Agreed, however I fully expect DE to be resolutely against that, unfortunately.

3 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Not to keen on Cloud Walker being replaced...

Would you mind reading the actual replacement suggestion, specifically the first transformation.

[Wolfchild07]

Could we get immunity to knockdowns during Primal Fury combos?

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Wolfchild07 said:

Could we get immunity to knockdowns during Primal Fury combos?

Would be nice, however due to that being a melee mechanic called "momentum" which currently appears to be... non-functional, it'd be best to wait till Melee 3.0 to roll around imo. It might be a thing.

[1thurts]

I am commenting here only to make this thread longer so that maybe DE will pay some attention and rework wukong. 

I agree with you that his abilities are ALL bad. 1&3 are unusable, 2 is a waste of energy for most of the time, 4 could be fun but has nothing special than a regular shortrange melee.

I like your ideas of the reworks for his stats, passive, 1 and 4. The rework for his 2 is very similar to oberon's 3 with augment, but idc as long as wukong gets something to survive. And Idc about his 3 bcs I'll only use his 2&4 and maybe occasionally 1.

[DeMonkey]

2 hours ago, 1thurts said:

The rework for his 2 is very similar to oberon's 3 with augment, but idc as long as wukong gets something to survive.

That was the intention, still allow Wukong to survive without the ability being both grossly overpowered, and yet at the same time borderline useless. The taunting, ofc, giving it some use.

2 hours ago, 1thurts said:

And Idc about his 3 bcs I'll only use his 2&4 and maybe occasionally 1.

That's fair, I honestly don't think the 3 matters all that much if he can tank, have an effective weapon and get around the map quickly. So I just went for something I thought would be fun. Give his kit some novelty value and have a bit of a laugh.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I love this rework. 

I like the idea of Defy having purpose beyond... not dying. Giving him aggro also suits his cheekiness.

And of course i love that you've given his melee combos unique benefits and features, as i'm sure I've mentioned to you in the past that I'd appreciate being that it's Exalted! ❤️

[DeMonkey]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I like the idea of Defy having purpose beyond... not dying. Giving him aggro also suits his cheekiness

Right now when it comes to not dying, I'll always value a frame like Inaros or Nidus higher than Wukong right now, especially with so much ability nullification nowadays. 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

And of course i love that you've given his melee combos unique benefits and features, as i'm sure I've mentioned to you in the past that I'd appreciate being that it's Exalted!

It's got to. Excal has sexy Waves and auto block, Valkyr gets invulnerability and life steal. 

It's only fair that the staff does more than just "grow to a still subpar length".

[(XBOX)psyoniko]

I really got into defy Wukong, strolling around in Mot, busting heads. It doesn't make sense to me why he's slow, but there is a fun plodding rhythm to primal fury that syncs nicely with the damage>rage>defy loop in a pitched engagement. His high shield makes defy a high-maintenance ability - I can't set it and forget it because if I stop taking damage for a while and run too low on energy to recast in time, and then suddenly pain is incoming again, that's the opposite of immortality. I don't have any issues with that.

One main complaint seems to be that he doesn't contribute to the squad with any kind of meaningful buff or cc ability. I mostly agree, although he does prove useful when everyone else is bleeding out.

Cloud walker could be faster. It could also continue to stun enemies in flight for a more useful aoe cc, sort of like Hydroid's tidal surge.

At higher levels, Iron jab is only useful as a defensive measure - if that. I think it's too risky to use in a desperate battle - but then when else am I supposed to use it? It needs more output or it could be my choice to replace altogether.

I want primal fury staff to have more damage and range. It should rival any exalted weapon.

As a replacement ability for iron jab I thought about how monkey in the legend generated mini wukongs to fight by plucking his hair. Like atlas golems, only smaller, faster, weaker/shorter duration and more of them.

 

[DeMonkey]

25 minutes ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

His high shield makes defy a high-maintenance ability - I can't set it and forget it because if I stop taking damage for a while and run too low on energy to recast in time, and then suddenly pain is incoming again, that's the opposite of immortality. I don't have any issues with that.

That's why we all run the Decaying Dragon Key though, right?

Plus, with proper modding its immortality with literally no risk.

Couple of Arcane Graces for health whilst invulnerable, Primed Flow and Rage for energy and Rolling Guard to allow for risk free recasting. 

Plus, as mentioned, immortality isn't even necessary. An Umbral build can survive Mot.

27 minutes ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

One main complaint seems to be that he doesn't contribute to the squad

I don't honestly care about that personally, just that each ability is useful and fun.

[(XBOX)psyoniko]

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That's why we all run the Decaying Dragon Key though, right? 

By we you mean you, although it's a good idea that I didn't see in any wukong defy posts and I'm just not that smart. I thought I was agreeing with you that his base shields are too high and for no reason.
Haven't gotten into Umbral builds yet, I have never earned even one arcane grace or rolling guard. Since I don't generally buy items I can earn, it may be a while before I concede to your other points.

9 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

immortality isn't even necessary

Unless, as mentioned, immortality is precisely what I enjoy running.
I guess I'm just a noob with nothing to add but I thought "defy wukong" means" immortality."

8 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't honestly care about that personally, just that each ability is useful and fun. 

My reply is for the topic, not for you. The changes you suggest are pipe dreamy. I think my ideas for wukong ability changes are better: more logical and simple, and would make him more popular.

I thought I was in agreement with you on several points, but when I examine your post you have suggested that everything about wukong is wrong. You don't like any of his base stats, and you have suggested overhauling or replace all of his abilities. Maybe you don't actually like wukong and in fact are simply bored of wukong and yearning for a new frame that does more of what you like.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I like the stat changes and the passive buff.  I like the change to his 1 that you propose.  I can't say no to an aggro mechanic.  So you get my support on defy changes.  I'm not sure about your cloud walker changes.  I like the changes to cloud walker itself.  But not too sure on the transformations.  Yes to all of your changes on his 4.

Maybe cloud walker could be replaced with the ability for him to create clones of himself.  As that's something he can do.  Cloud walker in itself is a cool thing.  But I don't see much use for it beyond spamming to open for finishers/remove status procs.

[DeMonkey]

7 hours ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

By we you mean you, although it's a good idea that I didn't see in any wukong defy posts and I'm just not that smart. I thought I was agreeing with you that his base shields are too high and for no reason.
Haven't gotten into Umbral builds yet, I have never earned even one arcane grace or rolling guard. Since I don't generally buy items I can earn, it may be a while before I concede to your other points.

I mean we, because there's no reason to not use the Decaying key when making a Defy build. That's the reason I don't think his shields are "too" high, and rather are just not befitting his playstyle. It's also why the ability is not high maintenance.

As for an Umbral build, you'll get there eventually. Wukong with an Umbral build can take Mot and Sorties just fine, and that's all the content you ever really need to fight with him. For anything else, Inaros and Nidus will perform a better job of being immortal due to not needing an ability active 24/7, and thus not being super phased by nullification and energy drain.

7 hours ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

Unless, as mentioned, immortality is precisely what I enjoy running.
I guess I'm just a noob with nothing to add but I thought "defy wukong" means" immortality."

And, as mentioned, immortality isn't necessary. There is no content in this game that requires it, and there is no Wukong viable content that he cannot beat with an Umbral build whilst never touching Defy.

7 hours ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

My reply is for the topic, not for you.

It's my topic, you're responding to me.

7 hours ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

The changes you suggest are pipe dreamy. I think my ideas for wukong ability changes are better: more logical and simple, and would make him more popular.

Then make your own thread. 

7 hours ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

you have suggested that everything about wukong is wrong

Yes, this is known as objectivity. I'm capable of taking a step back from something I enjoy, examining it rationally and discerning it's true value. Nothing Wukong does has any value, beyond the subjective enjoyment I get out of clubbing enemies to death. As stated, you will perform better using no abilities at all than you will using all of them.

7 hours ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

Maybe you don't actually like wukong and in fact are simply bored of wukong and yearning for a new frame that does more of what you like.

I'm bored of silly assumptions, tbh.

1 hour ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Maybe cloud walker could be replaced with the ability for him to create clones of himself.  As that's something he can do.  Cloud walker in itself is a cool thing.  But I don't see much use for it beyond spamming to open for finishers/remove status procs.

My only issue with this is, Warframe's AI is.... not good. 

If you take what I've proposed here and weigh it up against say, a couple of clones that may do something, and may just get shot a bunch.... would it be worth it? Would they use the staff as would be expected, or would they use guns so that they're actually effective but run counter to what Wukong is all about?

I guess you could say I'm not really a fan of clones being the focus of an ability, although if they were included as a secondary feature I'm sure they could be cool.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

35 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

 

I guess you could say I'm not really a fan of clones being the focus of an ability, although if they were included as a secondary feature I'm sure they could be cool.

Oh I totally understand.  I'm just saying from a thematic point I like the idea of his clones being things over transformations.  But that's just me.  Not saying your suggestion is a bad one.

[(XBOX)psyoniko]

Clubbing enemies to death isn't enough for you.

[DeMonkey]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Oh I totally understand.  I'm just saying from a thematic point I like the idea of his clones being things over transformations.  But that's just me.  Not saying your suggestion is a bad one.

That's fair.

1 minute ago, (XB1)psyoniko said:

Clubbing enemies to death isn't enough for you.

I'm just going to copy paste the paragraph that you read that from, as it appears you didn't read all of it.

Yes, this is known as objectivity. I'm capable of taking a step back from something I enjoy, examining it rationally and discerning it's true value. Nothing Wukong does has any value, beyond the subjective enjoyment I get out of clubbing enemies to death. As stated, you will perform better using no abilities at all than you will using all of them.

Subjective enjoyment has little value in a discussion regarding balance and reworks, some value sure, but not much. Objective rational thought is key, and I'm afraid you don't seem... keen on it.

[DeMonkey]

After literally years of trying, it appears as though we have success. 

Is this the point where I die happily, knowing my work is done? Do I take on an apprentice to whom I leave everything after their Wukong training is complete?

Either way, fantastic news to wake up to. I'm looking forward to hearing and reading more about it in the future.

[Nacond]

After seeing the new skin I'm really hyped. To be honest I've just speed read your ideas and I'm on my phone so I'm not sure if I remember your suggestions correctly. 

Passive - somehow I don't rely on combo counter maybe I should give it a try so I'm fine with this. 

1. Please not another charge/leep... Garudas leep feels so clunky I don't want any for wukong... I would feel better with an ability that creates clones or something like that... 

2. I'm fine with defy as it is now because I don't like to die... But I could also live with your suggestion

3. Wukong has a cloud he is able to call, that's something I don't want to lose... So only increased speed/option 1 is what would be fine for me... 

4. It's really great you wrote about every combo. I really dislike the slam which makes wukong feel terrible slow... Also every exalted weapon is somehow special. (Exca - waves, Mesa - auto aim, Ivara - Multishot,...) Wukong just has a staff that gets a length my zaw already has at first attack with riven even more I think... 

So I think it should increase in length much more... Maybe not like in China frame... depending on combo counter would be possible or with each kill/crit. Also I'd like to see his augment implemented because that's one of few augments I really enjoy

 

keep up the great work 🙂

Edited December 8, 2018 by Nacond

[Xepthrichros]

Another Wukong topic that will be left in the dust.

 Sad.

 

That said, yes, I want all of these. Not sure if your 1 rework fits the lore, not that well-versed in the lore myself besides watching some TV series with Sun Wukong but maybe you can explain, 

[DeMonkey]

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Another Wukong topic that will be left in the dust.

Hey now, DE announced a rework not long after posting.

And there's no such thing as coincidences 

4 hours ago, Xepthrichros said:

Not sure if your 1 rework fits the lore, not that well-versed in the lore myself besides watching some TV series with Sun Wukong but maybe you can explain, 

I was incorporating some Warframe "lore" for part of that. By which I mean, if Rhino is strong enough to stomp the ground hard enough to disrupt time, then Wukong and his several thousand ton staff would be able to have some impact.

So essentially, Wukong leaps at the enemy and jabs them with the staff causing their body to be launched backwards. The spirit/soul whatever takes a second (or more accurately 5) to catch up.

In essence it's the exact same Iron Jab that we have now, just that it can be used from range and it doesn't stop you killing the enemy by allowing you to damage them further, which is why I actually consider using the ability detrimental as it currently stands. If I'm meleeing enemies (which you probably are as Wukong) the last thing I want is to knock them away from me.

10 hours ago, Nacond said:

Garudas leep feels so clunky

Could you elaborate on this? I've found that it works really fluidly for me, and DE have taken steps to reduce the LoS issues that she was having with her abilities.

Having a mobility tool is absolutely key for a melee frame.

Edited December 9, 2018 by DeMonkey

[Nacond]

Haven't played the last week so maybe something changed but before I often found myself stuck in some wall especially if the enemies are standing behind a door 🙂 I'll try to recreate it and shoot some photos 

[DeMonkey]

Just now, Nacond said:

Haven't played the last week so maybe something changed but before I often found myself stuck in some wall especially if the enemies are standing behind a door 🙂 I'll try to recreate it and shoot some photos 

Hmmm, that does sound like something that could be wonky.

If such a thing were fixed, what would your thoughts be?