Why Do People Need An Opt Out For Stalker Mode?

[Aldain]

Just now, Hypernaut1 said:

Ok, so other than possibly getting downed by stalker... What's the issue? 

You think DE we'll leave it so that a player stalker can tell the objective? 

I fail to see why a player stalker is so feared. If you're going to respond with wild sarcasm, don't bother. I'm not trying to fight here.

Sorry wild sarcasm is how I deal with people who call others cowards for not wanting something that they do, and no I don't think DE would make this mode as awful as it could be, but to ignore the fact that trolls will ALWAYS ALWAYS find a way to use and abuse a system to make others experiences worse (see dark sectors). You'll have to forgive my lack of faith in any player controlled system that can affect or manipulate other player's experiences negatively in any fashion because history has proven that this is always the case.

[Falconer777]

1 час назад, BornWithTeeth сказал:

So, you never saw previous debates on this, where people who liked the idea of Stalker mode became almost pathologically vicious towards people who didn’t?

 

I was not joking or exaggerating when I made reference to pro-PvP players quite literally saying that anyone who would opt out of invasion mode should be sent to Iraq to be physically shot at. I wish I’d taken a screencap, I’d post it here in this thread so you could see.

I didn’t follow the topic from the very beginning, to be honest, but in all the other topics of this forum, where the PvP issue was raised, the PvE supporters were much more aggressive.
As for me personally, I am categorically against sending PvE lovers to Iraq with their subsequent shooting!)

[Aramil999]

10 minutes ago, Aldain said:

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE MARKET DICTATING THE NEED IN THE FIRST BLOODY PLACE!

Seriously are you just reading a completely different forum and then responding on this one or is this intentional to try and defraud us since you can't make an argument that isn't based on an "In my opinion" statement?!

What? How you connect, "market preferw pvp games" with "i want you to play pvp"??????????????

I really try to be polite but man...

Non forced pvp will simply give you choice, to do PvP or PvE or both, now it is too hard to enjoy pvp for most players since it has way too higj skill floor.

[Hypernaut1]

13 minutes ago, Aldain said:

Sorry wild sarcasm is how I deal with people who call others cowards for not wanting something that they do, and no I don't think DE would make this mode as awful as it could be, but to ignore the fact that trolls will ALWAYS ALWAYS find a way to use and abuse a system to make others experiences worse (see dark sectors). You'll have to forgive my lack of faith in any player controlled system that can affect or manipulate other player's experiences negatively in any fashion because history has proven that this is always the case.

Troll how? Any major trolling issues should be easily fixable.

I think the main issue would be a running/evading stalker. 

Do you put a timer on it and then let A.i. takeover?

People always say they want "better a.i"... Well a player controlled assassin is better a.i. There just needs to be restrictions on troll ability. 

I personally view a player controlled stalker as the perfect fit. He should feel somewhat like an equal. Like another player/Warframe going rogue.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Aldain]

1 minute ago, Aramil999 said:

What? How you connect, "market preferw pvp games" with "i want you to play pvp"??????????????

I really try to be polite but man...

Non forced pvp will simply give you choice, to do PvP or PvE or both, now it is too hard to enjoy pvp for most players since it has way too higj skill floor.

...OK I give up, you win, have your whatever the hell it is you're fighting for, this is getting too stupid to deal with and the entire point of any argument has long sense been lost in the thread of deflection, goalpost moving and some other posters just plain insulting others in this thread.

[Ornothopter]

21 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ok, so other than possibly getting downed by stalker... What's the issue? 

-snip-

I fail to see why a player stalker is so feared.

I don't enjoy the PvP experience. I do not want to be forced to experience something I don't enjoy. I do not like playing PvP shooters and the only reason I'm still here (and loving it) is that this is not a PvP shooter game. I wouldn't care about a Stalker mode if not for the fact that it might not include the opt out method and force me to experience gameplay I do not enjoy and it might have rewards locked behind it, essentially blackmailing me to dive into an experience I don't enjoy with those rewards.

I don't even care if I'd stomp the player Stalker every time. I don't want to play PvP. I want to be allowed to go about my merry way playing PvE without being forced to play content I don't like or being denied some (gameplay relevant) rewards by hiding them behind that content.

[BornWithTeeth]

On 2018-12-04 at 12:21 PM, Aramil999 said:

 

Oh btw. I will not argue with someone who will destroy someone elso expirience just because he doesn't like something. I agree with you on solo missions but be a bit more open minded.

“I have no interest in PvP.”

“That means you’re ruining the experience of people who do!”

On 2018-12-05 at 2:24 PM, Aramil999 said:

 

Be more openminded.

 

 

23 hours ago, Aramil999 said:

 instead of trying to delete it maybe think how to make it enjoyable to as many players as possible YOU PvP-haters included. 

 

8 hours ago, Yousho said:

Oh, come on now, don't be such a baby about it. Realistically, how often do you get attacked by the stalker? 

Once every other blue moon, if the stars align and the wind is blowing just the right way some guy might connect to your game and try to shoot you. My heart bleeds for you. 

 

43 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

This is what I'm saying. When it comes to asking for a challenge, the forum doesn't know what it wants at all. 

I still fail to see how player stalker still be THAT much different from a.i. stalker besides being a bit more cognisant. It'll actually make the stalker challenging. It's "forced" PvP for like a minute or two, not much different than a "forced" stalker encounter. 

People are just afraid to actually have stalker kick their butts every now and then. 

.

 

39 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

maybe Warframe playerbase is SIMILAR to global playerbase (of all online multiplayer games) and they actually would enjoy some form of PvP?

Now then.

29 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

@BornWithTeeth @Aldain 

You just pulled this from nowhere... noone in this thread stated that "if i like pvp you should too" some players just said that they do not mind it as it would be very similar to normal stalker.

 

When people say to you that they do not want forced PvP, perhaps do not try to argue with them that their preferences are wrong.

[Aldain]

Thank you teeth, its too early in the morning for this outright short-term memory loss argumentation.

[Hypernaut1]

5 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

 

Now then.

When people say to you that they do not want forced PvP, perhaps do not try to argue with them that their preferences are wrong.

You're right. DE will do whatever DE feels is best for the game. 

I don't want to come if as I'm telling people what they should or shouldn't like. Im just participating in a discussion presenting the other side. You can't get mad that people who DO want a player stalker also choose to be vocal. I could make another pro stalker thread and I'll still have two sides to the discussion.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[BornWithTeeth]

14 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You're right. DE will do whatever DE feels is best for the game. 

I don't want to come if as I'm telling people what they should or shouldn't like. Im just participating in a discussion presenting the other side. You can't get mad that people who DO want a player stale also choose to be vocal.

That’s fair. I can point out when I feel that someone’s argument is fallacious though, and I’ve had to do so several times in this thread.

 

 

EDIT: An additional point worth returning to, about how DE will do what they feel is best for the game: Scott knows this would go badly. He knows that if they make it opt in, then no-one will play the damned thing.

Edited December 6, 2018 by BornWithTeeth

[Hypernaut1]

20 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That’s fair. I can point out when I feel that someone’s argument is fallacious though, and I’ve had to do so several times in this thread.

its a discussion. No problem with that.

Im still not fully understanding the issue with PvP stalker if

1. trolling issues are handled through timers, invulnerable objectives, restricted spawn areas, ,ability cooldown, etc

2. hosting issues arent present

3. Stalker encounters frequency isnt increased. 

Whats consensus in this thread as to why player stalker is bad? Something more than just "i just don't like it" What are the real tangible issues? im truly asking, not dismissing. 

My answer as to WHY i would like it is that human A.I. would add a little bit of life and unpredictability to stalker. I think he'll still die often, but at least ill get to see stalker try to use something beyond suicidal tactics....hopefully. If anything, i welcome the little extra bit of challenge player stalker could present. Isnt that what MOST of us want? a challenge?

i personally think the benefits outweigh the potential issues that should be solvable.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Hypernaut1

[Gabbynaru]

10 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 Whats consensus in this thread as to why player stalker is bad? Something more than just "i just don't like it"

That's enough, isn't it? If people don't wanna do something, they should not be forced to do it. I don't like defense missions, and the game doesn't force me to do them, so I'm fine with them existing for the people who do like them. Same with Stalker Mode, I don't like PvP, so I should not be forced into it. As long as that's the case, I doubt anyone has any issues with its existence in the game. It's the forcing part that's the issue. Just like when asking someone for a sexual favor, if they say no, then no means no. Same for us non-PvP-ers. If we say we don't wanna be a part of that, then we don't wanna be a part of that. If we have that agreement, then you can enjoy your mode, and we can enjoy our unstoppable god fantasies and both parties will be happy.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Gabbynaru

[BornWithTeeth]

@Hypernaut1

 

Why is “I don’t like PvP,” not an acceptable answer to you?

[MystMan]

Honestly, I'm not all that worried about any of this.

Chances are big it will not happen at all. Game devs promise many things, not all of them happen. Remember the Kingpin system?  How many years ago was that mentioned for the first time?  Now it's just a whisper nobody talks about.

And if this Stalker thing does happen, it will simply go the way of the dodo  solar rail conflicts, lunaro, conclave.  People can ignore reality all they want and imagine whatever fantasy pops in their mind, but reality won't ignore you: pvp design is not DE's strength.  They tried, not once, not twice, not thrice but four times at the whole pvp thing.  Why would this Stalker thing be any different?

Expecting something different from repeating identical mistakes is madness.  Warframe made it to Steam most played list for years without selling out and relying on the pvp bandwagon. That's amazing, it shows that the game has something unique to offer on its own merit without following hype.  Adding pvp to something does not automatically make it better. That's like a bad cook believing adding pepper to any dish will make it taste better.  Ew.  Don't do that. You're a terrible cook if you do. 😅   Adding pvp is one thing, adding GOOD pvp is another. And at what point has DE convinced anybody they are capable of that after all these years? All games disappear into obscurity when changes are made that piss off the backbone of its playerbase, which shouldn't surprise anybody at all.

"More players means more money"   Yeah, this mindset right here, it is a frightening one.  Sacrificing your identity, your quality, everything you stand for that makes you unique for more money.....  That's the EA/Activision way. They made a lot of money..... and now everybody hates them. Like some youtubers say: "they don't want a lot of money, they want ALL of the money".  DE doesn't need more money, they're doing fine on their own merits without copying others, I'm glad they didn't sell out their soul to greed.

 

Some people drop the word" challenge".  If you want that, you're playing the wrong game.  Warframe is a casual power fantasy game.  They joy of mass-murdering drones as a one man army is why Warframe is so much fun. Maybe you get bored of that but the charts don't lie, PLENTY of people like this. The only challenge about is when you start out new and have to work your way up to get credits/resources/mods.   Once you're at the top, you have become a walking deity of destruction.  And just like all lores about deities, they always get bored for being too powerful.  At that point, the logical thing to do is just play another game. Our frames are too powerful for pvp (see Solar Rails), so they had to gimp them down for balancing and at that point it is no longer Warframe but "something else".

[Aramil999]

33 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

When people say to you that they do not want forced PvP, perhaps do not try to argue with them that their preferences are wrong.

In none of this fragments did I say that you have to play fresh new pvp mode, DE Scott thinks it should be forced, not me. Why you put some words i never said into my lips... I said that MAYBE many of PvE only players could enjoy such PvP mode of they try it out... gosh... where does it include "you WILL FOR SURE ENJOY PVP HUEHUEHUE"... Nowhere.

[SneakyErvin]

On 2018-12-05 at 3:24 PM, Aramil999 said:

Lot's of people started to post:

"if u like pvp/invasions go play different game", this is very bad point because it can be said ABOUT all new features, so if this mindset is the only correct one game should get no new updates.

Be more openminded.

edit: i mean suggest something, don't just runt about how bad idea it is, maybe add time limit to prevent long trolling etc.

But those are valid points because it cannot be said about all new features. We are discussing forced PvP in a PvE game that doesnt even run on dedicated servers. A game where the issues of implementing such a mode far outshadows the benefits. It is an uphill battle to even make it work fairly and properly in this game simply based on the peer-to-peer mechanics and the shoddy matchmaking setup (the worst part of WF by a longshot) works.

So yes, if you want PvP you should go play a different game where PvP is part of the core design and not some afterthought made up of leftovers with extremely poor balance and design.

The gameplay mechanics around Stalker are the least of the problems such a mode would face since there are already restrictions on Stalker regarding where he can and cannot show up or how early/late in a mission he may appear.

I dont understand why DE bothers to waste time once again on adding another PvP feature when neither conclave or lunaro have worked or been popular enough. And adding it to the PvE part is the worst idea possible and the people advocating it only imagine cheap kills vs PvErs, the same people that likely cant handle actual PvP where both parts are likeminded and ready for it.

[Aramil999]

2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

We are discussing forced PvP in a PvE game that doesnt even run on dedicated servers. 

Only DE Scott said it should be forced, litteraly no single person in this thread said that. 

"Be more openminded" and don't add problems where there are none. It most likely will NOT be forced.

[EmberStar]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Ok, so other than possibly getting downed by stalker... What's the issue?

For me?  The issue is THAT IT IS PVP.  No amount of "what's the big deal" will change the fact that I HATE pvp more deeply than I can adequately convey in mere text.  I *will* opt out of PVP, even if that means opting out of the entire game.

And in the past, DE *has* done things that turned out to be a BAD IDEA.  I can only assume that a couple of devs *really* love PVP and keep trying to find a way to make it work.  And that's why things like Dark Sectors and the PVP Tactical Alerts keep happening.  Dark Sectors were a toxic dumpster fire.  The PVP Alerts ended up just pissing off everyone.  PVE players were unhappy because cosmetics were locked behind PVP.  PVP players were unhappy because PVE players would join the missions, then just allow themselves to be shot and stay dead until they could revive just before the mission ended to avoid getting flagged as AFK.  They did *NOT* result in a surge of new PVP converts.

Edited December 6, 2018 by EmberStar

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

I'm just not convinced that this is a good implementation of a PvP offering.

If the main reason for adding in a Stalker mode is to draw in new players I think it is the wrong mechanism. By it's very nature it is based around the element of surprise, an occasional interaction with someone else's mission. I don't see how this would apply for a large number of people. How would it be regulated to satisfy many people wanting to play as a Stalker without making Stalker interactions commonplace? And if they aren't commonplace, why would someone be attracted to Warframe PvP from outside the game to play a mode that might only let you be the Stalker once in a blue moon?

Secondly, as it stands (from what little we know) it seems very one-sided. The Stalker get's their fun invading a mission, but what's in it for the PvE players? Good PvP should give both sides of the equation an enjoyable experience; this doesn't the way it currently stands.

It feels like a gimmick to be honest; someone has gone "Hey we can do this, that'll be cool" (In fact Scott says as much in the video - It started as a side project and they thought it was cool.), but as a fully fledged commercial offering, designed to bring in new players I feel it is substantially flawed, primarily on the difference in numbers on the two sides of the table. 

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Aramil999 said:

Only DE Scott said it should be forced, litteraly no single person in this thread said that. 

"Be more openminded" and don't add problems where there are none. It most likely will NOT be forced.

Scott’s word matters more than yours. We are, inevitably, discussing the idea in the context in which DE have placed it, and Scott was pretty clear: if they launch with an opt out button, he knows it’ll be a dead mode on arrival.

 

So, yeah, that does in fact mean that if we are talking about it, we are talking about forced invasions and forced PvP. Trying to sugarcoat it or negotiate ways to make it ok for folks for just plain don’t want it is pretty pointless.

[SneakyErvin]

8 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

Only DE Scott said it should be forced, litteraly no single person in this thread said that. 

"Be more openminded" and don't add problems where there are none. It most likely will NOT be forced.

It is still a waste of resources because it will be used by such a small margin of the playerbase.

The idea of adding PvP to a game as an afterthought is simply foreign to me. It never works properly or gets popular enough, WF has shown this 3 times already actually. Rails, Conclave and Lunaro. Why do it a 4th time and think the outcome will be any different? Why not use those resources on getting us things we need? Like proper end-game, better level options for missions, revisiting ESO, ironing out arbitrations and so on.

edit: Also envision that this game mode will get the same treatment as every other release lately i.e itteration #1 to live, a few tiny changes a week later and then that is that. No matter how many bumps there are with mechanics and exploits it will stay like that for a long time. And if that is with forced participation and probably Stalker exploits it will bring the game down.

Edited December 6, 2018 by SneakyErvin

[Aikatears]

8 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

In none of this fragments did I say that you have to play fresh new pvp mode, DE Scott thinks it should be forced, not me. Why you put some words i never said into my lips... I said that MAYBE many of PvE only players could enjoy such PvP mode of they try it out... gosh... where does it include "you WILL FOR SURE ENJOY PVP HUEHUEHUE"... Nowhere.

you know how many times people post a statement like that just to get something they want in...and it ends badly....If the devs dont want to add the option to opt out then this mode does not matter what ways you think it will work will be added in. That the first problem you have to solve before anything else.

[Aramil999]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Scott’s word matters more than yours. We are, inevitably, discussing the idea in the context in which DE have placed it, and Scott was pretty clear: if they launch with an opt out button, he knows it’ll be a dead mode on arrival.

 

So, yeah, that does in fact mean that if we are talking about it, we are talking about forced invasions and forced PvP. Trying to sugarcoat it or negotiate ways to make it ok for folks for just plain don’t want it is pretty pointless.

But you guys keep attacking me for "forcing others to pvp and stomp poor pve onlys" well... i have never wanted that nor did i ever state that in this thread. So I state facts. Yes Scotts word means more than mine but by that logic you not wanting stalker mode will get it anyways so all your time in this topic has gone moot... because his word means more than YOURS too.

My opinion is that stalker mode should take place in some kind of new location maybe locked by some quest or something. Where players would farm things related with this mode and face each other. So there you would find only players interested in pvp+pve content. That is MY idea that I want to "sell". Not forcing anyone to pvp.

[EmberStar]

9 minutes ago, Aramil999 said:

Only DE Scott said it should be forced, litteraly no single person in this thread said that. 

"Be more openminded" and don't add problems where there are none. It most likely will NOT be forced.

Actually several people in the thread *have* said that.  But their posts seem to have mysteriously disappeared.

And [DE]Scott said outright that it would *have* to be forced because if people can turn it off then the only valid Stalker targets will be noobs who don't know that it's a thing that can be turned off.  And in the past the devs *have* tried to force PVP to be a thing, with the Dark Sectors and PVP events.  I can only guess that a couple of the devs are PVP fans like the ones that keep popping up in this thread, and think that if they just MAKE people try it then they'll realize they secretly love it and just didn't know it.

[Aramil999]

7 minutes ago, Aikatears said:

you know how many times people post a statement like that just to get something they want in...and it ends badly....If the devs dont want to add the option to opt out then this mode does not matter what ways you think it will work will be added in. That the first problem you have to solve before anything else.

Yes, I posted this thread to disscuss ways to solve such issues.