What is up with this sudden need for a Chroma rework?

[deothor]

People were mentioning chroma rework for a long time. Have in mind rework =/= buff.

His 1 is totally useless

His 2 and 3 are stupidly strong for engame... untill mobs instakill you with a fart

His 4 allows for easy semi-afk low-mid level defense, but has little use anywhere else

 

Overall I really enjoy chroma, especially his dragon form, but I don't see any reason why I should play him outside maybe eidolons or semi-afk defense.

[EiriMatsu]

13 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Another type of post that I saw times. And again. I don't get it.

Apparently one of the argument for his rework is that players only use him for his 2nd and 3rd abilities.

And? I mean a lot frames are used for two of their abilities usually. There is Loki, Zephyr, Vauban, Rhino, Equinox, Mesa, Excalibur, Valkyr.

Rhino players sometimes use his 4th but mostly I see players use only the 2nd and 3rd abilities. And also these two frames are constantly compared and I saw ppl referring to Chroma as "Rhino 2.0". Which is fair enough considering that in a way they are sameish.

Also these same ppl put a big emphasis on his 1st and 4th ability. Some says that the 1st should be totally swapped out for something else cause? Can't remember only few frames that have actually useful 1st abilities.

I think he's fine. Not the most interesting or fun but I can't really see why he would need a rework.

Going through in order:

• Loki: His 1 is a great temporary distraction for stuff like synthesis scans and hacking, his 2 is core.  I'll accept the argument of his 3 because it can be a griefing ability.  His 4 is fantastic in the right game modes.
• Zephyr: Only people who don't know how to use Zephyr use her for 2 abilities.  Her 1 is spectacular in Plains/Fortuna and Void missions (though questionable elsewhere, I'll admit, if you don't run non-Duration builds).  Her 2 augments her 4, so people not using it either don't understand the mechanic or...don't player her well, I guess.  3 is obviously her core ability, and 4 provides pretty good cc without any need for strength.
• Vauban: Vauban is univerally considered one of the worst frames in the game, even by people who main him.
• Rhino: In meta play, sure.  However, as easily one of the frames I see the most, I can seen all of his abilities (including his passive) utilized regularly.  A lot of people who play him for his 1 and 4 get irritated fast when people expect him to be running buff build.
• Valkyr: I have no idea which ability anyone would consider useless.  All of her abilities are good, though admittedly she can be played just utilizing Eternal War and Hysteria quite easily.  As a non-meta frame now atm, though, I refuse to consider her a frame with only 2 useful abilities.
• Equinox: Personally, I use the 2, 3, and 4 on Day form a lot.  I don't really use night form, but then again, I don't really play Equinox.
• Mesa: Excuse me?  I'll recognize that her 1 is a strange feeling ability, but who doesn't use 2 and 3 (obviously people use her 4).  That's 3/4 abilities.
• Excalibur: No argument here.  I honestly only use his 4 when I actually play him, though I primarily just use Umbra for a change of pace, usually letting him do his thing.

Chroma is a very strange case that is essentially summarized by imagining a weird mix of Vauban and Rhino.  First, Chroma suffers from Vauban's problems of having two abilities with either no use or very conditional use.  His 1 is pointless.  Anything it can do, Ignis can do better (don't even need the Wraith).  Compare it to any other ability in the game that prevents usage of weapons; it's insanely weak.  His 4 is usable, especially as a specialized, star chart Defense and Interception cheese ability.  Of course, there's also its current function as a money doubler for Profit Taker.  For any remotely high level play, however, its damage potential is incredibly low when weighed with the armor loss from its use, and the energy costs are fairly high.

Secondly, he has the Rhino problem of build struggles.  Duration isn't very necessary for either his 1 or his 4, channeled abilities that can mostly use efficiency to function.  However, Duration is critical for his 2 and 3 unless you're using a low duration fire build for heal spam.  Range is useful for all of his abilities, but building the other stats (Strength and Duration, usually) to their highest potential results in range being a dump stat.  Strength, obviously, powers all of his abilities.  Efficiency is important for his 4, but also becomes a dump stat in the name of Duration and Strength.

Chroma reworks are difficult (similar to Vauban, actually), because there is such a wide range of what is wanted to be done with him.  People like myself want his 3 replaced for something more thematic (and have Vex Armor put on a frame thematic built around it), while having his other abilities simply improved.  Some people want the 1 and 4 improved/removed, building him more around his powerful 2 and 3.  The complication goes even further because, while Chroma is excellent at boss destruction (Eidolons and Orb Mothers), his 2 and 3 are joke levels of powerful for star chart but scale terribly into the endurance run meta.

He has an established, albeit narrow, meta position, so, unlike frames like Vauban, Wukong, Atlas, etc who only exist within the small niche playbase, he isn't in too bad of a place.  It's the lack of a rework upon prime release (not the first, and not the last), the absurdly strong base stats of Chroma Prime, the iconic and "cool" design behind the Dragon Knight, and slap-on-the-face levels of bad that his 1 is that keep the desire for a rework coming.  Right now, the only change I think he needs is a change to the 1, as it is indisputably bad.  Eventually, I think he needs some thinking, but until frames who are in a much worse place right now are fixed, Chroma Prime will remain a dedicated Warframe in my arsenal, personally.

[TARINunit9]

16 hours ago, taiiat said:

Chromas' EHP was also divided by 10

Wait, how? The only nerf I remember to Chroma was to the Fury + guns synergy, I don't remember Scorn getting nerfed at all

[DrivaMain]

13 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Wait, how? The only nerf I remember to Chroma was to the Fury + guns synergy, I don't remember Scorn getting nerfed at all

They changed his Scorn calculations from multiplicative to additive, before his nerf lets just say Chroma’s scorn buff is 1000% (using Non prime chroma armor which is 350) and using a steel fiber his total armor would be 7700 (96% damage reduction) after his nerf his total armor (with 1000% scorn buff and steel fiber) his total armor is now 4200 (93% damage reduction) I know that is not a lot but if you calculate the damage reduction to get Effective Hit Points (EHP) the new Scorn calculation basically reduces Chroma’s EHP by around 50%

 

[Renginus]

i dont get this logic

its a bad kit - warframe rely on weapons and frames are 2nd thing ewery frame have 4 skills + "passive" and its

1 strong "main" spell

2 usseles and 1 situational

i never get this thing why ? why weapons ? why not both ? i like good spells mechanics etc. but here all what u need 90% time is just press mause button

like chroma

1 waste of energy in all situations

2/3 it should be his passive + aura is just hit button spell its boring af and he has 2 aura skills 

 

[SneakyErvin]

14 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

That is you build him for team support. Which I don't. And never saw the reason to build for a team buff build.

Team support is really the only point with Chroma though. I mean sure he does great damage alone in hunts and heists, but the whole idea since the Vex rework is for it to be a group tool. This just shows how terribly bad the situation is for Chroma, because even when they turn him into a group friendly frame, he needs to build for egotistical use.

And none of it makes him more useful than any other frame outside of hunts/heists.

[OvisCaedo]

also worth pointing out that while he IS a tank, chroma's survivability isn't really THAT insane compared to a lot of them, it's just that pretty much all of the tanks are completely overkill in tankiness for all reasonable content. Chroma also has a disadvantage in that his tankiness is entirely armor based, which means his actual effective EHP will vary wildly based on enemy damage types, and is ignored by slash procs.

I was going to say something about how I feel like his 1 is just there to be thematic, but they've deliberately kept it weak because of it being a 1... but then you look at most of the other 1 abilities frames have been given in the past couple years, and this doesn't seem to actually be a design concern at all any more. Just look at Gara and Khora.

EDIT: though Excal was brought up, and it is admittedly a lot funnier/stranger that the big posterboy of the game has two pretty useless abilities.

Edited January 30, 2019 by OvisCaedo

[(PSN)robotwars7]

18 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

I think he's fine. Not the most interesting or fun but I can't really see why he would need a rework.

well, after much experimentation, I finally found a build that works for me, using mods like Adaptation to make him practically unkillable, but out of the dozen or so different setups I've tried, none of them, even the best ones, address the biggest problems Chroma has:

firstly his 1 and 4 suck. and this isn't a "huh Chroma got nerfed" thing, people have been griping about his other 2 powers since LOOONG before DE tweaked his math. Spectral Scream is supposed to be an elemental DPS, but the damage is negligible, and the animation looks kind of dumb. Effigy would only need a slight buff damage wise, btu the biggest problem is it's efficiency: it drains way too much energy for a turret that is less effective at level 30 and under than the Xiphos Turret, which any frame can use as it's deployed via Air Support Charges. these powers need looking at, and saying that other frames only have 2 frequently used powers is not an excuse.

second, there's also the matter of Toxin and Shock Chroma, which I bet many people forgot existed. these versions of Chroma need a full rework entirely. nobody uses them because they just aren't as effective as fire or Ice; Shock Chroma does Shields, which as a whole need looking at anyway, and Toxin Chroma, which you would think would be a DPS machine almost like Saryn does utility. things like holstering speed.. like really? choosing either of these elements is just handicapping yourself when you could instead be giving everyone massive health bars, or tanking dozens of rockets with your face. all elements should be at the same standard as Ice IMO.

and I'd also like it if they let us switch element in the Arsenal instead of making it dependent on energy color: I get that's his gimmick - sorry, his PASSIVE, instead of an actually useful Passive - but it interferes with Fashionframe: why shouldn't I be allowed to Have red Ice? I can with Frost. or yellow Lightning? I can with my Volt Prime. it would greatly increase Chroma's appeal to the fashionframe crowd and that's only a good thing. plus DE could finally give him a useful passive ability, that also chnages based on element like the rest of his kit.

all that said, other frames like Wukong and Vauban need it more, and I can wait. I just can't agree with anyone who says Chroma is fine, because he blatantly isn't. he could be even better than he is now.

 

[LightZodiac]

4 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

Going through in order:

• Loki: His 1 is a great temporary distraction for stuff like synthesis scans and hacking, his 2 is core.  I'll accept the argument of his 3 because it can be a griefing ability.  His 4 is

With Loki you can cast his 1 then use 3 on the holograph to essentially teleport behind laser barriers so while most players simply just use his 2 all of his abilities are good and there is a good synergy between them as well. So that's another frame less on the list of frames with useless abilities.

 

[DerGreif2]

Chroma? Is that the press 3 and 2 one every minute frame that kills bosses? Yep he needs a rework...

[Sintag]

His Passive's really just an instruction booklet, his 1 and 4 are useless as hell.

I don't want a full rework, but I do want his 1 and 4 tweaked to be actually worth a damn in any situation, because as it stands Chroma's only good as a buffing machine and that's about it.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

23 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Another type of post that I saw times. And again. I don't get it.

Apparently one of the argument for his rework is that players only use him for his 2nd and 3rd abilities.

And? I mean a lot frames are used for two of their abilities usually. There is Loki, Zephyr, Vauban, Rhino, Equinox, Mesa, Excalibur, Valkyr.

1) That is not an argument.  That is a strawman.  2) You seriously don't know your frames if you think zeyphyr, rhino, mesa, excalibur, and valkyr only use two abilities.  Zyphr uses all of her abilities.  Rhino uses all of his depending on what build you go for, mesa is using all of her abilities sans her 1.  Same goes for excal and valk.

23 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Rhino players sometimes use his 4th but mostly I see players use only the 2nd and 3rd abilities. And also these two frames are constantly compared and I saw ppl referring to Chroma as "Rhino 2.0". Which is fair enough considering that in a way they are sameish.

Rhino's 4 is widely used as a panic button because it's one of the few remaining cc effects that effect a wide area with no line of sight requirement.  Beyond that it is used in reinforcing stomp builds which is one way to keep up his armor when it starts falling off and it having to re apply it becomes far more deadly for the user.  The comparison is there because both are buffer based frames that can tank.  But Rhino can bring strong buffs without risking himself and brings cc with him.  Where as chroma can't both be a strong buffer and a team buffer.  He doesn't bring anything to his team other than damage and can safely be replaced by other damage dealers with better kits.

23 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Also these same ppl put a big emphasis on his 1st and 4th ability. Some says that the 1st should be totally swapped out for something else cause? Can't remember only few frames that have actually useful 1st abilities.

Ash (with his 1 augment) strips armor which is beneficial for allies. Atlas is built around his one.  Banshee with augment is decent small cc with armor strip.  Baruuk lets him be entirely safe from everything sans AoE while hes casting abilities and reviving allies.  frost's 1 is good at removing his bubbles and freezing enemies with statuses on to keep them going indeff with potential ground finisher multipliers if frozen on ground.  It's a cheap "no you" to threatening enemies.  Gara's 1 is important for cheap cc and bursting her walls to continually scale her splinter storms damage.

Garuda's 1 gives her protection, scaling damage in a synergy that ignores walls and also lets her insta kill things like nox when low enough health.  Harrow's 1 is important for survival both in the hard cc and the shields it gives him which are part of his 2's economy.  Hydroid's 1 is cheap spammable cc that can layer on itself.  Inaro's pocket sand lets him delete threatening enemies which also gives him health back.  and it's realitively cheap cc for it's aoe potential.  Ivara's quiver has sleep darts and ziplines and cloak arrow.  Massive utility.  Khora's whip is integral to her entire kit.  Limbo's banish is integral to his entire kit's theme on control.

Mag's 1 is cheap spammable cc in a good aoe.  Mirage's 1 is integral for her being a weapon's platform.  Nezha's fire walker is cheap aoe cc with a speed boost attached to it.  Nidus's 1 is integral to his entire kit.  Nova's 1 grants her 90% damage reduction that is entirely possible to keep up in two seperate ways with augments.  Oberon's smite is scaling sort of aoe damage that also reduces enemies damage output.  Octavia's 1 is integral to her kit as a damage dealer.  Saryn's spores are integral to her entire kit.  Titania's 1 is a cheap aoe hard cc that also cleanses status effects.  Volt's 1 is cheap and spammable cc.  Zeypher's 1 is movement which is highly important for her survivability.

Even if your claim about only a few beneficial first abilities were true that doesn't make it okay.  No one has a problem with having niche/situational abilities.  The problem is all Chroma's 1 is is damage.  and it's not aoe damage nor even good single target damage.  His 4 is a massive penalty to his survivability with virtually no benefit beyond very random occasional cc and an outdated credit farm method.  You also can't recast your survival tools when you don't have your pelt.  So if your vex armor is gone while the pelt is out it's gone for good.

23 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

I think he's fine. Not the most interesting or fun but I can't really see why he would need a rework.

You're either actually ignorant or you just felt like being needlessly confrontational about something because you thought the idea in your head that couldn't have taken more than a passing glance to come up with was so out there that people would get their minds blown because you some how managed to figure out something that you thought others hadn't made the connection on.  He's "fine" right now because he has a purpose in the meta.  That doesn't mean his kit should be left alone.  The recent up tick of conversation about him is entirely due to his recent priming and the fact that the devs still openly ackowledge his issues but blatently tell us they're in no rush to address him.

[spirit_of_76]

9 hours ago, EiriMatsu said:

Valkyr: I have no idea which ability anyone would consider useless.  All of her abilities are good, though admittedly she can be played just utilizing Eternal War and Hysteria quite easily.  As a non-meta frame now atm, though, I refuse to consider her a frame with only 2 useful abilities.

as a Valk main the answer is her 1 & 3.

her 1 is a dated utility that has some use but is a bit limited due to her standard - range build

her 3 is bad a aoe stun that for the most part is lacking in duration, has a bad cast animation (she may be tanky but standing still is still a death sentence) and cost energy on what is often a pure strength build on a frame the need access to her expencive 4 to regain health. 

she in some respects has the same problem as Chroma to a grater and at the same time lesser extent.  she has 1 ability that is built for and 3 utilies (her 4 is more of an I need health or crap tones of damage than something regularly used in normal gameplay) while all of the rest of her kit is used and has a use she is used for her 2 almost exclusively.  that and Her 2 has to much stuff in it.  

overall she suffers from being one of the oldest frames in the game.  just like vuban and nyx.  her advantage is she is a buffing tank not a pure CC caster giving her better longevity.  Almost every frame as old as her has either gotten sweeping reworks (and may or may not be kinda useless) or has a kit that scales with the game/ does a thing that is always kinda useful (but even loki and frost are feeling his age as of late)

 

 

[spirit_of_76]

33 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Oberon's smite is scaling sort of aoe damage that also reduces enemies damage output. 

it is also a cc the orbs are a puncture proc and a stager while the target is hit with radiation (good for controlling ancients) and are knocked down.  it is also massive damage if used on a 90% armor striped target as the damage is based on some about *power strenght+35% of enemy max health and shields making it an absolute Boss killer or good ad clear when targeting heavy units/eximis.  

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

10 minutes ago, spirit_of_76 said:

it is also a cc the orbs are a puncture proc and a stager while the target is hit with radiation (good for controlling ancients) and are knocked down.  it is also massive damage if used on a 90% armor striped target as the damage is based on some about *power strenght+35% of enemy max health and shields making it an absolute Boss killer or good ad clear when targeting heavy units/eximis.  

Yes it's true that it has some cc to it.  I forgot to add that.  And good point on the damage vs unarmored enemies after stripping.

[JackHargreav]

It seems like I forgot to add that I'm not thinking in "absolutes". When I say these frames are used for 2 of their abilities I say they are mainly, mostly used for them. But it seems like ppl think that I'm saying they are not used non what so ever. My apologies for not making this clear in my post. The rework idea I'm still not really convinced about. Except for the 1st and 4th abilities. Considering that they are such a huge problem for a lot of ppl. The 3rd and 2nd? Nah. Imo they should just stay as they are.

[spirit_of_76]

5 minutes ago, JackHargreav said:

Except for the 1st and 4th abilities. Considering that they are such a huge problem for a lot of ppl. The 3rd and 2nd? Nah. Imo they should just stay as they are.

The problem with chroma is that he is not fine.  
His 2 is either a utility (the electric version if funny on star chart corpus missions) or a significant buff to survivability
His 3 is a massive buff to survivability and damage but only works if your frame has armor and you are using a weapon and standing in the miniscule radius of his 3.
Both his 1 and 4 are colossal wastes of energy as don’t do enough to be worth using in any capacity. 
While I agree that Vauban needs help first, Chroma should also be in that line for the sake of the game as a whole.  Give him a better type of damage buff, let him remain a buffing tank/general/offense based Oberon. He still needs to eat a power nerf to his 3 and 2, get a massive overhaul for his 1 and 4.  the thing is while they are working on Vauban and Titania they need to be looking at all frames and seeing if the need to be toned down (saryn, mesa…) or need parts of their kit changed/buffed (Valk, ash) or need a full overhaul (chroma) and to some extent these threads if they offer constructive criticism can help
 

[JackHargreav]

il y a une heure, spirit_of_76 a dit :

The problem with chroma is that he is not fine.  
His 2 is either a utility (the electric version if funny on star chart corpus missions) or a significant buff to survivability
His 3 is a massive buff to survivability and damage but only works if your frame has armor and you are using a weapon and standing in the miniscule radius of his 3.
Both his 1 and 4 are colossal wastes of energy as don’t do enough to be worth using in any capacity. 
While I agree that Vauban needs help first, Chroma should also be in that line for the sake of the game as a whole.  Give him a better type of damage buff, let him remain a buffing tank/general/offense based Oberon. He still needs to eat a power nerf to his 3 and 2, get a massive overhaul for his 1 and 4.  the thing is while they are working on Vauban and Titania they need to be looking at all frames and seeing if the need to be toned down (saryn, mesa…) or need parts of their kit changed/buffed (Valk, ash) or need a full overhaul (chroma) and to some extent these threads if they offer constructive criticism can help
 

No. Just no. From my understanding you just want to nerf him down even further and make him into something that he never was intended to be.

Edited January 30, 2019 by JackHargreav

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

On 2019-01-29 at 8:38 PM, JackHargreav said:

Hmm... I can see where you're coming from. But also what does a 1st ability matters really? If it's weak or mediocre no one will use it. If It's too powerful then It will be nerfed because of course...

Chromas one was already good before the "buff", before that you could negate stun.

This made it a somehow mediocre niche you could use

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

23 hours ago, taiiat said:

i didn't suggest as such. provided that the landscape was considered a fully dark area, Mirage would survive quite well.
we must ofcourse, remember that maxed out, Chroma realistically has 93.76% Damage Reduction (94.8% if we're talking about Prime) from Abilities.
which is comparable to Eclipse in an area that is full strength. while Trinity has 93.75%, Baruuk 95%, Equinox.... well it's complicated (amount of Damage Reduction differing depending on distance, plus whether you include the Slowing in that, Et Cetera), Gara 90%, Mesa 95% against most things, Nekros 90% (plus some from Health Conversion if we want to include that because of Desecrate?), Nezha 90% (plus some from Health Conversion if we want to include that because of Chakram prolifically creating Health Orbs?), Nidus 90%, Nova 90%, Nyx technically an unknown about from Passive (does Absorb/Assimilate count? shrug), Titania technically 50%, Valkyr (does the bonus Armor from Warcry count?), Zephyr technically by being mostly invulnerable to Ranged Weapons.

that formats like hell but anyways the point was that there are many other Warframes that also have very significant Damage Reduction available to them. and there's alternative mechanics that don't reduce Damage taken but increase survivability in other ways.

 

if we want to look outside of that, i could talk about how Quick Thinking + Guardian + Adaptation makes basically anything durable. but that's a different matter.

You should forget that some Frames just get their damage reduction just by their armor, which means toxin( gas)and slash dmg will right through without any reduction.

Damage reduction like Trinity's bless and link are reducing even this sort of dmg, which is a pretty good advantage

[(PSN)psycofang]

8 minutes ago, Dark_Chroma_Prime said:

Chromas one was already good before the "buff", before that you could negate stun.

This made it a somehow mediocre niche you could use

Might wanna elaborate on its every general use before saying it was..."good".  

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

23 hours ago, (PS4)FriendSharkey said:

 

2 and 3 should just be combined..I always pop both at the same time...While I'll just use effigy to save a downed player, that's about it with his ULT...but,... After Khora came out I was like we need a Kubrow version and Chroma does have a neat pelt..so I thought perhaps it could act as an armor that could combine with a companion or just become a companion outright...hence the "Old Spice" pose for number 4..which given how small he his without the pelt... It would be totally funny if you could ride it around like Beast Cat from He-Man...

The problem of this picture rework is that you won't be able to use his third and fourth ability at the same time.

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Might wanna elaborate on its every general use before saying it was..."good".  

I should correct myself it was "usable"

[Dark_Chroma_Prime]

The best rework focused around his first and fourth ability is this one:

This showcases a really good and territorial tank Chroma, which fits a dragon who guards his treasure

[(NSW)Evilpricetag]

Rhino's kit is interchangeable depending on how you like it, when in use at its best.. Yeah you might only be using 2-3 abilities

But Chroma.. Is only interchangeable based on his energy color.. Which may dictate a different mod load out, but only to use the same two abilities. 

His 1 isn't even good ever. Not even when he was new. It's a glorified emote. 

His 4 is pretty good in conclave for corner camping. So pretty much never.