Returning raids

[OH_GOD_NOTTHISGUY]

Last devstream DE said that raids will soon be making a comeback.

I wonder if they meant that new raids will coming to the game 

Or

Will they be just polishing up LOR and jordas precept..?

[Shadow-Spawn]

I really hope that DE will take their raids very seriously - not just polishing old content - but really make some new great epic raids done absolute perfectly.

That way players will still find it a totally awesome experience to do after their 50th. successful run-through.

It takes a lot of development time and effort to really pull it off - but it's worth it - if they succeed. 😉

Edited January 13, 2019 by Shadow-Spawn

[Blatantfool]

Hopefully they return with more in lieu of actual mechanics. The original raids, for as neat as they were, where practically "Stand on button" tests.

 'Raid content' is just about the only thing I'd look at Warframe and say it could learn from Destiny on.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Blatantfool

[ant99999]

Even if they won't bring LoR and JV as raids, what will be the worst is to let these missions be forgotten. Just as well as events, these raids (especially JV) had some important facts regarding lore inside them. At least they should be brought back as end game quests (of course reworked to be solo-able).

[JustTheDazz]

I really miss the raids, hopefully they bring them back soon 🙂

[Shadow-Spawn]

5 hours ago, Blatantfool said:

Hopefully they return with more in lieu of actual mechanics. The original raids, for as neat as they were, where practically "Stand on button" tests.

 'Raid content' is just about the only thing I'd look at Warframe and say it could learn from Destiny on.

I have only been playing Warframe for around the last 6 months, so I never had the opportunity to play the old raids, that have since been removed from the game.

However I used to run daily raids as a Guild Master in SWTOR with guild members or just random players with great joy.

Yes that's exactly correct - DE should really take notice of what other game producers have made with their most successful raid content.

 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

We need improved connection stability before we get back into raids, or DE are simply going to repeat history.

[Marekthejester]

Il y a 7 heures, OH_GOD_NOTTHISGUY a dit :

Last devstream DE said that raids will soon be making a comeback.

Please don't give people unrealistic expectations. DE never said Raids were coming back soon, they said they wanted to work on it but they still need to find someone who is both available and willing to work on it. 

So basically, Raids definitely are coming back but their rework is progressing at baby steps for now. 

Also i feel the need to remember why raids were taken down. Raids were not just played by pretty much noone. The main problem was raids were bugged and needed a lot of effort and time to keep them stable. Even worse, raids code was tangled with regular game code meaning, fix toward the raids could break the game and vice versa. In the end, raids required a lots of effort to maintain for a very small portion of players, slowing down development of other parts of the game.

[SneakyErvin]

I just hope they come to their senses and ditch the idea as a whole.

It didnt work the first time and it wont work the second either. Other games have been through the same crap when raids have been made just to make it more "MMO". It ends up as a time and resource waste that could be better spent elsewhere.

Since raids is a game mode that will need constant attention it just isnt worthwhile or justifiable to spend resources on it when only a fraction of the playerbase actually plays it. This isnt like defection that barely anyone uses, defection was a one time implementation with very little maintenance needed.

They're better of focusing on creating some really cool boss fights and make specific "dungeon" tiles for those, small group encounters that are about killing the bad guys. Raids are cool and all in games designed with raids in mind, just like PvP. When either of those become an afterthought it usually ends badly by releasing unpolished, unbalanced S#&$ that no one wants to play.

[ZesiMuerte]

I am hoping raids will be something that requires coordinations between squadmates and not just bullet sponges.

It should be something that cannot be solo-ed even if you tried.

[(PSN)Zero_029]

If they do bring back the originals.

I hope that they are redesigned enough to honor the old version, but reworked to where they fit Warframe's action/adventure & chaotic nature.

I'd say a good balance between puzzle & action. Destiny 1 had a good balance between puzzles & boss fights.

Ideally how the puzzles were the "connector" rooms. You solved a puzzle, then battled a boss. It was & still is a good balance.

If they chose to make brand new ones then I hope they have interactive boss fights with mechanics that fit the action packed, fast paced nature of combat in Warframe but with the epic scale & spectacle that Eidolons & Orb Mothers added to it.

However & I see many disagreeing with me here. But one aspect I enjoy about Warframe is its approachability.

I'd like the Raids to scale to have versions.

Normal (1-2), Hard (4-8), & Extreme (8)

This way multiple people can experience the raids. Which will allow that type of content to gain a larger demographic.

Obviously the harder difficulties should have new boss mechanics, perhaps an extra boss or 2, &  most importantly reward better & more plentiful loot.

[Shadow-Spawn]

If raids are done correctly DE can take Warframe from 7.5/10 to 11!
But it's no small undertaking - it requires a lot of skill, time and effort.
Personally I would consider it as some of the best kind of endgame imaginable.

I used to run countless of raids in Star Wars: The Old Republic as a Guild Master or just with completely random players.
It keeps players engaged by doing the daily or weekly raids with their guild members and it evolves their skill set and play style.

Tactics are explained at each boss fight for newbies - but it's still expected that the raid group will wipe again and again - as it's just a natural part of the learning curve.

The 8 or 16 man raid group consists of Tanks, Healers and Damage dealers.
Tanks keeps the boss focused on them and takes the blunt of the force - healers heals the team and damage dealers dps burn the boss.

The group must kill the boss before the enrage timer runs out - or it will deal massive damage killing the team.
There are usually around 4 bosses in one raid and it usually takes more than one hour to complete it.

There are 3 types of raids with 3 levels of difficulty with somewhat changed mechanics.
The easiest are story mode raids where most of the players can complete it without any problems.
The next difficulty is called hard mode raids where most of the players will struggle to complete it.
The highest difficulty is called nightmare mode raids where even the best raid players will get killed by making the smallest mistake, but it's still doable. 

How to make Warframe raids a real success?
The raids must come with some epic story and epic scenery combined with some epic cinematic cutscenes, plus the epic boss fights must be fun and challenging to do. The loot must be so awesome - that it's still worth doing after your 50th time - and teaming up for a raid group must be quick and smooth. The raids should come with different levels of difficulty and technically be close to bug free with stable connections and acceptable fps. It's not a small undertaking, but it's very much worth it - if DE proves successful.

[csaszar]

Warframe is uniqe among all other games because of the "horde shooter/killer" basic playstyle.

If someone wants almost undefeatable bosses or bloody frustration then go and play dark souls for example. If you want to play an mmo then go and play an mmo.

The current bossfights are nothing more than pale copies from other games. WF doesnt need more badly implemented copied content. WF would need to strengthen its core gameplay: kill wave per wave stronger hordes of enemies as efficiently as possible. No Venus spider boss joke no eidolon thingy no melee 3.0 nerf could take place of the core gameplay or the whole wxpwrience would suffer.

Solve the problems of the game then bring content for the main gameplay. 

[SilentMobius]

19 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

I just hope they come to their senses and ditch the idea as a whole.

^ This. Forced Teaming Content is just plain bad for the game, it just ends up with "social PvP" where groups end up self-policing to maximize return of the social investment, leading to elitism and exclusion.

Just like it does everywhere else that tries it.

You want long up-to-8 player missions with interesting rewards? Fine, you want to make them more fun in a team, fine. But just like the rest of the game if you want to approach the content on your own you should be able to.

 

[SneakyErvin]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:

If they do bring back the originals.

I hope that they are redesigned enough to honor the old version, but reworked to where they fit Warframe's action/adventure & chaotic nature.

I'd say a good balance between puzzle & action. Destiny 1 had a good balance between puzzles & boss fights.

Ideally how the puzzles were the "connector" rooms. You solved a puzzle, then battled a boss. It was & still is a good balance.

If they chose to make brand new ones then I hope they have interactive boss fights with mechanics that fit the action packed, fast paced nature of combat in Warframe but with the epic scale & spectacle that Eidolons & Orb Mothers added to it.

However & I see many disagreeing with me here. But one aspect I enjoy about Warframe is its approachability.

I'd like the Raids to scale to have versions.

Normal (1-2), Hard (4-8), & Extreme (8)

This way multiple people can experience the raids. Which will allow that type of content to gain a larger demographic.

Obviously the harder difficulties should have new boss mechanics, perhaps an extra boss or 2, &  most importantly reward better & more plentiful loot.

Other similar games have already tried it, one of them was even an MMO to begin with, but raids never worked well in the setting. Attendance was so low that there was never any point going forward with them after raid two was released. It actually got to the point where those decisions to make raids ended up killing the game slowly, because the content people actually liked in the game was put on hold for far too long. 6 months or so before it got shut down the devs had plans to rework the raids into 5 mans instead of 10 mans, not even that was recieved well by the community because forced group content wasnt what people were looking for in an arpg. After that it was just a massive wall of silence, then the next time the devs spoke about something it was regarding the shut down at the end of the year.

And they had the exact same idea, release an "entry" version of the raid that everyone could take part in and thenadd harder versions over time with new mechanics.

[Radagosh]

vor 23 Minuten schrieb SilentMobius:

You want long up-to-8 player missions with interesting rewards? Fine, you want to make them more fun in a team, fine. But just like the rest of the game if you want to approach the content on your own you should be able to. 

 

1

Agree to disagree, in my opinion, there should be a part of the game that you cannot solo. The raids, as problematic as they were (and with they I mean JV), raised a community. Sure it was not the biggest part of the player base that participated, but for most people in my friend list, it was the only reason to login and play the game.

I believe this "forced teamplay" is the thing I miss most about raids, no matter your gear, no matter how often you've run this, you're only as strong as your weakest link, which resulted in raid circles that only recruited mr22+(recruitment chat) and one of the most helpful discord servers ever. And depending on which circle you've experienced you'll have a very reasonable opinion on raids. Either that they're boring button-stand-simulators or that they're fun ways to meme around with people from all over the world.

This right here is where I see the downfall of raids, elitism vs. recuritment sources outside of the game, a problem which will surely come up again and lead to the same problems in new raids that old ones faced. So yeah, DE if you read this, you should think about a tutorial version, maybe tied to a questline, which introduces players to different mechanics and teaches us how to raid, instead of just releasing another key mission, where you have to assemble 7 different people from recruitment chat.

[S.Dust]

No point in bringing anything back without viable rewards.

[SilentMobius]

On 2019-01-14 at 1:37 PM, Radagosh said:

Agree to disagree, in my opinion, there should be a part of the game that you cannot solo

Then we don't agree, I will fight this opinion wherever it appears. I've seen too many games ruined by this nonsense and I will not let it happen to Warframe.

I will complain loudly, play dirty, whatever is needed. As far as this game is concerned this is a red line for me.

[(PSN)Double991]

There's a massive amount of solo content in this game. Fighting against missions that need co-op only holds back progress. The raids were already in the game before and they did fine. The real reason they were removed was to push Eidolons and casualize arcane acquisition. It definitely worked in dropping Energize prices by 30-60%.

When it comes to tougher content that actually requires you to use your knowledge of game mechanics, certain players get weeded out because they were coasting by up until that point. You still see this in the Eidolons where some players choose to be clueless and then wonder why everyone has left their squad.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

The raids were already in the game before and they did fine

The participation rates tell a different story.

[(PSN)Double991]

5 hours ago, Pr1A said:

The participation rates tell a different story.

*Conclave still exists with similar participation rates*

This topic and all of the outcry to return raids wouldn't exist if there wasn't a demand for them. Taking them out of the game only increased that demand. (Maybe that was DE's plan all along)

As players get better, they want more end game activities or else they get bored and declare there's nothing to do.

Edited January 16, 2019 by (PS4)Double991

[(PSN)Tactless_Ninja]

Hope they refocus onto nonstop action. Raids were a whole lot of nothing but exploits when it came down to it. And Destiny should NOT be used as an example of good design for raids. Wiping repeatedly for hours over a single hiccup was never fun. 

Oh and rewards could be legendary items. We only have legendary cores. Expand it DE.

[EmberStar]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Double991 said:

*Conclave still exists with similar participation rates*

This topic and all of the outcry to return raids wouldn't exist if there wasn't a demand for them. Taking them out of the game only increased that demand. (Maybe that was DE's plan all along)

As players get better, they want more end game activities or else they get bored and declare there's nothing to do.

Conclave doesn't break every time they patch the game.  It has low participation, but it's close to zero effort to maintain most of the time.  It's just sort of... there.  Raids were complex, fiddly, and broke if someone sneezed in a neighboring building.  And "all the outcry" on the forums could still be less than a thousand really vocal people.  Out of a registered player count of tens of millions.

It's partly the same issue as with the "Make more PVP" topics:  There are already other games that do it way better.  People who *just* want Raid type content already have other games to supply their demand.  (Just like people who want serious PVP have a lot of other choices.)  People who are invested in raiding or PVP in WoW or Fortnite aren't going to switch to Warframe.  They're already invested in their game of choice.  The *existing* Warframe playerbase seems to mostly ignore Raids *and* PVP based on any numbers the devs have chosen to share.  Trying to make a big PVP or Raid based update is still potentially wasted resources even if the mode is awesome.  Because the audience that would be most willing to play it is already invested in other games, and the audience that's already here seems to not really be interested.

Personally, I'd like to see the devs do better with content that they already have before they spend time making Raids again.  For example, I'd *love* to see them find a way to make content "challenging" without heavy reliance on Invulnerability phases and Knockback/Stagger spam.  Fighting Profit-Taker only takes a few minutes, and I still hate doing it.  Because the way the fight and the garbage mobs are set up, you're really limited to a choice of two or three Warframes.  You need to be able to ignore the CONSTANT knockback and stagger spam, and you need something with enough damage reduction to not die every time Profit-Taker stomps on you.  Reloading, movement, even dodge rolling (not to mention trying to summon the Archwing guns) can all be interrupted by the constant stagger spam.  Every time I need to reload my primary weapon I have to stop first and kill the conga line of Corpus Trenchers following me around.

I want to see DE get giant monster and boss fights to the point where they're *fun* before they start making Raids again.

[Loza03]

My two cents:

Raid content should focus on dividing player attention and subverting the Meta by making it difficult to impossible for one person to be adequately prepared for. Individual phases of a mission should have multiple disparate objectives that require different kinds of attention - damage, point defence, and area defence. For example, a regular defence and an interception that must both be run at once, the rooms connected by a maze of corridors where powerful raid-exclusive enemies that are either immune to AoE damage abilities or hard Crowd Control (but not both) can show up in in certain locations from said corridors. And possibly a Fortuna-esque mini-boss that isn't necessarily tough by itself, but draw a lot more attention that other enemies can exploit by dealing with the objective.

This alone would require frames set up for defence of a single location, mobile frames, frames good at picking up and moving defensive positions quickly, AoE damage for regular enemies and burst damage for the occasional tank that shows up.

Other thoughts for other phases could be a single objective that must be held whilst side-objectives that, if not held, make the mission more difficult somehow - like controlling enemy spawns, mitigating hazards in the main area or limiting the number of locations enemies can approach from. Over time the primary objective becomes harder to maintain, again due in part to enemies resistant to a certain part of the meta spawning - possibly alongside other enemies either raid-exclusive or not usually occurring alongside the enemies showing up. For example, for Corpus, it's regular Crewmen but Trenchers can show up. This forces players to have to juggle the primary and secondary objectives as more attention is required to protect the mission-critical objective, but failing to protect the non-critical ones further exacerbates the problems.

That'd certainly keep the action going.

[Furybone]

10 hours ago, Pr1A said:

The participation rates tell a different story.

This is because no one enjoyed BATTLE PUZZLES.

8 player content is fine. But the old trials were the same thing every time. "Solve this puzzle while being shot at" Which ended up with "Lets just have a really long range mirage blind the whole map" and then it became trivial content that simply was not fun.

the jordas raid was an improvement but still had the BATTLE PUZZLE meta. once again we were trying to solve puzzles while getting shot at but this time we need VAPE JUICE. so you had to kill things.

 

Im all for more interesting missions with multiple segments and even more players than just 4. If they found a way to make it enjoyable, great. if its so-so, then it better have new and interesting things in it.