All Endless missions discussion (Ideas to stay longer)

[RitzBitz13]

Endless missions have a lot of potential to add a new layer of challenges to extend your stay for longer than a single rotation. All missions they run on the reward system of “A.A.B.C” rotation, with the exception of arbitration missions. The system I feel is pretty straight forward and understandable however the point of endless missions is being endless. In my opinion, the downfall is that you don’t receive an extra reward for going those extra rotations. If there was an extra type of reward system that was put in place, players would extend their mission time and would start grinding out higher levels. This would give everyone the opportunity to push their warframes to the limit with these extra rewards as incentive.

If there was an extra type of reward after completing a cycle I feel more people would feel the want / need to push higher levels in order to get better rewards.

When I talk about endless missions, I’m talking about:

·         Defense

·         Survival

·         Excavation

·         Interception

·         Defection

·         Kuva Survival

·         Sanctuary Onslaught

As for the different game modes, allow me to propose the differences that would add more incentive to continue forward, instead of extracting earlier.

 

Kuva Survival:

The thing I would like to focus the most on is Kuva survival mission. Since I started grinding hard with the kuva collection, I feel going further than 20-30 minutes doesn’t make much sense because you still get the same amount of Kuva no matter how long you go for. The enemy gets stronger the further you go (obviously) but the reward of kuva never goes further than the normal 200 per life support capsule. My thoughts are to provide extra rewards when you continue further in the mission by amplifying the amount of kuva you receive per capsule. For instance, the amount of kuva would increase by 25 after every reward rotation. For example: starting a normal survival mission you receive rewards every 5 minutes. Every time the reward system awards everyone for surviving another 5 minutes, you increase the Kuva amount received per capsule.

0-5 minutes: 200 kuva

5-10 minutes: 225 kuva

10-15 minutes: 250 kuva

15-20 minutes: 275 kuva

Etc....

 

When people see that the kuva slowly starts to increase, they will want to push the time they can stay. The longer you can stay in the mission would mean a higher reward. If someone is able to stay in the mission for an hour, each kuva capsule will start yielding 500 kuva per capsule. I realize that might seem very extreme so you could alter the reward per 5 minute amount. By adding more kuva it creates meaning for endless missions to actually be endless. The further into the game you play, the enemies get much tougher, (understandable) but then your rewards in the end reflect the difficulty you have been enduring.

 

Excavation:

Excavation could be similar to kuva fortress, but it would increase at a much slower rate. Since you can have multiple excavators in the mission at the same time, the number could increase by 5 cryotic per excavator. By adding this kind of incentive, after 20 excavations, you have potential to double the amount of cryotic.

Another possibility is by starting off at different Tiers would yield a different increase per excavator. Since Tier 1 starts enemies with an average level below 10. The yield increase would be slower than that of Tier 3 which has enemies starting with an average level above 21.

Tier 1 (Earth, Venus, Mars): each excavation increases by 5 cryotic.

Tier 2 (Europa - Valefor): each excavation increases by 7.5 cryotic

Tier 3 (Europa - Cholistan, Neptune, Pluto): each excavation increases by 10 cryotic

 

Defense / Interception / Defection / Sanctuary Onslaught:

The way things are in the game right now and with these missions, there isn't much incentive to face higher and tougher enemies. This allows for potential to further challenge yourself by going further in the game, and by doing so grants more rewards. Right now, other than hoping to get the odds to get a mod you've been searching for with a chance of say, 3%. By going further after completing a cycle of 20 defense waves / 4 interception waves / 8 defection squads / 8 Sanctuary Onslaught levels, you would simply receive a second roll of that reward tier.

For example, in defense at the completion of wave 25 instead of receiving another single reward, instead you receive 2. At wave 45, since you've completed 2 full cycles of the rotations you now receive 3 rewards from tier “A”. By receiving more rewards for extending your stay and pushing the limit of your warframes, it could make endless missions so much more rewarding.

Using the only archwing interception mission as an example. Rotation A and B have some of the necessary mods to help make archguns and archwings much more powerful. By staying in the mission for interception wave 5, you will have 2 chances to roll the mods that are only a 2.51% chance.

 

These are just a few ideas but if the Devs were to look into this, I know these wouldn't be these exact changes. Its an idea that I think everyone would be in favor for. What is everyones thoughts?

[Phatose]

Not in favor.  Super long missions do not please me, neither does inefficiency.  I do not want to have to choose between the two.  Endless missions should not provide extra rewards beyond the base, save for bragging rights.  If we want harder, more rewarding missions, just give us missions that start out harder, not missions that incentive sitting for extended periods of time.

[(XBOX)RPColten]

5 hours ago, RItzBitz13 said:

The system I feel is pretty straight forward and understandable however the point of endless missions is being endless. In my opinion, the downfall is that you don’t receive an extra reward for going those extra rotations.

The point of 'endless missions' is to be a mission that does not have a definite end state as Captures or Exterminates do. They are not necessarily supposed to be 'endless' but rather 'open-ended', where there is an ending but that 'ending' may change from squad to squad. It is there, you are supposed to leave, but that moment shifts around. There is a subtle difference. Secondly, the downfall of not receiving extra rewards for going past the soft cap is by design. They are meant to slowly push players out when they exceed the soft cap (Rotation C), hence extreme enemy scaling and no reward bonuses for staying past your metaphorical bed-time. You're not intended to go past this pseudo-barrier time and time again.

The Devs don't want to promote endurance game-play that has an incentive on staying well past the soft-cap barrier, whether that is wave 20, minute 20, round 4-5 or 10 extractors. It's why they've been very apprehensive on tacking on scaling rewards. Every time the topic has come up in a Devstream, the main reply has been something along the lines of "We don't want to promote hour long missions. We want players to be able to hop in and out of missions in small chunks, rather than feel they are shoe-horned into these long endurance missions." Paraphrasing obviously.

----

5 hours ago, RItzBitz13 said:

If there was an extra type of reward system that was put in place, players would extend their mission time and would start grinding out higher levels. This would give everyone the opportunity to push their warframes to the limit with these extra rewards as incentive.

As far as pushing players to extend their game-play and test their limits, that is why Sorties, Arbitrations, and Kuva Floods exist. It's why high-level Bounties exist. It's why the Index and Rathuum exist with high-level options. It's why Elite Sanctuary Onslaught Exists. The Arbitrations are the only ones that demand a certain time commitment that pushes past the norm, though this commitment falls short of an hour typically and there is a gap between these alerts. These missions all also come with extra rewards as an incentive.

You don't need long taxing endurance missions to promote intensive game-play.

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by (XB1)RPColten
corrections

[trst]

Most definitely not. The only way I'd ever humor the idea of scaling rewards like this is if it's in "endless" modes like Onslaught where you're "forced" to end the mission.

However Onslaught's feature of increasing rare drop rates into the mission is appealing but at the same time it's only only endless mode with a (mostly) consistent drop table between all rotations.

[Aldain]

Only change I'd like to see is A A B C going to either A B B C or A B C C, the A rewards are range from pointless to marginal benefits/fodder relics.

[spirit_of_76]

more to the point 

separate survival from the excavation drop table
balance relic gain per mode so that they have a similar overall efficiency
give survival a set of only relics with rotation a being the same as the mission tier, and rotations b and c being one tier above
remove junk mods form t3,
remove the credit packs from excavation
change the drop chances of items so that they are in line with survival, (it will be slightly faster if you can do 2 or more excavators at once but about the same, if you go one at a time)

then if you want scaling rewards, make it so that while we still get the same number of relics from a 60 min mission as 3 20 min missions let us choose between different reward rolls so that we are more likely to get what we want.  

[OnzaFTW]

9 hours ago, RItzBitz13 said:

Endless missions have a lot of potential to add a new layer of challenges to extend your stay for longer than a single rotation. All missions they run on the reward system of “A.A.B.C” rotation, with the exception of arbitration missions. The system I feel is pretty straight forward and understandable however the point of endless missions is being endless. In my opinion, the downfall is that you don’t receive an extra reward for going those extra rotations. If there was an extra type of reward system that was put in place, players would extend their mission time and would start grinding out higher levels. This would give everyone the opportunity to push their warframes to the limit with these extra rewards as incentive.

 

If there was an extra type of reward after completing a cycle I feel more people would feel the want / need to push higher levels in order to get better rewards.

 

When I talk about endless missions, I’m talking about:

 

·         Defense

 

·         Survival

 

·         Excavation

 

·         Interception

 

·         Defection

 

·         Kuva Survival

 

·         Sanctuary Onslaught

 

As for the different game modes, allow me to propose the differences that would add more incentive to continue forward, instead of extracting earlier.

 

 

Kuva Survival:

 

The thing I would like to focus the most on is Kuva survival mission. Since I started grinding hard with the kuva collection, I feel going further than 20-30 minutes doesn’t make much sense because you still get the same amount of Kuva no matter how long you go for. The enemy gets stronger the further you go (obviously) but the reward of kuva never goes further than the normal 200 per life support capsule. My thoughts are to provide extra rewards when you continue further in the mission by amplifying the amount of kuva you receive per capsule. For instance, the amount of kuva would increase by 25 after every reward rotation. For example: starting a normal survival mission you receive rewards every 5 minutes. Every time the reward system awards everyone for surviving another 5 minutes, you increase the Kuva amount received per capsule.

 

0-5 minutes: 200 kuva

 

5-10 minutes: 225 kuva

 

10-15 minutes: 250 kuva

 

15-20 minutes: 275 kuva

 

Etc....

 

 

 

When people see that the kuva slowly starts to increase, they will want to push the time they can stay. The longer you can stay in the mission would mean a higher reward. If someone is able to stay in the mission for an hour, each kuva capsule will start yielding 500 kuva per capsule. I realize that might seem very extreme so you could alter the reward per 5 minute amount. By adding more kuva it creates meaning for endless missions to actually be endless. The further into the game you play, the enemies get much tougher, (understandable) but then your rewards in the end reflect the difficulty you have been enduring.

 

 

 

Excavation:

 

Excavation could be similar to kuva fortress, but it would increase at a much slower rate. Since you can have multiple excavators in the mission at the same time, the number could increase by 5 cryotic per excavator. By adding this kind of incentive, after 20 excavations, you have potential to double the amount of cryotic.

 

Another possibility is by starting off at different Tiers would yield a different increase per excavator. Since Tier 1 starts enemies with an average level below 10. The yield increase would be slower than that of Tier 3 which has enemies starting with an average level above 21.

 

Tier 1 (Earth, Venus, Mars): each excavation increases by 5 cryotic.

 

Tier 2 (Europa - Valefor): each excavation increases by 7.5 cryotic

 

Tier 3 (Europa - Cholistan, Neptune, Pluto): each excavation increases by 10 cryotic

 

 

 

Defense / Interception / Defection / Sanctuary Onslaught:

 

The way things are in the game right now and with these missions, there isn't much incentive to face higher and tougher enemies. This allows for potential to further challenge yourself by going further in the game, and by doing so grants more rewards. Right now, other than hoping to get the odds to get a mod you've been searching for with a chance of say, 3%. By going further after completing a cycle of 20 defense waves / 4 interception waves / 8 defection squads / 8 Sanctuary Onslaught levels, you would simply receive a second roll of that reward tier.

 

For example, in defense at the completion of wave 25 instead of receiving another single reward, instead you receive 2. At wave 45, since you've completed 2 full cycles of the rotations you now receive 3 rewards from tier “A”. By receiving more rewards for extending your stay and pushing the limit of your warframes, it could make endless missions so much more rewarding.

 

Using the only archwing interception mission as an example. Rotation A and B have some of the necessary mods to help make archguns and archwings much more powerful. By staying in the mission for interception wave 5, you will have 2 chances to roll the mods that are only a 2.51% chance.

 

These are just a few ideas but if the Devs were to look into this, I know these wouldn't be these exact changes. Its an idea that I think everyone would be in favor for. What is everyones thoughts?

+1 sounds good to me , id like endurance scaling rewards definitely . especially the way kuva survival works currently - it needs some tuning for sure 

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

We don't need motivation to stay longer.  We're already getting what we do need: solo extraction.

 

Let the individuals decide.

[Kaotyke]

So, in essence: Scalling Rewards Thread... again.

No, DE will not do that. If there is a scaleability in those missions players will feel obligated to go further and further and they do not want their players to stay in 1 mission wasting themselves away, that leads to burnout and players dropping the game, sometimes permanently.

[rune_me]

Players should not be punished for not wanting to spend 2 hours in a mission.

[DerGreif2]

2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

So, in essence: Scalling Rewards Thread... again.

No, DE will not do that. If there is a scaleability in those missions players will feel obligated to go further and further and they do not want their players to stay in 1 mission wasting themselves away, that leads to burnout and players dropping the game, sometimes permanently.

 

2 hours ago, rune_me said:

Players should not be punished for not wanting to spend 2 hours in a mission.

 

That is not the point. We need scaling rewards for endless missions. The people that want can go but the people that stay should be rewarded for taking the risk. It is not fair in the moment. Per 20 min / waves there should be 2x the rewards and after 40 min 3x times the reward and so on.

What is so hard to understand that simple scaling rewards would make the game better? It does not mean scale the rewards down for the 20 min player.

Fighting higher enemys = getting higher rewards.

It's simple as that. Just because some people dont want to stay in a mission for a long time why should people that like it should not be rewarded for it?

No one forces you to stay above 20 min or waves but some people might want that.

 

Sometimes I dont understand some people...

Edited February 12, 2019 by DerGreif2

[rune_me]

Just now, DerGreif2 said:

 

 

That is not the point. We need scaling rewards for endless missions. The people that want can go but the people that stay should be rewarded for taking the risk. It is not fair in the moment. Per 20 min / waves there should be 2x the rewards and after 40 min 3x times the reward and so on.

What is the hard on that?

Fighting higher enemys = getting higher rewards.

It's simple as that. Just because some people dont want to stay in a mission for a long time why should people that like it should not be rewarded for it?

No one forces you to stay above 20 min or waves but some people might want that.

 

Sometimes I dont understand some people...

It's not going to happen. DE has already addressed this several times and said they don't want scaling rewards. The only thing they did say was that they might remove some of the filler in the drop tables the longer you stayed, so the rewards will always be the same for everyone, but the odds of getting a good drop increases for each rotation. But that was forever ago and nothing has changed, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

[DerGreif2]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Thy Divinity said:

We don't need motivation to stay longer.  We're already getting what we do need: solo extraction.

 

Let the individuals decide.

But we should be rewarded for staying longer. That's normaly the point of endless modes.

[DerGreif2]

2 minutes ago, rune_me said:

It's not going to happen. DE has already addressed this several times and said they don't want scaling rewards. The only thing they did say was that they might remove some of the filler in the drop tables the longer you stayed, so the rewards will always be the same for everyone, but the odds of getting a good drop increases for each rotation. But that was forever ago and nothing has changed, so I wouldn't hold my breath.

Just because they said this at some point in the past that sont mean that it could not happen in the future. Nothing is set in stone. But alone that they remove filler would be a good thing. And the point of rewards is also an important one because right now we get nothing but crap in 70% of the time.

Edited February 12, 2019 by DerGreif2

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

Hey DE! Reward my addiction!

Fortunately DE cares about your health more than you do.

[FlusteredFerret]

Well 20 minutes is currently about the limit of what my gear can handle...maybe 30 tops. Thats also what my patience & willpower for playing any single mission will stretch to.

Absolutely zero interest in playing for longer, even with the lure of increased rewards. If I'm farming resources, I'd rather do several shorter missions than one marathon.

Also less likely to suffer server / hosting issues, with the attendant risk of losing said rewards.

 

Edited February 12, 2019 by FlusteredFerret

[SneakyErvin]

No need for scaling rewards, what we do need is a way to increase the starting difficulty of missions so we dont have to ramp up to level 100+ in trivial content. At such a point they could rework rewards too in order to make high level content a better experience with proper efficiency, like normal games do.

Endless should always be optional regarding how long you stay beyond the initial 3/4 rotations.

[DreisterDino]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb rune_me:

Players should not be punished for not wanting to spend 2 hours in a mission.

This doesnt count as an argument for me... you are not punished...

Why does it affect or annoy you that someone else is getting  2.5 cryotic more per extractor when he stays longer?

 

"I dont like the Orb-fight, but i shouldnt be punished for not wanting to do something in the game"

If i dont like something, i dont do it, let it be endless or bossfights or whatever. And i am not punished at all because other players can grind the Orbs like crazy and get lots of crispy Toroids, because, why should i even care about what other players get as rewards?

 

Anyway, i agree with this:

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Phatose:

just give us missions that start out harder, not missions that incentive sitting for extended periods of time.

 

I made this suggestion in Mission & Levels:

 

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

This doesnt count as an argument for me... you are not punished...

Which is all well and good. But it does count as an argument for me. Which is why I gave it. And will continue to give it.

[DreisterDino]

Gerade eben schrieb rune_me:

Which is all well and good. But it does count as an argument for me. Which is why I gave it. And will continue to give it.

Then you have to explain why it is a problem if another player gets a little more of something just because he plays more.

This is a coop-game and you are never in a disadvantage because another player can farm a little more ressources.

[rune_me]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

Then you have to explain why it is a problem if another player gets a little more of something just because he plays more.

This is a coop-game and you are never in a disadvantage because another player can farm a little more ressources.

I don't have to at all. I just gave my opinion. I'm 100% okay with you not agreeing with my opinion.

[DreisterDino]

vor 1 Minute schrieb rune_me:

I don't have to at all. I just gave my opinion. I'm 100% okay with you not agreeing with my opinion.

🤣

Ok, awesome ^^

 

Thats how discussions work ofc...

 

A: "The earth is flat"

B: "Why? Its not and i can explain you why its not"

A: "Its my opinion, you have to accept it!"

B: " -_- "

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

🤣

Ok, awesome ^^

 

Thats how discussions work ofc...

 

A: "The earth is flat"

B: "Why? Its not and i can explain you why its not"

A: "Its my opinion, you have to accept it!"

B: " -_- "

I did not at all say you had to accept it. I said I don't care if you accept it or not. That's entirely your choice.

[ebrl]

17 hours ago, RItzBitz13 said:

All missions they run on the reward system of “A.A.B.C” rotation, with the exception of arbitration missions. The system I feel is pretty straight forward and understandable however the point of endless missions is being endless.

Stopped reading right there. The point of potentially endless missions is being endless... to you and some other players with a lot of time on their hands, maybe. In every way that they are designed, it's pretty clear that DE does not want to promote staying indefinitely in a single mission at all. And honestly, rewarding marathon sessions is a slippery slope that they're better off avoiding. Infinitely scaling rewards, in particular, is most likely NEVER going to happen, because it is an incredibly terrible idea on multiple levels: it would result in strictly enforced metas in more parts of the game, deterioration of player interactivity, increase in player hostility, widening of gap between players with too little vs too much time invested, which in turn potentially breaks the game's economy... it would be a disaster that would only benefit people available and willing to stay for hours and hours in a single mission. That is, until they get hit with a host migration that causes them to lose everything they had gained in the last 3 hours! Then these people would be ranting in the loser corner, too.

[(XBOX)xJdKxZomBiE]

I personally don't want to stay in a mission for 2 hours.  Any mission for two hours, because that devious super boss "Random disconnect" shows up unannounced and there goes all your hard work.

 

20 minutes is what DE has basically put forth as canon as the limit they want you in a mission.  Why do you think they have such extreme scaling afterwards?  Do an Arbitration and while you may be fine and dandy for the first 19 minutes, the moment your timer hits 21:01, the enemies hit like trucks, and I have often been one shot even with 90% damage reduction.  DE has said they want people to have fun, and the consensus of fun is people spending 10 to 20 minutes doing a mission and then moving on to another one, not sitting for hours in a single mind numbingly boring mission type.  30 minutes is my max for survivals and defense missions mainly because after the C wave, there is nothing else I need and I can go back to my lander and change my gear up if I want to.

 

However.

 

A method that maybe they could use to espouse this absurd concept of an unlimited mode, would be that you load into a single map or star chart, like Venus, or Jupiter, and you get endless rotation of mission types.  So you start with say, an interception, and then you complete all waves of that, then Lotus tells you that the mission has changed, and now you and your team have to fight your way across the map or ship exterminating all enemies along the way to a cryopod that needs defended, and then after that say she tells you there is a target to capture, or a target to sabotage,which turns into a survival since you just sabotaged something tied to life support and while that system comes back online or switches over to backup you have to murder death kill your way across the map grabbing life pod drops and such until your next location and mission type. 

 

That could be interesting, but the big issue with that of course, is that as often you get disconnected in game, or host migration issues, very rarely are you going to find a group of people that want to try this mode out.  Myself and a few of my clan members which are friends irl, would be game to give it a go, but there is always something else better to be doing.  Ranking up a new frame or weapon.  Grinding a specific place for mats to forge a item from your foundry, or grinding Orb Val bounty to try and get to the profit taker.  Killing eidolons. Spinning in circles in your lander watching your syndana spin behind you while you wait for your friend to come back.