End Game...or end of the game?

[AbioticViper]

10 minutes ago, Kontrollo said:

Thanks for clarifying. Well, they added some maps, I think? But there's not much more to do to it anyway. It's still there, people just don't like it for some reason. (I was never really interested in that one, I have to say.)

 

It would help a bit, yes, but it's not enough.

Everything we have at this point is so powerful, and we have plenty of options to to trivialise the game, too. Even if there was only a single squad combination that'd do that in a new mode, it would take people a few days to a few weeks to figure it out and completely steamroll it. Even Exploiter phase 1 got sidestepped after a very short time, remember. That was not team dependent, and pretty much just a puzzle.

And Trials were obviously a much bigger development effort than some niche sports-like game mode. It's just not possible to create satisfying content like that.

Well no one asked for Lunaro, it was a choice made by the dev team. Remember they announced infront of live audience, and everyone went quite and was like WTF is that 😂 That's why DE needs feedback sometimes or they release content no one wants. Was great idea just appealed to no one 😂

Well that's the thing only way to actually make the content difficult would be to add more puzzle elements into the game, the amp for eidolon fights was a great idea to add a new dimension into the game. And it worked for while. If they could expand on this idea and add more mechanics into the missions it would help alot. But it needs to be engaging, not stand on point A and B while player C and D hack a console. I've hacked enough consoles in WF and defended enough points to do me lifetime. It's time they sat down and thought about something new.

9 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Warframe balance is ded, can't have endgame sorry.

Yes that's one of the issues highlighted and be great if they fixed it. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by AbioticViper

[SECURATYYY]

Read through and just some thoughts:

New enemies.

When Nox came out he had a lot of mixed reactions. Most people still don't like him, but he added difficulty. This could be expanded to other new units. Grineer Juggernaut? Corpus death-bot? Infested could easily get some new hulky units. This isn't an end-all solution, but it would be nice. The various raknoids you fight on fortuna are great, and are threatening. We need more of this. I've seen Vay Hek, where are the other heavily augmented grineer? Lemphantis? Bigger.

 

Raids.

Sadly I never got to try the raids. I loved the raids in destiny, and would absolutely love to see something similar in WF. However Railjack is coming, and I firmly believe this could be something 'raid-ish'. As in requiring tactics,  cooperation, communication, and so on so forth. In the teaser we got from DE, one person had to board an enemy ship. How difficult are the enemies on the ship? What if they're level 100 and have some new units? (Loki ftw amirite) Better plan appropriately.

I feel like high-level content is coming and we should rejoice, but other players will feel excluded as it'll be more difficult than what we're used to. Gotta get that WF Gjallarhorn or whatev.

Also, maybe have baby raids for 2 people. Could help people mingle and make friends, while providing a challenge and cooperation as well. They don't necessarily have to be 8 player super mega ultra raids.

 

Revise game modes.

Talking about survival, excavation, etc.

Survival is my personal favorite. I like going for a long time. To me, its the bread and butter of the horde shooter. Survival has been around for forever, but hasn't seen too many updates. There is a lot you can do here. At a minimum, you can increase the default level, or give us a node for it. Hell, new enemies would be great. I guess my point is we can make what we already have, better. Oh and let the enemy spawn rates be the same as if 4 players were in there. Survival solo, not enough enemies imo.

Stretching onto other game modes, most of the same apply. However script events could be added. When the Lotus says 'grineer marines are moving your way', make it spawn in a literal hit squad. Some new grineer juggernaut guy, with 2 nox, 3 heavy gunners, and like 10 lancers. When you get spotted and they set off the alarm, make it more of an 'oh shiiii' moment. I'm inside an enemy ship, I'd expect the entire armed force of the ship to respond. Add some more in-mission threats.

 

More players.

In raids there were 8 players right? What if we could do survival with 8 people, with more enemies as a result? (Death to potato pc?) Probably won't happen, but food for thought. 8 player with lvl 100 enemy survival sounds fun.

[(XBOX)KiryuStark]

6 hours ago, Catastor said:

you believe that ? lol ! 

they said the same thing about failtuna, and many other things and they never hold a candle. 

this game have a major balance issues and rotten core mechanics that need to be purged and worked on from the ground up.

I think railjack has serious potential. As long as they dont have it be a single mission, the tile system they've been using could keep it fresh. It also seems like they could use it for clan war. Imagine several of these ships in an EVE or Dreadnought kind of battle. You would be defending yourself and boarding other ships.

[Rivyn]

What is endgame, and how does it differ from what we have now? People keep throwing 'endgame' around, but the best I can see is that it's just harder material than what we have now. 

[QueenKharn]

They need to fix how damage and our abilities work and scale before they can even consider endgame content like people propose here. If they develop it now, it's going to be in enviroment where Chroma can trivialise anything they throw at it. Where Slash is still king. Balancing around having that as a factor means that alot of stuff just falls to the wayside. It limits the options.

I honestly think they took a good first step with Exploiter. That fight was satisfying because it relied less on the numbers and more on tactics and mechanical skill. However it was telling that to do that, they had to disable alot of ability interaction.

That right there is a flag of what needs to change before we can get more satisfying content like that. Damage 3.0 and a full abilities sweep.

Edited March 27, 2019 by KokoroWish

[(PSN)lokaspoka]

12 hours ago, AbioticViper said:

So I've finally hit that stage in WF, the end game stage. Now when I say end game I don't mean release one final content drop and stop working on the game. No I mean there isn't a single mission/enemy in the game that even offers me the slightest of challenges. And its been that way for along time. 

You talk and type like a PVE player ( i say this cuz you not once mentioned with the raid suggestion pvp)

Thats how PVE works you bring in stronger emnys then you need to strengthen your gear its a endless cycle

welcome to the world of PVE.

But if it was PVP youd find the challenge your looking for since gear level advantage are deactivated.

Everyone would fight for glory.

[(PSN)thowed]

10 hours ago, AbioticViper said:

Played tones of destiny, this player is on drugs I promise you.

Easier then a sortie😂 

Tons* Than*

Sad a drug addict knows basic usage of words and you don't.  You've clearly never had a good raiding team in Destiny if you think they're a real challenge.  I get it, you want a raid in Warframe.  Making up lies about how challenging Destiny is has nothing to do with Warframe.  I've played TONES of Destiny also, the raids were just as much of a joke with good gear and teammates as sorties are.

[Midas]

12 hours ago, AbioticViper said:

So I've finally hit that stage in WF, the end game stage. Now when I say end game I don't mean release one final content drop and stop working on the game. No I mean there isn't a single mission/enemy in the game that even offers me the slightest of challenges. And its been that way for along time. 

Destiny has it's raids, The Division has it's Dark Zone, hell even Anthem has those fortress missions, list goes on. 

Are we ever going to get content that will challenge me again? Or will it stay the current meta, timegate everything while making everything achieveable for every player regardless of items or skills. Even rivens are completely pointless and are not required for any content, all they offer is 

A) Make a gun complete overkill

B) Make a gun that isn't viable, viable again. 

Only riven in the game even WORTH looking at it for Lanka or Rubico, and even then there not 100% need for eidolon fights, any player squad worth there salt should be easily able to do a 3x3.

So my question is, will WF ever offer a challenge for end game players, something only players with good gear and skill set can do. Or will it always remain a day care for adults.

Raids were an excellent idea in WF I loved them, If only they were balanced better and more bug free it would of been a huge success. But like everything in WF ex. Aberration/ESO it's added forgotten about and they move onto the next thing without ever finishing what they've added.

 please read and add on because your post is how we all feel rn.

[jfhsanseiIII]

I’ve said before that I would love your typical MMO style raid.  The ones before were a bit of a mess, buggy, and really uninviting to new players.  

Make a single instance with different bosses with mechanics that require players to not only shoot but be mindful of  their surroundings.   Reward them with random new or buffed weapons, mods, etc, and it’s be fun. I know it might seem a lazy idea, but I could totally go for it. Imagine if you had to waffle through small packs of enemies that needed pulling, CC, etc. it’d be lots of fun to me.  

[AbioticViper]

7 hours ago, (PS4)lokaspoka said:

You talk and type like a PVE player ( i say this cuz you not once mentioned with the raid suggestion pvp)

Thats how PVE works you bring in stronger emnys then you need to strengthen your gear its a endless cycle

welcome to the world of PVE.

But if it was PVP youd find the challenge your looking for since gear level advantage are deactivated.

Everyone would fight for glory.

I'm far from a PvE player, for someone who loved fortnite, ark, Conan, Cod etc...I've played a massive selection of these games and loved them.

Reason I don't request PvP content is simple,

1) WF community is made up in large of people who cant/wont/hate PvP. Its a very casual log on play with no challenge community.

2) The balancing required for PvP in WF would be near impossible due how far the game has gone without ever taking into mind PvP. I don't believe it possible in WF anymore. 

[Teljaxx]

The main problem with Warframe and challenge is that pretty much the only challenge the game ever offers is when enemies are a higher level than you can currently deal with effectively. And because your power level is constantly increasing, no part of it is ever permanently challenging. This applies to individual players, as they progress through the game, they collect better stuff and can take on higher level enemies. And it applies to the entire playerbase, as newer things are added to the game that increase the maximum potential power anyone can attain.

Balancing around this is pretty much impossible. The spectrum of power between individual players is so vast that there is really no way to make anything balanced for everyone. And the gap is always increasing. Any time a new challenge comes along, it always offers new rewards, and those rewards make you more powerful. So simply by defeating the challenge, it becomes less challenging. But because this is also one of the most basic systems that the entire game revolves around, there isn't really much DE can do to change that.

Another problem that this type of "endgame" content creates, and why I personally don't usually enjoy it that much, is that it limits the variety of gear in the game. Even though there are so many different combinations of weapons, Warframes, companions, and mods to choose from, only a very small portion are "endgame viable". So when you are doing something high level, you have to bring your best gear, which is most likely not the most fun gear, if you want to have the best chance to succeed.

And Rivens are one of the worst parts of the game. They are pure powercreep and nothing else. They simply bump up the enemy level you can effectively handle, while doing nothing to make it more interesting or exciting to play. And at the same time, they trivialize the lower level content, making it even less fun to play. This is why I never use them. They were also supposed to make underpowered weapons more useful, but that doesn't work when they make everything else more powerful as well. A decent intent, but very poor execution.

 

19 hours ago, (PS4)KingGuy420 said:

As far as Destiny is concerned, they throttle your stats to craft a perceived challenge. I play Warframe cause they don't pull that crap. When I'm working to make my character more powerful, I want him to be more powerful, not constantly bottlenecked.

As for the raids in Destiny being challenging, the newest raid was beat in 6 minutes a few days ago. All challenge becomes easy with knowledge and time. When they added the no death challenge to the Last Wish raid, people were doing it that day. No matter what challenging content DE adds, it won't be hard inside of a few days. That means they'd have to pound out new "challenging" content every week to keep people happy. It's an impossible race to run. The Eidolons were challenging those first few days too, how long did that last?

This is why Destiny 2 has its power system. It works in such a way that it levels the playing field between old and new players, and keeps the challenge intact for everyone while still allowing for progression. But, the biggest problem with it is that once you realize that the nice shiny power 500 gun that you just got is not any more effective against the enemies you were fighting at power 50, the progression feels pointless.

As for how fast people can beat the biggest challenges: Just because someone beat it ten seconds after it came out doesn't really matter. What matter is whether or not you can beat it. And I don't mean by simply looking up a guide from the players that beat it first, and copying their builds and techniques. That's cheating. You need to try it yourself, and figure out how to beat it on your own.

One problem with gaming in the internet age is that it has become so easy to simply let others play a game for you. Get stuck? Someone else has already made a video of exactly how to beat it, so just go watch that and copy what they did, right? But that isn't playing the game for yourself, and it completely ruins any challenge or surprises there could have been. if you do this, and then complain about how easy the game is, that is 100% your fault. You made the choice to ruin the challenge for yourself, so you have nothing to complain about.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

21 hours ago, AbioticViper said:

Are we ever going to get content that will challenge me again?

No, and the community will fight to keep it that way.

[zoffmode]

This always comes up in video games. Hell, even in single player games. People use the most overpowered crap or even just straight up cheese all encounters and then complain "IS THERE NOTHING TO CHALLENGE ME?!?!"

It's simple. They have to design the content so even non tier whores and non cheesers can do it. So those players who want to use a fun frame or gun they enjoy can also do that content. If you want a challenge that badly, put on your MK1-Braton and your Mote amp and go solo Tridolon with Mag or something.

Edited March 27, 2019 by zoffmode
why is S#&$ considered a bad word but crap isn't?

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, zoffmode said:

This always comes up in video games. Hell, even in single player games. People use the most overpowered crap or even just straight up cheese all encounters and then complain "IS THERE NOTHING TO CHALLENGE ME?!?!"

It's simple. They have to design the content so even non tier whores and non cheesers can do it. So those players who want to use a fun frame or gun they enjoy can also do that content. If you want a challenge that badly, put on your MK1-Braton and your Mote amp and go solo Tridolon.

This is rather true. As a veteran I am overpowered and there's not much of a challenge for me either. But it's fine and I'm happy that way. And on another note I'd hate that DE somehow took that power away from me, so I like it the way it is. There's some ways to create a challenge for myself, which I do on occasion. And I believe pretty much every player doesn't really want this extreme situation. I believe pretty much every player has phases where they're burned out and need some easy tasks and take the game slow and easy, as there are phases in which the player gets excited and takes the extra mile.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

This game is more about the journey, not the destination. But you’re right on the nose with the title. End game is the end of the game, at least for now. At least DE puts in more stuff to do and more stuff to use over time to bring players back. Plus it’s a point that every player inevitably gets to in any game they play; and that’s that everyone eventually gets bored and moves on to something new. I’m starting to get to that point myself cuz I too have done pretty much everything here. But hey, I enjoyed the game for over two years. Not many games make me want to invest that kind of time like that and certainly not its competition. 

[DimosZargarda]

Ive been playing since beta, and to me WF always was about MR, about leveling everything that could be leveled, once I run out of stuff to level, I simply take a break. They release new content all the time, so after a few months id just come back, and continue where I left. At some point we all get bored, but WF keeps getting bigger, so what I would recommend you is to just take a break

[zoffmode]

On 2019-03-27 at 8:40 PM, AbioticViper said:

-Snip-

So he's the guy that had a hand in creating really lackluster content then. How is that a good thing?

 

Let's think about what people do IRL for fun for a second (disregard the ethical aspect). Hunting with a bow takes a lot more skill than hunting with a rifle and can be a lot more satisfying. But then again, rifle is a lot more advanced and we have access to it so gotta use it. But hell, you know what why not take even something more efficient and use traps. Oh, now you can even use drones to help find your prey. Gotta do that too since it's a power increase.

But wait, is this fun? You had the most fun when you were using just a bow. And you hunt for fun... so what do you do?

 

"Difficulty that rewards" I honestly don't mind, but you gotta realize Warframe is not a difficult game genre and challenge itself would instantly get minimized due to how powerful Tenno arsenal has gotten and challenge will simply get turned into another farm for quick profit. That is why the latest "hard" content is about disabling your powers and taking control away from the player. Except that is not fun, is it? That just limits your arsenal and forces you to cheese the content just to get it over with. Warframe is a power fantasy ninja shooter in its core. How do you make a challenging non cheesable and also fun end game content in a power fantasy game? What I'm saying is that end game content is all great to wish for, but it is incredibly hard to actually implement because of how strong the players currently are. I hope DE comes up with something but meanwhile all we can do is enjoy the game in our best way. If you don't enjoy it, maybe you need a break. 

Aaaand, I would ask you to stop using ad hominems either direct or implied ones. You're the one with the problem currently and one complaining. Warframe is a game that is supposed to be entertainment, not your job where you're seeking a promotion. And you sound saltier than anyone else here.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

1 hour ago, zoffmode said:

So he's the guy that had a hand in creating really lackluster content then. How is that a good thing?

 

Let's think about what people do IRL for fun for a second (disregard the ethical aspect). Hunting with a bow takes a lot more skill than hunting with a rifle and can be a lot more satisfying. But then again, rifle is a lot more advanced and we have access to it so gotta use it. But hell, you know what why not take even something more efficient and use traps. Oh, now you can even use drones to help find your prey. Gotta do that too since it's a power increase.

But wait, is this fun? You had the most fun when you were using just a bow. And you hunt for fun... so what do you do?

 

"Difficulty that rewards" I honestly don't mind, but you gotta realize Warframe is not a difficult game genre and challenge itself would instantly get minimized due to how powerful Tenno arsenal has gotten and challenge will simply get turned into another farm for quick profit. That is why the latest "hard" content is about disabling your powers and taking control away from the player. Except that is not fun, is it? That just limits your arsenal and forces you to cheese the content just to get it over with. Warframe is a power fantasy ninja shooter in its core. How do you make a challenging non cheesable and also fun end game content in a power fantasy game? What I'm saying is that end game content is all great to wish for, but it is incredibly hard to actually implement because of how strong the players currently are. I hope DE comes up with something but meanwhile all we can do is enjoy the game in our best way. If you don't enjoy it, maybe you need a break. 

Aaaand, I would ask you to stop using ad hominems either direct or implied ones. You're the one with the problem currently and one complaining. Warframe is a game that is supposed to be entertainment, not your job where you're seeking a promotion. And you sound saltier than anyone else here.

Honestly the way I see it, and it's merely an opinion, Life of Rio is the only Warframe Partner I dislike. I mean, I'm not a fan of Mogamu either but sometimes he does make good points and is still a great content creator. As for Life of Rio the few times I see him doing something, it's usually instigating discord in the community, making players pick up their torches in a herd mentality to complain to DE about things that he *thinks* would be best for the game. Wanna know how the biggest part of uproar about the content drought began? That's right. It was just some noise until Rio made a video about it, and in 2 days these forums were flooded with people snapping at each other over what he posted. 

I respect him as a community member, and sometimes, even if rarely, I do agree with Rio, but there are way more content creators just as old as him, and without the need for clickbait titles and creating uproar for more audience and who do not try to forcefully change the game into what they want trough said polemic subjects.

Edited March 27, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[llls1cKb0ylll]

Same here, reached mr26 last month and still can't reach mr27 unless i master every single kdrive and moa which i don't find intresting at all so theres not much left to do other than sorties, nightwave challenges and pop some recils time to time, hell i dont even want to do eidolons anymore.

Some kind of new "strongholds" or dungenos/raids with 2 or 3 bosses where we could actually use our powers and get some new arcanes, weapons and/or cosmetics would be awesome.

[Zanchak]

I'd be happier with more things like quests tbh, even if they are high difficulty definitely not for noobs type quests (and dont make it easy for them to get to either) over more endless or repetitive missions (arbi/eso/bosses etc) Regardless of skill level they become tiresome and boring after a while. Grinding MR was always about leveling things so that really shouldnt surprise anyone.

[Teljaxx]

10 hours ago, zoffmode said:

This always comes up in video games. Hell, even in single player games. People use the most overpowered crap or even just straight up cheese all encounters and then complain "IS THERE NOTHING TO CHALLENGE ME?!?!"

It's simple. They have to design the content so even non tier whores and non cheesers can do it. So those players who want to use a fun frame or gun they enjoy can also do that content. If you want a challenge that badly, put on your MK1-Braton and your Mote amp and go solo Tridolon with Mag or something.

This is one of the main reasons that cheat codes rarely exist as a basic part of games anymore. Too many people simply turned on god mode or infinite ammo, blasted through the hardest difficulty, and then complained that the game was too boring and easy. And they always justified it by saying that the cheat codes are a part of the game, so you are clearly supposed to use them. So, thanks to these people with no self control, who don't realize that there is ever any option other than being as overpowered as possible, the rest of us no longer get cheat codes to play with, either.

I have also found that most of the people that constantly complain about things being too easy don't actually want the challenge itself. Otherwise, they would simply get creative and make their own challenges, instead of begging someone else to do it for them. No, what they really want are the rewards that are usually associated with completing a challenge set by someone else. The simple feeling a self satisfaction that comes from challenging yourself isn't enough. They want something tangible, something that they can use to show off.

 

One thing that could potentially help Warframe is if we could choose what level the enemies are in missions. This would allow people that want to truly test their mettle to go up against super high level enemies in any mission right from the beginning, instead of having to wait through hours of lower level endless missions to get there. But it would also keep lower level players from being completely excluded from those same missions. And to give some extra incentive to setting enemies to a higher level, there should be better drop rates at higher levels. So no matter the difficulty you choose, you can still potentially get the same rewards, for the most part. But if you set the difficulty as high as you can, you should get the good stuff faster and more often. And when it comes to grinding, efficiency is key, so faster rewards is a good incentive.

This would also help with things like farming Silver Grove Specters on Earth. Instead of being stuck sleepwalking through minimum level enemies just to fight one somewhat tough enemy, you could set the whole mission to a decent level to make it more interesting. There is only so much you can do to limit your power, and level 1 enemies are never going to be tough beyond the very beginning of the game.