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prime stats


zoobmer
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primes often have higher armor, health, shields, and energy max. however, the most useful stats would be ones that increase ability effectiveness. Rhino Prime and Frost Prime have abilities which benefit from their increased armor, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.

Mesa Prime, as well as well as primed versions of Chroma, Limbo, Zephyr, and many more, would benefit more from a higher base duration compared to their basic versions. I would rather have a higher power duration by using the primed version of these frames, as opposed to the stats which are currently effected.

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7 minutes ago, Atsia said:

That's not how that works, and is unlikely to be how any prime works. They aren't gonna come with higher ability stats.

why? abilities which scale with armor effective come with higher stats. why not apply that to every frame somehow?

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Primes only have boosted "body stats," which are HP/armor/energy/etc.

Primes never have better ability stats, because Primes aren't supposed to be that much better. Armor-scaling abilities get lucky, but there's nothing really gamebreaking about them. If we start giving Primes better ability stats, then they'll become absolutely mandatory over their normal variants. Prime warframes aren't supposed to be that. 

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14 hours ago, ZBanx said:

why? abilities which scale with armor effective come with higher stats. why not apply that to every frame somehow?

And they're the lucky few. HP, Shields, Armor, Energy, and Sprint speed are the only safe stats to change without completely invalidating the base frame.

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34 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Unprimed nidus came with 15% more strength, so it is possible. 

Unprimed nidus is not a prime warframe so that isn't part of the discussion. The discussion is about how the OP wants prime variants to be better than non-prime variants in terms of abilities.

And no. I do not agree.

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On 2018-12-07 at 11:17 PM, ZBanx said:

why? abilities which scale with armor effective come with higher stats. why not apply that to every frame somehow?

The thing is that this isn’t a new question. People have been asking for better Ability affecting stats on Prime warframes since the invention of Prime Warframes beyond Excalibur Prime.

When asked, the answer is simple; DE have stated, on multiple occasions, that Primes are designed to be an optional upgrade, with better base stats, to promote you actually going out and earning them and to ensure that Prime Access is never a ‘pay to win’ option.

They deliberately want to ensure that when you cast Radial Blind, it’s the same Radial Blind no matter which variant of Excal you use. That’s why one of the first patches to happen on Excal Umbra was that his Radial Howl was changed to be the exact same casting time as Radial Blind.

The key is Consistency. A player can pick up either frame, Prime or not, and expect to get exactly the same outcome when you press an ability.

Primes are not supposed to be super special, they have certain rewards for a bit of grind, but according to the people making them, they are not compulsory upgrades.

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On 2018-12-07 at 3:38 PM, ZBanx said:

Rhino Prime and Frost Prime have abilities which benefit from their increased armor, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.

First: Only Rhino Prime has higher armor.  Frost and Frost prime both have the same armor at 300, but Frost prime has higher shields.

Second: This is intentional.  DE has stated multiple times that they want the primes to be a small upgrade that doesn't make them mandatory and completely invalidate the base version in the most important ways, which is abilities.
Essentially they want frames that are modded the same, whether they be prime or not, to cast abilities the same.
This keeps the frames consistent so people know what to expect, further its overall better for the community, especially when frames are vaulted, because they don't have to worry about "Oh, I missed a version that is so much better than the normal variety..."

Think about how annoying it would be to get into the game and like Trinity, and yet never be able to get into a group because you don't have the prime variety that provides +30% duration, making your Trinity so objectively worse that you can't get into any pre-made groups.

On 2018-12-07 at 4:17 PM, ZBanx said:

why? abilities which scale with armor effective come with higher stats. why not apply that to every frame somehow?

So one frame in the entire game gets a slightly better ability that amounts to a grand total of 600 additional health at most into Iron Skin before absorbing damage....on a health type that 600 health doesn't really mean anything at all and might as well effectively not exist considering that the vast majority of IS health should be coming from the absorbed damage.

My question to you is "Why does it have to apply to every frame?  Why do we have to invalidate non-prime frames completely and utterly?"

Edited by Tsukinoki
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11 minutes ago, Atsia said:

I'm sorry?  What do you mean by Unprimed Nidus?

They are trying to say that since Nidus can get +15% ability strength, as well as +50% armor that people keep forgetting, by ranking up that Prime frames should be able to do that as well!  As if trying to imply that Nidus' situation is common and more the rule than a one-off exception that will likely stay the same in this regard when he is inevitably primed.

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50 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

To clarify that I'm talking about a non prime version, showing off that ability stat bonuses are on the table of discussion at DE's offices.. 

Nidus has strength that grows as he levels up, as part of a single Warframe-specific setup. How does this, in any way, show that a topic DE have said is off the table is somehow back on it?

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Let the future decide if it'll happen again..

If what will happen again? Because we've had 5 whole years of people asking this question. It has come up multiple times over the entire history of the game, and the answer is 'no, and here's why we want it to be this way'. The intent of the game hasn't changed, the Devs haven't changed their opinions even slightly, ever, so why would the answer change?

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

Read my updated post and try to get behind it.. 

Right, because Vacuum is a functional stat boost to warframes. The only reason that Vacuum wasn't happening on pets was the programming that was necessary to ensure that the loot didn't get sucked to the pet instead of the frame (meaning that your dog would run off with all your loot).

Pets are getting a rework, too, so you never know what may change.

There was no actual stated reason why Vacuum didn't happen on pets, they just said they weren't looking into it. However Primes having better stats is literally something they have answered multiple times, at least once a year with 'No, Abilities will stay the same between the base frame and the Prime frame. Because of consistency and balance issues in the game.'

Prime Waframes are optional upgrades, and are not required to play this game to its highest level. If you equip a Saryn or a Saryn Prime, as long as the mods are the same on them both, then pressing the ability button has the exact same effect every time.

It's not some arbitrary function that they just haven't looked into. It's one they've literally said that they contemplated doing, but then decided against as a base model of how they want the game to work.

Edited by Thaylien
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On 2018-12-08 at 3:19 AM, (XB1)Erudite God said:

then they'll become absolutely mandatory

Tell me about an exaggeration. They won't be more mandatory than today. The content it still the same, the content you do with the prime ( that would have other kind of buffs ) , you could still do it with he normal version. Come on.

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14 hours ago, mikakor said:

Tell me about an exaggeration. They won't be more mandatory than today. The content it still the same, the content you do with the prime ( that would have other kind of buffs ) , you could still do it with he normal version. Come on.

you sir are missing the point.   if i use lets say "shuriken" on a normal ash and each one does 1000 dmg,  but randomplayer1050 over here has his fancy ash prime's shuriken that by default does 1500 dmg without mods, than that ash prime is objectively better than my normal ash.   thus id be left out of any pre made team that was asking for an ash.  why?  because why would they choose my normal ash when this other guy's ash prime will have naturally better power strength range and duration.

 

if prime warframes had higher default ability stats when compared to their normal versions, then the primes would always be considered a mandatory choice when deciding between them and their normal versions.    

 

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4 hours ago, (XB1)Neon Lights9212 said:

you sir are missing the point.   if i use lets say "shuriken" on a normal ash and each one does 1000 dmg,  but randomplayer1050 over here has his fancy ash prime's shuriken that by default does 1500 dmg without mods, than that ash prime is objectively better than my normal ash.   thus id be left out of any pre made team that was asking for an ash.  why?  because why would they choose my normal ash when this other guy's ash prime will have naturally better power strength range and duration.

 

if prime warframes had higher default ability stats when compared to their normal versions, then the primes would always be considered a mandatory choice when deciding between them and their normal versions.    

 

Still wouldn't. And knowing DE, it wouldn't be a ''1500'' buff, but 150 maximum, maybe. Nothing amazing.just like what we have now.

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7 hours ago, mikakor said:

Still wouldn't. And knowing DE, it wouldn't be a ''1500'' buff, but 150 maximum, maybe. Nothing amazing.just like what we have now.

thats just it, my numbers were examples.  but remember, all of our mods run on a percentage boost system   so if my ash did 1000 dmg with shuriken and had mods that gave him 200% power strength, he will do 2000.   ash prime with the same build but doing higher default dmg on his shuriken will get a larger boost.  making that 150 dmg gap into a 300 dmg gap.  but thats just with power strength.   apply the same concept to duration or range and the difference would be much more noticable

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I have all of the frames. I only play the ones I like. And Primed frames should be unique and not just more powerful versions of their non-prime counterparts. That's how you get power creep. There should be ups and downs like corrupted mods have. Skill 1 increases but skill 2 is weaker kind of thing. So I dont agree with OP.

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Primed variant arent optional.

Most of the time they look better and all the te have better base stats more polarity and so on.

They are a must have because that bonus - however small is - could be the edge that let you win.

Saying anything else is trash and an outright lie. Everyone who can achieve it - and its not that hard luckily - will use a prime  over a normal because they are upgrades to the base frame.

IF they would be a variant the bullS#&$ many wrote above could be true but they are not.

A prime is flat out better than a normal. There is no reason - absolutely no reason - to use a base frame if you have the prime.

Primes are sought after also the mr rank bonus. So we are highly motivated to get them. The long term goal is to have all the primes.

In short: the OP is absolutely valid.

The only real requirement would be uniformity: every prime shiuld have the potential to get the same kind of bonus not only the newest one.

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The free polarity only saves you a forma,sometimes. Sometimes you end up rolling it off anyway.  I definitely know people that arent trying to reach mr20+ and dont care about certain primes. Soon as they add higher noteworthy stats (strength,duration yada yada) to primes you will have ppl correctly calling fowl for it looking like a pay to win move to increase buys. Some primes barely have a stat buff,so small it means jack. Saying anyone that could get a prime, will, is not correct, some people don't care enough about the bonus or mastery to bother.

 

Leave primes alone, warframes are plenty strong enough as is with the exception of ones that just need some work.  Fashionframe it, get it for MR..whatever.. but no need to suddenly make them more powerful

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14 hours ago, Csaszar said:

Primed variant arent optional.

Most of the time they look better and all the te have better base stats more polarity and so on.

They are a must have because that bonus - however small is - could be the edge that let you win.

Saying anything else is trash and an outright lie. Everyone who can achieve it - and its not that hard luckily - will use a prime  over a normal because they are upgrades to the base frame.

IF they would be a variant the bullS#&$ many wrote above could be true but they are not.

A prime is flat out better than a normal. There is no reason - absolutely no reason - to use a base frame if you have the prime.

Primes are sought after also the mr rank bonus. So we are highly motivated to get them. The long term goal is to have all the primes.

In short: the OP is absolutely valid.

The only real requirement would be uniformity: every prime shiuld have the potential to get the same kind of bonus not only the newest one.

Okay heres the thing, they AREN'T mandatory. Yes they have slightly better base stats. Valkyr is a good example. She has a high armor value and her prime got more, but because of how armor works with diminishing returns she isn't that much of an upgrade. Her fashion may also be better as with other primes, but with tennogen most people use those skins either way, which can be used on all versions of a frame. Saying they aren't mandatory isn't trash and it isn't a lie, because it's not. I put off using frost prime for years because he just wasn't that much better than his non-prime variant. 

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16 hours ago, Csaszar said:

Primed variant arent optional.

Most of the time they look better and all the te have better base stats more polarity and so on.

They are a must have because that bonus - however small is - could be the edge that let you win.

Saying anything else is trash and an outright lie. Everyone who can achieve it - and its not that hard luckily - will use a prime  over a normal because they are upgrades to the base frame.

IF they would be a variant the bullS#&$ many wrote above could be true but they are not.

A prime is flat out better than a normal. There is no reason - absolutely no reason - to use a base frame if you have the prime.

Primes are sought after also the mr rank bonus. So we are highly motivated to get them. The long term goal is to have all the primes.

In short: the OP is absolutely valid.

The only real requirement would be uniformity: every prime shiuld have the potential to get the same kind of bonus not only the newest one.

I think people are looking at this from the perspective of organized groups. if the primed version has better stats, the assumption is that no one would any longer want recruit non-primed versions for their squads, and people who don't have the prime will be benched. thing is, IDK how many people even actually coordinate their frames.

I know I, for one, just group up with a random group of people who want to do the same mission, and just hope we have a good team comp. I know that isn't always as effective though; one sortie defense we had three players bring a loadout focused on sheildbaring (my Limbo, another Limbo, and a Frost), so I turned to the Saryn in our group and said "you're our only damage dealer. we are really counting on you!"

even still, Warframe missions are designed for uncoordinated compositions. it's a fundamentally different game from so called "trinity MMOs," where if your group consists of anything other than one tank, one healer, one AOE damage dealer, and one heavy damage dealer, you're screwed. sure, you can still coordinate your comp for better results, but you're not actually expected to.

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Primes weren't even supposed to have different stats but they started to use Primes as a way of tuning frames after reworks or nerfs.

Like I'd bet plat Titania Prime will have a larger energy pool and I'd be very surprised if Wukong doesn't get more Speed.

Not even sure what they'll do for Mesa. Maybe a little Shields? She doesn't need anything really.

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