Why PVP would benefit DE (not a rework conclave post)

[SneakyErvin]

You bring up valid reasons why WF will never have working PvP and why it should simply be forgotten as is.

There is also another reason. PvP development takes away development time from other things aswell as hogging resources. Why should they ever waste resources on not even 1% of the active playerbase? I mean trials already had extremely low attendance with the 2% activity, atleast trials were part of the PvE. Conclave has less than that and needs far more things to work properly, be fair, balanced and rewarding. Like the netcode, which is in an even worse state than most games because we dont have real dedicated servers. And even the dedicated servers available are iffy because they are set up by players, meaning there is no 100% way to know they are good enough to give us a great experience in a match.

I just hope people will realize that WF is simply not a game designed with PvP in mind, making it even harder to balance around it. Just the fact that people throw out things like "DE can just spend xXx on it" makes me think they have no idea or regard for what actually is involved. As I said, get it in your heads that whatever PvP they work on will take away production time and resources from PvE. That simply makes it unjustifiable to dedicate time and people on because the user percentage is too damn low for any form of actual return.

edit: Just to get some form of scope on how hard it is to fix netcode, take a look at BF4. It was designed purely as a PvP game from the ground up, yet it took them nearly a year after release to get the netcode in order. And that was with actual dedicated servers and their own engine being used and perfected. Besides that, the game never got their guns and stuff in balance, even when near real world physics were used for them.

Edited January 16, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[rand0mname]

Thank you, OP. Enjoyed the read.

I especially liked the paragraph there you talk about how unfun it is to try to figure out why you died in Conclave.

I know DE likes us to think for ourselves, but staring at my own entrails or studying the jump patterns of PvP gods is a little bit too much for me. I am not an Augur!

Edited January 16, 2019 by rand0mname

[spyroxion]

41 minutes ago, Olphalarepth said:

I can totally understand you believe me but the reasoning is just faulty. PvP is not forced upon players, you don't want to pvp? don't do it. Saying that pvp brings toxicity is just not true and even unfair to some extent.

I despise pvp on games that feature a pve content. We can argue that DE has bigger plans for the game in general but pvp-ers asking for a bone tossed their way have a point since conclave is a joke of a mode, unrewarding, unbalanced and totally not fun. Not saying that it should be the main focus now but DE should at least waste a couple of words to let us know if something is even brewing for the conclave or if they even care for this mode at all because, if so, I'm sure many people would finally put their hopes to rest and focus on the main game since it's unlikely they were playing warframe for the pvp in the first place.

You see, it's easy to say "you don't want to pvp? don't do it". I never did PvP in other MMOs I played but then you enter forums - toxicity beyond belief, grief towards certain equipment (even if you don't pvp and someone sees you with certain equip that is unfair in pvp you might get salt for no reason), in-game chats gets filled up with toxicity and general behavior of players changes all over the board. It's just sad truth when it comes to online games and players.

And it's why I love warframe - there is no this kind of toxicity, yeah there is complains and some toxicity here and there, but it's not the one that stems from PvP

[FlusteredFerret]

3 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Resume:

Overwatch rank:

(Grand Master 4136)

League of Legends:

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/year-in-review-2018#/summoner/na/kdaakaliepic

(Diamond V).

If you guys don't know what those ranks mean, it means I'm the top 1 percent ish of both games in the competitive ladder.

My warframe profile:

 

(Its to show I have everything except "Sigma and Octanis" and Zylok, I have all kitguns and k drives leveled and mastered, those are Kitgun phantom bugs and K drive some reason stuck at rank 16)

Introduction:

Anyway that's basically my resume on my experiences with these 3 games to sharing my opinion, I've played 2 highly popular competitive games and one of em is a shooter and I'm also a veteran of Warframe.

 

I keep see people harping on how they need to bring PVP back into the game or they should add battle royale to attract streamers and stuff like that.

 

Here's my take on it:

I have tried out Warframe PVP back when it first released with a healthy player base along with the release lunaru. I also qued up again last friday to see how the pvp meta has evolved..  Here is my take on the PVP back then and to now and what Warframe has to offer in PVP department compared to other well established pvp games and their balance

 

1) It is "unsatisfying" to see someone kill you When you die in Warframe PVP you don't know how they did it, you just fall flat on your face and then you respawn. You don't know how you died, how they did it, and what abilities they used, how to counter it, you sorta just fall flat in your face. In Overwatch and League, when you die, you might be because you did something wrong (positioning like over extending or wrong place wrong time or you screwed up your an ability) or the enemy outplaying you (by countering your said screwed abilities or seeing you're overextending and doing something stupid and you're not suppose to)  you can actively see it on your screen BOTH YOU AND YOUR OPPONENT SEE THIS. League of Legends has the blessing of a "God" view and you can see what you did wrong and they did wrong and you have the chance to learn to correct your mistakes. Overwatch there is the death cam to see how EXACTLY they kill you, though most of the time you don't even need to watch it because it is very telegraphed on what you died to, how you died to it from visual and sound ques.

 

Warframe itself does not have this. Even in PVE, the visual and sound que are non existent on whats killing you due to the theres so much visual and sound noise, I'm not saying its a bad thing since its an ability based horde shooters. You know what they did get right? YOU killing the NPC enemies, from their death animations (them corroding away, getting burned to death or frozen and smashed), to their abilities is satisfying to use, etc etc. You feel empowered to kill them which leads me to next point.

 

2)It is "unsatisfying to kill someone. When you kill someone in PVP it is unsatisfying. In League of Legends and OW,  when you kill someone there is an announcement of what you did to yourself, to your team mates and to the enemy team, Warframe of course has this but the way OW and League Implemented it is better, with people you and your team knowing that it's great that you did that so your teams can do many things (take dragon when you get a kill top or push and wipe them if you got a key enemy player out), and "abuse it" so that your team can get a victory . 

 

But not just that but due to Warframe being a host based game, everybody has a disadvantage except the host. And you could argue that it's just "one" person that has the advantage but PVP is inherent that there is sort of even playing field that you're playing in and you outplay your opponents due to their mistakes or them abusing your mistakes. But when you're a hostee and you find  the hoster, you will be at 100 disadvantage no matter what. There is also inherent issue that since it is host based and also I believe something in Warframes code, that your abilities and hits just don't register at all correctly. I can't quite pin the source but abilities and guns just have a 1-2 seconds delay before they're registered as damage due to this "lag" and when you do get the kill, you question if its your skill that  did it, or the enemy that screwed up or you just got lucky with the connection over someone. You never want that in a PVP game.

 

3)  Warframe it's core is not built or can be balanced along with netcode, there will always be a prevalent cheesy Meta. Talking about abilities and hitboxes, Each Warframes that was built with whatever DE had an idea at the time and execute it. You can see it in their dev streams and dev cycle and the kits themselves, they just thought of the idea, they implement, and just didn't care about anything at all except if "Is it fun for the player to use this Warframe to kill these mobs". They just jumbo a bunch of abilities they thought was cool together even though 90 percent of the time they don't work together and generally only 1-2 abilities are useful. And for a PVE, thats fine, its a great idea even. And its great to experiment with Warframe abilities, for ourselves and for DE to learn to make abilities. And the abilities themselves told the warframe's personality and even the sprint speed and stats, Rhino is super slow and big because he's a tank while Loki is fast and squishy cause hes a nimble boi. However when you transport these into a PVP game with abilities and all, sprint speed, and Warframe size hit boxes. It just doesn't work.  

 

 

League of Legends and Overwatch has numerous balance issues that I won't go in but I'm going to be honest: AT THIS POINT OF TIME IN BOTH GAMES: They are only largely overexagerated in esports (and they have to, these guys fight to win for real money) and maybe the top percent of the player bases while the rest of the 90 percent, there is no "broken" pick that can completely carry you, The only thing I can see is GOAT in Overwatch, and even then that is barely executed correctly when I smurf down to platinum or diamond in OW and even high GM. There might strong picks that are 5-10 percent stronger than another person pick but a good player thats better than their opponent can generally always outplay it.

In Warframe, there is power disconnect/differential between each Warframe is just all over the place with X Warframe being 2X or even 4X better than Y Warframe in everyway. Due to the model of making Warframes kit to be fun to kill massive amount of targets or in cheesy ways in PVE, it doesn't translate well to PVP with so many power differential from abilities, sprint speed, and hitboxes, Someone who is slower and bigger are at inherent disadvantage in PVP games cause they're  easier to hit. They're suppose to be tanks and they have to be compensated for these trade offs. Warframe has no such thing because each warframe was built with a theme in mind with when initially built, with no sense of balance in a PVP setting.  There will alway a pick at the top that you are forced to pick if you want to win due to how absurdly powerful over other picks. And in PVP, wether its casual or a rank game, people want to win. So a meta will always be built where there are top tier picks.

 

Going back to what I said to que Warframe PVP back then and now.  Back then I remember specifically that half the games it was this: From when the event happened where they rewarded you for participating in 10 pvp games, and my own time. I vividly remember that in 50 to 75 percent of the games there was always 1-3 people in each game that just were parkouring non stop with ctrl +space and hopping around walls. They only "stop" to shoot a bit to hit you then keep going. This inherently was due to that you can't hit them even if your gun is on them, the speed with which they jumped, no gun can kill them as there isn't any one shot kill guns to stop this, they will get over a corner or a wall then go to a health pack and heal up and pop back at you running past you. If you try to chase them its a wild goose chase since of the mobility of this system is insane.

 

This combined with the lag, compounds the issue if you unable to hit them, and  abilities imbalance cause anybody to be frustrated and probably to find targets similar to you, who just wants to shoot you without running around like an idiot. I tried this myself with a Loki and I found that I myself couldn't hit anybody either due to the amount of speed I was getting and hits not registering due to connection lag. Compounded again that besides dying to that, I died to random shots from no where, and abilities that outright didn't know were coming from that just discouraged me to play PVP on my own.

 

4) So why did I post all of this?

 

I read some forum post how DE should focus on PVP and how theres an active community and that it would be great if there was a battle royale.

I log on last night on Friday, a high population time.

I que up for PVP, I get into a game where there was one single player on the other team. So it was just me and him.

It was a Loki. And he was jumping around the map just as those years ago when I "played" pvp.

He did hit and run tatics, I try to chase him, can't do anything cause then we're just both jumping. If I try to stop and shoot he runs away, if I try to outplay him by predicting his route, can't, he just goes around randomly. I stand in one spot waiting for him, he just whittle me down till he kills me. And even if I chase him and gets bullets on him, he is the host and I can't register my bullets faster than his.

The cheesy meta from years ago are still here and prevalent. I was quite fascinated with this at the time since I myself "grew up" with League of Legends and watched it changed and evolved (Been diamond for 4 seasons in a row) and I was also playing OW since its inception and till now. And I know how meta's change and the game got more balanced for both games. It became more polished and more satisfying to play but for this "meta" for Warframe PVP to still be prevalent, I was just sort of...awestruck? I don't know. It was intrigue. I wasn't mad at the time. I wanted to actually que up more games, to see if many people used this. I qued up the same mode and.... I got him 2 more times, so it was just him and me. No new players. He won all 3 games.

I left and didn't reque, then 3 minutes later and he whispered me, "gg noob, get good". Now, after that, THEN i was salty. And I got off.

And 3 days later I make this post.

 

Conclusion: 

There is a reason why when PVP released nobody picked it up, Warframe itself wasn't designed to be one. Its code, its connection, its abilities, it's stats, its warframes is just not built to handle deliver a satisfying a PVP experience and they have learned from it, it's why only 0.5 percent of player base is active in PVP at any given time and will stay that way.

People want PVP in Warframe because Warfarme is such a great game.. It's like you want PVP in your favorite single player game, mine would be Final Fantasy 7, Witcher 3 And Nier Automata. Wouldn't PVP be great in those 3 games for me? Yeap. Will it be balanced and fun and sustainable? Nope.

To quote a poster of what I'm trying to get across.

Like I said people want pvp in Warframe because Warframe is such a great game that the people suggest to REMAKE the game just to have it. That's the testament of peoples love for this game and there's nothing wrong with that, its just not a good idea overall with how the game is set up.

 

But.. if you're one of those people those Loki that likes jumping around to pub stomp "noobs" because you're the top 1 percent of PVP in Warframe. 

 

Have fun doing it with only you in that room or with other people who jumps around non stop where you can't kill each other.

 

Edit: this was a lot longer than I thought o_o

Great post! Really interesting to read your opinions...which are probably the best written I've seen on this subject.

Myself and others have tried repeatedly to say that Warframe just wasn't designed to be a PvP game. You can create PvP modes, but due to the imbalances between different frames and connection issues, due to P2P hosting, its never going to be a good experience.

Sadly I doubt many other PvPers will take the time to read it and understand.

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

2 hours ago, Genesix6 said:

What about this idea that I created myself few days ago

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Falconer777 said:

For sure. In addition, a good PvP mode perfectly solves the problem of “content drought” and gives the option of an “endless endgame”.

You two again?  No means no.

[TheFinalEpic]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

You bring up valid reasons why WF will never have working PvP and why it should simply be forgotten as is.

There is also another reason. PvP development takes away development time from other things aswell as hogging resources. Why should they ever waste resources on not even 1% of the active playerbase? I mean trials already had extremely low attendance with the 2% activity, atleast trials were part of the PvE. Conclave has less than that and needs far more things to work properly, be fair, balanced and rewarding. Like the netcode, which is in an even worse state than most games because we dont have real dedicated servers. And even the dedicated servers available are iffy because they are set up by players, meaning there is no 100% way to know they are good enough to give us a great experience in a match.

I just hope people will realize that WF is simply not a game designed with PvP in mind, making it even harder to balance around it. Just the fact that people throw out things like "DE can just spend xXx on it" makes me think they have no idea or regard for what actually is involved. As I said, get it in your heads that whatever PvP they work on will take away production time and resources from PvE. That simply makes it unjustifiable to dedicate time and people on because the user percentage is too damn low for any form of actual return.

edit: Just to get some form of scope on how hard it is to fix netcode, take a look at BF4. It was designed purely as a PvP game from the ground up, yet it took them nearly a year after release to get the netcode in order. And that was with actual dedicated servers and their own engine being used and perfected. Besides that, the game never got their guns and stuff in balance, even when near real world physics were used for them.

You nailed it pretty hard the point I was trying to get across.

 

58 minutes ago, rand0mname said:

Thank you, OP. Enjoyed the read.

I especially liked the paragraph there you talk about how unfun it is to try to figure out why you died in Conclave.

I know DE likes us to think for ourselves, but staring at my own entrails or studying the jump patterns of PvP gods is a little bit too much for me. I am not an Augur!

^_^ I'm glad that you enjoyed it. And yeah the PVP loop of Warframe isn't exaclty you can describe as great.

 

I like how you compare it to staring at your own entrails or studying jump patterns lmao.

 

36 minutes ago, FlusteredFerret said:

Great post! Really interesting to read your opinions...which are probably the best written I've seen on this subject.

Myself and others have tried repeatedly to say that Warframe just wasn't designed to be a PvP game. You can create PvP modes, but due to the imbalances between different frames and connection issues, due to P2P hosting, its never going to be a good experience.

Sadly I doubt many other PvPers will take the time to read it and understand.

 

Thanks! And its mostly because I "grew" up with League from my teen years into adulthood (15 to 23 years old) and also adding OW to the list that I had a pretty good understanding of the most fundamentals of PVP.

 

And I think the PvPers will read it and understand. They're not stupid or ignorant but I think like I said, they just want more from the game they love by the developer they love and there isn't anything wrong with that. I think its a testament of the current gaming climate, there's plenty of dev and games thats can give and build something similar to what the PVPers are asking but they WANT digital extremes to be ones to do it because if they do it, the PVPers know DE will try their best and bring their best, and thats not something you get out of developers these days.

 

 But  in the end, PVP just not possible to have an enjoyable experience for the majority of people or worth the time and effort by DE.

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[Cuchullin]

11 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

Personally I'd toss normal PVP out of Warframe and call it a day...Conclave players so desperately want it to become a time to kill PVP game and are constantly coming up with ideas about how to make it great for them....   YET  ....anyone who provides any kind of positive alternative to the run of the mill K/D death match...it's always NOPE..Then they get their feeling hurt because PVE players says NOOOOO to anything they suggest, which has been since year one on the forums...

I see where your coming with this while I do get where your coming from your basing it off the either or choice of PvP pro camp or the PvP no camp. Coming from the PvP on the side camp the improvements i would suggest aren't so much for the pro camp as it is for "people who want to do a few conclave matches on the side camp", that is actually interesting to play but is not going to be my main focus. The way I play normally is going to be running missions on the star chat 90 percent of the time. The rest I might feel like dedicating to other stuff like conclave trading, fashion framing or whatever. The way it's set up now though sets the bar too high for people new to conclave or don't dedicating massive amounts of time to the mode.

Edited January 17, 2019 by Cuchullin

[Falconer777]

From our discussions here, by and large, there is not much sense. This is probably the hundredth theme about PvP in Warframe)), and the participants are basically the same, the arguments are the same, and we have already brought them to each other a hundred times. Our opinion has not changed, and it is unlikely to change - PvP players are not against getting a couple of new interesting PvP modes, PvE players hate PvP with all the passion of their soul.
In the end, only DE will decide, and it is unlikely on the basis of this, or any other forum discussion.
If they decide that keeping PvP players in the game and attracting new players by this mode will bring benefits - they will do it.
If they think that it will not bring much profit - they will not do that.
But to categorically write "NO!!", with such a look as if the person is speaking on behalf of the developers themselves - this is ridiculous, honestly)) The latter concerns some participants in the discussion.

[Kontrollo]

Yawn, another one of these, with the usual mix of misinformation and latent hostility. The GD echo chamber just loves to trot it out, right? 😉

 

And I'm saying that as someone who has retired from Conclave ~2 years ago.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

8 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Resume:

Overwatch rank:

(Grand Master 4136)

League of Legends:

https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/year-in-review-2018#/summoner/na/kdaakaliepic

(Diamond V).

[Chaemyerelis]

OW and LOL aren't pvp games.

 

[krc473]

9 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

To quote my friend BreAnna, game experience and prowess translates between games, espicially if they're in the same genre.

I question whether they are the same genre though. The games you are using as examples are not like Warframe. How do you compare it to say Destiny's PvP for example - that is more similar to WF than your example. What about other games that are similar? That is not to say that I completely disagree with your suggestion though. Although, I argue that there is very little that is good about PvP in WF. The points you bring up are some of those, but that has nothing to do with the (poor choices of) examples of other games.

9 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

If you're quoting from the Overwatch picture  thats 16 hours that I'M IN A GAME PLAYING RANK THAT SEASON. 

That was what I was referring to. I am not much of an OW fan, so have barely played it. That stat to me just looked like 16 hours (without any explanation). That is my mistake. I did think just 16 hours seemed a little low.

 

9 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

Or just don't work on it. Yes, this is harsh, but do we really need PvP?
PvP in WF is such a minor part, that it is basically non-existant. And WF is doing fine "without" PvP.

I 100% agree with you. I see no value at all in DE improving PvP. I do not think there is anything they can do now that would make people come back to it in any significant numbers. No, that does not mean I think no extra people would play, just that the number will not justify the investment on DE's side.

• This is a thread about improving PvP. I saw no point in just saying "its pointless, WF does not need it".

[WhiteMarker]

13 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I 100% agree with you. I see no value at all in DE improving PvP. I do not think there is anything they can do now that would make people come back to it in any significant numbers. No, that does not mean I think no extra people would play, just that the number will not justify the investment on DE's side.

• This is a thread about improving PvP. I saw no point in just saying "its pointless, WF does not need it".

Yeah, I assumed so.
Just wanted to say what I said, because someone has to. ^^

I mean, I will always have an eye on the changes to PvP. Maybe it will be fun one day. But as I said, WF is doing great without it.
I like to play other games for other things.
That's why I don't get frustrated over a game. Just take a break and play something else. 

[TARINunit9]

Point number 1 is a really good point. That is something I never considered, even though I played another game where it's believed to be one of the two major causes of death

The game in question is Eternal Crusade. The playerbase just did not have fun trying to take positions guarded by HMGs, insta-kill hover-tanks, and obnoxious jetpack troops. Warframe might not have those problems but it definitely has problems of its own that cause the same result: the way you died just wasn't stimulating. (The OTHER cause of death of Eternal Crusade was being unable to deliver on their initial crowdfunding promises)

[TheFinalEpic]

6 hours ago, Falconer777 said:

From our discussions here, by and large, there is not much sense. This is probably the hundredth theme about PvP in Warframe)), and the participants are basically the same, the arguments are the same, and we have already brought them to each other a hundred times. Our opinion has not changed, and it is unlikely to change - PvP players are not against getting a couple of new interesting PvP modes, PvE players hate PvP with all the passion of their soul.
In the end, only DE will decide, and it is unlikely on the basis of this, or any other forum discussion.
If they decide that keeping PvP players in the game and attracting new players by this mode will bring benefits - they will do it.
If they think that it will not bring much profit - they will not do that.
But to categorically write "NO!!", with such a look as if the person is speaking on behalf of the developers themselves - this is ridiculous, honestly)) The latter concerns some participants in the discussion.

Hey our discussions here are fine. Participants are the same in the pvper supporters make sense and of course your opinions aren't going to change. Your opinions are valid.

Your opinions is that you want new game modes or rebuilding the PVP from the ground up, that is fine. I never said on any of my replies or even my main post that its a bad idea.

 

And in the end DE will decide what they are to do with the game, you are correct, however you say they don't read forum posts and it won't change their views or decisions and I'm going to rebuttal and I'm going to say that forum discussions does affect DE decision. Why do you think YOU are bringing  these topics up of supporting PVP in other threads? In your history you've made a lot of post begging for them to fix PVP or add new modes etc. So what you're doing is trying to get DE's attention in supporting what you believe in so you're contradicting yourself.

 

The point of my post is to explain to the PVPers like you (the tittle address you guys specifically) on why DE won't touch PVP. From how adding new modes won't work and that DE has to remake the entire pvp system by explaining on why pvp doesn't work in Warframe in its current state due to DE's failed attempt importing from PVE to PVP.

 

And that if they want PVP to work, they would have to remake the entire mode from the ground up, not just adding new modes cause that's just adding more wings to a broken plane. This take time and resources. And DE will only do it if there is a positive thing for them to do.

 

Your argument is that it is positive for them to do these things,  that PVP will attract new players.This also a invalid because nobody starts to play Warframe to "hey i want it to play for PVP and its my main focus". It is marketed toward a PVE grinder by media, players alike.

 

You say that if it will not bring much profit, they will not do that. And well.... you answered your own argument with the reality of the situation. The matter of fact is PVP does not bring in players, retain players, or have in anyway to monetize it.  I know you want it but the reality of the current situation is it won't happen.

The point of my post is not to invalid your opinions of what you want in the game, my point of the post is that its not feasible in the current state of the game.

 

4 hours ago, Kontrollo said:

Yawn, another one of these, with the usual mix of misinformation and latent hostility. The GD echo chamber just loves to trot it out, right? 😉

 

And I'm saying that as someone who has retired from Conclave ~2 years ago.

Don't think I have misinformation of I have latent hostility toward any people who want PVP. I respect them a lot and have stated this multiple times in all my replies since they want it because they want it to come from a game they love and a developer they respect and there is nothing wrong with that.

3 hours ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

HEY you should laugh at my mastery rank 26 too in Warframe D:<

 

3 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

OW and LOL aren't pvp games.

 

Warframe isn't a PVE game.

 

2 hours ago, krc473 said:

I question whether they are the same genre though. The games you are using as examples are not like Warframe. How do you compare it to say Destiny's PvP for example - that is more similar to WF than your example. What about other games that are similar? That is not to say that I completely disagree with your suggestion though. Although, I argue that there is very little that is good about PvP in WF. The points you bring up are some of those, but that has nothing to do with the (poor choices of) examples of other games.

That was what I was referring to. I am not much of an OW fan, so have barely played it. That stat to me just looked like 16 hours (without any explanation). That is my mistake. I did think just 16 hours seemed a little low.

 

I 100% agree with you. I see no value at all in DE improving PvP. I do not think there is anything they can do now that would make people come back to it in any significant numbers. No, that does not mean I think no extra people would play, just that the number will not justify the investment on DE's side.

• This is a thread about improving PvP. I saw no point in just saying "its pointless, WF does not need it".

The point of me bringing up OW and League wasn't to focus the game genre it self or how I'm good at these games but rather that I have a good understanding of how these 2 PVP has evolved overtime and what makes them tick. Since I'm the top 1 percent of both games and playing them multiple years I have a good understanding of its mechanics and what makes them good pvp games and what makes them bad pvp games.

 

This thread isn't about improving PVP. No where in my post is there a point to improve PVP. Its the opposite, I said the core base of the game that got ported from the PVE component does not work and cannot be improved upon its current broken state, they would need to be a complete remake of the PVP from the ground up, from rewriting net code, server hosted games, and how each warframe abilities work.

 

1 hour ago, TARINunit9 said:

Point number 1 is a really good point. That is something I never considered, even though I played another game where it's believed to be one of the two major causes of death

The game in question is Eternal Crusade. The playerbase just did not have fun trying to take positions guarded by HMGs, insta-kill hover-tanks, and obnoxious jetpack troops. Warframe might not have those problems but it definitely has problems of its own that cause the same result: the way you died just wasn't stimulating. (The OTHER cause of death of Eternal Crusade was being unable to deliver on their initial crowdfunding promises)

Even in the early multiplayer pvp games had this right, random example: Halo combat evolved, when you die your body rag dolls to whatever is killing you, with also multiple visual and sound que with how you die with all the bullets, you know where there coming from the rocket path, sniper rifle smoke or the lasers going toward you or the flash of the weapon. Warframe has none of these visual or sound ques.

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[Chaemyerelis]

12 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Hey our discussions here are fine. Participants are the same in the pvper supporters make sense and of course your opinions aren't going to change. Your opinions are valid.

Your opinions is that you want new game modes or rebuilding the PVP from the ground up, that is fine. I never said on any of my replies or even my main post that its a bad idea.

 

And in the end DE will decide while and I'm going to say that forum discussion does affect DE decision. You say they don't read forum post and it won't change their views or decisions but they do read the forum post. Why do you think YOU are bringing  these topics up of supporting PVP in other threads? In your history you've made a lot of post begging for them to fix PVP or add new modes etc. So what you're doing is trying to get DE's attention in supporting what you believe in so you're contradicting yourself.

 

The point of my post is to explain to the PVPers like you, why DE won't touch PVP by adding new modes or remake the entire game by explaining on why PVP doesn't work in Warframe in its current state and why DE's attempt failed with its current systems of importing game from PVE to PVP.

And that if they want PVP to work, they would have to remake the entire mode from the ground up, not just adding new modes cause that's just adding more wings to a broken plane. And that is not something that will not work and this take time and resources.

Your argument that PVP will attract new players by this mode is also a invalid because nobody starts to play Warframe to "hey i want it to play for PVP and its my main focus". It is marketed toward a PVE grinder by media, players alike.

 

You say that if it will not bring much profit, they will not do that. And well.... you answered your own argument with the reality of the situation. The matter of fact is PVP does not bring in players, retain players, or have in anyway to monetize it.  I know you want it but the reality is it won't happen.

 

Don't think I have misinformation of I have latent hostility toward any people who want PVP. I respect them a lot and have stated this multiple times in all my replies since they want it because they want it to come from a game they love and a developer they respect and there is nothing wrong with that.

HEY you should laugh at my mastery rank 26 too in Warframe D:<

 

Warframe isn't a PVE game.

 

The point of me bringing up OW and League wasn't to focus the game genre it self or how I'm good at these games but rather that I have a good understanding of how these 2 PVP has evolved overtime and what makes them tick. Since I'm the top 1 percent of both games and playing them multiple years I have a good understanding of its mechanics and what makes them good pvp games and what makes them bad pvp games.

 

This thread isn't about improving PVP. No where in my post is there a point to improve PVP. Its the opposite, I said the core base of the game that got ported from the PVE component does not work and cannot be improved upon its current broken state, they would need to be a complete remake of the PVP from the ground up, from rewriting net code, server hosted games, and how each warframe abilities work.

 

Even in the early multiplayer pvp games had this right, random example: Halo combat evolved, when you die your body rag dolls to whatever is killing you, with also multiple visual and sound que with how you die with all the bullets, you know where there coming from the rocket path, sniper rifle smoke or the lasers going toward you or the flash of the weapon. Warframe has none of these visual or sound ques.

Man some people think they know everything its almost infuriating. Your two games aren't PVP based games that's like saying you know PVP because you played Quake or Call of duty. 

The games you mentioned are multiplayer battle arena based games who have a sole focus. Just because you fight other players doesn't make a game PVP. PVP games are games with more than one focus to them like an MMO with PVP.

[TheFinalEpic]

11 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Man some people think they know everything its almost infuriating. Your two games aren't PVP based games that's like saying you know PVP because you played Quake or Call of duty. 

The games you mentioned are multiplayer battle arena based games who have a sole focus. Just because you fight other players doesn't make a game PVP. PVP games are games with more than one focus to them like an MMO with PVP. 

I wouldn't say I know everything, and if you don't think League of Legends and Overwatch aren't pvp based games then that is also fine. In the end my post is an opinion that can be agreed upon and disagreed upon.

 

The only fact is that PVP in Warframe is not played by many people as stated by numerous release of numbers by DE and I was just trying, with my own opinion and experience, to explain why that is the case and why it won't be worked on further.

You say PVP games are more than one focus with MMO with PVP.

But Warframe is an MMO shooter, DE has stated multiple times that was Warframes original design since its inception and has been built upon ever since was for it to be a MMO shooter. If you add PVP to Warframe...then it is an MMO shooting PVP.

But I'm sorry that I have upset you enough for you to type your last sentence. That was not the intention of showing my rank in those 2 games and I apologize.

 

 

[Kontrollo]

2 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Don't think I have misinformation of I have latent hostility toward any people who want PVP. I respect them a lot and have stated this multiple times in all my replies since they want it because they want it to come from a game they love and a developer they respect and there is nothing wrong with that. 

Oh it's not just you. I usually don't like doing selective quoting, but I'm making an exception here:

10 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

1) But not just that, due to Warframe being a host based game, everybody has a disadvantage except the host.

...

2) There is a reason why when PVP released nobody picked it up, Warframe itself wasn't designed to be one. Its code, its connection, its abilities, it's stats, its warframes is just not built to handle deliver a satisfying a PVP experience and they have learned from it, it's why only 0.5 percent of player base is active in PVP at any given time and will stay that way. 

1) Two. Years. And this gets still repeated all over the place and taken as gospel. I've responded to that in a previous thread, so have a look here, here, and finally here (and note the date).

 

2)

• PvP got released several times, so what are you referring to? Anyway, to me it looks like the current implementation was mostly left untouched since back when I left. Both in gameplay and rewards, and yet there are still people playing it. You know what would happen if there were no additional PvE content in 2 years, right?
• 0.5 percent is just another number pulled of our asses, because no one has ever seen any good ones, me included. The 2 year old chart is brought up lot, too. Which is kind of funny, because it's not even properly labelled; to me it looks a lot like it's counting the sessions, and not total playtime (hint: a round of Annihilation is 15 minutes IIRC and if it hasn't changed).
• And even if that were true, it might still be proportional to the devs' time investment on this game mode. The maps are done, the game modes are done. The most effort they have to put into it is coming up with toned down abilities, and adjusting the odd weapon which needs special tweaks. I know for a fact that weapon damage is a multiplier on the PvE stats.
• Besides, Conclave has always been a side show, just like Archwing. Back when, it sometimes felt like people were afraid they were getting the short end of the stick when another round of weapons got their damage numbers adjusted. There's a word for that kind of reaction: hysterical.

 

 

2 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

... of I have latent hostility toward any people who want PVP. ..

I did not say latent hostility against people. I meant in general. I mean sure, you may like it or not, it's not everyone's cup of tea. But just have a look at the posts and reactions in this thread. See quotes below:

11 hours ago, spyroxion said:

11 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

I left and didn't reque, then 3 minutes later and he whispered me, "gg noob, get good". Now, after that, THEN i was salty. And I got off.

And that is why PvP is not welcome in this game.

For god's sake people, report those guys and hope they get a chat ban. No one wants to deal with those, especially not the Conclave regulars. Speaking from experience here.

10 hours ago, TheFinalEpic said:

I never wanted PVP in Warframe hehe. I was addressing people who do want it and saying its just not possible 

And these are your words. By the way, we had pretty good balance back when I played it. Can't talk about how things currently stand, though.

 

Do I need to go on? Another thing maybe: Whenever one of these threads gets going, it feels like an "us versus them" black and white thing. God forbid that there are people who actually enjoy playing both PvE and PvP in one and the same game.

 

And last but not least, some random Youtube guy's opinion. I went and looked for someone with a more neutral standpoint. (Don't know, and i don't particularly care about Lunaro, either.)

Spoiler

 

Maybe it's the general attitude in here that prevents people from giving it another chance? Food for thought.

[DrBorris]

Okay, one issue, you seem to have based most of this post off of an assumption that isn't exactly correct.

 

You assume that PvP means that it must have players shooting and killing other players directly. "Player versus Player" does not mean this inherently, for example Civilization can be a PvP game.

I agree that shooting other players does not work for Warframe PvP, however I think that there are some very interesting routes that could be taken with PvEvP (which is a subsection of PvP).

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

1 hour ago, TheFinalEpic said:

 

HEY you should laugh at my mastery rank 26 too in Warframe D:<

[TheFinalEpic]

25 minutes ago, DrBorris said:

Okay, one issue, you seem to have based most of this post off of an assumption that isn't exactly correct.

 

You assume that PvP means that it must have players shooting and killing other players directly. "Player versus Player" does not mean this inherently, for example Civilization can be a PvP game.

I agree that shooting other players does not work for Warframe PvP, however I think that there are some very interesting routes that could be taken with PvEvP (which is a subsection of PvP).

Earlier in the thread I whole heartily approved of having 2 teams fighting against each other but by PVE means. Like killing more enemies than the other or some sort of that. I was never against it, but I suppose I shoudla specified that PVP where we shoot each other and kill each other won't work. That's my bad.

 

26 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Oh it's not just you. I usually don't like doing selective quoting, but I'm making an exception here:

1) Two. Years. And this gets still repeated all over the place and taken as gospel. I've responded to that in a previous thread, so have a look here, here, and finally here (and note the date).

 

2)

• PvP got released several times, so what are you referring to? Anyway, to me it looks like the current implementation was mostly left untouched since back when I left. Both in gameplay and rewards, and yet there are still people playing it. You know what would happen if there were no additional PvE content in 2 years, right?
• 0.5 percent is just another number pulled of our asses, because no one has ever seen any good ones, me included. The 2 year old chart is brought up lot, too. Which is kind of funny, because it's not even properly labelled; to me it looks a lot like it's counting the sessions, and not total playtime (hint: a round of Annihilation is 15 minutes IIRC and if it hasn't changed).
• And even if that were true, it might still be proportional to the devs' time investment on this game mode. The maps are done, the game modes are done. The most effort they have to put into it is coming up with toned down abilities, and adjusting the odd weapon which needs special tweaks. I know for a fact that weapon damage is a multiplier on the PvE stats.
• Besides, Conclave has always been a side show, just like Archwing. Back when, it sometimes felt like people were afraid they were getting the short end of the stick when another round of weapons got their damage numbers adjusted. There's a word for that kind of reaction: hysterical.

 

 

I did not say latent hostility against people. I meant in general. I mean sure, you may like it or not, it's not everyone's cup of tea. But just have a look at the posts and reactions in this thread. See quotes below:

For god's sake people, report those guys and hope they get a chat ban. No one wants to deal with those, especially not the Conclave regulars. Speaking from experience here.

 

And these are your words. By the way, we had pretty good balance back when I played it. Can't talk about how things currently stand, though.

 

Do I need to go on? Another thing maybe: Whenever one of these threads gets going, it feels like an "us versus them" black and white thing. God forbid that there are people who actually enjoy playing both PvE and PvP in one and the same game.

 

And last but not least, some random Youtube guy's opinion. I went and looked for someone with a more neutral standpoint. (Don't know, and i don't particularly care about Lunaro, either.)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Maybe it's the general attitude in here that prevents people from giving it another chance? Food for thought.

PVP got released multiple times with many iterations yet , as I stated in my post, that the Meta and the way to win the game is still the same and that is a huge issue, there was not growth or change. It's fine to have a meta that doesn't change for many years IF its a good meta, but Warframe's PVP meta is not.

As for the statistic itself, I do agree with its pulling it out of other forum posts and my own experience that happened last night due to... well that I'm in a que for roughly 1-2 hours and it's just me and this other guy on a Friday night when I live in the US (california specifically) There is something to a testament to a sustainable player base.

 

I indeed said I never wanted PVP in the game, and none of my replies however said its never a bad thing in the game. I'm just saying that in the current state, PVP is very bad. I've repeated it a lot but I'm fine with people loving PVP and wanting more of it in the game and I respect that a lot. But when they ask DE to add new modes or remake it, then this post is it, its to say how thats not feasible.

 

And people will always do the black and white, us vs them, I can't stop it, you can't stop it. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by TheFinalEpic

[TheFinalEpic]

5 minutes ago, Fluff-E-Kitty said:

There ya go ❤️

[Kontrollo]

3 minutes ago, TheFinalEpic said:

Earlier in the thread I whole heartily approved of having 2 teams fighting against each other but by PVE means. Like killing more enemies than the other or some sort of that. I was never against it, but I suppose I shoudla specified that PVP where we shoot each other and kill each other won't work. That's my bad.

 

PVP got released multiple times with many iterations yet I, as I stated in my post, that the Meta and the way to win the game is still the same and that is a huge issue, there was not growth or change. It's fine to have a meta that doesn't change for many years IF its a good meta, but Warframe's PVP is not.

As for the statistic itself, I do agree with its pulling it out of other forum posts and my own experience that happened last night due that... well when I'm in a que for roughly 1-2 hours and it's just me and this other guy on a Friday night when I live in the US (california specifically) There is something to a testament to a sustainable player base.

 

I indeed said I never wanted PVP in the game, and none of my replies however said its never a bad thing in the game. I'm just saying that in the current state, PVP is very bad. I've repeated it a lot but I'm fine with people loving PVP and wanting more of it in the game and I respect that a lot. But when they ask DE to add new modes or remake it, then this post is it, its to say how thats not feasible.

 

And people will always do the black and white, us vs them, I can't stop it, you can't stop it. 

Mh, I don't doubt that it has player problems now, a look into the Conclave subforum is all it takes. But from the looks of it has been neglected for a while -- a point which you conveniently didn't address -- so that's not a surprise, really. Again, what would happen without any substantial addition to PvE in two years? Let's be honest here, in a nutshell the game is a sand- and skinner box.

 

Balance was pretty good back when I played it. If it weren't I wouldn't have played it for as long as I did (I got tired of the bullS#&amp;&#036; that was Solar Rails quite fast before that). So yes, I'm counting the "it's not possible to have good PvP in Warframe" as much towards the spreading of misinformation as the host advantage stuff.

 

Here are some of what I feel were the real problems:

• Skill gap. Unless you're a natural talent, you can't compete with the regulars. You need to train your muscle memory because it has a very fast-paced arena shooter style gameplay. I don't play Overwatch, but comparing it to that game feels a bit dishonest to me when I look at the speed in the footage.
  • That would be fine if people were actually grouped by skill level. They aren't, and Recruit Conditioning was a joke.
  • It goes both ways, by the way. It's boring to just stomp newcomers, and the really good players didn't have a great time against me either, as I wasn't that much of a challenge.
• Host migrations and host advantage were a thing for a long time, admittedly, but the game quality improved a lot when they introduced dedicated servers. (Two. Years. ago.)
• No one wants to sit in a lobby for several minutes where you can't do anything but wait. That's especially bad when the game decides to put you in a session where you're the only one with the best connection. Was really bad when dedicated servers first got introduced, because random people wanted to be on top of that dumb hosting leaderboard.
• A lot of people don't actually want to be ninjas and use the mobility they're given, except to sidestep the content and rush to extraction, it seems. That's fine, of course, but only if you don't then go and want to make the Conclave into another Call of Duty or whatever.
• Some people came into the mode thinking Conclave standing was another thing they had to farm, and tried to game the system for it. Or worse, felt entitled to the rewards without actually playing it. Believe me when I say that was not a fun experience for either side.
• Rewards aren't great, never have been. Shouldn't be too good because of the previous point, attracts the wrong kind of crowd. But they could be better, so it doesn't feel like a waste of time. Would you play PvP at the risk of falling completely behind on all the stuff that PvE wants us to collect?

 

Now compare these points with the average post in this and other similar threads and tell me how much good it did in the grand scheme of things to start yet another topic with the same tired old tropes?

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, Chaemyerelis said:

Man some people think they know everything its almost infuriating. Your two games aren't PVP based games that's like saying you know PVP because you played Quake or Call of duty. 

The games you mentioned are multiplayer battle arena based games who have a sole focus. Just because you fight other players doesn't make a game PVP. PVP games are games with more than one focus to them like an MMO with PVP. So please take your garbage credentials and just stop typing, its really embarrassing. 

PvP simply means Player versus Player which is exactly what both those games are about.

Saying those arent PvP games is like saying battlegrounds in MMOs are not PvP because they are essentially just arena battles. All games that involve Player versus Player are PvP games, especially those that only have Player versus Player modes.

The two in question are simply small scale PvP games while something like Arma or BF are large scale and DaoC, GW2 and WaR were/are mass scale PvP games. WoW ends up somewhere in between all of them because it has the options anywhere from arenas up to open world pvp scrappings.

You just cant change the simple meaning of a term because it doesnt fit you. PvP is just Player vs Player, all competative games where two players are activley playing against eachother are effectivly that, PvP.

And the arena shooter idea of PvP is the most accurate to describe what type of PvP we could possibly have in WF and it is pretty much that small scale we already have. But hey, wait a minute. In your mind conclave isnt PvP then because it is a small scale arena?

Oh and yes, Quake and CoD are indeed PvP games because players are fighting other players.

[Kontrollo]

One more thing before I'm done for today: this was linked in one of the other threads. Play it and tell me with a straight face it isn't downright awesome to watch:

 

Spoiler

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Overwatch has a very serious skill ceiling.

Regarding the dedicated servers, they only last as long as the players have interest in hosting. They arent real dedicated servers like those you find in Overwatch (hosted by Blizzard themself) or in Battlefield, CoD or a game such as DayZ, where clans actually rent real dedicated servers that are professionally maintained. Warframe just has a dedicated server setup, but it is still hosted by players on a dedicated machine. Latency issues and other wonkyness will still exsist since I'm fairly certain it is still based around Peer-to-Peer, it is just that the host isnt running a mission while hosting, the machine simply works as a server.

I said in the other thread: I think some people have professional-grade equipment. It was the case back when, it probably still is. Dedicated servers only have to host 8 people here.

See how we went from having no dedicated servers to having no good dedicated servers?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/special-pleading

Edit: or is that a No True Scotsman? Take your pick.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Kontrollo
added the quote/reply, can't be bothered for another separate post